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Jin Entres
Malevolent Intervention
Posted - 2009.09.17 08:40:00 - [31]
 

Other advantages of a NM:

• Cheaper faction/T2 ammo (crystals last long)
• No wasted missiles fired toward targets that will die to a previous salvo
• No need to pre-empt how many salvos targets will take (don't you just hate switching targets when you thought you had fired enough but it wasn't?)
• Instant switch of ammo to maximise damage at no loss of time
• No reload after X shots (don't you just hate when you have to reload your launchers just when one more volley would finish off a BS and they rep meanwhile to last one more)


Qui Shon
Posted - 2009.09.17 08:41:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Kzintee
Resists don't matter when you're doing 1000DPS. Cap doesn't matter. My NM has 13 minutes of cap running hardeners and guns.


I can appreciate the sentiment, but I don't entirely agree. Imo, the key to fast missionrunning is spawning everything as fast as possible, assuming it spawns at range which is usualy does. This so you can use max dmg ammo on as much as possible of it.

That means you need a fair sized tank, say 500dps or so. Like Damsel full kill <7,5min, Sansha Pie Inv <9 min warpin to warpout. I still do not think you can do that without a tank.

Forranz
Malice.
Tentative Nature
Posted - 2009.09.17 13:11:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Qui Shon
Originally by: Kzintee
Sansha Pie Inv



Confirming Sansha Pie is invading. Coming from a Marie Callenders near you.Very Happy

Kzintee
Caldari
Posted - 2009.09.17 14:24:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Qui Shon
Originally by: Kzintee
Resists don't matter when you're doing 1000DPS. Cap doesn't matter. My NM has 13 minutes of cap running hardeners and guns.


I can appreciate the sentiment, but I don't entirely agree. Imo, the key to fast missionrunning is spawning everything as fast as possible, assuming it spawns at range which is usualy does. This so you can use max dmg ammo on as much as possible of it.

That means you need a fair sized tank, say 500dps or so. Like Damsel full kill <7,5min, Sansha Pie Inv <9 min warpin to warpout. I still do not think you can do that without a tank.


I'll disagree. Key to fast mission running is knowing how much to spawn at any given time so that you continue killing without stopping. Taking Damsel as an example. Does it matter that you hit Kruul immediately upon spawn or 2nd before last? No, the only thing that matters is that you don't kill him last, so you have time to lock the new spawns and keep pewpewing.

What I should have said was "uber high resists don't matter". You still need tank, but nothing to a point of idiocy like we see sometimes on forums.

Qui Shon
Posted - 2009.09.17 14:53:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: Qui Shon on 17/09/2009 14:56:47
Originally by: Kzintee
I'll disagree. Key to fast mission running is knowing how much to spawn at any given time so that you continue killing without stopping. Taking Damsel as an example. Does it matter that you hit Kruul immediately upon spawn or 2nd before last? No, the only thing that matters is that you don't kill him last, so you have time to lock the new spawns and keep pewpewing.


Yes, it matters, as this is the only mission I know of where Pulses are, without any doubt, better then Tachs, and so you want all the BS's to be within MF optimal, which isn't more then (iirc) 17km or so with my fit of 4x hs + 1 TE + 1 TC, as you want the TC on tracking script.

Killing without stopping isn't enough, you've got to be killing without stopping, using maximum damage ammo as much as possible.

It also matters, because you do not only want max effectiveness from your guns, but also from your drones. So you want frigs up close as well, to reduce travel time for your Hobos, and npc's targeting you, not your drones, so you don't have to scoop them. Iirc I use 2x Sentries on the building until it pops, while three Hobbies work on the frigs.

If I return to L4's, I'll be doing my damndest (if that is even a valid expressionRazz) to break the 7 min spent out-of-warp barrier. Last time I was still missing some skills to 5.

Quote:
What I should have said was "uber high resists don't matter". You still need tank, but nothing to a point of idiocy like we see sometimes on forums.
Yeah, I agree "don't overtank it", and that is why I "appreciate the sentiment" in the last post.


Oh, Bloods do TD, most definitely. Not in every mission though. That's why Bloods >> Sansha for the NM, much much less of an EW problem. NOS schmos. Smile

Ancy Denaries
Posted - 2009.09.17 15:03:00 - [36]
 

Confirming that certain Blood frigates indeed TD. Was surprised myself to find out yesterday (I've never noticed before).

Also confirming, as someone said, that a pimped Nightmare is well....a nightmare in PvP. Just look at DHB Wildcats "Burning EVE" movies...or try yourself. I personally know for a fact that a Nightmare is awesome in PvP. It's just a tad risky, considering the amount of isk you throw at it.

Don't believe me? Go find out at Battleclinic.

