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Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.09.16 20:25:00 - [61]
 

I can fly all four races' Dreads quite effectively. I will be selling my Moros straight away if this change goes through. Zero need for it since I have a Revelation and Nag to use.

The *only* thing that made the Moros worthwhile was it's drone bonus while out of siege. Now it's just another pile of junk, right along side the Eos and Myrm.

Suukovesta
Posted - 2009.09.16 22:14:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Ulstan
Edited by: Ulstan on 16/09/2009 19:29:56
Originally by: Geminimixer
Am training for Gallente capitals. Not happy with Moros change...Now it will be just the same as all the dreads.


I think this tells you all you need to know about the mentality of gallente pilots. Anything that brings their ship into line with the other races ships of the same class is a horrible horrible nerf!

Anyway, you're still better than the phoenix (worst dread) and arguably better than the nalfgar (also uses citadel torps). You're not as good as the revelation, but that's an issue with the reveleation, not the moros. This hasn't changed the power of a moros at all in fleet fights or POS shoots, you still get your drone bonus, just not while playing station games.


You obviously have no clue. Stop posting.

NoNah
Posted - 2009.09.16 23:04:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: xxxak
Originally by: NoNah
Originally by: xxxak
cry cry cry, cry cry cry.

Ships get nerfed all the time. EVE is about risk. If you are unhappy with a sieged dread that tanks 10000 dps and deals 1000 dps to sub caps for low sec station games... welll.. too freaking bad.


You didn't read the post, did you?


I did read the post. You obviously didnt read mine. A dread has an insane tank, especially sieged. There must be some risk involved. Currently, a Moros can play station games with literally near zero risk because nothing can kill it before it can dock. At least with the new system a fleet of 100 bs or 20 dreads could kill it before it could end its siege cycle and dock. That seems.... fair.. doesnt it?

The one problem is that a sieged dread has crap lock times, so I would support giving the Moros a boost of some sort in its ability to lock sub caps (? possible ?).

But honestly, dreads are not meant to for this crap, they are meant for cap warefare.

Get a carrier.

PPS. The Phoenix sucks 110% against sub caps and really sucks (very long missile flight time) in large cap wars (the real PURPOSE of Dreads), so until that is fixed, who cares about the moros.


So, me saying that I approve of the change, but that it needs some sort of compensation since it will now be the by far worst dread both in and out of siege - is "cry cry cry cry cry". But you saying that the nerf is fine, but it should get a compensation through for example better sensor strength is fine?

The phoenix doesn't have very long flight time, in anything but long range. and ironicly, at the same long range, it will vastly outdamage the moros. Using blasters the phoenix starts outdamaging the Moros somewhere around Thorium(13km range). Rails simply can't match the damage with any reasonable setup. The fact that hybrids will have split damagetypes and hence pretty much always take a penalty for this makes it a tad worse. The one weakness I can see with the phoenix is it's destructable dps, but looking at how the moros gets either immobile(sentry) dps or closerange(combat drones) dps which are both destructable, I'd say the phoenix is better off even there.

As for carriers, if you're still preaching towards the gallente players who dislike the changes, you're telling them they can compensate for having the worst dread by flying the worst carrier. In my humble opinion they used to balance all the gallente capital ships this way:

The Moros was crap in siege, but awesome out of siege.
The Thanatos is crap in use, but versatile in having good fitting and plenty of dronespace(getting nerfed).
The Erebus is all in all good, not as popular as the Avatar for obvious reasons, but it gets a great gangbonus about to become even more important.
The Nyx well... it gets it's looks and the fact taht most people with the relevant skills will be committed to gallente. There's no real reason to fly a nyx over any of the other motherships.

With the current devblog, gallente will maintain its pretty great titan.

Just for clarification, I don't mind them removing the drone bonus out of siege, but if they do remove the one edge it had, it SHOULD get some sort of compensation. Wether this comes in the shape of some drastic damagebonus, targeting, a tracking bonus, a tanking bonus(which obviously would be sort of useless in todays climate and being gallente) or even optimal bonus doesn't really matter. Point is it needs to get some sort of compensation if they're going to nerf an already subpar dread.

