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foobarx
Posted - 2009.09.13 01:31:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Noonesoski
So, you are saying it would take to long to update your orders while you are missioning? I find that hard to believe...

Originally by: Kerfira
Edited by: Kerfira on 12/09/2009 13:43:22
Originally by: Signore Kaeota
To be picky, he's of the opinion that:

'I do L4 missions, and selling my loot properly takes too much time.
So I refine it! But selling the minerals properly takes too much time.
So I make a BS out of it! But it still takes too long.
So I price it UNDER what it's worth!'

he actually does no mining, yet still F*cks miners / producers profit.Confused

You got it right! Participating in the trading game will earn me LESS than selling under price and spend my time on missions instead.
My guess is a large number of mission runners do the same....


That's what I find as well, for both minerals and LP. Spending enough time in the market to get the best price is less profitable than a quick sale when opportunity costs are included.

Manu Hermanus
FaDoyToy
Posted - 2009.09.13 07:52:00 - [32]
 

I used to manufacture raven battleships and sell them in Irjunen in the CPF station with the l4q18 agent, sold around 10mil over mineral cost usually (and something for like 15 mil over what I paid for the minerals). yea sure sometimes it took a few days to sell but they always seemed to sell.

always wanted to find a decent supply of below mineral cost ships, best I found was 1 t1 cruiser which I really couldn't care to take advantage of (aka waste of time)

Lord Helghast
Posted - 2009.09.14 12:56:00 - [33]
 

Ok heres the fact, and this is what i have determined from talking to many manufaturers and miners and missioners, outright selling minerals sucks. Dont compare the SELL price of minerals to the BUY price on ships... the fact is most manufacturers are using their own mineral mining ops, or missions to get the minerals, and once they have the minerals, they can make quicker better profit using their own minerals than buying them off of others on market.

Selling Tritanium can net what 2.80 on a good day in lonetrek, but sell prices are in the 4$ range... now if i mine my own tritanium, i could sell it for 2.80 (or try to undercut the high 4$ range, definitly an option but you might be waiting for a while for it to sell)

But instead of selling at the lower buy order prices, you can manufacture a ship and sell it and undercut others, as long as the price you sell the ship for beats the best price you could have made selling the minerals your still in profit.

You can buy the minerals but its just much harder, and in most cases you wont be able to beat out the corporations withing mining ops + manufacturing ops.

Leinen Valcara
Posted - 2009.09.14 13:14:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Lord Helghast
Ok heres the fact, and this is what i have determined from talking to many manufaturers and miners and missioners, outright selling minerals sucks. Dont compare the SELL price of minerals to the BUY price on ships... the fact is most manufacturers are using their own mineral mining ops, or missions to get the minerals, and once they have the minerals, they can make quicker better profit using their own minerals than buying them off of others on market.

Selling Tritanium can net what 2.80 on a good day in lonetrek, but sell prices are in the 4$ range... now if i mine my own tritanium, i could sell it for 2.80 (or try to undercut the high 4$ range, definitly an option but you might be waiting for a while for it to sell)

But instead of selling at the lower buy order prices, you can manufacture a ship and sell it and undercut others, as long as the price you sell the ship for beats the best price you could have made selling the minerals your still in profit.

You can buy the minerals but its just much harder, and in most cases you wont be able to beat out the corporations withing mining ops + manufacturing ops.


no offence, but that's a load of carp. What you were told is just a bunch of producers trying to make excuses for selling cr*p for less than it's worth. The fact is, manufacturers like that are LAZY. They don't WANT to put the effort in to find a market where there's a decent price margin, so they take a stock standard, and undercut everyone else.

For the record, I update my prices weekly, based off jita SELL prices, and still make a nice profit. Wanna see my build costs?

TRIT: ... 2.6
PYER: ... 3.6
MEXA: ... 32
ISOG: ... 51.75
NOXC: ... 80
ZYDR: ... 1750
MEGA: ... 4750

And ya know what? I make a KILLING off finding niche markets. I do, honestly. I made 10 mil + on a T1 tier 1 BS the other day. I make 5 - 8 mil per drake (though once I accidentally sold it for 4mil Embarassed), and you know what? I have one level of 'Trade', and don't update my orders. The thing is, I got off my ass, looked for a region, looked for a market, and then looked for items in that market.

