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Soldur
Hellion Hounds
Posted - 2009.09.16 15:24:00 - [331]
 

Edited by: Soldur on 16/09/2009 15:30:34
im just glad i can fly every capital ship so when one gets nerfed i just switch over to another.

Edit I cant wait to see the major powers using 20 titans to insta pop others titans with the mega beams

DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
Posted - 2009.09.16 15:30:00 - [332]
 

Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
DC, you're insane if you think that any worthwhile object in the game will ever be limited to a handful. Any game that's afflicted by Serious Business Syndrome has to be designed with one central rule in mind - hardcore players will do anything it takes to win. Spend 23 hours a day onlining POSes? Sure, I can sleep over downtime. Spend 4000 man-hours mining minerals for a Titan? Why not? If it helps someone win at Eve, they'll do it, and be damned to their social life, sleep habits, or overall sanity. Not everyone will, but you have to balance the game for those who do. Any proposal that makes Titans worthwhile is going to guarantee that they're common after enough time, no matter what they cost, what skills they require, how much effort they take, or what sort of obscene restrictions you place on them. For that matter, even if they aren't worthwhile, they'll still be common - look at Moms. Expecting rarity is fundamentally stupid design.

</rantmode>


It's okay if you're a skeptic, but I think hardcore players would know better what acts as a limiter than CCP. I already said this, but they keep trying to rely on isk/sp, which only slows people down in the long run.

If you read all of what I wrote, you'd get a hint of how rarity is preserved. But I'll state it very bluntly right here:

Rule #1: Player Interference

Construction of supercapitals would be very visible, where anybody with a covert can see Titan hull sections being made at a POS. Current system means people use alts and you never know if a shipyard is building a Titan, Mothership, or absolutely nothing. But unlike the current 'all or nothing' death system, you'd have a dozen very expensive and very important POS to defend where losing any one could be as much as a mothership and send completion date back months.

Rule 2: Expensive Ownership

Currently, once you build a Titan you have no other financial considerations. If Titan upkeep requires serious logistics and cost, it effectively locks the 'bored rich carebear' or solo player out of ever owning one - or any small group. Owning multiple Titans as an alliance is not only increasing the number of targets you must protect, but the manpower and time you spend maintaining them. So unlike a spaceship, people would have to start considering Titans as a form of infrastructure. Unlike money, manpower is harder to get and even harder to preserve.

In addition, actions you'd consider trivial on a normal ship, such as repair and refit would consume massive resources and time.

Rule 3: Always Vulnerable.

A Titan can be something you can try to hide, but ultimately, can't. It's 100% persistent and there is no "poof" if everyone logs off. It stays in space as an anchorable asset when not being used, which gives hostiles a constant 24/7 window of opportunity. Its not enough for a few hardcore elitists to have the willpower to slog through the mud to build one if they don't have the numbers to protect it. Titan rarity scales with the playerbase because only the top two or three entities can defend theirs and everyone smaller can get steamrolled by them.

A Titan which isn't being maintained (repaired, refueled) in a way to keep up with the raids (however unsuccessful) is not going to live. The siege on one can last weeks, through a dozen battles if need be.

Rule #4: Team Asset / Team Death

Using one today is largely a solo affair, with limited interactivity during jump bridges. Rarity is possible when defensive and offensive capabilities require a team to use properly. The pilot shouldn't be in control of everything the ship can do, and should in fact, only act as the main navigator.

Also consider that if a Titan is being used to full potential, there are going to be hundreds of people with clones/assets stored inside, and massive resources piled up. Even if we made the ship cost 500bil, the total loss could exceed 1 trillion.

So there you go.

Sarah Moonshine
doMAL S.A.
Posted - 2009.09.16 15:31:00 - [333]
 

Where do I begin?

Titans... While I wholeheartedly agree titans needed a nerf of some sort, removing it's AoE seems wrong to me... way, way wrong. Guess I'll join the "you oughta do something about its agility or making it so that it can't warp right after firing the DD" chorus; Heck, you could give it an hp boost, allow it to fit siege modules (making it another dread in the field) and require it to be sieged in order to fire a DD. Of course, most people would just warp off by this point, but still...