Aranis Nax
Minmatar
Minmatar United Freedom Front
The 11th Hour
Posted - 2009.09.16 23:05:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Wideen
I don't see how this is a problem.

the moros will still have the advantage over other dreads of killing smaller ships (from frigates to bs) quickly with a neigh over-powered drone bonus, now it just has to commit to the fight before doing so. That it can do so in siege is however acceptable imo
The problem — in fact, the only problem with this change — is that in siege, it will take roughly 93 years (give or take) for a Moros to lock onto a subcap…
Put your drones to assist a tackler, that way they do what the tackler does and you don't have to waste godawful amounts of time locking targets.

That said, I'll repeat a question: Why is the Moros based on Dominix anyway?
Why not base it on Megathron? damage bonus and tracking bonus. It's a siege engine firing motorcycle sized slugs. Why's it got wtfpwnage drones.

Amitious Turkey
Gallente
TarNec
Posted - 2009.09.16 23:35:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Siigari Kitawa
Seriously?!

:(

When is it going to be "Boost Gallente?"


...

Boost Gallente!

Krusten Kandis
Posted - 2009.09.17 01:40:00 - [66]
 

Edited by: Krusten Kandis on 17/09/2009 01:40:54
Originally by: Crackzilla
Originally by: xxxak

3 50% drone dmg gave Moros a broken superpower with no analogy for other races or even carriers


domi/ishtar have respectable drone bonuses. Carriers can field more than 5 drones versus outright drone bonus. So the analog did exist and the Moros was no superpower.



You are correct that in a straight up dps comparison a carrier can come close to a moros, however there are a few small details that you might not be aware of. I will, however, try to enlighten you.

Carrier, max skills, all highs filled with Drone Control Units, can field 15 drones. Please note that all high slots are filled. Please also note that these drones were all on their basic hp which made them very vulnerable to sentry guns.

Moros, max skills, can field 5 drones with a 350% damage boost on them. This equates to 17.5 drones. Please note that no high slots are used for this and are free for things like heavy neutralizers, which some moros pilots use to completely drain the cap from smaller ships so that they cannot use microwarp drives. Please also note that these drones have a 350% boost to their hp, reducing their vulnerability to sentry guns immensely.

Now, to appease the angry masses I will say that I do agree that the moros will probably need a rework of some sort, though I think a drone control range increase should do just fine.

Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
Posted - 2009.09.17 02:03:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Krusten Kandis

Carrier, max skills, all highs filled with Drone Control Units, can field 15 drones. Please note that all high slots are filled. Please also note that these drones were all on their basic hp which made them very vulnerable to sentry guns.

Moros, max skills, can field 5 drones with a 350% damage boost on them. This equates to 17.5 drones. Please note that no high slots are used for this and are free for things like heavy neutralizers, which some moros pilots use to completely drain the cap from smaller ships so that they cannot use microwarp drives. Please also note that these drones have a 350% boost to their hp, reducing their vulnerability to sentry guns immensely.


its 50% per level for a 250% bonus. Thats roughly close to a carrier with a few dcus. The carrier can remotely rep the drones while the moros is going to be out of range except for sentry drones. The moros needs the drone hp buffer because it can't effectively rep them. A carrier can hold more spare drones than can a moros.

I can't recall any major whine thread about moros solopwnmobiles station campers.

Derrios
Reikoku
IT Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.17 02:16:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Aionstar
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa
Seriously?!

:(

When is it going to be "Boost Gallente?"

Never!
Facts:
they love Amarr, oh yes, ooooh yeeaa!
they hear about Mini.. Mima... oh, that slave-race
they give Caldari DRAKE Laughing
they hate Gallente (no need to remember all that nerf-pack)

or... when 99% chars be amarr oriented

they do many nonlogical things, like smallest ammo type require more time to reload then change huge lens or same as load missile bay... they call it "ballance"



But its SO easy to hate the french amirite?LaughingLaughingLaughing

Krusten Kandis
Posted - 2009.09.17 02:20:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Crackzilla
Originally by: Krusten Kandis

Carrier, max skills, all highs filled with Drone Control Units, can field 15 drones. Please note that all high slots are filled. Please also note that these drones were all on their basic hp which made them very vulnerable to sentry guns.