The people you talked to are only making matters worse, and I'd be ashamed to call myself a producer if I held those ideals.


~~~Alt post in the off chance anyone runs into me, and steals my market Evil or Very Mad~~~

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2009.09.14 13:54:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: Kerfira on 14/09/2009 13:54:49
Originally by: Leinen Valcara
I made 10 mil + on a T1 tier 1 BS the other day.

And how long (real-life time) did that take you?
Including all the time wasted where you searched and DIDN'T find a proper market! Including time spent micromanaging buy orders etc....

10m ISK is what I make in about 12 minutes doing L4 missions.... I can then do it again, and again, and again, until the servers go down if I want to.

You may have made a nice 10-15% margin, and that's ok, but if you spent longer than 12 minutes, you're still down compared to me. If you can't repeat it as you want, you're hugely down.

Some people are willing to endure boring game-play to gain ISK, others are not.
The 'not' type of people don't care whether they sell a little under priced, as long as they don't have to spend a lot of time doing it.

People are different, and can't be measured by the same yardstick. That is what the 'opportunity-cost' crowd simply doesn't understand...

I don't WANT to put the effort into finding the best price because it's BORING (and generally not profitable compared to earning 825k/min on L4's)! Missions are of.c. boring too, but far from as boring as looking at spreadsheets!
It's not being lazy as you say, but just not wanting to do what is boring (and not profitable) to me!

Bellac
Posted - 2009.09.14 14:13:00 - [36]
 

The key to profit is patience.

I place alot of sell orders and I put up orders for a fair price - I never fill buy orders unless they are good - and everything sells eventually. I never fiddle changing my sell order price and chasing the prifit as someone places a lower price. Within a 3 month sales window the prices come back up and my stuff sells eventually. Everything has a market (well nearly) and someone someday will come along and buy what you have for sale.

I am more than happy to keep buying your undervalued products however as over time I can recycle and sell at profit so keep up the good work Razz

Lord Helghast
Posted - 2009.09.14 14:24:00 - [37]
 

Have to agree, the filling buy orders, was how i did it when i started, its best to do that when you need immediate cash, but considering well structured sell orders can net 10-15x the amount on some of the buy orders it's worth it after you get moving in eve to do it the right way.

As for mission running L4's being more cost effective than manufacturing/selling. Seriously, you have to dock and drop your stuff, you have to set the manufacturing etc, so why not just find a area where manufacuturing works via minerals bought, and also run your l4's.

The fact is it's not lazy to do it the mining way instead of the buying way. The fact is a well formed small corp could make a killing this way, strong mining ops bringing in necessary minerals, refined with a refining alt, and manufactured and sold undercutting the sell orders in the area, while still making more profit than the minerals would have made.

It's capitalism at work, theirs no 1 way to make money. Some people like hunting for niches and exploiting the crap out of them, others like the shotgun approach.

Tom Peeping
Posted - 2009.09.14 16:38:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Tom Peeping on 14/09/2009 16:40:59
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Capt Fossil
Originally by: Kerfira
I earn 820k ISK per MINUTE missioning!


Every minute, every time? My what a boring game this must be for you.

41M an hour?????? You doin lvl 5's solo in a GM ship?

Nope. Just a plain old Golem!

Read this thread for enlightenment! It's a statistics thread I've created where I present how I do missions and what I earn from them.
Note that the number given in this thread is slightly higher than in the quoted one. This is because LP price has shot through the roof since the macro'ers got banned (MORE than compensating for reduced income from salvage).

As a matter of fact, I'm a staunch supporter of CCP NERFING high-sec L4's income! If they halved it, nothing would please me more for game balance!



They did in the recent patch... It's no longer possible to deny all but the good missions. Standings with agents are now lost at a Vastly increased rate. This either means you do all the missions, or you go to mission hubs (and lose income there due to the huge percentage of salvage ninjas there.) Works out to about the same really. I used to do a lot better than 41 mill per hour. a LOT. Unfortunately, CCP has massively nerfed it, and I can't do it anymore :( I'm just glad I had saved up for my next couple of cap ships pre-patch... it takes a lot longer now.

