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Pipova
Posted - 2009.09.16 14:43:00 - [151]
 

I've read most of the tempest,projectiles and this thread.
From what i understand, flavor of the month gang tactics,
make the flavor of the month ships->weapon systems.

If i am not teribly mistaken weapon systems attributes -except
missiles- have not changed for a year and a half now, atleast.

CCP went from speedboost to nosnerf to ecm nerf then speed nerf
with some steps in there that i am propably missing. These changes
were the cause of great frustration or joy to the playerbase
depending the side they were by the time each change was implemented.

As it stands pulse lasers fit more to the current 'rules of engagement'.
No need for big changes in my opinion, either a tracking nerf to lasers,
or tracking increase to hybrids and projectiles, and/or the same thing
regarding range.

Keep in mind thow that balance can be achieved only if the environment
remains static and is ccp's intention to change it everynow and then
just to keep people crosstraining, discovering new aspects of the game
and thus paying more in subscriptions. A static game nomatter how big
monomany can develop to a player is not enough to keep him paying the
subscription forever. But a nerf and then a boost and then a
nerf again and so on, keeps us paying.

In other words.

CROSSTRAIN. end of story. today is lasers, tomorrow projectiles.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2009.09.16 14:49:00 - [152]
 

Originally by: Pipova
CROSSTRAIN. end of story. today is lasers, tomorrow projectiles.


There's no proof that tomorrow is projectiles. In fact, I'd say there's proof that it won't be "tomorrow" by any reasonable understanding of the word. I'd guess it'll be a 12-18 months (expansion after Dominion) before we see any kind of weapon balancing taking place. They're making so many changes already (to everyone), and many of those that target Minmatar seem to be built around the currently terrible weapon platform environment.

-Liang

Seriously Bored
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.09.16 14:55:00 - [153]
 

Originally by: Pipova

In other words.

CROSSTRAIN. end of story. today is lasers, tomorrow projectiles.


You're right on most of that. But I think it needs to be said...this "today" has lasted for a year and change now. And as for "tomorrow," anyone who was holding their breath for a projectile buff has long since died of suffocation. Rolling Eyes

Pipova
Posted - 2009.09.16 15:38:00 - [154]
 

Liang i thing you are right about the time schedule.
It is around 12-18 months. We are already through
the first six i think or something like that.

This timeframe was the same back when lasers ruled
everything and with a mega you couldnt do s***t, then
missiles ruling then field, then the age of hybrids
and medium autocannons(remember stabbabond) where lasers
where sucking big c***s, then the laser boost which
didnt make them all that great, because back then all you
could hope for in a zealot was to scare away a vagabond or
die horribly to a diemost if you got cought.

Nanonerf and rr gangs are the actual boost to lasers.
I do like that medium range is now included in pvp
and not only either upclose or far away, and i strongly
believe that since all races have a lowsp ship effective
in pve, new players that want to be effective in pvp
should train/crosstrain the standing fotm. Its not like,
that if you are in a t1 myrm or drake or whatever, you are
loosing that much time in specialising somewhere else.
In fact the time the new player has spent training the
non-effective, no fotm race/ship will be used as a trustfund
for later nerfs/boosts.

For skyhigh sp, only in one race (why would somebody
do that? i actually dont know anyone) i am pretty sure
the player can find atleast one ship per class that it
is effective.

So in other words the year and half window, before a
race goes from king of the hill, to peasant is enough
for specialising being the king. Crosstaining is your
friend if you 're into pvp.

Again for the current state of things a slight tracking
and/or range calibration is more than enough.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2009.09.16 15:50:00 - [155]
 

Originally by: Pipova
Liang i thing you are right about the time schedule.
It is around 12-18 months. We are already through
the first six i think or something like that.



The problem is that projectiles have been sucking it up for more than one of these 12-18 month cycles. They're rebalancing alot of Eve ATM, and the assumptions they seem to be making don't jive with a projectile patch this time around, so IMO it will be *another* 12-18 months before this really happens. Furthermore, there have been none of the more ominous signs of a laser nerf.