Moros, max skills, can field 5 drones with a 350% damage boost on them. This equates to 17.5 drones. Please note that no high slots are used for this and are free for things like heavy neutralizers, which some moros pilots use to completely drain the cap from smaller ships so that they cannot use microwarp drives. Please also note that these drones have a 350% boost to their hp, reducing their vulnerability to sentry guns immensely.


its 50% per level for a 250% bonus. Thats roughly close to a carrier with a few dcus. The carrier can remotely rep the drones while the moros is going to be out of range except for sentry drones. The moros needs the drone hp buffer because it can't effectively rep them. A carrier can hold more spare drones than can a moros.

I can't recall any major whine thread about moros solopwnmobiles station campers.


Oh... oh my.

You have 100% base damage. You know, the damage the drones already do without any bonus? It would suck a lot of all ships had drones that did 0% damage right off the bat. Since I have the feeling you are not very good at math, I will point out that you add the bonus of 250% to the base 100% to get, yes, 350%.

Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
Posted - 2009.09.17 02:43:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Krusten Kandis
I will point out that you add the bonus of 250% to the base 100% to get, yes, 350%.


fair enough.

carriers aren't known for omg dps. Looking at the cost versus dps and a carrier/moros isn't that far from a gank bs.

Deschenus Maximus
Amarr
Digital Fury Corporation
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.09.17 03:10:00 - [71]
 

Changes are awesome. Moros was OP with bonused drones out of siege.

Traxex Khan
Shenanigans Inc.
Posted - 2009.09.17 04:07:00 - [72]
 

Edited by: Traxex Khan on 17/09/2009 04:07:43
You guys are killing me. Will someone go quote the description of the moros? It SAYS in the description that out of all the dreads, it is the one most able to "fend off smaller foes." So who cares that it's a dread and that "ZOMG IT'S A DREAD IT SHOULDN'T KILL ANYTHING SMALLER THEN A MOON RAAAAAAAAAGH." It was designed for that role. Where in eve does it say that every ship in a given class must do exactly the same things in exactly the same way? Since it's a dread it MUST shoot guns at things that are multiple Km's in length and that can't move? Last time I checked in... let's say... the BS class. Do all bs's do the same thing? Do they all excell in the same thing? Last time I checked a scorpion wasn't the same and didn't fill the same ROLE as the missle-spewing monstrosity that is the CNR. Nor did it have the ability to destroy smaller ships with drones like the Dominix. Everyone seems to be so concerned with making every class of ship do the same exact thing, and they're mistaken. Should all the battleships use guns and not be able to even touch a frigate? I'd prefer a little variety, personally. Maybe that's just me though.

THEY HAVE ROLES.

The Moros' role was to fend off smaller foes, so it was equipped with a smaller tank/gun dps as compared to, say, a Revelation. I don't see why that's so hard to understand.

Jin Entres
Malevolent Intervention
Posted - 2009.09.17 08:01:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Traxex Khan
Edited by: Traxex Khan on 17/09/2009 04:07:43
You guys are killing me. Will someone go quote the description of the moros? It SAYS in the description that out of all the dreads, it is the one most able to "fend off smaller foes." So who cares that it's a dread and that "ZOMG IT'S A DREAD IT SHOULDN'T KILL ANYTHING SMALLER THEN A MOON RAAAAAAAAAGH." It was designed for that role. Where in eve does it say that every ship in a given class must do exactly the same things in exactly the same way? Since it's a dread it MUST shoot guns at things that are multiple Km's in length and that can't move? Last time I checked in... let's say... the BS class. Do all bs's do the same thing? Do they all excell in the same thing? Last time I checked a scorpion wasn't the same and didn't fill the same ROLE as the missle-spewing monstrosity that is the CNR. Nor did it have the ability to destroy smaller ships with drones like the Dominix. Everyone seems to be so concerned with making every class of ship do the same exact thing, and they're mistaken. Should all the battleships use guns and not be able to even touch a frigate? I'd prefer a little variety, personally. Maybe that's just me though.

THEY HAVE ROLES.

The Moros' role was to fend off smaller foes, so it was equipped with a smaller tank/gun dps as compared to, say, a Revelation. I don't see why that's so hard to understand.


Sounds like an incredibly lame justification for imbalance to me. Is it not true that even after the change, Moros will still be -- by far -- most able out of all dreads to fend off smaller foes?