Moros nerf is just plain wrong. Now it's on pair with Phoenix in its sheer uselessness.

Same for a fighter bay; carriers should be able to field any and all of the standard drones on the fly. Else, once a flight or two go down, you're pretty much defanged. It also limits its versatility even more and curbs gameplay. Thus being, please, please, please, please, leave the drone bay as it is.

Can't comment on removal from clone vat, command link bonus, because I've never used them anyway; triage was pretty risky in a mommie but removing options is bad. Good call on the duration / consumption stuff, though.

As for the new bomber fighters, heck, they should be assignable. And, provided they're not too overpowered, consider making them available for carriers as well (they can't field as many).

Butter Dog
Gallente
The Monocled Elite
Posted - 2009.09.16 15:33:00 - [334]
 

oh yes

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1083064&page=1#6

thank you etc

great changes


Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2009.09.16 15:35:00 - [335]
 

Originally by: Corinae
As i said 2 pages ago, with my idea we would have:

1) Titan without carrier support = shoot 1 time, wait ages for cap recharge.
2) Titan with massive carrier support = take cap from carriers and shoot every 30 sec / 1 minute beign the armed arm of carriers


The reason a timer was added between doomsday activation and jump was because people fitted them to regenerate enough cap to jump in 7 seconds after a doomsday.

If the same fit was added to a Titan with no timer between beam of death activations a single Titan could kill 9 capitals per minute. Bring out 5 of those titans and you won't have to worry about local nor remote reps as any opposing fleet will removed from space within a few minutes.

Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
Spreadsheets Online
Posted - 2009.09.16 15:36:00 - [336]
 

Quote:
One more thing - the Hel is getting rid of its current repair bonuses and trading them in for bonuses that enhance the endurance of its Fighters and Fighter Bombers. I guess the Flight Deck Chiefs on Hels like duct taping spare bits of armor onto their strike craft or something...

So the 3 pilots who actually fly a hel... would use it to rep poses. During sieges as you can rep the shields, skirt them, and if being shot. duck right into the shields again.

Except we know minnie suck balls. So any possible use must be nerfed.

ByFeve
Big Shadows
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2009.09.16 15:39:00 - [337]
 

Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Originally by: Corinae
As i said 2 pages ago, with my idea we would have:

1) Titan without carrier support = shoot 1 time, wait ages for cap recharge.
2) Titan with massive carrier support = take cap from carriers and shoot every 30 sec / 1 minute beign the armed arm of carriers


The reason a timer was added between doomsday activation and jump was because people fitted them to regenerate enough cap to jump in 7 seconds after a doomsday.

If the same fit was added to a Titan with no timer between beam of death activations a single Titan could kill 9 capitals per minute. Bring out 5 of those titans and you won't have to worry about local nor remote reps as any opposing fleet will removed from space within a few minutes.


This is accually an intresting idea if U use the Capital Energy Transfers to this so they get a real function in this game. I dunno exactly how this dude imagine it, but U could work with the idea to make Titans shoot more often if it get's energy transfered from Carriers.

Avatoin
Posted - 2009.09.16 15:41:00 - [338]
 

Originally by: Keretech
Good idea I think, not sure what is going really happen to all titans now though..

BUT I am sure you heard that babillion times, again WHEN capital and in general all ships get really simply mass x speed -> momentum attribute properly calculated so it should not be possible to 'bump' much more heavier ship with small one? This is most annoying thing in EVE and capital ship flying. If you really consider this, then any capital ship should cut straight trough any fleet of ships smaller in class and mass but several zeros with no or just a little changing course and not to get 'bumped'. When I fly Nyx I should see anything but capital ship simply splashing off my windshield, please CCP think about it for just one minute..... THX


Actually according to a previous blog, a similar bump change was set to be released in the latest patch (or at least in 1.5) but was taken out due to possible desync issue sthat could result from a very unlikely senario. I believe in the changes would happen in a future Apocrypha patch, or by Dominon at the latest.


