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Serj Darek
Posted - 2009.09.16 17:28:00 - [361]
 

Originally by: Crackzilla
Originally by: Serj Darek
can't you take back control of your game?




Problem is it takes a game designer with vision. Someone that plays the game nearly constantly. Even then the players will be aware of certain issues because it affects them more.

The real issue is that ccp waits too long to address these issues. Issues like this, nanos, bpos, etc should have been all addressed 6 months from when everyone knew there was a problem.

As it stands if you find an advantage it's a moral imperative to exploit it for the next 3 years until patched. If you don't exploit it then the problem won't be addressed.


I have always loved the sandbox experience of Eve, but changing the sandbox because people threadnaught has always agitated me.

Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
Posted - 2009.09.16 17:36:00 - [362]
 

Originally by: Serj Darek
Originally by: Crackzilla
Originally by: Serj Darek
can't you take back control of your game?




Problem is it takes a game designer with vision. Someone that plays the game nearly constantly. Even then the players will be aware of certain issues because it affects them more.

The real issue is that ccp waits too long to address these issues. Issues like this, nanos, bpos, etc should have been all addressed 6 months from when everyone knew there was a problem.

As it stands if you find an advantage it's a moral imperative to exploit it for the next 3 years until patched. If you don't exploit it then the problem won't be addressed.


I have always loved the sandbox experience of Eve, but changing the sandbox because people threadnaught has always agitated me.


You can prove that CCP change things because of threadnaughts? If you can, then I'll make sure to launch a few myself in the future to get my will through. *rub hands*. Razz

Vorononv Circut
The Maverick Navy
IT Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.16 17:37:00 - [363]
 

Will titans get a bigger drone bay now that they're supposed to stay around and fight?

Also, I know you've responded to the Moros whine already, but I would really like to see sentry drones move towards you (maybe only 10m/s) when you recall them. It would allow you to hit the moros w/ a support nerfbat (is that really necessary?!?) and still help it out a bit while in siege.

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2009.09.16 17:39:00 - [364]
 

Just thinking some evil thoughts....

Make the titan weapon do some insane amount of damage. When it hits a ship, it picks shields, weapons or structure (% chances depending on the race) and rips off 50-95% of whatever's there. Then any leftover damage gets chained onto a nearby ship until it's all used up. Think of it as a giant pinball of pain bouncing through the grid.

Thus, the doomsday becomes a weapon of *chaos*, not destruction. DD's don't destroy ships, they cripple them. They radically change the tactical situation. All hell breaks loose. The fecal matter hits the rotary impeller.

For added giggles, have a small chance of the damage chaining onto a blue. Have this chance increase as the reds get more and more eviscerated by the DD (or multiple DDs).

Needless to say, ultimate comedy value is ensured when the DD bounces back onto the Titan. Twisted Evil


CONVlCTED
Posted - 2009.09.16 17:41:00 - [365]
 

Originally by: DigitalCommunist
..stuff... make titans BIG ...stuff...


that would be so awesome. though i doubt convincing ccp to do something drastic like this is pretty much impossible. But i fully support your idea for what its worth :)

Hull Blaster
Gallente
Missions Mining and Mayhem
Cult of War
Posted - 2009.09.16 17:51:00 - [366]
 

Is it me, or do you guys see this new focused DD becoming a tool for putting POS's into reinforced in super double time? Imagine it if you could just drop 4 or 5 Titan's onto the grip next to an enemy POS... boom boom boom boom jump out. POS is stuffed before anyone can even lift a finger.

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2009.09.16 17:52:00 - [367]
 

Originally by: CCP Abathur

If you are on grid without proper support, then you probably didn't want that Titan anyway.



Then let them dock, mommies too.

Serj Darek
Posted - 2009.09.16 17:56:00 - [368]
 

Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: CCP Abathur

If you are on grid without proper support, then you probably didn't want that Titan anyway.



Then let them dock, mommies too.


I agree they should be able to dock. All of the people that have Moms and Titans should be able to dock them until the Dominion changes are reversed due to idiocy. :)



Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
Posted - 2009.09.16 17:57:00 - [369]
 

Originally by: Vorononv Circut
like to see sentry drones move towards you (maybe only 10m/s) when you recall them.