Seriously Bored
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.09.17 15:07:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Edward Mungrelson

I thought that if a torp was hit by a defender then it would lose damage proportionate to the % of health it lost?



Here's the interesting part: Only if you have them grouped.

Ungrouped torps lose no damage to defenders at all, as a single torp only loses its DPS by being destroyed (and defenders can't destroy a torp). Grouped ones, however, have their damage reduced by the proportion of their collective HP left. It's kind of a weird mechanic, but in the end, it favors the four-slot Golem.


Alsyth
Night Warder
Posted - 2009.09.17 15:22:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Alsyth on 17/09/2009 15:22:49
Originally by: Seriously Bored
Originally by: Edward Mungrelson

I thought that if a torp was hit by a defender then it would lose damage proportionate to the % of health it lost?



Here's the interesting part: Only if you have them grouped.

Ungrouped torps lose no damage to defenders at all, as a single torp only loses its DPS by being destroyed (and defenders can't destroy a torp). Grouped ones, however, have their damage reduced by the proportion of their collective HP left. It's kind of a weird mechanic, but in the end, it favors the four-slot Golem.




That's... VERY interesting. Why isn't it on FAQs ?

Qui Shon
Posted - 2009.09.17 15:27:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Alsyth
That's... VERY interesting. Why isn't it on FAQs ?


Maybe because the more it's talked about, the sooner CCP will nerf it Evil or Very Mad

Seriously Bored
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.09.17 15:44:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Qui Shon
Originally by: Alsyth
That's... VERY interesting. Why isn't it on FAQs ?


Maybe because the more it's talked about, the sooner CCP will nerf it Evil or Very Mad


CCP actually said it themselves in a Dev blog. It takes careful reading, though. Here's the Dev blog it's stated in, and here's the quote:

Originally by: CCP Ytterbium

We also reduce the missile stack damage depending on its remaining overall hitpoints. So if the group of two heavy missiles gets reduced from 140 to 70 hitpoints, it will do 50% less damage to the target. This last rule only applies to stacked missiles, not ones launched in normal mode.


So, since defenders can't normally destroy torps, their damage is unaffected unless you group them.

Eftim S'Jet
Posted - 2009.09.17 17:05:00 - [41]
 

I'm planning to upgrade from a Raven to a Nightmare too. Cross training to Amarr wasn't an issue since I already PvP in blaster boats, and training Amarr BS and Large laser skills to level 4 took very little time. It's also useful as laser boats can be fun for PvP as well, while training for a Golem seemed a waste of time to me.

While on the subject of Nightmares, I'm getting one very soon and am having... well... nightmares about the setup. I don't plan on dumping billions of ISK on equipment though (mainly because I don't have the said billions), I just want to get it geared with some navy mods. Anyway, I've made two possible setups I'd like to use:

Setup 1 - passive tank
4 Heat sinks, 1 Tracking Enhancer
Tracking Computer, 4 Navy hardeners (2 of each needed type), 2 Large Extenders
4 Tachyons, 2 Large named NOS
3 Shield Extender rigs

Setup 2 - active tank
DCU, 3 heat sinks, 1 tracking enhancer
Tracking Computer, 2 Navy Hardeners, Navy XL Booster, 2 Shield Boost Amplifiers
4 Tachyons, 1 Large NOS, 1 tractor (second NOS won't fit)
3 Capacitor safeguard rigs (less cap used by booster)

Other than the navy hardeners & booster which I already own most of the stuff will be T2 or best named, and as I make ISK I'll get them upgraded to Navy mods (maybe I'll even move to Amarr and get the stuff through the LP office). The question is - which setup would work best? The first one relies on killing the rats fast enough, while the second is meant to last much longer, pulsing the booster. With my current skills I do about 710 dps with named guns and 800 once I upgrade to navy equipment. Am I taking big chances going passive? I don't want to have to keep warping out of the damned mission...

comrade captain
Posted - 2009.09.17 17:18:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: comrade captain on 17/09/2009 17:18:15
ive never experimented with passive nightmare however i fly an active one a lot, i have found my favoured setup is as follows

highs 4 tech 2 tachs (or amarr navy) 2 tractors

meds 2x cap rechargers 1x invul 2 (or a faction one if you have the isk) and 2 mission specific hardeners tech 2 active 1xl booster and a tech 2 boost amp

lows- 3 amarr navy heatsinks 1 domination tracking enhancer and 1 pdu 2

rigs 2x ccc t1 large 1x ccc t2 large

drones 5 hobgobs and 5 hammerhead 2s

Builder Robert
Posted - 2009.09.17 17:48:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Arthur Frayn

Torp Golem can't hit out to 150km with Javelins. Tachyon Nightmare with Aurora-L can.