How convenient of you to interpret based on description that the role of a Moros -- as opposed to any other dread -- is to decimate smaller ships aswell. Variety, oh yes, a great excuse. They don't have to be balanced -- one can be overpowered but that just makes it different!

The fact that Moros had this ridiculously overpowered bonus in the first place is unfortunate since it has clearly lulled many into believing that they deserved that kind of advantage.

P.S. Do you notice the irony in how a description, to you, is more indicative of role intention than what CCP is doing? Clearly they don't know their own intentions!

Geminimixer
Posted - 2009.09.17 10:31:00 - [74]
 

Quote:
Moros will still be -- by far -- most able out of all dreads to fend off smaller foes?


See in theory it will still be good at this. But in-game the Moros has just been made redundant.

Nerfing one of Gallente's last good ships is a good way to lose players. I am nearly 100% Gallente specced with Gall frigs V, Cruiser V and BS V and the only ship that I find to be competitive is the Dominix. I now spend nearly 0 time in Gallente ships. Seriously this is not a good change.

Quote:
I think this tells you all you need to know about the mentality of gallente pilots. Anything that brings their ship into line with the other races ships of the same class is a horrible horrible nerf!


I was talking about how the Moros was unique. The only Gallente ships that are "in line" with ships of other races are the interceptors and the Dominix. Everything other ship is absolutely worthless or completely outdone. Who wants to fly Gallente? Anyone?

Tulisin Dragonflame
Posted - 2009.09.17 11:04:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Geminimixer
Quote:
Moros will still be -- by far -- most able out of all dreads to fend off smaller foes?


See in theory it will still be good at this. But in-game the Moros has just been made redundant.

Nerfing one of Gallente's last good ships is a good way to lose players. I am nearly 100% Gallente specced with Gall frigs V, Cruiser V and BS V and the only ship that I find to be competitive is the Dominix. I now spend nearly 0 time in Gallente ships. Seriously this is not a good change.

Quote:
I think this tells you all you need to know about the mentality of gallente pilots. Anything that brings their ship into line with the other races ships of the same class is a horrible horrible nerf!


I was talking about how the Moros was unique. The only Gallente ships that are "in line" with ships of other races are the interceptors and the Dominix. Everything other ship is absolutely worthless or completely outdone. Who wants to fly Gallente? Anyone?



The Myrmidon is awesome, too bad most people make it awesome by fitting it nothing like a Gallente ship. And the Iteron V is still great, right?

NoNah
Posted - 2009.09.17 12:03:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Jin Entres

Sounds like an incredibly lame justification for imbalance to me. Is it not true that even after the change, Moros will still be -- by far -- most able out of all dreads to fend off smaller foes?

How convenient of you to interpret based on description that the role of a Moros -- as opposed to any other dread -- is to decimate smaller ships aswell. Variety, oh yes, a great excuse. They don't have to be balanced -- one can be overpowered but that just makes it different!

The fact that Moros had this ridiculously overpowered bonus in the first place is unfortunate since it has clearly lulled many into believing that they deserved that kind of advantage.

P.S. Do you notice the irony in how a description, to you, is more indicative of role intention than what CCP is doing? Clearly they don't know their own intentions!


Actually, the moros is worst of them to fend of support. Here's why.

All the other dreads can deal equal damage to the moros without fielding sentry drones hitting the pos. The moros can't, the end all dps includes the use of sentry drones constnatly hammering away. This means any other dread could drop 5 heavies and leave them orbiting the dread or even send to assist an intie.

Yes, it can sacrifice it's offense, to be decent at doing what the other dreads are doing. But all of a sudden it's the worst at doing it's main role of bashing the pos and barely better at taking care of the support since the limiting factor here will be speed and application rather than survivability of the drones and damage when all the drones have caught up anyway.

Traxex Khan
Shenanigans Inc.
Posted - 2009.09.17 12:55:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Jin Entres
Originally by: Traxex Khan

...


Sounds like an incredibly lame justification for imbalance to me. Is it not true that even after the change, Moros will still be -- by far -- most able out of all dreads to fend off smaller foes?

How convenient of you to interpret based on description that the role of a Moros -- as opposed to any other dread -- is to decimate smaller ships aswell. Variety, oh yes, a great excuse. They don't have to be balanced -- one can be overpowered but that just makes it different!