I thought they already did that at something like 1m/s. Problem is you warp in, get bumped, tossed out drones, start shooting. By the time you coast to a halt the drones are stuffed and too far for a recall by align/warp out time.

Better to abandon the drones then to spend a full siege cycle with them slowly inching back for a recall.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.09.16 17:59:00 - [370]
 

Well, eveyone and his brother is chiming in on the balancing issue's associated with this new role and weapon system for the Titans, so I'm just going to throw this out there.

The broad strokes:

Have the new Super Weapon tied directly to the Titans cap to determine damage and ROF.

The details:

The Super Weapon can not be fired unless the Titan attains a very high amount of cap.
The Super Weapon always drains the Titans cap completely.
The Super Weapon can do extra damage if the cap level is higher than the minimum amount needed to fire the weapon. In other words, the Super Weapon by design channels all avaliable cap into the blast.

This opens up a huge number of decisions the Titan pilot must make in fittings and tactics, as well as forces a cap fleet commander to make some hard choices when determining the composition of the rest of the cap fleet, such as:

Does the Titan pilot fit for maximum capacitor amount?
Does the Titan pilot fit for maximum cap recharge?
Does the Titan pilot devote more of his fit to tank and depend on his supporting caps to feed him cap?
If under heavy fire should the Titan pilot spend his cap on his tank (requiring a longer time to be able to build up to fire again), or should he hope his buffer and support fleet can sustain him and fire his weapon more often?
Does the Titan pilot fire as soon as he has just enough cap and pop a dread, or should he wait and build up a bit more and try to put some serious hurt on that enemy Titan or Super Carrier?
Should the supporting caps funnel cap at a normal rate to the Titan and attack at full strength themselves, or should Triage capable caps enter that mode to boost the Titans cap/tank more quickly at the cost of most of their own offensive capability?

If this were done, I would then seriously consider the boost to a Titans survivability come in the form of a bonus to repair time rather than repair amount. Yes, the Titan can use his reps to repair damage much more quickly than other caps but that also chews through a lot of cap (which has become his most valuable commodity).

Just a thought.

Steve Thomas
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.09.16 18:01:00 - [371]
 

Originally by: CCP Abathur
For current Carriers, there's no plans for that at this time. However, in a perfect world all capital ships would be modular like the Strategic Cruisers and you would be able to customize things much more. I'd much rather see us do something like this than try to add to current Carrier's plethora of available options. Smile
GREAT we still cant get T3 cruiser production up to decent levels yet and already these guys are talking about T3 Supercaps! SHESH!
Quote:


There's no solid plans for it at this time, but the concept isn't going away.



Vorononv Circut
The Maverick Navy
IT Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.16 18:17:00 - [372]
 

Originally by: Crackzilla
Originally by: Vorononv Circut
like to see sentry drones move towards you (maybe only 10m/s) when you recall them.


I thought they already did that at something like 1m/s. Problem is you warp in, get bumped, tossed out drones, start shooting. By the time you coast to a halt the drones are stuffed and too far for a recall by align/warp out time.

Better to abandon the drones then to spend a full siege cycle with them slowly inching back for a recall.


AFAIK, they don't actually move towards you that fast. They 'pulse' on and off between 1m/s and zero. Also, I believe they drift towards your target at that speed. It's a problem in BS gangs when you're point-blank on a shield and sentry drones slowly migrate to inside the forcefield and lose their lock. This might also account for some of the problems in being unable to scoop after a cap fight. But I digress. If they came towards you at some reasonable speed everything would be fine. Also note that 10m/s is enough to help out, but not game-breaking. At that speed it would still take over a minute and a half to return if you moved 1km away. It mostly helps you recall when they spawn outside your dock range or you get bumped away.