Sarah Moonshine
doMAL S.A.
Posted - 2009.09.16 15:47:00 - [339]
 

Edited by: Sarah Moonshine on 16/09/2009 15:49:55
Oh, and supercarriers... that's adding insult to injury.

Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
Posted - 2009.09.16 15:50:00 - [340]
 

Sounds like a good concept. The devils in the details of course, but the basic plan seems fine. I'm also hoping you have plans, even if they are distant at the moment, to implement actual motherships at some point in the future.

Would it be possible to get a cool trailer with the new expansion where an avatar shoots one of these super lazorz from it's "mouth"? Cool

Also, alternative name suggestions for the supercarrier class. Not that I mind the name that much, but naming anything with super this or that just seems like a thing you'd want to avoid. Some of these are almost as bad though, but it isn't going to be pretty, if you insist on using the word carrier in there. Anyway: Fleet carrier, strike carrier, heavy carrier, assault carrier, combat carrier and battle carrier.

Juwi Kotch
KOTCH Construction and Anchoring
Posted - 2009.09.16 15:56:00 - [341]
 

1. Despite having nearly 70mil SP now I always have avoided to train for capital ships (besides Freighters), and concentrated on sub-capitals and the skills supporting the efficiency of their modules and weapons. However, from time to time I was eyeing the Moros with its Drone bonus as an interesting ship, linking sub-cap warfare with POS-batting. The Moros has a distinctive function and role in capital fleet engagement, she specializes in fighting the sub-cap support fleets. This will be gone, and thus the only incentive for me to ponder training for capital ships. I have still another 2 years or 3 to train to become an even better sub-cap pilot, so I think I will stick to that for now.

2. The most important change to capital ships is still missing: To get rid of bumping as a fighting tactics. It is rediculous, that it is still possible to effectivly play a major role in killing Dreads and Carriers just by bumping them around with small ships. Instead of nerfing ships left and right, CCP should invest time and effort to code something what makes the small ships bump off the big ones, and not vice versa.

kyrieee
Bite me inc.
Narwhals Ate My Duck
Posted - 2009.09.16 16:00:00 - [342]
 

Edited by: kyrieee on 16/09/2009 16:16:35
Edited by: kyrieee on 16/09/2009 16:16:20
Titan super death ray is a bit 'meh'
CCP needs to show some restraint. Weapons of mass destruction don't make for interesting gameplay. Personally I don't think there's a big difference between a death ray and a super smartbomb. The problem with both is that their 'balance' is rooted in Titans being rare, but there's not an effective mechanic in place to keep Titans rare. Upkeep for supercaps sounds like a great idea to me

My gripe with this Titan change is the lack of any ambition to turn it into something useful and unique. What people like about EVE is that bigger is not better, but unfortunately that design philosophy hasn't been applied to supercaps. Bigger IS better in this case, and if they can't come up with a better design then they should scrap them.

Having a superweapon could be okay, but don't make that the Titan's role.
Personally I don't think there's anywhere to go in terms of destructive capabilities after capitals, so don't make the Titan's role destruction. Make it an awesome support ship and come up with new forms of support / logistics that only a Titan can provide (like jump bridges).

Its role should be unique. Death ray role = extremely unimaginative
A Titan that has a death ray but is not fielded solely for the use of the death ray is fine in my book.

edit: btw, upkeep doesn't just have to be a simple isk transaction. Isn't the keyword for the new sov system 'infrastructure'? Make it a requirement to have an infrastructure to support supercap, like some kind of supercap maintenance facility

CNW Thornike
Caldari
Posted - 2009.09.16 16:07:00 - [343]
 

It is absolutely awesome news that CCP plans to make changes that makes carriers, carriers. Realism is one of the main reasons I and many other pilots enjoy EVE so much. Let's also ensure the lower-tier carriers are also focused on their job, rather than being logistics ships much more than carriers.
Well done again, CCP.

