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Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
Posted - 2009.09.16 00:10:00 - [121]
 

Moros change just proves you really do hate us Gallente drone users right? Unnecessary. Crying or Very sad

Titan changes look ok, BUT I have to agree with other posters...you're now just going to get titan blobs ruining most cap fights especially if every 5 minutes a group of dreads is gone.

Why would any Titan or Supercarrier pilot risk joining a cap fight knowing if 2 enemy Titans show up after he's arrived he's insta-popped?

Sensible titan pilot will wait until he has a few titan friends to go super-pew anyone daft enough to field lone Supercaps.

Oh, and isn't it about time you let people somehow exit their Supercap without needing an alt?

Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
Posted - 2009.09.16 00:12:00 - [122]
 

Originally by: Battle Tested
As it stands right now capital armor reps and capital shield boosters hardly have any affect on a supercap....Shouldnt "supercarriers" and titans at least get 100% repair bonus to these modules? fitting cap rep mods on supercaps is like fitting small reppers on a battleship (basically useless)


This gets even more important if Titans/Moms get a HP boost. Repping 9600 armor every 22 secs or something like that today is pretty damn ****ty.

Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Biotronics Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2009.09.16 00:14:00 - [123]
 

Originally by: Kalissa
(..) cos anything less and you're gonna increase the titans survival time by minutes not the kinda time necessary for help to get to it.
If it takes more than minutes for help to get there.. the titan was.. alone?

Anyway, regarding the naming, I like 'supercarrier'. Guess I'm the only one Neutral
Nobody complained about 'super capital'. Why the hate for supercarrier?
When I hear supercarrier, I think for example about the Midway, and that was one hell of a cool ship. And it's similar to super star destroyer, another awesome ship class (later dubbed 'Star Dreadnoughts' - meh..).
For me, there has never been anything about them that really justified the term mothership.

Supercap hitpoint-tweaking will be a tough nut. But it's a good call imho. Not more tank, just more buffer.
Perhaps some rig changes (making capital effective hp a bit more predictable) would help with the balancing.

Regarding fighter-bombers, they hopefully won't be able to pop (webbed/painted) battleships all too easily.

Random Womble
Minmatar
Emo Rangers
Electric Monkey Overlords
Posted - 2009.09.16 00:15:00 - [124]
 

Edited by: Random Womble on 16/09/2009 00:25:18
While i agree with changes to the moros in general i do think that sentry drones should also be looked at (I mean overall not just in relation to the moros afterall they are meant to be the long range weapons platform for drone boats) they really need to be given a diffrent control range to their Heavy/med/light drone counterparts something in the region of 2-2.5x normal drone control range and as such a very slightly boosted optimal (especially on gardes) if this necessitates a slight damage reduction and/or tracking nerf so be it.

Kersh Marelor
Amarr
Posted - 2009.09.16 00:16:00 - [125]
 

So... motherships (I refuse to accept the lame name you came up with!) will be a bit cheaper, say it will cost 12bil instead of 15 to get one. As that ship can be killed in two volleys now (two titans on the field is not a problem) it will die fast. How is fielding that kind of ship, worth around 20bil (crappy modules by supercap standards) better idea than bringing 10 dreads? Ok, a signle pilot issue - still how will you justify taking the risk?
In my opinion either make the bomber insanely effective or give MSs insane HP/Rep boost? Or maybe make them resistant to DD in some way (not entirely resistant but in the way that could not be easily overcome by 'just' bringing in 5 titans)?
Those ships are expensive enough to get some love and epicness.

Battle Tested
Shiva
Posted - 2009.09.16 00:17:00 - [126]
 

Originally by: Vyktor Abyss
Moros change just proves you really do hate us Gallente drone users right? Unnecessary. Crying or Very sad

Titan changes look ok, BUT I have to agree with other posters...you're now just going to get titan blobs ruining most cap fights especially if every 5 minutes a group of dreads is gone.