Honestly, I'm already starting to find different sources of income. I still do L4's from time to time, but with them not as profitable, there's other ways to bring in that kind of isk, and I'll do those rather than simply accept the loss thank you very much.

Tom Peeping
Posted - 2009.09.14 16:45:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Kerfira
Edited by: Kerfira on 14/09/2009 13:54:49
Originally by: Leinen Valcara
I made 10 mil + on a T1 tier 1 BS the other day.

And how long (real-life time) did that take you?
Including all the time wasted where you searched and DIDN'T find a proper market! Including time spent micromanaging buy orders etc....

10m ISK is what I make in about 12 minutes doing L4 missions.... I can then do it again, and again, and again, until the servers go down if I want to.

You may have made a nice 10-15% margin, and that's ok, but if you spent longer than 12 minutes, you're still down compared to me. If you can't repeat it as you want, you're hugely down.

Some people are willing to endure boring game-play to gain ISK, others are not.
The 'not' type of people don't care whether they sell a little under priced, as long as they don't have to spend a lot of time doing it.

People are different, and can't be measured by the same yardstick. That is what the 'opportunity-cost' crowd simply doesn't understand...

I don't WANT to put the effort into finding the best price because it's BORING (and generally not profitable compared to earning 825k/min on L4's)! Missions are of.c. boring too, but far from as boring as looking at spreadsheets!
It's not being lazy as you say, but just not wanting to do what is boring (and not profitable) to me!



And btw... why are you suprised that you can make a lot of isk with L4's? It's nothing inappropriate that you do well out of a maruader... that's sorta an endgame ship. I didn't make anything like as much while I was in process of learning how to mission... and all that time I spent doing L4's in a BS and bringing a salvage ship later. Why is it so shocking that there's a good viable way to earn isk after you're decently skilled and using a bonused ship for the task? Honestly no nerf is needed there at all.

Pinaculus
Posted - 2009.09.30 01:46:00 - [40]
 

He's astonished because it takes a lot of skills to fly a Hulk, and it takes a lot of skills to perfect the Production skills, and he's being penalized for liking one of those Industry oriented play-styles more than mission grinding because mission grinding is so obviously hands-down better at generating isk (with a few rare exceptions).

Signore Kaeota
Caldari
Terra Incognita
Posted - 2009.09.30 02:09:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Kerfira
Edited by: Kerfira on 14/09/2009 13:54:49
Originally by: Leinen Valcara
I made 10 mil + on a T1 tier 1 BS the other day.

And how long (real-life time) did that take you?
Including all the time wasted where you searched and DIDN'T find a proper market! Including time spent micromanaging buy orders etc....


F*** it, I'll post with my main.

How long? I dunno, lets see...

Half an hour to find the region.
Three minutes total (roughly) in button pressing.
...
...

That's it?

Another one sold the other day ^-^ true, they don't sell fast, but I make roughly the same percentage profit off a drake, and they /do/ sell fast; so I'm happy. This was my point. If you read the post I quoted, you'll see that he basically said it's impossible to turn a profit, or if you do, it's going to be minuscule. I pointed out that it's their own fault for simply doing it where everyone else does.

For the record; I'm a miner - not a trader. I don't play the buy order / sell order game. I look at the market once a day, if that, and adjust all my orders accordingly. How do I do this? Simple, I moved out of the major trade hubs.

I know I can't repeat it, and I know missions makes sh*t tonnes more than mining does, even for the same skill training (SP), time etc. That's one of my biggest problems at the moment. But ya know what? I couldn't really care if you made 120mil every minute mission running, doing it kills me it's so boring - where as I actually enjoy mining. So at the end of the day? I still prefer my method to yours.


In the end, this post winded up several times longer than I wanted it to be...

Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
Posted - 2009.09.30 02:33:00 - [42]
 

This whole thread is garbage.

In Jita. From minerals purchased in Jita.
Ship margins are 5-25%.

If the market moves a bunch and ships are cheaper then cost,
then reprocessors quickly buy them up and turn them back into minerals.

I don't see anyone selling for 20% of cost.

