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Del Narveux
Dukes of Hazard
Posted - 2009.09.16 12:50:00 - [301]
 

Any chance of a new sub-capital class that works similar to fighter-bombers? One of the big problems with capital gangs is they're remarkably good at point defense and very difficult to kill if you don't have several billion isk to field a capital gang of your own. And as you said in the blob, er blog Razz alliances love to hotdrop on just about anything. Case in point, last night some friends of mine had a pair of carriers hotdrop on a friendly punisher (no, really)...in the ensuing fight they managed to kill one of the carriers but it was a comedy fit and it still took a 25 man subcap gang like 15 minutes to get the job done.

I'm not saying we should have zergmobiles rolling around everywhere and capitals get insta pwned by a horde of angry bees, but maybe a new SB bomb that works well against large targets or something?

Djerin
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.09.16 12:53:00 - [302]
 

Originally by: CCP Abathur
Dreads will remain unchanged with one small exception - the Moros will only receive its drone damage bonus if it is in siege mode.


Why?!?

Battle Tested
Shiva
Posted - 2009.09.16 12:57:00 - [303]
 

Originally by: CCP Abathur


Originally by: Battle Tested
As it stands right now capital armor reps and capital shield boosters hardly have any affect on a supercap....Shouldnt "supercarriers" and titans at least get 100% repair bonus to these modules? fitting cap rep mods on supercaps is like fitting small reppers on a battleship (basically useless)


We've had a lot of back and forth on this one and it's not completely out the window. However, the question is, aside from just boosting the repair rate or creating new ones, just how much DPS should a supercap be able to solo tank? This is a very subjective and situational argument because one thing we do not want to see is Supercarriers and Titans able to do just dominate a battlefield on their own. Ships such as these should require teamwork and the support of other classes to be utilized to their full potential.



Well considering the new role is a frontline anti-capital platform now and the fact that it is still supposed to be a superior ship compared to the carrier it should be able to sustain much more dmg and not just with extra hp buffer. In most capital battles you will see 50 dreads minimum fielded by alliances/coalitions, that can easily melt through a mothership and a titan with no problem. There is no need for new modules specifically for the supercapitals, just give them a boost to their repair ability and also give them more capacitor capability to sustain the repair modules. Supercapitals should still be a force to be reckoned with and killing one shouldnt be easy. When they were first fielded we didnt see capital fleets like we do now and that needs to be taken into consideration when crunching the numbers on what a titan/supercarrier can tank especially when both supcapital clases are now designed to face off with these huge dread/carrier blobs.

Del Narveux
Dukes of Hazard
Posted - 2009.09.16 13:02:00 - [304]
 

On the tanking issue, how about this: logistics get some bonus to rep amount when their target is a supercap. Voila, you get better tanking, teamwork incentive, and a role for sub-caps in a cap fight (be a logistic, or be a BS/HAC trying to kill enemy logistics).

wallenbergaren
Posted - 2009.09.16 13:05:00 - [305]
 

Originally by: CCP Abathur

We've had a lot of back and forth on this one and it's not completely out the window. However, the question is, aside from just boosting the repair rate or creating new ones, just how much DPS should a supercap be able to solo tank? This is a very subjective and situational argument because one thing we do not want to see is Supercarriers and Titans able to do just dominate a battlefield on their own. Ships such as these should require teamwork and the support of other classes to be utilized to their full potential.


Well, what are you going to rep them with?
Like I said before, triage carriers melt in seconds to dreads. If you want a support ship for caps it needs to be able to tank dreads. But if it can tank dreads it's overpowered vs other things, so just give it a tank bonus vs dreads

Diehard Si
0utbreak
Outbreak.
Posted - 2009.09.16 13:07:00 - [306]
 

Like the changes generally.


But Nah, Moros and Phoenix all need a boost. I mean phoenix is useless in a fight, whats can it possibly do in a proper cap battle. its torps need to be LOTS quicker. I'd like to see the dreads specialised a bit maybe for the fleets, so that each one can offer something different. Make it a bit tactical.


