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Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2009.09.25 14:53:00 - [391]
 

Edited by: Cpt Branko on 25/09/2009 14:53:21
Originally by: Wet Ferret
Large ships should be something that are situational and infrequently used, not the "standard" that everybody takes into a fight. How many people seriously take anything smaller than a cruiser into PvP these days? Or even since RMR? Maybe I'm thinking too far back but, still, the point stands.

I like this change. Not because it's the right change (it probably isn't, because several AFs still need individual attention) but because it may potentially bring small ship combat back into the spotlight.


If you've visited FW-infested region of low-sec, here's the run down of your typical scanner:
AF
AF
ceptor
AF
ceptor
frigate
frigate
destroyer
cruiser
cruiser
BC
...

There is *no* shortage of small hulls in space, even with the AF's stupid pricing at the moment. From the viewpoint of "how common they are", there is no problem as things are.

One of the main reasons pirates don't use them so much is that they're worthless near gates/stations, and a gang of them is even more worthless at gates/stations, since your gangmates cannot help you if any get caught, and well... small ship combat for pirates sort of blows.

Large ships are rather rare to see solo, and I don't even remember the last time I saw a roaming solo battleship. Medium hulls are common, because they are not only cost-effective, but make more sense for people of a piratical persuasion to fly (since they don't insta-melt whenever there are sentries around), and they have certain advantages given their wider target selection (coupled with the disadvantages of dying in camps very easily / slower roaming / worse at tackling / more expensive bar T1 cruisers).

Anyone rooting for 'frigates owning everything' is in reality wanting a I-win shipclass with all the advantages, and that would be broken if CCP did indeed deliver. Now, the proposed boost does not bring most of them that far unless it's a Jaguar with a touch of pimp.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2009.09.25 15:39:00 - [392]
 

Originally by: Sidus Isaacs
I will still kill these AB frigs by the dozens (even more the weeks after patch is launched because its the new fad).


I'm training SML Spec V right now. Razz

But this AF boost is a bit, well, blunt. It helps the good AFs like Jag and Ishkur too much, while not really helping the crappy ones. Also, when will we hear about the rocket fix?

Constantine Merlonne
Posted - 2009.09.25 15:41:00 - [393]
 

I like the wat that the majority of people here, though agreeing AFs need a little bit help, think that the afterburner boost is not the way to go and offer tons of, good or not, ideas to explore.

Hear us, CCP!

Dennard
Northern Cross Enterprises
Posted - 2009.09.25 21:24:00 - [394]
 

After some testing, I would like to share my observations, some if not all have already been stated. Please note I can fly the Hawk and the Harpy, but mainly the Hawk.

This boost, though sounds cool, is not a real fix for the AF's. Yes, it does increase survivability to close range AF's, helps with cap and fitting. It is really a boost, but I think we can do better.

Each ship has their own strengths, and their own problems. I think they need to be looked at individually and given a fourth bonus specific to that particular ship. I mean isn't that basically what every other T2 ship has?

If this change goes through in Dominion, at least look at and improve some of the gimpier AF's and weapon systems. this includes CPU/PG, slot layouts, DPS vs T1 frigates (damn Kestrel!) and as you said Rockets. But I would prefer a 4th bonus made for each ship.

Gordon Red
Posted - 2009.09.25 22:54:00 - [395]
 

The AF speed is now nice, but it is not enough.

If the general speed of afterburners would be such effective (~250% speed bonus with skills and all), they would be an "option" for PVP in general.

Speaking of afterburners vor AFs atm, I still would choose a MWD.
1,2km/s - 1,7km/s is not enough, if you have to flee.

That speed gives you an advantage, if you choose to fight, but neuted or webed you die.
AND as mentioned above, if you want to flee, it isn't enough => win or die :-(


Smk56
Posted - 2009.09.26 00:06:00 - [396]
 

Originally by: Gordon Red
The AF speed is now nice, but it is not enough.