Quote:
Nanonerf and rr gangs are the actual boost to lasers.
I do like that medium range is now included in pvp
and not only either upclose or far away, and i strongly
believe that since all races have a lowsp ship effective
in pve, new players that want to be effective in pvp
should train/crosstrain the standing fotm.



I dunno, that seems pretty much like folly to me. It's *asking* to get your kitten kicked, and I'm pretty Neutral about that.

Quote:

For skyhigh sp, only in one race (why would somebody
do that? i actually dont know anyone) i am pretty sure
the player can find atleast one ship per class that it
is effective.



A couple of reasons (I have 40M SP in Minmatar/Caldari, and Gallente gunships):
- It's a play style that they enjoy.
- Cross training tends to leave your overall skills weak in any single ship.
- The fate of a battle is decided on the wings of 2% bonuses. Frequently specialization into a terrible ship will let you beat out someone not nearly as specialized in a much better ship.


Quote:
So in other words the year and half window, before a
race goes from king of the hill, to peasant is enough
for specialising being the king. Crosstaining is your
friend if you 're into pvp.


I respect your opinion, but just can't agree with you. Cross training for FOTM early (before "reasonable" 4s in spec skills and 4-5 in all support) seems to be a recipe for heartache and failure to me - and leave you without an effective ship to fall back to when the (inevitable) nerfs happen.

-Liang


Eli Porter
Posted - 2009.09.16 15:52:00 - [156]
 

Edited by: Eli Porter on 16/09/2009 16:05:43
I think what made Amarr as good as they are now is the speed nerf. Amarr is weakest when it is engaged point blank. Mid-Long range Amarr can't be beat, and the fact that it takes a while longer now to reach close range is the prime contributor to making Amarr ships so popular.

Due to their inherent lack of versatility, Amarr make for a pretty weak solo race. They shine in large fleets, and that IMHO should not change.

Gallente ships easily beat Amarr if they get the initial warp-in for point blank. However if they want to get fast DPS on an Amarr ship before they get into range(Like in gate camps for example) they have to use Null nowadays. The 10 seconds reload/ammo switch time hits their slower ships hard, so I would reluctantly(Being a Biased Amarr user) support halving that time to about 5 seconds.

Minmatar shares Gallente's issue due to the time they need before they can inflict significant damage, though their Missile systems help with that a bit. Still, I would support the same reload change to Projectiles. Along with that issue, Minmatar have a plethora of other issues regarding long-mid range combat in both their ships and weapon systems(Namely the Tempest and Artillery).


Caldari's only issue(IMO) is fitting into RR BS fleets which are the norm nowadays. Even though Scorpions can work well, gank+armor tank is still missing in the Caldari's BS line when it comes to RR BS(Don't even try to say the Raven can work). Though Caldari work just fine in mid-long range combat, while having the best EWAR and missioning available. So I'm not sure a buff is in order. Maybe switch a low slot with a mid on the Raven, but I wouldn't be sure about that seeing as my Raven flying experiences are non-existent.


tl;dr, I would support minor buffs to Caldari and Gallente, and major buffs to Minmatar. while keeping Amarr as it is.

SuiJuris
No.Mercy
Posted - 2009.09.16 16:24:00 - [157]
 

I would like to remind everyone in the thread AGAIN, that these unbalances are ONLY at the Battleship lvl, Blasters and projectiles are fine at the small / medium lvl

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2009.09.16 16:41:00 - [158]
 

Originally by: SuiJuris
I would like to remind everyone in the thread AGAIN, that these unbalances are ONLY at the Battleship lvl, Blasters and projectiles are fine at the small / medium lvl


They're not "fine" at small/medium level. They're just less broken (See: Artillery as still obviously broken at cruiser level)

-Liang

AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2009.09.16 18:07:00 - [159]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: SuiJuris
I would like to remind everyone in the thread AGAIN, that these unbalances are ONLY at the Battleship lvl, Blasters and projectiles are fine at the small / medium lvl


They're not "fine" at small/medium level. They're just less broken (See: Artillery as still obviously broken at cruiser level)

-Liang


I've been saying this for ages. If you note in the assembly hall thread, my changes apply to all size weapons and ammo.