The fact that Moros had this ridiculously overpowered bonus in the first place is unfortunate since it has clearly lulled many into believing that they deserved that kind of advantage.

P.S. Do you notice the irony in how a description, to you, is more indicative of role intention than what CCP is doing? Clearly they don't know their own intentions!


What i'm trying to say is that there's a reason that if you put the moros up against, let's say the revelation, in pos bashing, there's more then 1 reason that the revelation will be superior to the moros. While one is obviously the amarr FOTM nonsense, another is that the moros wasn't designed to be the top of the line pos basher. It gave up the tank/dps that the other ships have so that it could rest easy knowing that even when subcaps try to stop it, it would still be able to apply its damage to it's primary target while also fending them off.

Jin Entres
Malevolent Intervention
Posted - 2009.09.17 14:12:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Traxex Khan

What i'm trying to say is that there's a reason that if you put the moros up against, let's say the revelation, in pos bashing, there's more then 1 reason that the revelation will be superior to the moros. While one is obviously the amarr FOTM nonsense, another is that the moros wasn't designed to be the top of the line pos basher. It gave up the tank/dps that the other ships have so that it could rest easy knowing that even when subcaps try to stop it, it would still be able to apply its damage to it's primary target while also fending them off.


The most obvious advantage of a Revelation would seem to me to be range: POSes have forcefields which put even XL blasters into falloff rendering their DPS lower.

But XL blasters have more damage to begin with, and this makes them better suited against other capitals, no? Provided of course that you can get into range. This is a common problem for blasters, though, although admittedly siege mods may make it relatively more difficult to dreads than for subcaps.

So so far we have: Moros less efficient against POS, but possible advantage against other capitals. This is a usual tradeoff since the dread role is twofold (anti-structure and anti-capital) and makes sense. Though I will agree that like for blasters of all sizes, range often trumps raw damage. That's a general concern and not dread specific, though.

Ok, so what else? Revelation has an extra low which translates to extra tank. That helps with everything, obviously. What does the Moros have? Hmm an extra mid. What might that be useful against? Sensor boosting to fare better against smaller ships? Target painting to also improve everyone's damage against smaller ships?

On top of this, Moros gets the drone bonus. Notice that Revelation only gets a cap use bonus which mostly just negates the high natural cap use of lasers. And not only drone damage and hitpoints, but Moros also gets twice the dronebayExclamation This means it has more versatility; it can carry both sentries, heavy drones, small drones etc to cope with different needs and have plenty of spares, too.

So compared to Revelation, when it comes to "fending off smaller ships", Moros has at least three distinct advantages. Two of these three are still equally useful out of siege.

Comparing rails and beams, Revelation has ~20% more damage. Moros has ~20% more optimal and ~50% more falloff (AM vs MF), though. Again a tradeoff like this is pretty standard. And Moros' cap lasts twice as long, so Revelation is certainly trading off for its edge in damage.

Oh by the way, your last sentence is contradicting: "It gave up the tank/dps that the other ships have so that it could rest easy knowing that even when subcaps try to stop it, it would still be able to apply its damage to it's primary target while also fending them off."

Moros, or any dread, cannot apply its damage to its primary target without being in siege mode. And this change will not change the drone damage in siege. So either you will have to concede that it can still do what you want it to do, or admit that you want something else -- namely, that you can pwn normal ships while ignoring the actual purpose of the dread.

Considering these differences I don't see Moros being particularly or unreasonably weak. XL rail damage could indeed be improved by a little, but that's a matter of taste (it already has range advantage, afterall).

baltec1
Posted - 2009.09.17 14:22:00 - [79]
 

I am just wondering where all of this hate for the moros has suddenly come from. I have encountered more pvp Rorqual gank boats than station hugging Moros gank machines and I have not seen a sigle whine thread or any crying in game. Besides the thing is so slow to lock and move only an idiot would die to one. It has an effective tackle range of what? 15km?


Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
Posted - 2009.09.17 14:55:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Jin Entres
Moros, or any dread, cannot apply its damage to its primary target without being in siege mode.


Problem is that the drone bonus is mostly worthless in siege mode except as a bad subsitute for a 4th rail. A moros in siege isn't much of a threat to subcaps. If the bonus only applies in siege then I'd rather have no drone bonus and a nice dmg or rof gun bonus.