Tuvar Hiede
Caldari
Quovis
Posted - 2009.09.30 07:54:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Kerfira
The OP is forgetting one essential part of selling stuff...

REAL LIFE TIME!

If selling something cheap will save me having to change my order every 5 minutes to beat the people who undercut me, I'll do it! As I'm earning 50m/hour doing L4 missions, that is FAR more profitable for me than playing the 0.01 ISK game!

I take the minerals I get from mission loot, refine them, build BS or BC's, and sell them at a relative low price. This saves me a lot of time.... I don't CARE if I could have gotten 3m more by playing trader!

You may see it as below-price. Other might see it as the optimal price for their play-style.
'Opportunity Cost' is not necessarily based on ISK...



I understand your POV, but I believe in RL terms it's akin to being a lumberjack. U make $45 an hour which is your primary income, but then on the side you make those silly wooden log deer you see at chrsitmas (Maybe it's a regional thing) and sell them for $5 because they were made from scrap. Yes your $$ invest wes minimal, but you didnt figure that time = money. That deer you made took 30 minish meaning if you cut timber you'd have made around 22.50, but instead you sold a deer for $5. Kinda make alittle more sense?

Signore Kaeota
Caldari
Terra Incognita
Posted - 2009.09.30 08:11:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: Signore Kaeota on 30/09/2009 08:11:29
Originally by: Tuvar Hiede
I understand your POV, but I believe in RL terms it's akin to being a lumberjack. U make $45 an hour which is your primary income, but then on the side you make those silly wooden log deer you see at chrsitmas (Maybe it's a regional thing) and sell them for $5 because they were made from scrap. Yes your $$ invest wes minimal, but you didnt figure that time = money. That deer you made took 30 minish meaning if you cut timber you'd have made around 22.50, but instead you sold a deer for $5. Kinda make alittle more sense?


Regrettably, eve takes all of a minute (of your RL time) to build something. It's "Click on blueprint, click where to make it, click make, click make again", log off, come back tomorrow and your scrap is now a lean (or not so much in some cases), mean, fighting machine... for you to sell for less than it's worth.

EDIT: fixed quote.

Sidrat Flush
Caldari
Eve Industrial Corp
Posted - 2009.09.30 11:44:00 - [45]
 

A ship is reprocessed using a maxed character so there's no additional units wasted. Whoever made it COULD have used a perfect blueprint but it's doubtful so let's assume there was a bit of extra materials required to build it in the first place.

The builder, lets call him Geppeto shall we, was feeling mighty pleased with himself and thinks I'll put it on the market in the local mission hub where it's BOUND to sell fast.

So he does that - the next day.

Overnight the mineral prices have gone sky high by 5-10% across the board, not even pyerite has been this high.

Geppeto comes back and places the shiny just polished ship on to the market at what he believes is a reasonable profit and see's it get purchased within a blink of an eye.

His son comes running through the workshop with the news about the mineral prices going up and the old carpenter Geppeto cry's but is grateful that his son is made of wood so he can go back to the carpentry trade.

Moral of this story - CHECK MINERAL PRICES Daily.

How much is a batch of veldspar? 333 units, what would you pay if the price of trit was at 2.6 per unit? According to my spreadsheet at the above price if you're paying more than 7.81 for Veldspar you're getting ripped off. But who knows the price of tritanium may increase in which case you've got yourself an early bargain, but if it's falls further you're even worse off than before.

Or you would be if this was controlled like a real stock market where asset value and loss was measured daily. The banks foreclosed a lot of business and houses because they lost their value YET the homes were in good shape the land was being used yet, because they MUST balance the books on a daily/weekly basis any negative amount for more than two quarters is a bad thing.

I know it's the same for White Glaze as the constituent parts of it can be obtained for 76,961. per block. Why would you buy Ice on the market if it's costing you more than 90K at a time?

Two more points I think.

You've got two piles of minerals of roughly the same value you can only pick ONE pile to build either one t1 frigate or enough missiles to use up roughly the same value, what do you build in order to sell for the most profit?

