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NoNah
Posted - 2009.09.15 23:21:00 - [1]
 

With the latest devblog, it's stated that moros is losing it's drone bonus when not in siege. Might not seem like a huge change, but... it really is, and here's why.

If you go over every single dreadthread back throughout history the consensus will be that the dreads are pretty much equal(Well, prior to the naglfar boost, the naglfar was worse, the rest on par. Since then both the phoenix and naglfar have recieved boosts), yet different. The Naglfar gets best damage, however thanks to suffering from ammoconsumtion and reloads, the revelation will still land on better damage in total. The phoenix will be on about par with the Moros for damage, however with no issues fitting weapon upgrades, an extreme range and most importantly being able to pick their damagetype, they're quickly back up there.

However... while the Moros was the obviously worst for pos-sieges and arguably worst for capital-fireworks it had one HUGE bonus. When it wasn't in siege, it could remove subcaps like no other. It was the hotdroppers wet dream, it was the end all of station games. And I can not but agree to it being to strong in this role. However, now that the out of siege role is gone, it can nothing but be compared on the equal grounds of siege, where it quite frankly comes short. Yes, the bonus is the same, but it must be used in an entirely different way. The advantage of removing tackle while tackling yourself is pretty moot.

So what I'm after with this thread is really two things. What do you think about the change as such? And maybe more importantly, if my thoughts are right in that the moros comes short in actual siege(even without really mentioning the destructable sentries) what would be the best way of compensating for this loss?

Davinel Lulinvega
Posted - 2009.09.15 23:45:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Davinel Lulinvega on 15/09/2009 23:46:28
I don't own a moros but this is pretty lame.
Also, even if they double titan hp the new doomsday is going to be essentially useless.

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2009.09.15 23:49:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Omara Otawan on 15/09/2009 23:49:49
Well, the station hugging moros was surely one of the lamest things in game, I'll not shed a single tear here.

About its primary strength as a sub-cap killer, that can be a valuable thing in small capital fleets, its not like providing a screen against BS fleets is worthless if you are short on numbers in a POS assault.

Gonna see how it plays out I guess.

Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
Posted - 2009.09.15 23:49:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 15/09/2009 23:49:44
The bonus outside siege mode was an aberration. It was nice while it lasted but it needed to go.

The Moros is still better than the Phoenix and the Naglfar in most tasks. Only the Revelation is better and that is mostly because of the Laser overall imbalance, not because of the ship itself.

NoNah
Posted - 2009.09.15 23:52:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Etho Demerzel

The Moros is still better than the Phoenix and the Naglfar in most tasks. Only the Revelation is better and that is mostly because of the Laser overall imbalance, not because of the ship itself.


Foudn this bit particularily interesting. Would you mind expanding a bit on this? I would have agreed back before the boosts, but now I just don't see it.

Ecky X
SniggWaffe
FREE KARTTOON NOW
Posted - 2009.09.15 23:53:00 - [6]
 

I know a few people who will be very upset, but it was a long time coming.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2009.09.15 23:54:00 - [7]
 

My cap alt flies a Moros. It's not the job of dreadnoughts to go about splatting subcapitals.

LiMu Bai
Posted - 2009.09.15 23:58:00 - [8]
 

Moros had one strenght, one role. It was able to fight small support ships like Hacs, dics etc. This role is gone...it was not that devastating anyways but it was an nice option.

All whats left now is a dread with inferior tank and dps (even with drones and guns dps is lower than Rev/Nag/phoe).
Well, in theory you can use your drones also for sieges, but practically its not really possible. Posgunners will pop your sentries (they often aim for t2 sentries). You always get bumped away from your drones, which means youll loose them. Theres also a drone control range of 60km....
There really no reason to use Moros over Rev or Nag. They do alot of solid Gundmg, without relying @ uber^-drones^^

@ station camping: Carriers are even better in this, will they also be nerfed?

MukkBarovian
Posted - 2009.09.16 00:30:00 - [9]
 

Its a big nerf to station humping. Its a big nerf if you want dreads on the field but you want to wait to commit to going siege green.

The unnerfed moros can do really bad things to ships of all sizes with its drones. It terrorizes small gourps unable to deal with dreadnoughts. Warrior IIs are sent out to eat frigates. Ogres tear through BS. Near targets are nueted. Far targets can be sniped with sentries.

No other dread can do this. Its almost impossible to hit subcaps with capitol weapons as long as the targets have some velocity. There is a degree of fairness in saying that if it wants to do bad things to people it needs to be sieged and committed to the battle.

There is still a role in smaller cap fleets for dreads that can reach out and touch smaller fleets. There is not much of a role for a sieged station humping dreadnought.

I am happy. People who want to fight have to commit a little bit to the fight. Aggression timers being the main mode of enforcement. Obviously aggression timers are a little bit lacking on something with the moros' HP. This remedies the situation.

xxxak
Caldari
Intergalactic Syndicate
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2009.09.16 00:42:00 - [10]
 

cry cry cry, cry cry cry.