If the moros can only do dps in siege then a Rev or a nag is a better choice for a dread.

Lucas Schuyler
Posted - 2009.09.17 15:35:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: Krusten Kandis


Oh... oh my.

You have 100% base damage. You know, the damage the drones already do without any bonus? It would suck a lot of all ships had drones that did 0% damage right off the bat. Since I have the feeling you are not very good at math, I will point out that you add the bonus of 250% to the base 100% to get, yes, 350%.


Actually, its still 250%. The original damage is X. The bonus is 250% of X. So if X was say, 50 damage, then 250% bonus would be 125. If you say 350% then you are implying 175 damage.

Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
Posted - 2009.09.17 15:59:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: Lucas Schuyler
Actually, its still 250%.


I think he's saying that base 100% (50) + bonus 250% (125) = 350% (175). Otherwise 125 would be bonus only and not including the original 50 damage.

Otherwise level 1 would be base 50 * bonus 50% = 25 damage. A bonus probably doesn't decrease damage. So then it makes more sense that level 1 is base 50 * bonus 150% = 75.

I have the feeling that he is not very good at social skills nor explaining simple concepts to us ignorant folk.

Seriously Bored
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.09.17 16:27:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: Lucas Schuyler

Actually, its still 250%. The original damage is X. The bonus is 250% of X. So if X was say, 50 damage, then 250% bonus would be 125. If you say 350% then you are implying 175 damage.


Yeah, you've got it wrong.

By your math, if X = 50, and you give a 100% damage bonus to X, you'd end up with 50. A better way to say it would be: X = 50, X gets +250% damage. New damage would indeed be 175.

+250% Damage = 350% Damage.

Maths are awesome. Laughing

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.09.17 16:41:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Seriously Bored
Yeah, you've got it wrong.

By your math, if X = 50, and you give a 100% damage bonus to X, you'd end up with 50. A better way to say it would be: X = 50, X gets +250% damage. New damage would indeed be 175.

+250% Damage = 350% Damage.

Maths are awesome. Laughing
So is language. A 250% bonus means +250% for a total of 350%.

If X=50, a 100% bonus to X is another 50 for a total of 100.
In your example, the 100% are not a bonus, but a base modifier.

Seriously Bored
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.09.17 16:53:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: Tippia
So is language. A 250% bonus means +250% for a total of 350%.

If X=50, a 100% bonus to X is another 50 for a total of 100.
In your example, the 100% are not a bonus, but a base modifier.


Okay, words this time. Rolling Eyes

It is actually in Lucas's example where the first 100% is not a bonus. From what I understand of his post, he believed the final damage, if X = 50, should be 125, which is not the case.

Krusten Kandis's original statements were correct. But due to the fact that there are multiple ways to express a bonus of 50% damage per level, other people got confused.

Spaztick
Terminal Impact
Kairakau
Posted - 2009.09.17 16:58:00 - [86]
 

I'm not sure I understand the whines here. A Moros in siege can still do 1100 dps with 5 Ogre IIs. With Ogre IIs. What other capital can do gank battleship levels of DPS and still be able to hit something other than a flying moon?

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.09.17 17:04:00 - [87]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 17/09/2009 17:09:51
Originally by: Seriously Bored
Okay, words this time. Rolling Eyes

It is actually in Lucas's example where the first 100% is not a bonus. From what I understand of his post, he believed the final damage, if X = 50, should be 125, which is not the case.

Krusten Kandis's original statements were correct. But due to the fact that there are multiple ways to express a bonus of 50% damage per level, other people got confused.
Yes, fair enough. It's just the misuse of "bonus" that I object to.

There's really nothing anyone should be confused about since that "50% damage bonus per level" only really has one meaning — that at lvl V, you have a 250% bonus, ie 250% on top of your base damage, ie. 350% of your base damage.

…or, well… it could be interpreted in another way (as being multiplicative between skill levels), but that's never the case in EVE anyway. Wink
Originally by: Spaztick
I'm not sure I understand the whines here. A Moros in siege can still do 1100 dps with 5 Ogre IIs. With Ogre IIs. What other capital can do gank battleship levels of DPS and still be able to hit something other than a flying moon?
As mentioned, the only real problem is that in siege mode, it will take quite a while to lock on to subcaps (giving them ample opportunity to escape), and that since your max number of targets is limited as well, you'll have to acquire new targets a lot even if they don't break lock.