Mioelnir
Minmatar
Cataclysm Enterprises
Ev0ke
Posted - 2009.09.16 18:25:00 - [373]
 

Edited by: Mioelnir on 16/09/2009 18:28:42
Originally by: CCP Abathur
Originally by: Battle Tested
As it stands right now capital armor reps and capital shield boosters hardly have any affect on a supercap....Shouldnt "supercarriers" and titans at least get 100% repair bonus to these modules? fitting cap rep mods on supercaps is like fitting small reppers on a battleship (basically useless)


We've had a lot of back and forth on this one and it's not completely out the window. However, the question is, aside from just boosting the repair rate or creating new ones, just how much DPS should a supercap be able to solo tank? This is a very subjective and situational argument because one thing we do not want to see is Supercarriers and Titans able to do just dominate a battlefield on their own. Ships such as these should require teamwork and the support of other classes to be utilized to their full potential.

I've pitched this idea in Features & Ideas before, but it sunk through the pages rather quickly.
Tech 2 Capital repair modules don't necessarily need simply more repair rate. 5% or maybe even 0% would suffice. Instead, make them vastly more cap efficient. This would free up slots, maybe for better resists (better fleet supportable), maybe for more interesting fits containing modules you don't necessarily expect on a capital.
Reducing the need for massive Cap Recharger II blobs on them can only be a good thing.

The hitpoint boost was already covered. Another nice thing would be a static role bonus of 900% to module HP of either low or med slots, depending on the supercapital.
The 1min 30seconds you can get out of an overloaded active tank are fine for sub-capitals and maybe normal capitals. If your active tanking BS survives these 90 seconds, it was already one heck of a fight. Fights involving supercaps (should) take a bit longer. There is also a strong possibility of a tiny bit more than 20 people on grid, making "90 seconds till my tank burns out" vs "module activation delay" quite a gamble.

Hel change:
Err, now the former powerhouse of remote repair, which noone skilled/bought that wasn't into that type of fleet activity, is going to become the one supercarrier without remote repair bonus? Huh? Or do you only mean the amount bonus, leaving the range bonus as it is?

Moros change:
Good. You may even feel free to be so evil and let the Moros crowd wait as long as the Naglfar crowd waited for their boost, considering they like to compare it to the Nagl so much. I won't mind.

McDaddy Pimp
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.09.16 18:36:00 - [374]
 

some name suggestions for the new mothership

Heavy Carrier
Assault Carrier
Fleet Carrier
Skirmish Carrier
Capital Destroyer

Wink





Kassasis Dakkstromri
Caldari
Medhacks
Posted - 2009.09.16 18:37:00 - [375]
 

Like the changes...

Would be great to see some type of explosion radius effect from the Beam - like a focused AOE so there is a splash effect to drones/ships near (and along the trajectory) of the target.

Think Classic Anime Spaceship "Main Gun" -- always epic always cool


The Yzzerman
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2009.09.16 18:37:00 - [376]
 

DONT NERF MOROS ; DAMMIT

Georn
VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD
Strategic Operations Brigade
Posted - 2009.09.16 18:37:00 - [377]
 

I dislike the Moros Nerf.

At least give him the usual Gallente 10% Bonus to Drones while out of siege, which is increased to 50% in siege.
Still bad.. but not as terrible as removing the dronebonus completely to siege modus.



Korinn
Habitual Euthanasia
Dystopia Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.16 18:38:00 - [378]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1

The broad strokes:

Have the new Super Weapon tied directly to the Titans cap to determine damage and ROF.

The details:

The Super Weapon can not be fired unless the Titan attains a very high amount of cap.
The Super Weapon always drains the Titans cap completely.
The Super Weapon can do extra damage if the cap level is higher than the minimum amount needed to fire the weapon. In other words, the Super Weapon by design channels all avaliable cap into the blast.



This is a really bad idea purely because it would allow cap transferred titans / dumb full recharge fits that gain you full cap in under 10 seconds to kill 6 caps per minute (assuming you can lock them fast enough) - it's cool having its determined ROF linked to how much cap you can give it (so having more ships cap transferring it causes more damage - reminds me of the gorg siege laser in nexus! Embarassed), BUT, it needs to have an inbuilt limit to its' ROF so things don't get stupid.

Say... under normal circumstances 1 shot every 10 minutes based on each titans' default cap recharge with max skills, 1 shot every 5 minutes with a couple of cap rechargers and then a MAXIMUM of 1 shot every 2 minutes given the titan has enough cap to fire that fast (transfers).