Imbalances in projectiles simply aren't as pronounced at the small level. Get to the medium level and it becomes a bit more visible (425mm ACs, medium artillery), and then get to large and it's very visible. Smaller minmatar ships thrive ONLY on oversized mods. Look at the claw. The rupture. To a smaller extent, the hurricane. Some of them have merit in speed (vaga, stabber).

Won't they become overpowered with my proposed changes, you ask? No, the ammo changes do nothing for barrage boats and those fitting lower tier ACs will lose falloff compared to higher tier.

Agallis Zinthros
Amarr
Posted - 2009.09.16 19:43:00 - [160]
 

Lasers don't need a nerf. With lasers you geta ccess to EM and Thermal, thats it. You will never do Expl or Kinetic. The other guns get ammo that can do those damage types as well as EM/Therm.

Seriously Bored
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.09.16 20:04:00 - [161]
 

Originally by: Agallis Zinthros
Lasers don't need a nerf. With lasers you geta ccess to EM and Thermal, thats it. You will never do Expl or Kinetic. The other guns get ammo that can do those damage types as well as EM/Therm.


And you do enough damage with "just EM/Thermal damage" to virtually negate the advantage that other damage types might have, especially at the long range level.

I just want to say for the record I don't want to nerf lasers as a whole, just Tachs (bring them in line with the balance currently present at other weapon sizes). The rest could be solved by fixing Projectile ammo, IMO.

Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
Posted - 2009.09.16 20:05:00 - [162]
 

Originally by: Agallis Zinthros
Lasers don't need a nerf. With lasers you geta ccess to EM and Thermal, thats it. You will never do Expl or Kinetic. The other guns get ammo that can do those damage types as well as EM/Therm.


Sure, as blasters for example, which have all 4 kinds of damage, right? Oh wait...

And regarding Projectiles, you already pay for choosing your type of damage by having to downgrade to less damaging ammunition, and even your most damaging ammunition (EMP) has lower total damage than Multifreq or Antimatter, and this damage is horribly spread between Explosive and EM.

So no, being able to "choose" damage type does NOT compensate having less than half the damage of lasers in any realistic situation.

Davinel Lulinvega
Posted - 2009.09.16 20:17:00 - [163]
 

Originally by: Twilight Mourning
On the flip side... I seem to recall some amazing PvP videos by Cown where he was using projectiles on an Abaddon and doing much better than with pulses because of the great tank it could have without using cap for weapons... Hmm... The projectiles must be overpowered because they don't use cap by your logic.
Oh wow, how did I miss this? This may be the single worst post I have ever seen.

Psiri
Posted - 2009.09.17 02:40:00 - [164]
 

Great DPS
Good range
Good tracking

Pick 2

- Them being cap intensive is nowhere near enough to balance the fact that they currently enjoy all three. Sure you don't get to choose damagetypes but honestly, I'd argue that it's only a few missile ships that do.

Lili Lu
Posted - 2009.09.17 04:00:00 - [165]
 

Originally by: Seriously Bored
Originally by: Agallis Zinthros
Lasers don't need a nerf. With lasers you geta ccess to EM and Thermal, thats it. You will never do Expl or Kinetic. The other guns get ammo that can do those damage types as well as EM/Therm.


And you do enough damage with "just EM/Thermal damage" to virtually negate the advantage that other damage types might have, especially at the long range level.

I just want to say for the record I don't want to nerf lasers as a whole, just Tachs (bring them in line with the balance currently present at other weapon sizes). The rest could be solved by fixing Projectile ammo, IMO.