And how much less dps does that give you than the 41 km setup others are talking about?

Kzintee
Caldari
Posted - 2009.09.17 17:53:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: Kzintee on 17/09/2009 17:57:55
Originally by: Eftim S'Jet

While on the subject of Nightmares, I'm getting one very soon and am having... well... nightmares about the setup. I don't plan on dumping billions of ISK on equipment though (mainly because I don't have the said billions), I just want to get it geared with some navy mods. Anyway, I've made two possible setups I'd like to use:

Setup 1 - passive tank
4 Heat sinks, 1 Tracking Enhancer
Tracking Computer, 4 Navy hardeners (2 of each needed type), 2 Large Extenders
4 Tachyons, 2 Large named NOS
3 Shield Extender rigs

Setup 2 - active tank
DCU, 3 heat sinks, 1 tracking enhancer
Tracking Computer, 2 Navy Hardeners, Navy XL Booster, 2 Shield Boost Amplifiers
4 Tachyons, 1 Large NOS, 1 tractor (second NOS won't fit)
3 Capacitor safeguard rigs (less cap used by booster)



Neither.

Please do not neuter your NM by passive tanking it.
You have 1000DPS at 40km range. Nothing will even come close to ruining your day.

Here's the setup I run.
4x AN Tachs

2x Primary Hard
2x Secondary Hard
1x CN XLSB
1x Cap booster with 800s
1x AB or TC

4x AN HS
1x TE

3x CCC

That's it.
The XLSB and Cap booster is there to provide "Oh $%@#$" functionality only, in majority of missions they don't get used. I still don't like to take them off b/c you never know what's going to happen. Missions like Damsel in Distress where you are face to face to NPCs in their optimal...I don't even run the booster, I 3-volley the BSes.

You can use t2 Tachs but you end up trading very little (1020 DPS with AN, 1057DPS with t2 at spec at IV) DPS increase for major cap consumption.

NOS is pointless for PvE. NM shines in Amarr space where majority of NPC ships orbit around 40km.

As an example, this setup does EA5 without any problems. The only change is that instead of 4x hards it runs 3x Invuln, 1x EM hard. I DO have to run the XLSB a few times per wave (in some waves), but NM kills things so fast that I often have 2-3 minute breaks between each wave. You can blitz EA5 with just 3 waves (that's easily doable) or 2.

Kzintee
Caldari
Posted - 2009.09.17 18:03:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Builder Robert
Originally by: Arthur Frayn

Torp Golem can't hit out to 150km with Javelins. Tachyon Nightmare with Aurora-L can.


And how much less dps does that give you than the 41 km setup others are talking about?


AN MF: 55.2 total damage (32.2 EM, 23 Therm)
Aurora L: 32 (20 EM, 12 Therm)

therefore Aurora L does 57% damage of AN MF or, using 1020DPS at 41km, 591 DPS at 140km.

Qui Shon
Posted - 2009.09.17 21:47:00 - [46]
 

Edited by: Qui Shon on 17/09/2009 22:01:03
Originally by: Kzintee
As an example, this setup does EA5 without any problems.
You use the NM against Minnies Shocked.

Clearly we're not on the same page here.
Quote:
Republic Fleet Darkana
Shield: 5,500hp
Resistances: EM: 80%, Expl: 50%, Kin: 60%, Therm: 70%
Shield Boost Chance: 75%, Amount: 500hp, Duration: 10 second(s)

Armour: 4,750hp
Resistances: EM: 60% Expl: 0%, Kin: 25%, Therm: 35%


But sure, as an example I guess it's fine. Something like: "Even against one of the worst races for this ship, it still does fine in one of the toughest missions against them".

On reflection, I guess the "Shocked" is unneccessary, and you might as well use the NM if you don't have a second char to support you, since you'll be waiting on the waves regardless. I'd just have real trouble to stomach shooting at the strongest resist of the rat. It disturbs the soul, it does. Wink

I run EA 1-4, some alone, some with alt, then I go start the spawns for 5/5, loot and salvage 1 and 4 (3 is too far away, so I do that one on the fly), then come back to 5/5, to a full field of rats, with the alt remrepping me. This way I don't have to waste time waiting for the next wave, as they're all there. Can't do it like this solo though.


I like your fit Smile, finally someone who understands the benefit of a cap booster. Your fit is mostly the same as mine, except I use therm + em + invul, complex large booster and shield amp. This because I often do 2-4 missions in one go, without docking, never change specific hardeners, and always with maximum aggro, so the 19+5 cap boosters sometimes need to last a while. I prefer large shield booster, because it's less management, doesn't deplete the cap as fast. Tractor to retrieve that mission critical item and Autotargeter for more locks in util slots.