Ships get nerfed all the time. EVE is about risk. If you are unhappy with a sieged dread that tanks 10000 dps and deals 1000 dps to sub caps for low sec station games... welll.. too freaking bad.

Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
Posted - 2009.09.16 00:54:00 - [11]
 

I've been on the recieving end of station hugging Moros, and its very annoying, but thats more due to docking/undocking/agression mechanics than the fault of the ship.

I find it a pity that its not even been complained about or obviously imbalanced since I've also had station hugging Nagalfars try the same trick. Its just seemingly a whim of some Devs crusade to accross the board "put Gallente DPS back into line" (and by that they mean below the line in reality).

I'm a sad panda tonight. Crying or Very sad

NoNah
Posted - 2009.09.16 01:07:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: xxxak
cry cry cry, cry cry cry.

Ships get nerfed all the time. EVE is about risk. If you are unhappy with a sieged dread that tanks 10000 dps and deals 1000 dps to sub caps for low sec station games... welll.. too freaking bad.


You didn't read the post, did you?

Davinel Lulinvega
Posted - 2009.09.16 01:07:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Davinel Lulinvega on 16/09/2009 01:09:33
Edit: oops, hurr hurr.

Ezekiel Sulastin
Gallente
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.09.16 01:11:00 - [14]
 

You won't be seeing any more station hugging Moroses because everyone interested in POS fights and cap bashing will be crosstraining the better-in-every-way Revelation ;)

Artemis Rose
Clandestine Vector
THE SPACE P0LICE
Posted - 2009.09.16 01:29:00 - [15]
 

I'd say given it a bit of a balance, as its looking to be absolutely no reason to train Gallente caps.

Have a much smaller bonus for the Dread out of siege (even just 10% per level like all other subcapitals) and increase the damage/effectiveness of hybrid turrets to make a more competitive dread in siege.

Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
Posted - 2009.09.16 01:40:00 - [16]
 


imho the ranking has changed to:
1) rev, 2) nag, 3) moros, 4) phoenix

The nag is a nice dread. The major downsides is the requirement for minm bs 5, split weapons systems, ammo usage.

Station games weren't that common or that bad. What the change has done is drop the moros so its less desirable than a rev or a nag.

With the drone bonus nerfed the moros needs a rof, range, or rep bonus. It seriously needs to be boosted to meet the nag tank/dps.

Eagle Tarquinas
Gallente
Reliables Inc
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2009.09.16 02:26:00 - [17]
 

I believe a fair compromise would be, instead of there being no bonus outside siege, their should be a 10% bonus to drone hitpoint, damage and add to the moros a role bonus: 5x drone damage in siege mode.

Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
Posted - 2009.09.16 03:01:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Eagle Tarquinas
I believe a fair compromise would be,


then bring a domi. Any nerf to the moros means that the rev is the correct dread, nag is nice, but no real point to the moros.

Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
Posted - 2009.09.16 03:30:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: NoNah
Originally by: Etho Demerzel

The Moros is still better than the Phoenix and the Naglfar in most tasks. Only the Revelation is better and that is mostly because of the Laser overall imbalance, not because of the ship itself.


Foudn this bit particularily interesting. Would you mind expanding a bit on this? I would have agreed back before the boosts, but now I just don't see it.


OK, fair enough.


The Phoenix weapon system can be speed tanked by capitals, especially in siege mode.

Additionally, although the problem has been somewhat mitigated by the recent changes to citadels HP and speed, those missiles can still be blown by smartbombs, especially by faction and officer ones, common in supercapitals. That can be easily seen when you look in any Titan killmail and see all phonixes in last place damagewise, some not even scoring a single hit.

The reasons above make it into a pos take down tool only. A good one, given, but not even the best as it is second to the Revelation in this task. For actual combat it is the worse dread by a fair margin.

The Nagilfar still have the worse tank of all 4 dreads, and the part of its damage coming from citadels suffer the same problems described above. Given that it is much better now than it was before as this amount to a much lower part of its damage, but it still makes its damage nothing spectacular, especially when you factor reload times (artillery clip size is horrible).

The Moros at least has a good tank and good reliable damage, in addition to having a good part of its damage with low sig resolution and thus able to destroy smaller targets, even if only in siege mode now. That can't save you now, but may be able to save a supercapital you are protecting, for example.

One thing that I think it should gain as compensation for this nerf is a much bigger drone bay, though, that would give it some extra flexibility.

Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
Posted - 2009.09.16 04:46:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Etho Demerzel
The Phoenix weapon system can be speed tanked by capitals, especially in siege mode.
... those missiles can still be blown by smartbombs, especially by faction and officer ones, common in supercapitals. That can be easily seen when you look in any Titan killmail and see all phonixes in last place damagewise, some not even scoring a single hit.


I'll agree that the phoenix is subpar. If something is speed tanking missiles then turret tracking is likely an issue. Unless you want to use the "sniper dread" fleet.

those missiles aren't that likely to be blown up. the real issue with titan/mothership kills is the speed in which titans pop. Put 50-60 dreads on a titan and top damage is partly whoever locks first and fires first. The flight time of missiles is the issue.