Yeah, we already had that discussion. Tachs aren't going anywhere. Dream on.Laughing

Thought this thread was about scorch?Confused No indication of any laser nerfs incoming. There is indication of projectiles being buffed. It appears all you laser/Amarr haters will have to wait until the projectile changes, to see if your arguments will hold any semblance of validity.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2009.09.17 04:22:00 - [166]
 

Originally by: Lili Lu
There is indication of projectiles being buffed. It appears all you laser/Amarr haters will have to wait until the projectile changes, to see if your arguments will hold any semblance of validity.


TBQFH there is no indication of projectiles being buffed anywhere in the near future. In fact, there is very strong evidence that it will not.

-Liang

Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
Posted - 2009.09.17 04:36:00 - [167]
 

Originally by: Lili Lu

Thought this thread was about scorch?Confused No indication of any laser nerfs incoming. There is indication of projectiles being buffed. It appears all you laser/Amarr haters will have to wait until the projectile changes, to see if your arguments will hold any semblance of validity.


There is no difference between buffing projectiles and blasters, and nerfing lasers. Any of the two solutions would have the same results regarding weapon balancing.

Unfortunately, as Liang said above, there are no indications of any buff to projectiles.

Lili Lu
Posted - 2009.09.17 04:36:00 - [168]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Lili Lu
There is indication of projectiles being buffed. It appears all you laser/Amarr haters will have to wait until the projectile changes, to see if your arguments will hold any semblance of validity.


TBQFH there is no indication of projectiles being buffed anywhere in the near future. In fact, there is very strong evidence that it will not.

-Liang


In the faction battleships thread in test server forum the CCP guy, sorry getting late, can't look up, mentioned that the changes will be independent of changes being made to fixing projectiles. Now if they do that, and give the navy phoon and pest another mid-slot than what they posted, all may be well.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2009.09.17 04:46:00 - [169]
 

Edited by: Liang Nuren on 17/09/2009 04:46:49
Originally by: Lili Lu
In the faction battleships thread in test server forum the CCP guy, sorry getting late, can't look up, mentioned that the changes will be independent of changes being made to fixing projectiles. Now if they do that, and give the navy phoon and pest another mid-slot than what they posted, all may be well.


Let me quote it for you:
Originally by: CCP Ytterbium

We are aware of the current issues this ship has, mainly due to problems with the standard Tempest in the first place. We will discuss this further based on the feedback expressed here. We can't say much more than that unfortunately, since the core problem remains extremely delicate to tackle (and yes we are also aware of the various player threads and discussions that are on-going about the Tempest and projectiles in general).



Let's properly interpret this:
- We know the fleet pest sucks because the pest sucks.
- Yes, we hear your *****ing about it. Yes, we'll keep it in mind. No, we won't be fixing it because it's tricky.

Ancillary evidence:
Originally by: CCP Ytterbium
We are already working on revamping 20 faction ships while adding 4 new navy battleships for Dominion; the changes are not even finalized and yet you are still thirsty for more?
...snarky (and funny) post about doing it yourself...



You should note that he doesn't even bring up the huge amount of sov changes that are going to happen in the next expansion. But I'd say between "(re)creating 24 faction ships" and the huge round of sov changes that CCP will (probably correctly) not attempt to tackle a "tricky" problem like projectiles.

IMO, the evidence is really overwhelming against us seeing a projectile boost inside the next 18 months.

-Liang

Ed: Conversely, I think the evidence is pretty overwhelming against us seeing a laser nerf as well.

Albert O'Balsam
Posted - 2009.09.17 06:22:00 - [170]
 

For anyone with a long memory let us not forget that lasers sucked bad for a couple of years in the early days and it took ages to get them changed at all. Now they are pretty good, but it is probably more to do with ship bonuses than the turrets themselves, as certain ships with lasers rule rather than all ships with lasers.

OK, so they rule in mid range engagements in PvP, but in PvE IMHO they are prety ordinary and try to get large lasers to hit anything smaller than a BC at mid range.