If the general speed of afterburners would be such effective (~250% speed bonus with skills and all), they would be an "option" for PVP in general.

Speaking of afterburners vor AFs atm, I still would choose a MWD.
1,2km/s - 1,7km/s is not enough, if you have to flee.

That speed gives you an advantage, if you choose to fight, but neuted or webed you die.
AND as mentioned above, if you want to flee, it isn't enough => win or die :-(




Im not quite sure what you are trying to say. If you get webbed or neuted you are also going to be scrammed. MWDs are for staying out of web/neut/scram range. ABs are for giving you more survivability in them(my jag can run its ab even while neuted).

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2009.09.26 01:37:00 - [397]
 

Originally by: Gordon Red

That speed gives you an advantage, if you choose to fight, but neuted or webed you die.
AND as mentioned above, if you want to flee, it isn't enough => win or die :-(



Yeah, you get about 1K speed, 1.5K in pimped fits, vs 200m/s when scrambled/webbed/neuted with a MWD. You were saying?

The lack of speed to fully tackle with just a AB is damn well fine, because the AB has bugger all in terms of weaknesses compared to the MWD.

Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2009.09.26 01:47:00 - [398]
 


You need to make the Assault Frigate bonus not apply to oversized afterburners.

Vanessa Vasquez
Quantar Swords
Posted - 2009.09.26 03:57:00 - [399]
 

IF you guys still feel AFs need a boost, buff MWDs instead.

MWD Signature Radius Bonus 10% per frigate lvl

With this, you'll have nearly the same effect. AF's will become more durable. But ...

- MWD can be shut off
- MWD is harder to fit, uses more cap
- Vmax will still be balanced compared to all other frigate sized ships in this game
- AB will still be viable option due to fitting/cap usage/even lower sig radius/ can't be scrammed off

my 2 cents






Hurricane Carter
0ccam's Razor
Corcoran State
Posted - 2009.09.26 10:15:00 - [400]
 

I don't see what all the fuss is about...


[LOW]
2x Gyro II
1x Nanofiber II

[MIDS]
Med Shield Extender (best named)
T2 Scram
T2 Small Shield Booster
T2 1MN Afterburner

[HIGH]
3x 125mm AC II
1x Best named small NOS

Runs at 1600m/s, caps out eventually, doesn't boost like a mofo or anything and has not the best DPS...

really why are people whining ? Its not like THAT MUCH is changing

Willem Revolati
Gunpoint Diplomacy
Posted - 2009.09.26 11:15:00 - [401]
 

I tested this out last night, very exciting change and nice to see some AF love from CCP.

Nice to see them buffer the ship in to a much better heavy tackler, I even noticed that this change has started to give drones a harder time hitting AF's. Of course the extra speed makes tracking more difficult particularly for those who like to fit big guns. But my personal fav AF the Ishkur seems to be reaping the full benefits of this change due to its drones ability to maintain consistent damage, plus the popular Ishkur Tracking Disrupter build has just become even more irritating to others YARRRR!!

Hoping the change might encourage some armor tanked AF pilots to take off the armor plates and make their frigs be as fast and agile as they're supposed to be. The DCU II + Energized Reactive II (well depending on your race) + Small Armor Rep II setup is a pretty great way of armor tanks making the most of the ships new speed change. As for putting in speed mods in the lows I'm not too sure of this just yet, with the acception of the Jaguar in which I think this is a great idea.

All in all a nice change CCP, I await the ability to keep up with smug Vagabond pilots with much glee Laughing

Soporo
Caldari
Posted - 2009.09.26 17:42:00 - [402]
 

Originally by: Hurricane Carter
I don't see what all the fuss is about...



So an AF with an AB that orbits at 15 or so and points you with complete immunity is not OP?