Why would any Titan or Supercarrier pilot risk joining a cap fight knowing if 2 enemy Titans show up after he's arrived he's insta-popped?

Sensible titan pilot will wait until he has a few titan friends to go super-pew anyone daft enough to field lone Supercaps.

Oh, and isn't it about time you let people somehow exit their Supercap without needing an alt?

well consider the cost, if titans pop 5 dreads in 5 minutes, but that dread fleet pops 1 titan every 10 minutes....who wins?

Syberbolt8
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.09.16 00:19:00 - [127]
 

Originally by: Jason Edwards
Quote:
The current RoF on the super weapons is five minutes. This is because we plan to let everyone do a lot of testing on SiSi over the next several weeks. We will continue to balance based upon the results of public testing and feedback. Firing the weapon has the current effects:

* Immobility for 30 seconds.

* Jump drive non-operational for five minutes.

5 mins ok.

Quote:
The difference is that instead of ruining the day of a couple hundred people (potentially worth X billions of Battleships and HACs) with the push of a single button, you are ruining the day of one person.

Random double dd

Damage done (ISK): 7.91B - 7912.18M

For the hell of it. Lets call it 10 billion.

Random cap battle.

Damage done (ISK): 75.73B - 75730.14M

This cap battle went on from 13:50 - 14:43 1 hour or so.

So 1 titan theoretically could destroy 20 capships in that period. Lets just go with 10 caps.

Average capship costs say 2billion. So he does 20 billion in damages.

So the titan is doing twice the damage to people. Focused all in on fewer people. Those fewer people being personally hurt far worse then those losing cheapfit bs.



Keep in mind there is the chance that in that hour, they may lose that titian. so for the loss of 20 bil isk, you kill 60 bil.

But your right, that is worse then the current DD, the simple fact that 3 to 5 titans (which is becoming common) will clear the field of capitals, so the only way to fight this cost effectively is to jump all capitals out when a few titans show up and engage them with much cheaper BS's, and because of the much higher hit points you will need huge blobs of BS's to be effective.

CCP IMO your just asking for more BS blobs with this. Unless you set a limit to the times this thing can be fired on grid in an hour, this will be over powered for any alliance that has 5+ titans.

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2009.09.16 00:19:00 - [128]
 

Edited by: Trebor Daehdoow on 16/09/2009 00:39:24
Quote:
"If I have an unstoppable super weapon, I will use it as early and as often as possible instead of keeping it in reserve." - Evil Overlord Rule #40


Maybe I missed it, but here's a link to the original Evil Overlord List.

I particularly commend the attention of the devs to #12 Twisted Evil

(Not to mention #79 and #86)

Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
Spreadsheets Online
Posted - 2009.09.16 00:19:00 - [129]
 

Originally by: Hull Blaster

Would be nice for the Supercarriers to be able to dock... but they're so effin' big how would they fit in the station environment???


Um. Titans docked dont clip the walls to much. Same with motherships.
Docked Nyx
Docked Erebus

Also... Supercarrier. Nobody will move to the new name. We will continue to call it Mothership. So it will only become ever so more confusing. CNR - Caldari Navy Raven? Or right it was renamed Raven Name Issue. WTS RNI. Oh right... what the hell is a RNI.

Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
Posted - 2009.09.16 00:23:00 - [130]
 

Originally by: DigitalCommunist
*snip*

What is this cautious nonsense and how did it get in my CCP? >:E


While I disagree with most that stuff you posted, the end is spot on. I'm not sure where the innovative CCP has gone tbh.

I understand the need for capital combat tweaking, the amount of supercaps/caps has gotten ridicilous - and over time it's more likely to increase rather than the opposite. Isk will not alone hold this back. Same time, for every day the regular cap fleet grows in number, the survivability for supercaps decreases.

Am not particulary happy to see CCP try to make "superdreads" and "supercarriers".