Finally moving away from even a mission hub can be bad news as the turn over can be VERY slow, ideally it will be near low sec so you'll get the passing pod pilot who desperately needs a ship, mods and ammo to get back in the action, but there's a reason why very few people are there anyway, sadly it's up to CCP to identify those areas and start spreading the agents around a bit more and increasing the number of agents as well.

To answer the question above based on the mineral prices I took yesterday and putting a kestrel against 7,500 units of Scourge Heavy Missile, using Eve Centrals Max Buy Prices for a quickish sale here's the breakdown

Kestrel - 0 ME PE 5 Mineral Value to Build One Unit 165,331.31 - Expected Sale Price p/u 200,000 Profit 34,668.69

Scourge Heavy Missiles - 0 ME PE 5 Mineral Value to Build 75 Runs (7,500 units) 167,940.00 - Expected Sale Price p/u 36.00 Profit 102,060.00

I'm pretty sure they'll take around the same time to build as well so the manufacturing costs are going to be close, which hurts the kestrel profit even more!

There's a third option though - build a kestrel and use it to build a manticore so you can have fun in it!

Tanja Cyprus
Posted - 2009.09.30 11:45:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Noonesoski
If you say so, where are you selling those ships by the way?

In my mission system of.c..... Anything else would waste too much money by spending time on transport!
Not telling where of.c. Where I mission is a closely guarded secret (this is my posting alt by the way).

I earn 820k ISK per MINUTE missioning! I can't make that much extra profit by moving the ship elsewhere! If someone else wants to... LET THEM!

The ships have always sold within a maximum of 3 days!

However, you are missing the point. It is not a matter of what I do! What matters is that a large part of EVE's population (the mission runners) get their minerals more or less as a 'side product' from missioning. Selling them is easier in ship form, and we don't care if we don't optimise to the last ISK in profit. Thus you get people selling at lower prices.
Among the other mission runners I speak to, most gets rid of their loot minerals this way. Its simply the most effective way.

The OP opened this subject, and I just provided some insight into why this is. There's just a different perspective between how traders/builders see things, and how mission runners see things.

Traders/builders have spent a lot of money and a little time acquiring their goods, so they NEED to get their money back BEFORE they can make profit.
We OTOH have spent some time looting and no money to acquire our loot minerals, so even if we sell a bit lower it doesn't affect our profit much. Remember, minerals are just a small part of mission profits (my current average is 18% of total mission income, though still about 2/3 in value of what a hulk can mine).

A matter of perspective really. Traders think in ISK, we usually think in time.


Interesting how opportunity cost is your own argument for doing the stuff as well as the counterargument why you shouldn't do that stuff .... Maybe you need to understand the concept better.

Ever considered not looting?

And I don't see the problem of putting up sell orders for minerals unless maybe you mission in low sec ...

Signore Kaeota
Caldari
Terra Incognita
Posted - 2009.09.30 13:56:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Tanja Cyprus
And I don't see the problem of putting up sell orders for minerals unless maybe you mission in low sec ...


It's very simple really - he doesn't want to check his orders. ever. As minerals fluctuate a lot more than a BS, he simply builds a BS. It's laziness, not a serious problem (no offence meant to anyone here).

Eana
Caldari
Posted - 2009.09.30 13:57:00 - [48]
 

Quote:
And how long (real-life time) did that take you?
Including all the time wasted where you searched and DIDN'T find a proper market! Including time spent micromanaging buy orders etc....

10m ISK is what I make in about 12 minutes doing L4 missions.... I can then do it again, and again, and again, until the servers go down if I want to.


Many mission runners I see seem to take this stance. How much time IRL does it take me to set up my orders etc? About an hour a week.

The 1isking game is a bit of a copout, yes if you are trading trit in jita you'll be 1'isked every 5 minutes, but placing sell orders for your ships and buying your minerals you won't have that problem.

In total I spend about 2 hours a week playing eve I get about 200m profit. So I make 100m an hour. Spending the time to put your minerals, modules in the right orders and right location DOES pay, and for the time it takes it pays well.

Moaning about 1-isking and claiming it takes hours to place orders is not a valid reason to choose sub-optimal marketing methods.
However being lazy IS a legitimate reason, if your too lazy to do it thats fine. I accept that, but don't try to blaim factors that are not true.