Valator Uel
Caldari
Mercenaries of Andosia
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.09.16 18:40:00 - [379]
 

Originally by: McDaddy Pimp
some name suggestions for the new mothership

Heavy Carrier
Assault Carrier
Fleet Carrier
Skirmish Carrier
Capital Destroyer



In colour for better emphesis

CCP Abathur


C C P
C C P Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.16 18:40:00 - [380]
 

FYI, nearly all of these changes will be hitting the test server tomorrow. We are also planning some special events very soon that will allow people a chance to test things out directly.

Originally by: Vile rat
While you're at it take another look at drone scoop range or at least give sentry drones a little engine or something. You still routinely can't scoop them after siege due to beyond 2500 deploy range or even simple bumping.


Yes, we can look into this.

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Since I fully expect the mention of other types of DD to mean that you are working on a bouncy-beam-of-delight to wipe out sub-capitals?


We can actually do several very cool things and plan to iterate on the super weapon concept in the future. However, as stated in the blog, super weapons will be mutually exclusive. There is also nothing that says future Titan abilities will always be offensive in nature.

Originally by: Mioelnir
Hel change:
Err, now the former powerhouse of remote repair, which noone skilled/bought that wasn't into that type of fleet activity, is going to become the one supercarrier without remote repair bonus? Huh? Or do you only mean the amount bonus, leaving the range bonus as it is?


Range is the same.

shialata
Posted - 2009.09.16 18:45:00 - [381]
 

Originally by: Soleil Fournier
Edited by: Soleil Fournier on 15/09/2009 23:31:17

I agree with a previous poster:

Putting 2+ titans in a system will be a big problem with this design. Your 1 titan won't be able to DD a supercap to death, but that titan buddy right behind him lands the finishing blow 2.45 seconds later. People won't be willing to risk putting their super caps on the field with that type of scenerio.

It just gets worse when there's 4,5,6 titans in the same system, but this design would encourage that type of titan blobbing. It's like Neuclear weapons....mutually assured destruction keeps fighting from happening...but we want to encourage fighting, not have a cold war situation, right?

There needs to be some type of limiter on super cap blobbing.


Ok if this has already been mentioned then apologies, but surely a limit on titans per system could help with this one after all they are ships that are so massive that we could say they disrupt other titans jump drives if more than a set number are in system this would also encourage the concept of a balanced fleet rather than the titan blob that we all know will happen, especially with the hitpoint bonus because no-one wants a set number of titans insta-popping their way through a capital fleet whilst still tanking the remainder of the fleet thats stuck in siege and unable to get away.

Viqer Fell
Minmatar
RETRIBUTIONS.
Legion of The Damned.
Posted - 2009.09.16 18:52:00 - [382]
 

Yes I know this will sound whiny Zymurgist but What is the point of showing us the nice shiny gfx for the fighter bomber when the camera is consistently "broken" and refuses to let you zoom in when looking at current fighters depending on your ship size.

If I am in my Carrier and launch fighters and click look at one of them I can only zoom in as far as if I was looking at my own carrier. Hence all I see is a cruddy little "x" flying about me.

Unless that is you are telling us you've sorted that little irritating feature out ;P

Overall though and tongue in cheek whinges apart these sound like good changes and I am eager to see how they pan out in reality on TQ

Serj Darek
Posted - 2009.09.16 19:01:00 - [383]
 

Originally by: CCP Abathur
....



Are you going to allow docking of super-capitals post-domi?



Mioelnir
Minmatar
Cataclysm Enterprises
Ev0ke
Posted - 2009.09.16 19:02:00 - [384]
 

Originally by: Viqer Fell
If I am in my Carrier and launch fighters and click look at one of them I can only zoom in as far as if I was looking at my own carrier. Hence all I see is a cruddy little "x" flying about me.


That sounds like you have disabled "Drone Models" as a GFX effect.
This includes Fighters and NPC Rogue Drones.