These are things the devs will have to consider when changing any balance in weapon type and I hope they in fact do.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2009.09.17 07:05:00 - [171]
 

Originally by: Albert O'Balsam
For anyone with a long memory let us not forget that lasers sucked bad for a couple of years in the early days and it took ages to get them changed at all. Now they are pretty good, but it is probably more to do with ship bonuses than the turrets themselves, as certain ships with lasers rule rather than all ships with lasers.


Being underpowered for X time does not entitle you to being overpowered for X time. Two wrongs do not make a right.

Quote:
OK, so they rule in mid range engagements in PvP, but in PvE IMHO they are prety ordinary and try to get large lasers to hit anything smaller than a BC at mid range.


Man honestly if you think you have it bad with the best tracking long rang weaponry in game....
-Liang

Doddy
Excidium.
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2009.09.17 07:29:00 - [172]
 

Its just a scorch vs null/barrage question really. And i like barrage, alot. So is it really just a boost null question?. The quick reload time is nice but doesn't really have a huge effect, especially as the lasers are already effective at long ranges (the point people think needs nerfed).

Jin Entres
Malevolent Intervention
Posted - 2009.09.17 08:26:00 - [173]
 

Originally by: Doddy
Its just a scorch vs null/barrage question really. And i like barrage, alot. So is it really just a boost null question?. The quick reload time is nice but doesn't really have a huge effect, especially as the lasers are already effective at long ranges (the point people think needs nerfed).


If anything, Null should be nerfed. Did you know that on large guns, Null outdamages Barrage up to 20 km? Blasters shouldn't be that good at that range. The only compensating factor is reloading time which imposes a tangible loss of damage in wasted time (while Barrage is most of the time preloaded, however not always).

And yes, the quick reload does have a significant effect in many situations. It's always worth switching ammo on lasers when crossing optimal barriers. Not to mention that where switching between targets at different ranges, having instantaneous ammo change produces opportunities that would otherwise be unavailable*.

* Imagine, for instance, a situation where you are in a geddon fighting a BS up close while a hostile falcon uncloaks at 60 km. Or imagine fighting a cruiser sized ship up close when it decides to leg it and starts burning away, quickly escaping your Multifrequency range. Or imagine flying a Harbinger, jumping into a system and finding a Hurricane 20km away; you will get a headstart with scorch and can then switch to MF when it gets up close. These, and many other similar situations, demonstrate how instant switch can indeed be very significant. Laser users often like to downplay its usefulness -- possibly because many of them haven't experienced other turrets and have simply come to take the advantages of switching as granted and will not notice how much it can do for them until they try other turrets.

Helicity Boson
Amarr
The Python Cartel.
The Defenders of Pen Island
Posted - 2009.09.17 11:48:00 - [174]
 

Medium and Large T2 lasers feel overpowered, the flexibility in range offered by scorch/multifreq is incredibly good, and tracking remains very decent with either ammo.

But, I will say this, I think it's mostly a matter of giving a slight buff to the other T2 ammo, particularly Null/Void and things will be mostly allright.

Hybrid ammo will never be buffed to the point where it's equal to the scorch/multi combo however, because the primary users (e.g. gallente) already get larger drone support on almost all ships to increase their DPS.

(and yes I know drones are not always equally useful in PVP situations, like when sentry guns are involved)


Kaileen Starsong
Amarr
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2009.09.17 12:03:00 - [175]
 

Edited by: Kaileen Starsong on 17/09/2009 12:07:35
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Albert O'Balsam
For anyone with a long memory let us not forget that lasers sucked bad for a couple of years in the early days and it took ages to get them changed at all. Now they are pretty good, but it is probably more to do with ship bonuses than the turrets themselves, as certain ships with lasers rule rather than all ships with lasers.


Being underpowered for X time does not entitle you to being overpowered for X time. Two wrongs do not make a right.



While it doesn't if you look from the balance's point of view, you could also try picking a different angle. I'm sure devs love have to play bowling with playerbase, getting them to train different fotm and basically just adapt in a changing world. It also makes Eve quite fun to play in long perspective, but it obviously sucks for ones who are stuck with lower end of rope. I hope the actual balance won't be achieved, both due to the price of such achievement and to the inevitable stagnation after that.