Just so people get an idea of how I play... I log into eve each morning for about 10 minutes to put my newly constructed ships on the market and start building more ships to put up for sale tommorow, while I eat my porridge and drink my tea. That comes to some 1h10 throughout the week, also during the week ill spend an hour slow boating my way to jita / amarr to buy minerals, while placing new orders for minerals / modules in my trading region. (I go TO jita one week and BACK the next week becuase im too lazy / dont have time to fly back). I have some 150 buy / sell orders up, I buy a range of modules and ore for 30% of its reprocess value, and minerals at full price from jita / amarr, then I build ships with the minerals for an average of an additional 20% on top. I make roughly 28% on each isk I invest in manufacturing.

Now im sure mission runners who play for a few hours a day, far more than myself, could spare the 10 minutes a day to dispose of their modules and loot more profitably. In fact it'd be far less than 10 minutes, 10 minutes a day is the time I take to manage a massive line of ship manufature.

Dandy Lyon
Posted - 2009.09.30 15:52:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Sidrat Flush


Or you would be if this was controlled like a real stock market where asset value and loss was measured daily. The banks foreclosed a lot of business and houses because they lost their value YET the homes were in good shape the land was being used yet, because they MUST balance the books on a daily/weekly basis any negative amount for more than two quarters is a bad thing.




What??? Banks don't forclose because their books look bad.... They foreclose because somebody isn't paying them.

Ukucia
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.09.30 17:10:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Kerfira
Making a ship is easy, much easier than hauling the minerals and managing the 7 orders.

You know what's easier?

Right-click on the minerals and click "sell". No need to bother setting up sell orders if you don't give a damn about the ISK from the minerals. Heck, just right-click and hit "trash".

Sidrat Flush
Caldari
Eve Industrial Corp
Posted - 2009.09.30 19:18:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Dandy Lyon
Originally by: Sidrat Flush


Or you would be if this was controlled like a real stock market where asset value and loss was measured daily. The banks foreclosed a lot of business and houses because they lost their value YET the homes were in good shape the land was being used yet, because they MUST balance the books on a daily/weekly basis any negative amount for more than two quarters is a bad thing.




What??? Banks don't forclose because their books look bad.... They foreclose because somebody isn't paying them.


You forget the smile, the sweaty handshake and the free coffee to induce people into signing an agreement only one side believes it can keep up, while the other side is on commision.

I haven't held a bank account for 8 years and I'm a very happy guy because of it, even though I still get cold-called asking if I want life insurance! It sounded like a threat but I still said no.

The human beings that are currently living in the sewers are not to blame (much) the bankers and tele-sales staff should be held accountable. I will go as far to say with "if a seller in financial products has a default rate over 45% they should be prosecuted for fraud at the very least"

Three paragraphs is enogh I reckon.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2009.09.30 22:37:00 - [52]
 

Edited by: Kerfira on 30/09/2009 22:40:14
Originally by: Tanja Cyprus
Interesting how opportunity cost is your own argument for doing the stuff as well as the counterargument why you shouldn't do that stuff .... Maybe you need to understand the concept better.

I understand it perfectly, but you completely missed the point too....

The question I was answering was why people sold stuff below what manufacturers think is the right price! I simply provided that answer, AND the reasoning behind it.

Yes, I could make more money off building BS if I bought minerals and built a lot of BS..... But I don't want to do that! Other mission runners don't want to do that either!

However, we do get about 2/3 as many minerals (by value, not amounts) as a high-spec Hulk pilot does by mining with missiles. We want to liquidate those at decent a price with the least amount of hazzle. The best way of doing that is by building a BS now and then and sell it.
Originally by: Tanja Cyprus
Ever considered not looting?

I'm a compulsive gatherer.... No!
Originally by: Tanja Cyprus
And I don't see the problem of putting up sell orders for minerals unless maybe you mission in low sec ...