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2009.09.16 16:07:00 - [344]
 

You (and quite some others) here forget that there are ways to destroy a titan besides dropping dreads on top of him. Sure you can get 30 titans and attack with them, killing 30 dreads every 5 minutes, which isnt that impressive tbh, but what if that poor alliance you decided to throw your titans grab their battleships? Then you are using 30x50B=1.5T isk to kill every 5 minutes 30 battleships (assuming tracking is infinite). I can think of cheaper ways to do that.

Apple Boy
Gallente
Tri-gun
Auctorita Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.16 16:08:00 - [345]
 

so, you're nerfing the one reason why the moros is worthwhile, DON'T TOUCH! the whole point of the moros is that it can deal with support when out of siege.

titans, how are you going to deal with multiple titans being able to hop into a system whenever they want and ninja reinforce POSes or incap station services or whatever else in one volley and then getting out unharmed. This is easily doable with the amount of titans currently in game. I see this being abused very quickly after release and ruining the game for everyone.

motherships, supercarriers is just insulting. as for that drone bay, you better not make it so carriers/moms have only 1,000m3 or something for regular drones, especially if moms still can't dock. needs to be at least 5,000 m3 for regular drones. Having to constantly use an alt to reload drones for a mom that can't dock will just **** them off and pretty much guarantee that you won't see them on the field very often. Also, keep the triage mod for moms. It seems rather stupid to leave that for carriers but not their upgrades.

dreads, with the upcoming reduction in the need for POSes for sov, what's going to be their main role that will keep people using them? it's not like people are going to want to go "roaming" with them.

EveFairy0
Posted - 2009.09.16 16:13:00 - [346]
 

Hel and Moros changes are a bit meh, sounds they're gonna be the new worst ships of the class if they weren't already.

'Instapopping' of any kind is just stupid game mechanism how ever way you put it. Way better for titans would be to prevent using more than one of the current aoe dd's (on grid, in system w/e during the activation time). And after that just tweak it a little (maybe bit less dmg but also less delay; also naturally slower align or warp delay for firing the dd). That gives the 'titan team' some edge from using it but still would have to rely on using conventional fleet to clear the floor while giving some sort of chances for the enemy at the same time. DD would still be unique and usable but not the party spoiler it tends to be atm.

Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
Spreadsheets Online
Posted - 2009.09.16 16:13:00 - [347]
 

Quote:
Dreads :
What i find currious is that there is so much goon whineage about the moros nerf Confused
Are there so many goons using the Moros to stationcamp ?

Are people(not just goons) complaining that the dps is so low without drones because they only field sniping dreads ?


So you think a blaster moros is a plausible setup on tq? You are able to manage the 7.5km range while in a moros sieged?

@ 25km with maxed skills the best dps you are putting out is about 3500dps with blasters.

With rails. You get about the same dps from 25km and further. With the utility of being able to change for long range. Bubbled blaster moros vs capfleet @ 90km = moros who does nothing but wait to die.


People complain about station camping moros... but what about station camping 1hit titans? The fix is not to undock your capital into the titan? Wait so the fix for station camping moros is... dont undock into the station camping moros?


Nobody trained moros for it being as good as a revelation. It was purely the out of siege drones that made it a good dread. Nerf that... you are left with a ship nobody will fly.

ropnes
Posted - 2009.09.16 16:18:00 - [348]
 

Edited by: ropnes on 16/09/2009 16:18:59
I think Titans should be a lot more rare and A LOT harder to kill, as in you don't just go and kill them in a fight.

The idea of a 100 bil investment that you risk losing any time you deploy it is stupid. "It's supposed to be a big ****" - I know, but that's a really bad answer. You can't do this and that because of art resources and whatnot, but you can spend time making a big ****? Sorry, try again

A 100 bil isk ship should be able to be deployed without a massive risk of losing it. Tbh they should be similar to T3 ships in their ability to adapt different roles. You can deter people from just using them in any engagement by making it expensive to deploy them.

If they're extremely hard to kill in a regular fight then how do you kill them? Well, maybe assault the support infrastructure for the Titan? Just throwing some ideas out there. The current implementation of it being a regular ship with a overpowered weapon shows a huge lack of vision.