NoNah
Posted - 2009.09.16 00:24:00 - [131]
 

Originally by: Jason Edwards

Also... Supercarrier. Nobody will move to the new name. We will continue to call it Mothership. So it will only become ever so more confusing. CNR - Caldari Navy Raven? Or right it was renamed Raven Name Issue. WTS RNI. Oh right... what the hell is a RNI.


Solution to that would be to introduce a new ship, called a mothership, with an actual role.

Oh, and +1 Moros needs atleast one strength.

speedcat
Gallente
Human Liberty Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.16 00:25:00 - [132]
 

WHEN DO YOU STOP HATING AND NERFING GALLENTE? CCP!!! asdjjkasdjlasd!!!

Really it's enough now. This was absolutely not necessary. And please fix the Blasters range finally (all classes) and fix drones (more hitpoints, no bumpage, and reconnect).

Grrrr....

speedcat

Sabien Hawat
Posted - 2009.09.16 00:28:00 - [133]
 

Alright there are two points reviewed here that have me horrified regarding the new patch.

1. Nerfing the Gallente dread when for patches now it has been CLEAR that amarr ships are the favored Dread, Hac, and arguably BS is disgusting. Are you guys that disconnected from this game we play?

2. The supercapital changes are embarassingly short sighted and will do NOTHING to correct the real issues with these ships. While I'm not certain the DD should stay in its current form these changes are foolish. Do you really think someone is going to take their 60 billion ISK hull and put it on a serving dish for half a min. to kill a single carrier or dread?

When a Titan or Mom are tackled pilots pour from all over to ensure its demise, rarely does a supercap get away once a fight has escalated to this point unless multiple additional titans are called in to DD the field of pilots trying to bring the target down. With the new changes not even this will save a tackled titan or mothership. You are ensuring that the ONLY players that will be able to use titans now are the ones that can field a dozen or more of them to obliterate anything in sight that offers a threat.

I can only hope that there will be a massive outcry from the community to change these proposed modifications or this is all about to get so much worse.

-A horrified gamer

Trent Nichols
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.16 00:31:00 - [134]
 

I'm looking forward to seeing Motherships in action post patch. We might start seeing some of the in fleet fights again.

The Moros nerf is just silly. Will a Dev please explain why a ship most people think is already balanced is being nerfed in a bit more detail than; "We just feel like nerfbatting Gallente again."

Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
Posted - 2009.09.16 00:34:00 - [135]
 

Originally by: Battle Tested
Originally by: Vyktor Abyss
Moros change just proves you really do hate us Gallente drone users right? Unnecessary. Crying or Very sad

Titan changes look ok, BUT I have to agree with other posters...you're now just going to get titan blobs ruining most cap fights especially if every 5 minutes a group of dreads is gone.

Why would any Titan or Supercarrier pilot risk joining a cap fight knowing if 2 enemy Titans show up after he's arrived he's insta-popped?

Sensible titan pilot will wait until he has a few titan friends to go super-pew anyone daft enough to field lone Supercaps.

Oh, and isn't it about time you let people somehow exit their Supercap without needing an alt?

well consider the cost, if titans pop 5 dreads in 5 minutes, but that dread fleet pops 1 titan every 10 minutes....who wins?


Except I predict a significant HP increase to Titans, and they will just have a few Triage carriers backing them up....

Maybe it'll balance itself out as more supercaps pop other supercaps reducing overall numbers, but I dunno.... I got a very bad feeling about this...

Thats no moon... Wink

DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
Posted - 2009.09.16 00:39:00 - [136]
 

Tbh, the Moros nerf is reasonable even if you don't like it. But even if it wasn't reasonable and solely intended to troll the living crap out every Gallente pilot, the whole of capital warfare is at stake.

If you're going to rage against the developer machine, focus (like some kind of super focused laser, if you will) at the official inaguration of supercapitals into the common internet space boat category where they fail at delivering on their original concept so manificently as to wipe all memory of it.