It's more hazzle... I have to keep checking them to do the 0.01 ISK game (I HAVE tried) unless I sell them ridiculously low....

Again, bear in mind that the above was not a rationalisation why the way I do it is BETTER at making money manufacturing than buying and building... it isn't!
It DOES however explain why there are people putting stuff on the market below what builders think are logical prices.
Originally by: Ukucia
Originally by: Kerfira
Making a ship is easy, much easier than hauling the minerals and managing the 7 orders.

You know what's easier?

Right-click on the minerals and click "sell". No need to bother setting up sell orders if you don't give a damn about the ISK from the minerals. Heck, just right-click and hit "trash".

Didn't say I didn't care.... I said I wanted to get rid of them with as much profit and little hazzle as possible....
The optimal solution for that is to build a BS and sell it slightly below price.

Sidrat Flush
Caldari
Eve Industrial Corp
Posted - 2009.10.01 01:21:00 - [53]
 

How do you know the Battleship is the most profitable, take a look at the kestrel vs heavy missile comparision above (I think it was this thread) and you'll see that for a very similar value of minerals you turn a bigger profit with missiles than you would with the kestrel, I haven't attempted any other comparison of course, but you're free to download the spreadsheet to take a look at how it breaks down.

A new one will be forthcoming soon.

Signore Kaeota
Caldari
Terra Incognita
Posted - 2009.10.01 05:18:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Sidrat Flush
How do you know the Battleship is the most profitable, take a look at the kestrel vs heavy missile comparision above (I think it was this thread) and you'll see that for a very similar value of minerals you turn a bigger profit with missiles than you would with the kestrel, I haven't attempted any other comparison of course, but you're free to download the spreadsheet to take a look at how it breaks down.

A new one will be forthcoming soon.



Because ammo takes time to sell. The kestrel will sell in one go.

Sheash, I'm a miner and I get it...

Sidrat Flush
Caldari
Eve Industrial Corp
Posted - 2009.10.01 12:34:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Signore Kaeota
Originally by: Sidrat Flush
How do you know the Battleship is the most profitable, take a look at the kestrel vs heavy missile comparision above (I think it was this thread) and you'll see that for a very similar value of minerals you turn a bigger profit with missiles than you would with the kestrel, I haven't attempted any other comparison of course, but you're free to download the spreadsheet to take a look at how it breaks down.

A new one will be forthcoming soon.



Because ammo takes time to sell. The kestrel will sell in one go.

Sheash, I'm a miner and I get it...


That's insanity. The mineral cost was comparitive and yet the profit difference was three to one in the favour of ammo - you'd give up earning three times more just so you can have your wallet blink sooner and just the one time? 7,500 units of any ammo it's that much so it won't take long to sell, increase the numbers by ten or twenty for a more realistic quote and you've just used all them minerals it takes to build kestrels for a lower profit, where as you could have used fewer mineral types (trit and pye I believe) for three times more than you'd have got for selling kestrels.

Milky Whyte
Posted - 2009.10.01 18:23:00 - [56]
 

@Kerfira: you mention that you run multiple accounts for mission running. It's a given a that the more accounts you run simultaneously, the higher your isk/hour. I figure a miner multi-boxing 40 hulks/haulers will beat most traders in the isk game, even when selling minerals far below value - that's not very difficult :).

You also assume that a quick sale equals more ISK - that is only true if the allowed number of orders is maxed out and you can't put up any more. If you use, say, 10 out of 20 orders at any given time, you might as well up the price a bit and give your orders time to be filled - it's not like you're losing anything by doing so (except a very small broker fee).

@Sidrat: as a manufacturer, you will most likely try to diversify your product palette. Ammo sells very slowly at the margins you're talking about. Ships give you a quick sale at a lower margin, ammo is more of a slow and steady income - both are nice, but as you get richer and have to move a larger volume of products, you'll want to concentrate on the former (generally speaking).

Signore Kaeota
Caldari
Terra Incognita
Posted - 2009.10.01 18:40:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Sidrat Flush