The titans need to be balanced enough so people are willing to risk them on the battlefield, giving people a chance to kill them... but without them being the be all and end all of the combat. it shouldn't be 'whoever brings the most titans wins'

DeviloftheHell
Caldari
Hell's Courtyard
Posted - 2009.09.16 13:16:00 - [307]
 

Originally by: CCP Zymurgist
Know what is better than a capital ship? How about special modified weapons used to blow up other capital ships? I don't know about you but I am already excited over this idea. Thanks to CCP Abathur we have a new dev blog about some of the changes to capital ships coming in Dominion.

congratulations then nerf the other dreads too shooting only in siege ****ing idiots....
fiy your goddam bugs and laggy ****server then touch our ships nerfing is not a solution boost the other races to equal level

Vall Kor
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2009.09.16 13:25:00 - [308]
 

WOW sounds awesome! But please, please.. Make a 'Fighter Bomber' Class flyable for us regular (read non-super cap users) :P

Rexthor Hammerfists
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.09.16 13:33:00 - [309]
 

Edited by: Rexthor Hammerfists on 16/09/2009 13:35:39
Imo a change to caps is good, but these changes go only half the way.
The problem supercaps had were never the dps, well the dd was stupid, apart from that a mothership always did considerable dps.

Instead you dont see motherships on the field because they die so easily, same for titans. Titans worked because they wouldnt stay on the battlefield, Moms had to which is why they rarely came out of poses. If they did it was only a matter of time til someone noticed and they die. More hp will only prolong the outcome, instead a new change needs to be implemented for both the titan or mothership (screw supercarrier btw) to have a chance to survive a capital fight otherwise using them is just a gamble against bad odds.

As example, if i reinforce towers with a cap fleet, im putting my fleet at mroe risk keeping supercaps with me as when ppl notice they can hotdropme, kill the supecaps and loose the same amount of dreads/carriers and come out ahead - whereas if i only use normal dreads the risk for the person to hotdrop me is much higher.



Besides with the altest great changes, especially wormholes, i had hopes for a more clever change for capitals and supercaps. Something like subsystems like t3 cruisers have them for caps allowing many different specialized roles similar to t3 cruiser.

Also caps being able to move through entire regions in minutes, making it so easy to hotdrop someone needs changing imo - tho i honestly am not sure if cutting jumprange would be a good solution.

Good start ccp but youre far from finished with caps :/

Peter Kallesoee
Posted - 2009.09.16 13:36:00 - [310]
 

can carriers please have +2000 m3 more fule hangar space? the current fule bay is to small to be abel to follow a dread fleet around.

Yaay
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Posted - 2009.09.16 13:42:00 - [311]
 

Can you give everyone the ability to use buy titans and moms on sisi to get maximum testing? It makes no sense to leave the testing up to the handful capable when it will affect everyone on the live server.

This needs the widest scale testing possible.

Areo Hotah
Paxton Industries
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2009.09.16 13:51:00 - [312]
 

Can we have a rebalance of the short range weapons as well? They are not being used at all (maybe a lone station camping Moros has ions).

Ideally they would become the point-blank in-your-face **** guns, and the rails/arties/beam the longer-range version with (a lot?) lower dps.
Also introduce capital cruise launchers pls.

Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
Posted - 2009.09.16 13:51:00 - [313]
 

Originally by: Yaay
Can you give everyone the ability to use buy titans and moms on sisi to get maximum testing? It makes no sense to leave the testing up to the handful capable when it will affect everyone on the live server.

This needs the widest scale testing possible.


Yah.. but it'd require that market also had the best tank mods etc available too. Having a t2 tank on the 'new' Titan/Motherships wouldn't reflect TQ-performance.

Korinn
Habitual Euthanasia
Dystopia Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.16 13:53:00 - [314]
 

The fact people see the phoenix as a weak dread is pretty funny, given it does almost-close-range-moros dps at 150km (200 with rigs) with a 37 second flight time, and almost identical DPS to the other dreads at point blank.

All you need is to have phoenix' fire on their own target or just on secondary, 10 phoenix can pretty easily kill a sieged dread in maybe 1.5 - 3 minutes on their own.