I, too, believe that projectiles won't be getting any love for quite some time. The fact that devs are aware of the issues says nothing about deadline of said issue getting fixed. I.e. Zulupark(if anyone still remembers him) went "omg WAT?! This will be looked at" when he was pointed at the fact that T2 Sentry drones don't benefit from racial specializations. That was QUITE a while ago and it's such a minor(technically atleast) change, yet nothing is done.

Overheating has been broken from the start in regard of most non-gun modules(it's stacking penalized with different amplification modules, see ECM Amps, SB Amps, Gangmods(web/point, AB/MWD, rep/boost duration) and so on). Yet nothing has changed and CCP has actually taken the stance that it's "working as intended".

So don't hold your breath for changes in this aspect unless you want to die off suffocation.

Quote:
These, and many other similar situations, demonstrate how instant switch can indeed be very significant. Laser users often like to downplay its usefulness -- possibly because many of them haven't experienced other turrets and have simply come to take the advantages of switching as granted and will not notice how much it can do for them until they try other turrets.


This is often overrated. Yes, it's advantage and is quite an obvious one. In most cases it doesn't change much, though(Arma will still get jammed, Harb will win pretty much nothing as it first will have to target Hurri, then switch to scorch, then turn off guns, then switch to MF... consider that Hurricane will close very fast, you won't be winning much - and I'm saying that from PoV of a Hurricane).

Jin Entres
Malevolent Intervention
Posted - 2009.09.17 13:44:00 - [176]
 

Originally by: Kaileen Starsong

This is often overrated. Yes, it's advantage and is quite an obvious one. In most cases it doesn't change much, though(Arma will still get jammed, Harb will win pretty much nothing as it first will have to target Hurri, then switch to scorch, then turn off guns, then switch to MF... consider that Hurricane will close very fast, you won't be winning much - and I'm saying that from PoV of a Hurricane).



In the hypothetical situations..

Geddon may well get jammed, but at least it has the opportunity to do something. Replace falcon with anything appearing at that range or outside of 30km in general providing any kind of support. Or replace the geddon with an Abaddon fitted with an ECCM, or postulate any similar situation and compare the laser users' possibilities to that of anyone else's.

Harbi can switch ammo while it is targeting, no? Assuming scorch isn't preloaded (which it always is for me). And would a harbi pilot sit still and let the 'cane come up close? Of course not, at the very least it will be hitting orbit at 20 and turning the mwd on. This alone will buy several seconds of pew pewing before the cane starts doing any real damage. And switching back to MF costs maybe 1 second which makes no difference (even easier now with weapon grouping). Not to mention that 'cane is only 15% faster than Harbi which leaves room for skill and implant differences aswell as piloting (such as use of overheating). It is quite possible for a Harbi pilot in such a situation to outrun the 'cane and never let it get within webbing range (or at the very least prolong the chase considerably).

You say it's overrated. I say it's underrated. It's mentioned or acknowledged as an advantage but rarely afforded much consideration beyond that. That is my experience with these discussions, anyway. I think it deserves to be recognised as more than just one more item on a list of minor advantages; it's not huge but it is distinct and can be quite significant. I have only come to appreciate its value after adding lasers and Amarr to my arsenal (some year ago, having skilled for every other race before it).

Conversely it may be easy to underestimate its value not only if you are an exclusive laser user but also if you are not, so I would be interested in knowing that besides speaking as a hypothetical Hurricane pilot, do you also use lasers?

Of course, the incredible range of scorch is an essential part of what makes it useful. Instant switch wouldn't be nearly as useful on autocannons (it would be rather useful on blasters, though).