That's insanity. The mineral cost was comparitive and yet the profit difference was three to one in the favour of ammo - you'd give up earning three times more just so you can have your wallet blink sooner and just the one time? 7,500 units of any ammo it's that much so it won't take long to sell, increase the numbers by ten or twenty for a more realistic quote and you've just used all them minerals it takes to build kestrels for a lower profit, where as you could have used fewer mineral types (trit and pye I believe) for three times more than you'd have got for selling kestrels.



As I said - look up a definition of the word 'lazy', and you'll find 'Eve Mission wh*re.'
Personally? I sell ammo, ships, mods... generally anything I make isk on, but we're not talking about me.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2009.10.01 18:52:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Milky Whyte
@Kerfira: you mention that you run multiple accounts for mission running. It's a given a that the more accounts you run simultaneously, the higher your isk/hour. I figure a miner multi-boxing 40 hulks/haulers will beat most traders in the isk game, even when selling minerals far below value - that's not very difficult :).

When I use most, I use 3 characters. One fully active, one a Domi semi-afk, and a 3rd providing DPS where needed.
The figure I use for ISK/minute is when I run only one character (which is most of the time since I can do even one Golem semi-afk). Obviously the Domi doesn't make as much as the Golem....
Originally by: Milky Whyte
You also assume that a quick sale equals more ISK - that is only true if the allowed number of orders is maxed out and you can't put up any more. If you use, say, 10 out of 20 orders at any given time, you might as well up the price a bit and give your orders time to be filled - it's not like you're losing anything by doing so (except a very small broker fee).

I never said anything about 'quick' being a priority. I said 'without hazzle'! If I sell my minerals as a BS, I KNOW I can just put up the order (slightly cheaper) and I'll never need to look at it again.

Signore Kaeota
Caldari
Terra Incognita
Posted - 2009.10.01 19:00:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Milky Whyte
@Kerfira: you mention that you run multiple accounts for mission running. It's a given a that the more accounts you run simultaneously, the higher your isk/hour. I figure a miner multi-boxing 40 hulks/haulers will beat most traders in the isk game, even when selling minerals far below value - that's not very difficult :).

When I use most, I use 3 characters. One fully active, one a Domi semi-afk, and a 3rd providing DPS where needed.
The figure I use for ISK/minute is when I run only one character (which is most of the time since I can do even one Golem semi-afk). Obviously the Domi doesn't make as much as the Golem....
Originally by: Milky Whyte
You also assume that a quick sale equals more ISK - that is only true if the allowed number of orders is maxed out and you can't put up any more. If you use, say, 10 out of 20 orders at any given time, you might as well up the price a bit and give your orders time to be filled - it's not like you're losing anything by doing so (except a very small broker fee).

I never said anything about 'quick' being a priority. I said 'without hazzle'! If I sell my minerals as a BS, I KNOW I can just put up the order (slightly cheaper) and I'll never need to look at it again.



PS. its 'hassle'. Sorry, I hate grammar ****'s too, but that's been bugging me everytime I read this thread.

MightyRhinox
Minmatar
Rhinox Heavy Industries
Twilight Military Industrial Complex Alliance
Posted - 2009.10.02 04:39:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Sidrat Flush

That's insanity. The mineral cost was comparitive and yet the profit difference was three to one in the favour of ammo - you'd give up earning three times more just so you can have your wallet blink sooner and just the one time?



Yes, this is called a trade off, doing one thing denies you the opportunity to do another, an opportunity cost.
For our mission running manufacturer here, the value of having his wallet flash sooner and not having to track an order every few minutes is more valuable to him than the revenue he misses out on by making the Kestrel.

Your value judgement lies in the opposite direction and never the 'twain shall meet.

Value judgements are a tricky thing, there a lot of things that can't be given an arbitrary figure value and most are very personal.

But speaking of revenue, the figures you quoted for your scourge vs. kestrel argument are way off. A Kestrel gives a 10.59% profit and the Scourge Missles 12.66% with the figures you quoted. 75 runs of scourge will also take four hours to build, a single kestrel takes one hour.


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