Literally the only downside is shooting unsieged capitals, but against a hostile dread fleet they're arguably the best dread, especially when you consider the burst tank achievable with a full gank fit.

Yaay
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Posted - 2009.09.16 13:53:00 - [315]
 

Originally by: Misanth
Originally by: Yaay
Can you give everyone the ability to use buy titans and moms on sisi to get maximum testing? It makes no sense to leave the testing up to the handful capable when it will affect everyone on the live server.

This needs the widest scale testing possible.


Yah.. but it'd require that market also had the best tank mods etc available too. Having a t2 tank on the 'new' Titan/Motherships wouldn't reflect TQ-performance.


That's less of a problem than the month and a half it takes to build a titan on sisi.

Keretech
Posted - 2009.09.16 14:00:00 - [316]
 

Good idea I think, not sure what is going really happen to all titans now though..

BUT I am sure you heard that babillion times, again WHEN capital and in general all ships get really simply mass x speed -> momentum attribute properly calculated so it should not be possible to 'bump' much more heavier ship with small one? This is most annoying thing in EVE and capital ship flying. If you really consider this, then any capital ship should cut straight trough any fleet of ships smaller in class and mass but several zeros with no or just a little changing course and not to get 'bumped'. When I fly Nyx I should see anything but capital ship simply splashing off my windshield, please CCP think about it for just one minute..... THX

Fearless M0F0
Incursion PWNAGE Asc
Posted - 2009.09.16 14:01:00 - [317]
 

Originally by: CCP Abathur

We're well aware of the differences. The issue is that the Moros was doing an average of three times the out of siege damage over the other dreads. (snip)



Do you realize you guys have been systematically nerfing Gallente over the last 3 years?.. Evil or Very Mad

Moros and Domi are the only Gallente ships worth flying and you are taking off the table the only good reason to train for Moros

I have been crosstraining Amarr and Caldari with my 2 gallente chars for most of this year so it doesn't really affect me. I just hate what you guys are doing to this race.

LiMu Bai
Posted - 2009.09.16 14:02:00 - [318]
 

Edited by: LiMu Bai on 16/09/2009 14:03:59
SAVE THE MOROS!

At least one time listen to player base. Dont take away its role.


@ SupertitanoneshotBBQweapon:

All onehitters will be bad for a game. Loosing a Carrier in 1 sec @ a jumpbridge is even more stupid than the common DD. It will be massivly exploited.

Alekanderu
Posted - 2009.09.16 14:07:00 - [319]
 

Originally by: Gartel Reiman

Removing the bonuses would take the Rev from 563 DPS to 422 DPS with out of siege turrets, and I'd happily support it on the basis that it's logical, but I don't think it's particularly needed. If anyone has stories of being attacked by an unsieged Rev then I would be amused to hear them.


TL;DR - yes changing the other dreads' bonuses would make sense, but as they're hopeless out of siege anyway it's unlikely to change things actually in-game.


actually unsieged dread fleets have been successfully used at long range against battleship fleets on several occasions

out of siege they do equivalent dps (much higher alpha) to a sniping bs using t2 ammo at 150km; obviously their tracking is worse than the bs, but it's still good enough to track a bs at sniping ranges most of the time

i do agree though that making the other dreads rely on siege too wouldn't change anything in practice

Tester128
Fremen Sietch
DarkSide.
Posted - 2009.09.16 14:11:00 - [320]
 

nice new name btw - Scarier, sounds kinda scary

Sigras
Gallente
Conglomo
Posted - 2009.09.16 14:15:00 - [321]
 

ok, since nobody did it for me, im doing it myself now that im at home.

The current cost of a supercarrier (a Nyx for example) in raw materials is 12.2 billion give or take, plus the 250 million it costs to fuel the POS for 4 weeks to build the thing

(this is assuming all cap component BPO's at ME 100 and the Nyx BPO ME 5)

so say 14.5 billion adding in for a margin of error.

The capital clone vat bays are 1.3 billion of that cost or around 9% of the building cost.

so the cost of a supercarrier is coming down a fair amount.

On to a different topic . . .