Especially considering a Cruiser with mwd can't dictate range anymore, can't hit with med neuts, can't do squat with light missiles+painter+rigor+flare? Laughing

Hurricane Carter
0ccam's Razor
Corcoran State
Posted - 2009.09.26 21:48:00 - [403]
 

Originally by: Soporo
Originally by: Hurricane Carter
I don't see what all the fuss is about...



So an AF with an AB that orbits at 15 or so and points you with complete immunity is not OP?

Especially considering a Cruiser with mwd can't dictate range anymore, can't hit with med neuts, can't do squat with light missiles+painter+rigor+flare? Laughing



If your gonna sit there letting it get in range... you might as well self destruct your ship right now.

1.6 k/sec is not THAT moronically insane, kite it, pop it with warriors II's etc etc etc ad nauseum, ad infinitum.

But don't whine in the forums about "oh noes, Overpowered !!! overpowered !!!!"

You can still kill'm ! granted, not as easy as prepatch, but... they are not the "omgwtfbbqsolopwnmobiles" you lot make them out to be

Soporo
Caldari
Posted - 2009.09.26 22:30:00 - [404]
 

Originally by: Hurricane Carter
Originally by: Soporo
Originally by: Hurricane Carter
I don't see what all the fuss is about...



So an AF with an AB that orbits at 15 or so and points you with complete immunity is not OP?

Especially considering a Cruiser with mwd can't dictate range anymore, can't hit with med neuts, can't do squat with light missiles+painter+rigor+flare? Laughing



If your gonna sit there letting it get in range... you might as well self destruct your ship right now.

1.6 k/sec is not THAT moronically insane, kite it, pop it with warriors II's etc etc etc ad nauseum, ad infinitum.

But don't whine in the forums about "oh noes, Overpowered !!! overpowered !!!!"

You can still kill'm ! granted, not as easy as prepatch, but... they are not the "omgwtfbbqsolopwnmobiles" you lot make them out to be


How the hell do you "kite" something that is faster than you, even with your mwd?

How do you "pop" it if it only takes single digit missile damage outside of web/neut range due to low sig, fast speed?

Warriros? How do I kill it/drive it off with Warriors if the cruisers don't have a drone bay? Don't fly Caldari? Thought so.

Mashashige
Minmatar
Eternal Perseverance
Hellstrome Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.27 02:41:00 - [405]
 

Originally by: Soporo
Don't fly Caldari? Thought so.


Pick 3 of the following:
Caldari
Solo
PvP
Good

I.E, don't ***** about not being to deal with any situation while flying solo. Also, being tackled =/= dead, as a tackler without help cant do **** to you. Now if hes tackling for a blob, you're ****ed - but then again, you prob made atleast 1 friend since you started playing, right?

P.S
WHINE ON!

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2009.09.27 09:00:00 - [406]
 

Originally by: Mashashige
<Personal attack>

Keep that crap in COAD please.

Your argument about a tackler not being able to do anything to you falls rather short when dealing with AFs .. they have 150-200dps and 50-100dps tanks. They only need backup against passive shield tanks, everything else dies unless fitting the requisite 4-5 mods to counter it.

The ultimate anti-frigate ship, the Assault Caracal has a hard time killing AB AFs on TQ already, do you really think increasing their speed at no cost will make it easier?
MWD fitted AFs are insanely powerful for their size but they trade in a good chunk of fitting, cap and the sig-bloom to become so.

Please read the thread, all the relevant arguments have already been made. Making high-dps/high-tank frigates faster than nearly everything else with no downsides is at least six months of further balancing waiting to happen.

Hurricane Carter
0ccam's Razor
Corcoran State
Posted - 2009.09.27 09:27:00 - [407]
 

Originally by: Soporo
Don't fly Caldari? Thought so.


Actually my other account is a 35Mil SP Caldari PVP Toon, and as the poster after you said/hinted at, balancing stuff around 1vs1 is moronic at best considering VERY little 1vs1 happens in EVE any more.