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.09.16 00:41:00 - [137]
 

Edited by: Weaselior on 16/09/2009 00:45:01
Originally by: CCP Abathur

Yeah... well... *nerf bat* Twisted Evil

That being said, I'll take another look at their comparative damage output in the next few weeks.


That would be nice considering you just took away the one thing that made them Not A Terrible Dread.

Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Tbh, the Moros nerf is reasonable even if you don't like it. But even if it wasn't reasonable and solely intended to troll the living crap out every Gallente pilot, the whole of capital warfare is at stake.

If you're going to rage against the developer machine, focus (like some kind of super focused laser, if you will) at the official inaguration of supercapitals into the common internet space boat category where they fail at delivering on their original concept so manificently as to wipe all memory of it.


The removal of the Moros offensive capability is reasonable, however it was the only thing keeping the Moros competitive since it had some other additional use. With it gone, it needs to be buffed so it's not the new Nafalgar.

Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2009.09.16 00:41:00 - [138]
 

Originally by: Sybilla Prior
About the Titan's single-target DD...
The effect is basically the same as a blob assigning a primary target: loads of damage onto a single target. But then, losing a couple of ships in your blob isn't going to decrease it's damage output by a huge amount, yet killing the titan will decrease the damage output to zero. So why should a fleet choose a titan over a conventional blob when both do the same thing but a blob is more resiliant?

The blob is of course going to stay home twiddling thumbs...

Soleil Fournier
StarFleet Enterprises
Systematic-Chaos
Posted - 2009.09.16 00:43:00 - [139]
 

Edited by: Soleil Fournier on 16/09/2009 00:51:32

I'm sorry, no carrier pilot is going to enter "suicide" mode AKA triage during a fleet fight. They don't now, they won't post patch. Triage is suicide for carrier pilots because they cannot be repped by others and they'll melt in 30 seconds flat to even a small number of dreads.

Relying on the spider tank is one of the reasons motherships have not been used. It's ineffective for a juicy target of that nature because dreads still melt right through it.

A significant self repping bonus is needed or T2 capital reppers. I don't think hitpoint increase is enough to fix that problem, it's a start.

Xorth Adimus
Caldari
Blackwater USA Inc.
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2009.09.16 00:47:00 - [140]
 

'Dreads will remain unchanged with one small exception - the Moros will only receive its drone damage bonus if it is in siege mode.'

Nice.. I note I am not the first to be annoyed by this.

So out of seige:
The Moros will receive no drone damage bonus with underpowered rails or unusable range blasters.

In that case out of seige:
The Amarr dread should have its damage range and tracking reduced?
The Caldari dread should have its range reduced?
The Naglifar will be untouched because it is still screwed and is the nerf standard all dreads will be reduced too?

Flying a gimped jumpable weapon platform is too much fun as they can be used out of seige for killing stuff that isn't a pos.

OMG! Shocked

Lets make them use that oh I wanna die and lock nothing for 2 years/track nothing/ pos mode as the only possible way to use the ship. Yay more sitting about in an inflexable pos bashing mobile prison hoping you don't get dropped! Go game content go just what I wanted!

hahahaha Rolling Eyes

Add/fix features don't nerf them ffsExclamation

I actually have no problem with all dreads getting unsieged drone bonuses or something else useful in a fleet situation, especially the poor Naglifar.

Remember a Dread isn't just for POSs.. it's for WTF BBQs with big guns

LiMu Bai
Posted - 2009.09.16 00:47:00 - [141]
 

Hmm this dronedmg of the Moros is a common ship/skill bonus. Just a point. Since when siege mode is required for applying a shipbonus? For all other vessels boni are permanent, why an exception for a Moros...its just not fair OO. I vote for all other Dreads boni also require an active siege module Evil or Very Mad

Lucas Tigh
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.09.16 00:51:00 - [142]
 

Originally by: Trent Nichols
The Moros nerf is just silly. Will a Dev please explain why a ship most people think is already balanced is being nerfed in a bit more detail than; "We just feel like nerfbatting Gallente again."