Taladool
Minmatar
JIta-Hosting
Posted - 2009.09.16 16:19:00 - [349]
 

I still like the idea of an area of effect rep module for titans.

jeffb
GoonFleet
Posted - 2009.09.16 16:26:00 - [350]
 

Guys I've never left empire but here are my sweet ideas for the dominion expansion. :)

RansomList
Posted - 2009.09.16 16:27:00 - [351]
 

Why the hell would you do that to the Moros?

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2009.09.16 16:30:00 - [352]
 

Originally by: DigitalCommunist
(snip...goddamn 4000 character limit...)


Yes, CCP keeps trying to rely on isk/SP to balance the top end, which is clearly doomed to long-term failure. We can agree on that. The trick is to balance them on a cost/effect basis, not on a "they'll be too expensive to have more than a couple" basis. The problem is, you're falling into exactly the same pit you're yelling at CCP for falling into. We both know that 60 billion a shot isn't enough to stop big alliances from assembly-lining these things, but you seem to think that 500 bil will be. While that price tag might stop Titans from being built, it won't be because it's too expensive to afford them, it'll be because it's too expensive for what they do. If a new Titan costs 500 bil, is permanently vulnerable, and is just a glorified outpost, then people will just take that money and build 20 normal outposts. Titans will at that point be rare for the same reason that third-level outpost upgrades are rare, which I don't think is what you want.

And no, those restrictions you described won't cut it. You're essentially describing a POS - always in space, always can be attacked, has a fuel cost, multiple players can use it. And while POSes die, I think we can both agree that this doesn't stop them from being exactly as heavily used as they need to be. Remember when people would have said that POS-spamming an 80 moon system was clearly insane and would never happen? All you're doing is saying that Titan pilots have to log off in POSes every night - this is hardly going to kill the ship. For that matter, if they cost what you suggest, it'll barely be noticeable except to the poor ******* who has to fly it.

Put simply, you seem to be once again relying on isk and effort as your balancing tool, and it won't work any better for you than it did for CCP. Just make the stupid things balanced in their own right.

Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
Posted - 2009.09.16 16:36:00 - [353]
 

Originally by: Jason Edwards
People complain about station camping moros


To add to this if station camping moros is an issue what about station camping carriers? Should carriers be gimped so they can't station camp? The moros didn't have exclusive rights on station camping and so the problem is overblown.

Serj Darek
Posted - 2009.09.16 16:51:00 - [354]
 

Do the people involved in making these changes on the CCP side actually still play the game outside of the testing region? Seems to me that a good portion of these changes were to correct game balance issues from over a year ago.

Anytime you allow your user base to model game balance is the point you start to lose connection to your user base, which is the status quo of the CCP <-> Customer relations at the moment. The CSM was intended to bridge the gap (right), which seems to have been accomplished by an NDA and dissemination (wtf) of future game mechanic changes. Nothing could possible go wrong there...

It's a sad time when almost all of the proposed changes are from previous forum posts from random people, where some of them had very little positive feedback on their idea(s). Instead of relying on forum whining, half baked ideas from the user base and somewhat supported ideas from the user base (courtesy of CSM), can't you take back control of your game?


Saul Reaver
Oberon Incorporated
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.09.16 16:57:00 - [355]
 

I'm very exited about the "Supercarrier" class capital ships.
However i do think CCP should think of a new "Class Name" instead of "Supercarriers".
Personally i prefer "Motherships" to keep their tag. These FighterBombers look and sound pretty awesome but Titans on the other hand are in dire trouble. The market for Titan's is already failing. Changing them into nothing but "Flying stations" this new weapon sounds quite boring.
A one shot weapon that can kill a cap? wow, Dreads can already do that job. The Dread fights i have been in normally a primaried dread lasts around 30 seconds so i think it's a bit pointless regarding the changes to Titan's. I think the Titan class should have additional skills maybe? Range of DD? Distance of jump portal?
What the Titan class needs is to make them a bit more skill intensive in order to stem the current Titan craze where everyman and his dog seems to be getting one.
CCP has to be very carefull they don't ruin the "Supercapital" class altogether. Only time will tell i guess.