Also, if the sig rad on a AF bothers you so much, fit that caldari cruiser with a web and / or targetpainted.

going into a fight completely focussed on something else is well... yhea moronic !

the AF's need to get in web range do do their scrambler mojo, which means they can be webbed, target painter helps vs EVERYTHING and adds Gang support when not trying to 1vs1... the list is pretty long and your just looking for ways to call the AF's overpowered.

also on the "kiting" issue. if he starts off, 40 km away from you
has 1.6k/sec speed and you have like... 1.2k/sec you can still keep that range distance up for a bit, and if he's just burning towards you (Zero transversal) any gun in the game will be able to hit & track'm, despite his sig rad.

So again, stop whining about it and use the counters / aid the game provides.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2009.09.27 10:23:00 - [408]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
The ultimate anti-frigate ship, the Assault Caracal has a hard time killing AB AFs on TQ already, do you really think increasing their speed at no cost will make it easier?


No it doesn't, and it doesn't on Sisi either.

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2009.09.27 11:10:00 - [409]
 

Edited by: Cpt Branko on 27/09/2009 11:11:08
Originally by: Hurricane Carter

1.6 k/sec is not THAT moronically insane, kite it, pop it with warriors II's etc etc etc ad nauseum, ad infinitum.


You can go 1.9km/s now in a Jaguar with a slight touch of pimp. Postpatch Jaguar does 3km/s with the same touch of pimp.

Also, you can make the perfect tackler which WILL get that scrambler on target and goes 7km/s easy (and probably ~11km/s pimped, ha ha ha) on a afterburner, cap stable, with MSE, since the bonus applies to oversized ABs too Very Happy

Not very effective solo because you don't do any damage in the 9km orbit you'll be at, but it's preety much win for laying that scram till the rest catches up and death is really, really not a option ;) The bonus should not apply to oversized ABs.


Nikuno
Posted - 2009.09.27 11:13:00 - [410]
 

Originally by: Hurricane Carter
also on the "kiting" issue. if he starts off, 40 km away from you
has 1.6k/sec speed and you have like... 1.2k/sec you can still keep that range distance up for a bit, and if he's just burning towards you (Zero transversal) any gun in the game will be able to hit & track'm, despite his sig rad.


Why do people continue to quote this ridiculous idea? Most of the time in a cruiser you're fitted with close range weapons. Have you ever used rails on a thorax? Artillery on a rupture? The fitting is horrible, CCP specifically designed these ships with too little grid to cope with a ranged fit.

If you use lasers or missiles you can get a reasonable range and the idea works to an extent, but are you honestly saying that medium blasters or autocannons are going to hit a target from 40km as it closes? You're lucky to start hitting with crappy, long range ammo from around 10km, and the fact that it takes so long to change that ammo means you probably won't even try to as you'll just sit and wait for him to close the extra 5km for short range ammo to work, then he'll get inside 1km and you'll stop hitting again. 4km of opportunity, at a closing speed of 400m/s in your example. That's 10 seconds, or 3-4 rounds of fire. Absolutely useless. Might as well just press the self destruct if warping off in the first instance fails, because you'll never win this fight in these cruisers versus an assault frigate.

Having said that, I prefer to play according to how CCP usually works, so I'm buying up all manner of sexy AF's and look forward to encountering you in low sec sometime soon.

Akiba Penrose
The Praxis Initiative
Posted - 2009.09.27 12:14:00 - [411]
 

Originally by: Cpt Branko

Not very effective solo because you don't do any damage in the 9km orbit you'll be at, but it's preety much win for laying that scram till the rest catches up and death is really, really not a option ;) The bonus should not apply to oversized ABs.



With a 17 sec allign time (thats about as agile as a Maelstrom with a 100MN AB fitted) id say an AF with 10MN AB is pretty much useless for tackling.