CCP: "We just feel like nerfbatting Gallente again."

DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
Posted - 2009.09.16 00:52:00 - [143]
 

Originally by: Weaselior
The removal of the Moros offensive capability is reasonable, however it was the only thing keeping the Moros competitive since it had some other additional use. With it gone, it needs to be buffed so it's not the new Nafalgar.


The Moros is plenty competitive as a Dreadnaught without having the ability to facereap small stuff out of siege mode. If the Moros sucks after Dominion, it'll be overall game changes in combination with existing suckitude and not because the idiots in Oueletta can't get any kills.

Adam C
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.09.16 00:53:00 - [144]
 

A very disappointing read. No creativity, just timidness and uncertainty. Where is the quality control coming in how did this get to a blog?


1,a) I like doomsdays b) I dont like the number of titans being able to doomsday. = increase the expense (isk, time, logistics) of dd's


2) destroying a cap ship with one shot maybe going from griefing 200 to 1, but its still silly. should be 70% dmg or something destorying cap ship with one shot is a solo pwn mobile. Alas the immobility with the proliferation of dreads and titans immobility of 5 minutes will deter alot of people. You can't use that as a pre-nerf to distinguish correct usage of new dd's.


Titans are giant stations. Let them anchor into a deathstar type pos. Maybe deploy remote vulnerable shielding to your fleet.

I aint doing your job for you, do better this is strange.

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.09.16 00:55:00 - [145]
 

Edited by: Weaselior on 16/09/2009 00:57:17
man I was too polite seleene you ****ing idiot

lets take the worst dread, for the most-nerfed race, and nerf it

rather than looking at the huge problems with it and drone/blaster ships in general lets just be the biggest idiots ever

at least it's only 70 days to respec to a revelation

Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Originally by: Weaselior
The removal of the Moros offensive capability is reasonable, however it was the only thing keeping the Moros competitive since it had some other additional use. With it gone, it needs to be buffed so it's not the new Nafalgar.


The Moros is plenty competitive as a Dreadnaught without having the ability to facereap small stuff out of siege mode. If the Moros sucks after Dominion, it'll be overall game changes in combination with existing suckitude and not because the idiots in Oueletta can't get any kills.


no, it's the worst dread by far, which was only made up for by having another use; if you take that use away that is papering over the bad decisions you made before then you need to correct those bad decisions

Alekanderu
Posted - 2009.09.16 00:58:00 - [146]
 

Edited by: Alekanderu on 16/09/2009 00:58:53
Originally by: CCP Abathur
Yeah... well... *nerf bat* Twisted Evil

That being said, I'll take another look at their comparative damage output in the next few weeks.


it's ok i did it for you!

comparing revelation to moros, using all level 5 char:

3x long range capital turrets + siege module
3x heat sink II/MFS II
t1 close range (AM/multifreq) and long range (lead/infrared) ammo

Revelation in siege, no drones: 4083 dps with Multifreq, 2382 with Infrared
Moros in siege, no drones: 3302 dps with AM, 2202 with Lead

Revelation in siege, sentry drones (Bouncer II): 4346 dps with Multifreq, 2382 with Infrared (since sentries can't hit at that range)
Moros in siege, sentry drones (Bouncer II): 4221 dps with AM, 2202 with Lead (see above)

As we see, a Moros without its drones is massively outdamaged at close range, and is still outdamaged at long range despite being able to use a higher damage ammo thanks to the range advantage of railguns vs dual giga beams. Using sentry drones in siege (which is by far the most common scenario; using non-sentry drones while sieged is extremely rare) the Moros is still outdamaged by the Revelation at close range, although not by as much. Its damage at long range is unchanged, since its drones cannot attack that far anyway. Thus, in siege, the Revelation will always outdamage the Moros, even when the Moros has to rely on a far inferior method of delivering a large part of its damage, ie drones. Add to this the fact that a Revelation has a better tank and does not use ammo or need to reload, and anyone will see that the ONLY situation in which a Moros is currently more useful than a Revelation is when it is out of siege. Removing that advantage will make the Moros vastly inferior to the Revelation in every single way.