Builder Robert
Posted - 2009.09.18 00:31:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: Builder Robert on 18/09/2009 00:58:26
Originally by: Kzintee
Originally by: Builder Robert

And how much less dps does that give you than the 41 km setup others are talking about?


AN MF: 55.2 total damage (32.2 EM, 23 Therm)
Aurora L: 32 (20 EM, 12 Therm)

therefore Aurora L does 57% damage of AN MF or, using 1020DPS at 41km, 591 DPS at 140km.


It's a shame there are no long range torpedoes then, huh..

Kzintee
Caldari
Posted - 2009.09.18 01:40:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Qui Shon
You use the NM against Minnies Shocked.


But sure, as an example I guess it's fine. Something like: "Even against one of the worst races for this ship, it still does fine in one of the toughest missions against them".



That's the idea. And to be perfectly honest, NM still runs EA5 way better than my CNR ever did. Yes, they're Minnies...meh. Bite my shiny lazer azz.Very Happy

Quote:

I like your fit Smile, finally someone who understands the benefit of a cap booster. Your fit is mostly the same as mine, except I use therm + em + invul, complex large booster and shield amp. This because I often do 2-4 missions in one go, without docking, never change specific hardeners, and always with maximum aggro, so the 19+5 cap boosters sometimes need to last a while. I prefer large shield booster, because it's less management, doesn't deplete the cap as fast. Tractor to retrieve that mission critical item and Autotargeter for more locks in util slots.


What you think of this fit I'm putting together? I want 41km optimal, good tracking, AB and resists I don't have to cry about...and I think I have fit everything in.

[Nightmare, 3xHard Sel]
Amarr Navy Heat Sink
Amarr Navy Heat Sink
Amarr Navy Heat Sink
Amarr Navy Heat Sink
Tracking Enhancer II

Domination 100MN Afterburner
Caldari Navy Photon Scattering Field
Caldari Navy Photon Scattering Field
Caldari Navy Heat Dissipation Field
Gallente Navy Tracking Computer
Caldari Navy X-Large Shield Booster
Amarr Navy Heavy Capacitor Booster, Cap Booster 800

Amarr Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L
Amarr Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L
Amarr Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L
Amarr Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L
Drone Link Augmentor I
Small Tractor Beam I

Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Capacitor Control Circuit I

Sure, it's grand total of 8 minutes of cap, but I got charges...

Will Strafe
Caldari
The Praxis Initiative
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2009.09.18 03:42:00 - [49]
 

Edited by: Will Strafe on 18/09/2009 04:20:51
Edited by: Will Strafe on 18/09/2009 03:51:49
I decided for the Nightmare when sitting in a Rokh doing level 4s. Suffice to say the moment I had grinded that bil out with my best named rails I went and bought the Mare, fittings it had to earn itself. So I have tried it with best named Tachs and tech 2 modules and up to now where it's faction and a tech 2 rig and rounded out.

I've ended up with:

Lows:
3 Amarr HS
2 Domination TE

Meds:
Republic Fleet 100 MN AB
Pith X type Large SB
CN Shield Amp
Inv Field II
2 Mission specific hardeners
Capreharger II

Highs:
4 Amarr tachyons
Best named Nos
Drone augmentor

Rigs:
CCC II
2 CCC

This works no doubt, 43 km opti 992 DPS and 2:45 min with everything running, 3:17 with AB shut. Stable when SB aint running regaining cap decently. I prefer 2 TE instead of a fourth HS, even though it would take me to 1042 DPS. But those well aimed shots and not getting barely scratches, I think it's better DPS in practice.

I wouldn't set foot in a mission without AB, but thats just me I guess. Sometimes it's my best tank (AE Bonus) and sometimes it takes me 60 km to gate.

I clear AE bonus room in this without the need to warp out, tho I have to be on the mark, killing the towers with Standard crystals before I am out of range of them, and killing the 3 frigs who web and paint with hobgoblins, from there it's just kiting. EA V/V is a day in the office, sure the Darkanas tank you abit, but then again the other BS that spawn there your lasers go right through. And as long as you are keeping up with or having to wait around for new wave, can you do it any faster? No you can't, everyone is on the same timer.

I put alot of ISK in, I could buy a CN invu field it's actually quite better, but I don't need it, so I keep telling myself; I donīt need it ;).

Edit: In response to kitzine above; thats 8 minutes just firing guns and running hardeners I suppose. Prolly below a minutes worth of shield repair. Not my cup of tea when a a shield boost situation solves one problem just to create a new one. I think with your fit it has to be either a salvager or the cap booster. Not much looting going on when cargo is full of 800's, so its either one or the other. You advise against a NOS, but mine often finds its use, and it is usually when I need it the most.


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