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2009.09.27 13:14:00 - [412]
 

Edited by: Cpt Branko on 27/09/2009 13:14:21
Originally by: Akiba Penrose
Originally by: Cpt Branko

Not very effective solo because you don't do any damage in the 9km orbit you'll be at, but it's preety much win for laying that scram till the rest catches up and death is really, really not a option ;) The bonus should not apply to oversized ABs.



With a 17 sec allign time (thats about as agile as a Maelstrom with a 100MN AB fitted) id say an AF with 10MN AB is pretty much useless for tackling.


Alternatively, you can fit modules and rigs! Rolling Eyes

It reaches about 3+km/s where any larger things stop outrunning you in ~5s, and 5km/s in ~12.5s.

Just needs to not apply to oversized modules.


Hurricane Carter
0ccam's Razor
Corcoran State
Posted - 2009.09.27 17:41:00 - [413]
 

Originally by: Nikuno

Why do people continue to quote this ridiculous idea? Most of the time in a cruiser you're fitted with close range weapons. Have you ever used rails on a thorax? Artillery on a rupture? The fitting is horrible, CCP specifically designed these ships with too little grid to cope with a ranged fit.

If you use lasers or missiles you can get a reasonable range and the idea works to an extent, but are you honestly saying that medium blasters or autocannons are going to hit a target from 40km as it closes? You're lucky to start hitting with crappy, long range ammo from around 10km, and the fact that it takes so long to change that ammo means you probably won't even try to as you'll just sit and wait for him to close the extra 5km for short range ammo to work, then he'll get inside 1km and you'll stop hitting again. 4km of opportunity, at a closing speed of 400m/s in your example. That's 10 seconds, or 3-4 rounds of fire. Absolutely useless. Might as well just press the self destruct if warping off in the first instance fails, because you'll never win this fight in these cruisers versus an assault frigate.


AC Ruptures will SHRED any AF burning with Zero transversal to get in range, seeing as RF EMP M Begins hitting around the 15k mark and he needs to get into at least <10 km range (count to that the turn to reach orbit following his getting into range) and a AC rupture will omgwtfbbq a jaguar -_-

Also, AGAIN, Fit webs / target painter etc etc etc to counter their speed/sig rad. they are in the game for a reason you know.....




Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Posted - 2009.09.27 17:54:00 - [414]
 

Originally by: Pattern Clarc

You need to make the Assault Frigate bonus not apply to oversized afterburners.


No problem there - it's not as if you have any grid left over for tank + weapons after fitting one, and they weigh about 5 times as much as your ship.

Akiba Penrose
The Praxis Initiative
Posted - 2009.09.27 19:30:00 - [415]
 

Edited by: Akiba Penrose on 27/09/2009 19:37:58
Originally by: Nikuno
If you use lasers or missiles you can get a reasonable range and the idea works to an extent, but are you honestly saying that medium blasters or autocannons are going to hit a target from 40km as it closes? You're lucky to start hitting with crappy, long range ammo from around 10km, and the fact that it takes so long to change that ammo means you probably won't even try to as you'll just sit and wait for him to close the extra 5km for short range ammo to work, then he'll get inside 1km and you'll stop hitting again. 4km of opportunity, at a closing speed of 400m/s in your example. That's 10 seconds, or 3-4 rounds of fire. Absolutely useless. Might as well just press the self destruct if warping off in the first instance fails, because you'll never win this fight in these cruisers versus an assault frigate.

Having said that, I prefer to play according to how CCP usually works, so I'm buying up all manner of sexy AF's and look forward to encountering you in low sec sometime soon.


2 x Small or 1 Medium Neutralizer will drain an AF in about 20 sec,, Then its game over, since its not able to maintain transversal anymore.
This has always been the achilles' heel of the AF's, and giving them a speed boost wont change it. They will still die very easily to neut fitted cruisers.