Kaileen Starsong
Amarr
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2009.09.17 14:03:00 - [177]
 

Edited by: Kaileen Starsong on 17/09/2009 14:08:48
Originally by: Jin Entres

You say it's overrated. I say it's underrated. It's mentioned or acknowledged as an advantage but rarely afforded much consideration beyond that. That is my experience with these discussions, anyway. I think it deserves to be recognised as more than just one more item on a list of minor advantages; it's not huge but it is distinct and can be quite significant. I have only come to appreciate its value after adding lasers and Amarr to my arsenal (some year ago, having skilled for every other race before it).

Conversely it may be easy to underestimate its value not only if you are an exclusive laser user but also if you are not, so I would be interested in knowing that besides speaking as a hypothetical Hurricane pilot, do you also use lasers?



Yeah, I do. In fact I can(and have, though mostly in past tense now) use all weapon systems, so comparing is not some extraordinary task.

It's very handy bonus to have, as it offers versatility. Now, the fun thing is that it's most pronounced with Large lasers, which actually compensates very low mobility quite nicely(alas, to an extent where you can afford not using prop-mod in low-sec for example). Plus with BS size the speed of fight itself is noticeable slower, so you get to use the advantage for notably longer.

For BCs it's much less so. Yeah, you could think of case where it's handy and gives you nice advantage(I.e. you're Harb, you're uncloaking, Hurricane is 20km away), but it could turn other way where it gives nothing(I.e. Hurricane is uncloaking -> you have to react, you have to launch drones/target/switch ammo if needed, etc). The tempo of the fight is also higher, and diverting your attention to ammo switching to get 2 more seconds of firing might not benefit you much, if at all.

Don't get me wrong, insta-switch IS an advantage and it can be used as such. Just like often looked down at variable damage types on projectiles - you could be in Hurricane warping onto, say, Astarte, you load Hail and land at 5km... then you have dead Astarte(or same with RF EMP/PP and Abso for example). Or you could just as well land 15km away and get popped :) Granted, not nearly as forgiving as insta-switch, but gives even more of an advantage if applied correctly.

Edit. Also, you could say that insta-switch is very-very good and is a major laser Pro. I'd even agree. But then this Pro is either mitigated via certain ways or is used to outweigh some Cons of ships that mount the lasers. In the end, I'd say that for small/medium lasers it's pretty ok, while for larges it's better than ok - mostly due to the huge range differentiate between scorch and MF on that scope.

Kevin Finnerty
Posted - 2009.09.17 14:22:00 - [178]
 

It's clear that pulses are well imba. For me, I'd be happy with a large increase in hybrid damage, so you'd still get the massive range issues but arhghmyfacewhathaveyuarghuusplat.

Sebastien LaForge
Percussive Diplomacy
Posted - 2009.09.21 17:01:00 - [179]
 

Edited by: Sebastien LaForge on 21/09/2009 17:02:39
Originally by: Kevin Finnerty
It's clear that pulses are well imba. For me, I'd be happy with a large increase in hybrid damage, so you'd still get the massive range issues but arhghmyfacewhathaveyuarghuusplat.


This. What bugs me is that for a race that has the highest damage, lowest range guns, that they need to be practically point blank to use them and aren't particularly fast. They're also completely inflexible in their range. Along with the web nerf and MWD shut off from scram, it's really hard to keep the range close enough to bbq what you're shooting at. The hell am I supposed to do when minmatar are faster than me and flexible enough in their range to shoot me with the hardest hitting ammo outside of my optimal+falloff and kite my at the same time?

Unless it's a frig I'm flying, I don't really bother with blasters since they track worse, have ****tier range, require silly amounts of PG and CPU requirements against HAMs and projectiles, and take a lot of cap.

I rarely see blaster ships win because with the fitting costs and mods to attempt too stay in optimal, they become these inflexible glass cannons. Either give me more range or a bigger boost to damage so I'm not at such a stupid disadvantage.


tl;dr I'm using blasters wrong. :P

Caleb Fury
Amarr
Reloaded.
Posted - 2009.09.21 17:59:00 - [180]
 

I just took advantage of CCP's deal, "The Power Of Two." I am power-leveling a new character atm so I guess I will train projectiles. I need to get on the next FoTM train.


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