Saerynn
Lost Intentions
Posted - 2009.09.16 17:07:00 - [356]
 

Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Rule 3: Always Vulnerable.

A Titan can be something you can try to hide, but ultimately, can't. It's 100% persistent and there is no "poof" if everyone logs off. It stays in space as an anchorable asset when not being used, which gives hostiles a constant 24/7 window of opportunity. Its not enough for a few hardcore elitists to have the willpower to slog through the mud to build one if they don't have the numbers to protect it. Titan rarity scales with the playerbase because only the top two or three entities can defend theirs and everyone smaller can get steamrolled by them.

A Titan which isn't being maintained (repaired, refueled) in a way to keep up with the raids (however unsuccessful) is not going to live. The siege on one can last weeks, through a dozen battles if need be.

I like this idea. The devil is in the mechanics, of course, but I think it's worth exploring.

Shpuntik
Federal Defence Union
Posted - 2009.09.16 17:10:00 - [357]
 

Edited by: Shpuntik on 16/09/2009 17:10:36
I'm glad that ddd is being changed its been needed for a long time and most of people who are against it have a titan or use 5-6 of them on hot drops. The strongest alliances in the game now have enough to nearly take out cap fleets with them as I'm sure it takes 26 or 27 to destroy a carrier according to test recently on sisi. DDD as said causes alot of strain on the server and when u get a fleet of say 100-150 travel 20 jumps only to jump in a system to find 3-5 titans there launching a ddd can be quite annoying.

As the devblog said tho titan changes are still working progress and not fully set in stone so what i would like to see is instead of this single ship thing is perhaps make the ddd an ew weapon of sorts say for example avatar uses ddd and it drains so much cap from every ship in an area or makes an effect of reduced cap recharge for an hour something like that. Or perhpas make it a deeathstar weapon able to destroy a pos with one shot at a rate of 1 pos every day or 3

As for motherships or supercarriers I still don't tthink they are worth getting despite reduced cost they are still too expensive as it is thing I would like to see is instead of make hic points scramble stop them jumping out and warping maybe make it stop them jumping out but still able to warp same with titan (dictor bubble unchanged) would mean more skill required to catch one and make the remote eccm more important.

Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
Posted - 2009.09.16 17:20:00 - [358]
 

Originally by: kyrieee
btw, upkeep doesn't just have to be a simple isk transaction. Isn't the keyword for the new sov system 'infrastructure'? Make it a requirement to have an infrastructure to support supercap, like some kind of supercap maintenance facility


Upkeep, especially tied to sov holding, is ridicilous. I, and several of my friends, live out of high/lowsec and do raids into nullsec. We're not interested in holding space, but we do have motherships and titans. Personal owned ships.

Adding an upkeep, and especially if it's tied to spaceholding, is plain stupid. And what would you do if one of these pilots are on vacation, get injured, or whatever reason stays out of the game a few weeks/months - he's gonna come back to see his ship gone?

Not everyone is interested in holding space, and not every cap/supercap is alliance owned. Upkeep is a horrible idea.

Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
Posted - 2009.09.16 17:24:00 - [359]
 

Originally by: Serj Darek
can't you take back control of your game?




Problem is it takes a game designer with vision. Someone that plays the game nearly constantly. Even then the players will be aware of certain issues because it affects them more.

The real issue is that ccp waits too long to address these issues. Issues like this, nanos, bpos, etc should have been all addressed 6 months from when everyone knew there was a problem.

As it stands if you find an advantage it's a moral imperative to exploit it for the next 3 years until patched. If you don't exploit it then the problem won't be addressed.

Kweel Nakashyn
shadow and cloaking
Yggdrasill.
Posted - 2009.09.16 17:25:00 - [360]
 

Originally by: Doomed Predator
The name supercarriers is lame and needs to be changed asap.

qft

If you want to change name, you could use Juggernauts or something...
I can hear "I'm in a ultracarrier" future memes allready.


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