IMHO, the problem with capital ship battles is that more = better 100% of the time. The new DD is going to change this a bit, but still 99.99% of the time more = better

The reason for this i believe is that dreads in siege are an island unto themselves in that the only thing that effects them is damage. Think what would happen if battleships couldn't receive RR and couldnt be jammed webed dampned tracking disrupted or target painted. More would always be better.

One of the things i love about this game is the diversity and the options open to me. I would take 2 guardians 2 falcons a curse and 3 battleships up against 10 battleships any day of the week

I would love to see a capital ship that can put on special capital class Ewar modules to effect caps in siege/triage or even if we saw the removal of the tanking bonus to siege modules but they allowed RR.

As it currently stands, i challenge anyone to come up with a group of 20 or less cap ships that can take out 20 dreads other than, 20 other dreads, 20 new supercarriers with the fighter bomber, or 10 titans with the new DD :p

Avaruusmies
UK Corp
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2009.09.16 14:32:00 - [322]
 

while i welcome all these changes, i hope that you are going too boost the hps of the supercarriers. as was stated ''The simple fact is that this class of ship now stays mostly parked on trained alts and is rarely used as they are nothing more than expensive targets for hungry legions of Dread pilots.'' double or triple the hps, or give some sort of capacitor boost so we dont end up spending 100billion isk on rare officer cap rechargers pleaseExclamation

Attrezzo Pox
Amarr
The Concordiat
Concordiat Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.16 14:48:00 - [323]
 

Edited by: Attrezzo Pox on 16/09/2009 14:56:22
Damn. Too bad this doesn't do anything to prevent the creation of Wow-type content expansions. Meaning endlessly making bigger and bigger ships to give players something new to play with.

I'm all for new ship types and options. I'm not for endless fields of capitals. Or capitals becomming or really, staying the standard in alliance warfare. They're supposed to be behemoths for God's sake. Only affordable by the richest few, and generally only really useful in tremendous alliance warfare.

I'm not looking forward to the days where cap piloting skills are required to join a 0.0 alliance, or where every empire player missions in a carrier.

No bueno. Capitals are like star wars jedis or level 80 characters on wow. Soon everyone's going to have them.

I've always been a fan of supercapital (at the very least) upkeep. To make sure that if you purchase/build one you have intentions on using it. It becomes an ongoing cost to keep and maintain. But I guess we're not going to see that. Very disappointing.

Hey on the bright side, I can put up some "My mom has a titan" T-shirts on zassle and make a little money.

Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
Spreadsheets Online
Posted - 2009.09.16 14:53:00 - [324]
 

Edited by: Jason Edwards on 16/09/2009 14:55:36
Titans: I really hate the 1shot hit deal @ 5min cycles.

Moros: No more station camping because you get your 1 min deaggro. Titans warp in 1 pop blewm.

I would really prefer titans had these massive tanking abilities... like actively tank 20 dreads in siege without breaking tank. Alternatively the titan itself does like same dps as the blog suggests or so; except not in 5min hits but instead 1 min hits. In other words. Same pwn power as the current 1 hit per 5mins except. So the titan doesnt become this uber hitter. Unless you can hold that capital on grid for 5 mins. This supports the idea of having support at least somewhat. Also since there's a 30 second halt; which allows aligning; you then take about 30 seconds more to get up to speed. So it's about 1 min to get away. 1 min cycle would make it possible that right when you're getting away. You can fire again. There's no 1min wait, run, come back for next shot. You kinda are designed into needing several shots; staying there for fun.

The other issue I find with the titan deal. It'd be so much dmg happening. Even the supercaps being hit just once. The sheer amount of damage would rip away shields. The ehp living in armor, and structure also. So lets say you're a nyx. You absorb the damage into your shields then hit into your armor tank. The armor tank most likely being able to suck up the rest of the damage. You rep up as you get away. Net change? You need to just be afk at a pos to recover your shields.

Now lets say you're a wyvern. Your shields suck up the damage. It then bleeds into your untanked armor. You turn your cap booster on. You then have armor damage. Oii that sucks balls lol.