Trent Nichols
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.16 19:05:00 - [385]
 

Originally by: CCP Abathur


We're well aware of the differences. The issue is that the Moros was doing an average of three times the out of siege damage over the other dreads. A max skilled Moros does over 1100 DPS with 5x Ogre II's and over 900 DPS with 5x Bouncer II's. This is Carrier level damage from regular drones. A Dread's primary damage should come from its guns and the drone bonus should be just that, a bonus, not a requirement to achieve some sort of parity with other dreads.

As I said at the start, we have time and are paying attention. We'll be looking at this in the coming weeks and will work to make sure the Moros isn't relegated to the bottom of the class.




From its description I thought that was the idea behind the Moros. At this rate, you might as well just have one dread for all four races, that way you don't have to put effort into that pesky balancing thing. Its not like Eve players like variety or anything... right?

Zastrow J
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.09.16 19:16:00 - [386]
 

Supercarriers as a name didn't bother me but if I had to suggest alterntives I'd rename existing carriers "Light Carriers" and motherships "Heavy Carriers"

Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2009.09.16 19:20:00 - [387]
 

Originally by: CCP Abathur
FYI, nearly all of these changes will be hitting the test server tomorrow. We are also planning some special events very soon that will allow people a chance to test things out directly.


THAT!!

I love the 'new' approach with early and open-ended testing/iterating/feedback from the players.

Very awesome.

Avernus
Gallente
Paragon Fury
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2009.09.16 19:22:00 - [388]
 

Edited by: Avernus on 16/09/2009 19:44:41
In regards to the Moros (and other dreads),

When I left Eve several months ago for a break, I did a mini-rant, a part of which I'm reminded of now. (I'm still not in-game)

When one ship is over powered, don't nerf it. Boost the other ones.

The Moros is an interesting ship, because of it's drones outside of siege. Don't trash that, make the other dreads more interesting in their own ways.

Simple philosophy really.

Edit; take the phoenix for example, out of siege the citadel torps strike for AOE damage on impact like a smartbomb. You want to break up blobs... there you go. It has the obvious disadvantages built in with the speed of the torps, people can see it coming, self explanatory.

Hell, while we're at it, why not model the revision of the other dreads on what the Moros alone currently does well - kills stuff outside of siege.

Stop nerfing! Start improving the other ships instead.

Shadowsword
The Rough Riders
Ares Protectiva
Posted - 2009.09.16 19:38:00 - [389]
 

Originally by: CCP Abathur
FYI, nearly all of these changes will be hitting the test server tomorrow. We are also planning some special events very soon that will allow people a chance to test things out directly.




Wow, that's fast. And leaving two or three months to test things out is nice, too.


I'm concerned about titans used en-masse, however. Right now, if you want to fight a pack of 10 titans, you need loads of dictors and HID, and a few dozen dreads, but if you manage to get the jump on them, odds are that you'll kill at least one or two. You'll lose lots of tacklers, but it doesn't require insanely big fleets. Now, with those changes, that group of 10 titans can probably kill 10 dreads nearly instantly, then kill some more dreads with XL guns, then another 9-10 dreads, and so on. There's not going to be that many ships that can both inflict signifiant dps and get under the tracking of XL guns. Aside from HAS, I don't see any. A large group of titans might become even less dependant of support that right now.



By the way, since tools are put in place to destroy more easily big ships, can we hope to see in the future something to bridge the gap between battleships and dreads? After years or using the same handfull of battleships as the only choices for big, tough long range platforms, there's a need for some new content here.

Crexa
Star Mandate
Posted - 2009.09.16 19:44:00 - [390]
 

Not sure this has been asked already but, in regards to the MOMs. Since your discussing the removal of the clone bays, will they now be able to dock in stations? Or will the alt continue to remain trapped in the ship? Its seriously a pain to train a character up, only to have them "chained" to a ship that sees action only occasionally.

Some consideration to this issue, and I think a bit towards the titan pilot as well. As we all know who is and isn't a titan pilot and have them in our address book to see when they are logged on. Would be nice to switch pilots and, "oh what a surprise, it wasn't pilot Micky Moose as you expected evil enemies of ours! Muhahahaha!!!"


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