N Solarz
Caldari
Chaos Reborn
Posted - 2009.09.28 00:41:00 - [416]
 

CCP: PLEASE READ AND LET US KNOW YOU ARE LISTENING

simply put, you need to go through each AF indivdually and FIX THEM. a blanket change like the ab bonus does not fix anything. with the exception of the ishkur and maybe the harpy, all af's still suck, ab bonus or not. you need to go through each af and look and whats wrong with them. dont just blanket them

Thorian Baalnorn
Posted - 2009.09.28 03:30:00 - [417]
 

Originally by: Soporo
Originally by: Hurricane Carter
Originally by: Soporo
Originally by: Hurricane Carter
I don't see what all the fuss is about...



So an AF with an AB that orbits at 15 or so and points you with complete immunity is not OP?

Especially considering a Cruiser with mwd can't dictate range anymore, can't hit with med neuts, can't do squat with light missiles+painter+rigor+flare? Laughing



If your gonna sit there letting it get in range... you might as well self destruct your ship right now.

1.6 k/sec is not THAT moronically insane, kite it, pop it with warriors II's etc etc etc ad nauseum, ad infinitum.

But don't whine in the forums about "oh noes, Overpowered !!! overpowered !!!!"

You can still kill'm ! granted, not as easy as prepatch, but... they are not the "omgwtfbbqsolopwnmobiles" you lot make them out to be


How the hell do you "kite" something that is faster than you, even with your mwd?

How do you "pop" it if it only takes single digit missile damage outside of web/neut range due to low sig, fast speed?

Warriros? How do I kill it/drive it off with Warriors if the cruisers don't have a drone bay? Don't fly Caldari? Thought so.


I just tested this on Sisi. In my hawk i can get about 1.3km/s with my standard setup and in a harpy i can get 1.5 km/s w/ a nano setup.

I think that is right on par tbh.

sarcasm = But i see what your saying as far as ships with mwd. Lets look at larger ships w/ mwd and why they are going to suck now against AB AFs.
1) Largers ships are more heavily armored.
2) larger ships put out more DPS
3) larger ships have neut ranges of 12 or 24 km which will just about instakill a AF being shot at.
4) larger ships (most of them) have a dronebay and many can send out a full group of 5 warrior IIs
5) Most cruiser size ships with MWD can out run even a nano AB AF w/o overloading.
/sarcasm

Its not like AF is going to go around now soloing vaga' ishtars and other T2s. And they never been paticularly bad at killing t1 cruisers solo.

What i would like to see in addition... role bonus: 50% to warp scram/disruptor range.

This would allow AFs to tackle larger ships and stay out of nuet range but at the same time it makes it easier for those larger ships to track ( being further out and all) and being in optimal of more of the long range guns. In any case BC and BS ships usually have drones to help them deal with such threats. So i dont think its to overpowering.


DMF KingBob
Posted - 2009.09.28 06:40:00 - [418]
 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
1. Devs Nerfed Webbers so much that the fail in function as takle an call this speed nerf.....

2. The Devs increasing Speed....

My Idea : Give Frigates/AF/Ceptors the ability to use an "Signatur Reducing Modul"(Copyright of PAR) (Tech 1(5%),2(10%) And 3(15 or 20%) !!!!!!)

Jason Marshall
Gallente
Mad Bombers
Guns and Alcohol
Posted - 2009.09.28 08:19:00 - [419]
 

Edited by: Jason Marshall on 28/09/2009 08:19:26
Originally by: DMF KingBob
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
1. Devs Nerfed Webbers so much that the fail in function as takle an call this speed nerf.....

2. The Devs increasing Speed....

My Idea : Give Frigates/AF/Ceptors the ability to use an "Signatur Reducing Modul"(Copyright of PAR) (Tech 1(5%),2(10%) And 3(15 or 20%) !!!!!!)


Passive low slot?

DMF KingBob
Posted - 2009.09.28 11:05:00 - [420]
 

passive/cap less yes -> to make it better against medium and large anticap weapons...


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