So lets say they do 2mil dmg in those 5min hits. That's about 8000dps i thinks.
Lets just take same dps and dmg but put it into 1min strikes. That gives you about 400,000 dmg hits. Practical to be used against subcaps; except there's a fair locking time for that. Carriers/dreads cant really sustain that amount of damage; but it isnt any sort of ... "I lagged for 10 seconds and came back to see my pod, wreck, and a titan... but I had a hg slave officer fit thanatos!"

There's no insane hit and run problems. You need the titan there to sustain for a couple minutes at least.

On top of all that. You can give supercaps epic built in aux nano bonuses to make titans be able to sit there.

Alekanderu
Posted - 2009.09.16 14:56:00 - [325]
 

Originally by: Attrezzo Pox
Damn. Too bad this doesn't do anything to prevent the creation of Wow-type content expansions.

I'm all for new ship types and Options. I'm not for endless fields of capitals. Or capitals becomming the new standard battleship. They're supposed to be behemoths for God's sake. Only affordable by the richest few, and generally only really useful in tremendous alliance warfare.

I'm not looking forward to the days where cap piloting skills are required to join a 0.0 alliance, or where every empire player missions in a carrier.

No bueno.


the inflation of isk and sp is going to cause this no matter what, the only way to avoid it is to remove caps altogether which is a bad idea since older players are going to want a goal to work for or they'll quit the game

Attrezzo Pox
Amarr
The Concordiat
Concordiat Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.16 15:01:00 - [326]
 

Originally by: Alekanderu


the inflation of isk and sp is going to cause this no matter what, the only way to avoid it is to remove caps altogether which is a bad idea since older players are going to want a goal to work for or they'll quit the game


I was making reference to an attrition mechanic. Yeah you can have your titan or your capital, but it costs to maintain. If you want to keep it you gotta keep the oil changed and put air in the tires.

As for new stuff to keep old players around... I thought that's what t2/3 was for. t2 capitals? Anyway yeah.

ByFeve
Big Shadows
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2009.09.16 15:05:00 - [327]
 

Originally by: CCP Abathur
Originally by: Battle Tested
As it stands right now capital armor reps and capital shield boosters hardly have any affect on a supercap....Shouldnt "supercarriers" and titans at least get 100% repair bonus to these modules? fitting cap rep mods on supercaps is like fitting small reppers on a battleship (basically useless)


We've had a lot of back and forth on this one and it's not completely out the window. However, the question is, aside from just boosting the repair rate or creating new ones, just how much DPS should a supercap be able to solo tank? This is a very subjective and situational argument because one thing we do not want to see is Supercarriers and Titans able to do just dominate a battlefield on their own. Ships such as these should require teamwork and the support of other classes to be utilized to their full potential.


I strongly have to agree with "Battle Tested" in this matter, and wanna point out some things.

When "Motherships" was introduced to the game they were almost impossible to kill, but in todays EVE with both Interdictors and the Heavy version, combined with megablobs of capsulers all over EVE they are an easy prey wherever they go outside cynojammed systems. This results in a insane expensive carrier that's a pain to have since it can't be docked and most people don't dare to use where it matters.

To give this ship an 100% bonus to Capital Repairs is FAR from making it something that dominate anything - you should know this since your initial dev-blog states just this fact when talking about how times changes in the area of how much capitals there are. U could even add 500% to the capital reps and it wouldn't be close to dominate any real battlefield, but that would be an unbalanced bonus. 100% however isn't. And similar/bigger bonus should be applied to Titans also.

so don't be chicken about this McFly :p

//ByF

Irish Duff
Blackwater USA Inc.
Posted - 2009.09.16 15:13:00 - [328]
 

I didn't read the whole thread so it may have been asked already but will the new targeted dd be able to fire in lowsec?

Ven'Nochthos
Posted - 2009.09.16 15:24:00 - [329]
 

Edited by: Ven''Nochthos on 16/09/2009 15:24:31
.

Shadoo
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.09.16 15:24:00 - [330]
 

Interesting changes.

I'm looking forwards to taking 20+ Titan fleet out to have a spin at some poor little alliances capital fleet Laughing.


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