A shield tanked nag has a fairly decent tank. Nag certainly isn't the worst dread.

Geminimixer
Posted - 2009.09.16 05:24:00 - [21]
 

Am training for Gallente capitals. Not happy with Moros change. Nerfs are really ruining this game. Why do all ships have to be the same. The Moros was cool because it had the ability to pressure smaller ships. Now it will be just the same as all the dreads.

Only good gallente ships are ranis for solo and the dominix. Arazu and ishtar are also nice.

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2009.09.16 05:41:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Omara Otawan on 16/09/2009 05:48:35
Originally by: Geminimixer
The Moros was cool because it had the ability to pressure smaller ships. Now it will be just the same as all the dreads.



It still has that ability, the only change is it now has to commit to these sort of "fights".

I cant really see the nerf here, apart from stupid capital docking games. If you trained for / bought a dread for that purpose, well you had it coming.

Its combat performance wont change a bit, how people all of a sudden think its the worst dread, worthless etc is beyond me.


Edit: as for citadel torpedos, if you look at pure "gank" capital kills with 20 dreads dropped on a carrier, you will most likely see the phoenixes on top of the mail. They dont move that slow anymore, and as long as everyone gets maybe 1-2 volleys off you are doing top damage with best volley damage naturally.

Without having done a proper analysis, the reason for them to do bad damage against titans and motherships is the rather fast movement of these targets I guess, not smartbombs or the little time they need to die (if anything, popping quick would favour citadel torps in terms of damage dealt).

Siigari Kitawa
Gallente
Perditus Peregrinus
Posted - 2009.09.16 06:04:00 - [23]
 

Seriously?!

:(

When is it going to be "Boost Gallente?"

Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
Posted - 2009.09.16 06:55:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Omara Otawan
Without having done a proper analysis, the reason for them to do bad damage against titans and motherships is the rather fast movement of these targets I guess


Trige isn't used *that* often. A carrier is going to be kept moving just as titans and motherships. If anything a mothership or titan is more likely to be bumped. If you can get close to web a carrier you can get close enough to bump a supercap.

The phoenix is decent for capital fights. Not as nice as rev, nag, or moros, but certainly serviceable. None of the dreads are *that* bad. Just for the time and investment people will go after what they like versus flying anything. So there needs to be a niche or many will flock to the "right" dread.

baltec1
Posted - 2009.09.16 07:30:00 - [25]
 

*Tosses his Moros plans into the fire*

Guess its the Amarr capital line for me afterallSad

Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
Posted - 2009.09.16 07:47:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Gypsio III
My cap alt flies a Moros. It's not the job of dreadnoughts to go about splatting subcapitals.


This.

(tho I do not have an alt wiht moros)

Get a domi folks, or a navy domi when they roll out for your camping needs.

Geminimixer
Posted - 2009.09.16 09:08:00 - [27]
 

Er get a domi? What the hell is a domi going to do on a station other than get ganked...

I just think this nerfs some of the "fun" of owning a moros. Its not OP. If you are in a sub cap and a moros is undocked you just have to realize that it is a powerful ship and you need to leave or maintain transversal. Not hard..

How can they be nerfing gallente more and leaving amarr. Amarr have the best fleet ships by far. For serious pvpers minmatar and amarr are the only way to go atm. If I was 100% gallente (thank god im not) I would be spewing right now.

Aranis Nax
Minmatar
Minmatar United Freedom Front
The 11th Hour
Posted - 2009.09.16 09:15:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Aranis Nax on 16/09/2009 09:21:20
Why is/was the Moros based on the Dominix anyway? Why not the Megathron?

PS the five minute rule is ******* me off Evil or Very Mad.
(edit)
Originally by: Geminimixer
I just think this nerfs some of the "fun" of owning a moros. Its not OP. If you are in a sub cap and a moros is undocked you just have to realize that it is a powerful ship and you need to leave or maintain transversal. Not hard..

Do tell, how do you keep transversal up on 5 heavy drones that are orbiting you at 300m/s with cruiser gun tracking with 200 dps... each.

Geminimixer
Posted - 2009.09.16 09:36:00 - [29]
 

If you lose your ship to Ogre II's you are an idiot. Heavy drones are rediculously slow. Why would you be at 0 on a moros anyway..

Aionstar
Posted - 2009.09.16 10:14:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Siigari Kitawa
Seriously?!

:(

When is it going to be "Boost Gallente?"

Never!
Facts:
they love Amarr, oh yes, ooooh yeeaa!
they hear about Mini.. Mima... oh, that slave-race
they give Caldari DRAKE Laughing
they hate Gallente (no need to remember all that nerf-pack)

or... when 99% chars be amarr oriented

they do many nonlogical things, like smallest ammo type require more time to reload then change huge lens or same as load missile bay... they call it "ballance"


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