In fact, the Moros as it stands right now is the worst dread for most scenarios apart from fighting subcaps OOS - it could actually use a buff. Preferably this would be a huge increase in its drone control range and a bonus to sentry drone optimal range so that it can actually use sentry drones beyond 50ish km - perhaps this bonus could be tied to sieging. It certainly does not in any way need a nerf. If, however, you are adamant on removing its unsieged drone bonus, then buff its gun damage instead.

As an aside, note that I am not comparing close range guns, since they have an incredibly niche role (mostly limited to suicide ganking jump freighters and the like on a pos) and are fundamentally inferior when it comes to utility compared to long range guns; using the performance of siege blasters/pulses would be like comparing battleships based on how well they perform as suicide smartbombers.

DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
Posted - 2009.09.16 01:02:00 - [147]
 

Originally by: Weaselior
no, it's the worst dread by far, which was only made up for by having another use; if you take that use away that is papering over the bad decisions you made before then you need to correct those bad decisions


Well, I don't agree on the principle that it does direct damage at long range. Dread fights have only gotten bigger, and will only continue to get bigger. Moros is competitive for the same reason that a Megathron is competitive in fleet battles and a Raven or Typhoon are not.

They pimped the Naglrofl quite well recently, but its still Revelation > Moros >>>> everything else if you get into a big brawl. Maybe at pure POS siege where you don't get jumped does overall DPS mean anything.

Lucas Tigh
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.09.16 01:06:00 - [148]
 

Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Originally by: Weaselior
no, it's the worst dread by far, which was only made up for by having another use; if you take that use away that is papering over the bad decisions you made before then you need to correct those bad decisions


Well, I don't agree on the principle that it does direct damage at long range. Dread fights have only gotten bigger, and will only continue to get bigger. Moros is competitive for the same reason that a Megathron is competitive in fleet battles and a Raven or Typhoon are not.

They pimped the Naglrofl quite well recently, but its still Revelation > Moros >>>> everything else if you get into a big brawl. Maybe at pure POS siege where you don't get jumped does overall DPS mean anything.

Hello,

Please come back to this thread when you know what you're talking about.

Love,
Everyone

Korinn
Habitual Euthanasia
Dystopia Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.16 01:09:00 - [149]
 

Make moros drone bonus apply only in siege, but make siege double drone control range and sentry optimal range.

Bouncers to 120km? Yes please.

Korinn
Habitual Euthanasia
Dystopia Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.16 01:14:00 - [150]
 

Edited by: Korinn on 16/09/2009 01:25:32
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Originally by: Weaselior
no, it's the worst dread by far, which was only made up for by having another use; if you take that use away that is papering over the bad decisions you made before then you need to correct those bad decisions


Well, I don't agree on the principle that it does direct damage at long range. Dread fights have only gotten bigger, and will only continue to get bigger. Moros is competitive for the same reason that a Megathron is competitive in fleet battles and a Raven or Typhoon are not.

They pimped the Naglrofl quite well recently, but its still Revelation > Moros >>>> everything else if you get into a big brawl. Maybe at pure POS siege where you don't get jumped does overall DPS mean anything.


You realise the naglrofl with its 2 guns does the same dps as a moros at 200km with 3, right?

And at under 60km it does exactly the same damage as a rev but double the alpha, right, while not using any cap and having a 13kdps tank?

Yeah naglfar is what we should be BOOSTING the moros to, not the other way round.

e: The fact the moros gets a completely **** drone bonus and STILL gets outdamaged by both the rev and the naglfar inside drone control range is BS and just shows how much XL rails suck, I can understand the nerf to the bonus only working in siege but all it does is make the moros worse which it didn't need to be. Balance it with a boost to something else, somehow (maybe let it use a couple of fighter bombers, or give it better drone control range / optimal / whatever when in siege).


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