…of course, in reality, a lot of the whining is likely to stem from the fact that people will now have to make themselves vulnerable in order to make use of the done bonus, and can't stationcamp with impunity any more. Otherwise, they would be arguing for a buff of the in-siege damage output instead… Wink

DeFtron
Gallente
Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association
Psychotic Tendencies.
Posted - 2009.09.17 17:43:00 - [88]
 

Edited by: DeFtron on 17/09/2009 17:46:03
Originally by: NoNah
With the latest devblog, it's stated that moros is losing it's drone bonus when not in siege. Might not seem like a huge change, but... it really is, and here's why.

If you go over every single dreadthread back throughout history the consensus will be that the dreads are pretty much equal(Well, prior to the naglfar boost, the naglfar was worse, the rest on par. Since then both the phoenix and naglfar have recieved boosts), yet different. The Naglfar gets best damage, however thanks to suffering from ammoconsumtion and reloads, the revelation will still land on better damage in total. The phoenix will be on about par with the Moros for damage, however with no issues fitting weapon upgrades, an extreme range and most importantly being able to pick their damagetype, they're quickly back up there.

However... while the Moros was the obviously worst for pos-sieges and arguably worst for capital-fireworks it had one HUGE bonus. When it wasn't in siege, it could remove subcaps like no other. It was the hotdroppers wet dream, it was the end all of station games. And I can not but agree to it being to strong in this role. However, now that the out of siege role is gone, it can nothing but be compared on the equal grounds of siege, where it quite frankly comes short. Yes, the bonus is the same, but it must be used in an entirely different way. The advantage of removing tackle while tackling yourself is pretty moot.

So what I'm after with this thread is really two things. What do you think about the change as such? And maybe more importantly, if my thoughts are right in that the moros comes short in actual siege(even without really mentioning the destructable sentries) what would be the best way of compensating for this loss?

Well this change is a huge nerf for my lowsec missioning :S And im in the middle of training gal dread 5 (19d left). Moros is really good at doing many single pocket missions. Its really annoying when u get cought by a change like this in the middle of training such long rank 5 skill :S But i guess there's nothing i can do about it (if i would knew this is coming i would start training for gal carrier 5 instead).
Im not sure why some players are complaining about moros station hugging. Its not really that common and dangerous anyway.

If CCP has to change moros then i would propose:
Leave unsieged drone damage bonus but remove unsieged drone hit points bonus (and add sieged control range and optimal range bonus).
This way moros's drones will be vulnerable to station guns and easier to kill for sub capitals.
And as some already suggested dealing with smaller targets in siege is a big NO GO (max 2 locked targets and locking time).

Elapidae
Posted - 2009.09.17 17:45:00 - [89]
 

Moros:
-terrible dps beyond 60km, since cant control drones past that
-unimpressive dps inside 60km, due to being stuck with rails
-unable to anti-support due to locktime/locked target limit in siege

Only reason to choose moros before was you have no amarr sp or you felt like the out of siege fun made it worth it choosing a dread inferior at its primary role. I still have no amarr sp, but thanks to nag changes I'm switching to it instead of moros.


Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
Posted - 2009.09.17 17:47:00 - [90]
 

Edited by: Crackzilla on 17/09/2009 17:50:55
Originally by: Spaztick
I'm not sure I understand the whines here. A Moros in siege can still do 1100 dps with 5 Ogre IIs.


You won't be using ogre ii's 95% of the time. Bouncer IIs which cut into the dps. Plus you're limited to 57-60km range. I'd rather have another rail or a better bonus (rnge?) to the 3x ones we do have.

I'd rather the drone bonus cut in half out of siege and a 100% drone control range. That would make me happy.

Or as been suggested keep the dps bonus but cut the hp bonus so drones die fast to sentry guns.


Originally by: Tippia
and can't stationcamp with impunity any more. Otherwise, they would be arguing for a buff of the in-siege damage output instead… Wink


How many do you see that stationcamp? I think the problem is overstated. Most want the out of siege bonus so they can use drones against pos mods and subcaps while aligning out or waiting to enter siege.


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