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gnomer
Ministry of War
Posted - 2009.09.07 20:44:00 - [1]
 


So I created a new ALT.

No skill selection, I couldn't see what skills each choice (race, bloddline, career) had, AND I started the game with 56,000 skill points.

When did this all change??

Manu Hermanus
FaDoyToy
Posted - 2009.09.07 20:54:00 - [2]
 

a while ago, should probably pay attention to patch notes and devblogs and stuff

but you do get a 100% skill training bonus up to 1.6mil sp, and 2 free remaps so at 1.6mil sp you should be better off then an 800k sp character at 1.6mil sp.

CCP Fallout

Posted - 2009.09.08 11:57:00 - [3]
 

Here's some light reading from a few months ago :)

your revamped rookie coming to an asteroid field near you! part one

Carakk Des'ui
Posted - 2009.09.08 14:43:00 - [4]
 

I noticed this recently too, i preferred the old way :P I liked starting with skills that went with my story.

Jainia Soltella
Posted - 2009.09.08 15:34:00 - [5]
 

New way is 10000% better

Less than a week and you can have a Cyno/scout-alt who can cloak, fit an MWD, tackle, fly a hauler, and keep the free clone to boot.

Only thing I miss from the old system is the 45 minute Bestower alt :-)

Jim Nakamura
Posted - 2009.09.08 17:29:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Carakk Des'ui
I noticed this recently too, i preferred the old way :P I liked starting with skills that went with my story.


You also had several bloodline which were, to all intents and purposes, completely and utterly useless due to their awful attribute distrubutions. At least now you can pick a race etc. solely on the basis of looks and/or RP reasons without gimping yourself horrendously, and the boosted learning rate to 1.6m SP more than makes up for the lack of starter skills.

Witcher
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2009.10.20 20:10:00 - [7]
 

I would also strongly agree that old school way of making chars was much better in a sense of RP and overall kinda game feeling.

Now ofc its much more functional, but it also became kinda more generic. You know like there are always great things out there, which eventually become commercialized, which is bad. I think its kinda same stuff which happened here.

Being able to select your attribute and not dependent on race, takes out certain zzazzz from the game :)

Although I would still have to say that having an army of 1.6 mil alts serving various purposes certainly helps !

Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.10.20 20:59:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 20/10/2009 21:04:57
Originally by: Witcher
I would also strongly agree that old school way of making chars was much better in a sense of RP and overall kinda game feeling.

Now ofc its much more functional, but it also became kinda more generic. You know like there are always great things out there, which eventually become commercialized, which is bad. I think its kinda same stuff which happened here.

Being able to select your attribute and not dependent on race, takes out certain zzazzz from the game :)

Although I would still have to say that having an army of 1.6 mil alts serving various purposes certainly helps !


I agree. It's much better when newbies have to recreate their characters because they picked a suboptimal race/ancestry. I definitely miss seeing 90% of new players being Caldari Achura, too. Having to look online for the best race/class combinations to optimize attributes BEFORE even playing the game is just great for new players.

Illectroculus Defined
No Bull Ships
Posted - 2009.10.20 21:57:00 - [9]
 

It's great that I'm now seeing way more interesting pilots than the endless armies of caldari achura but I do find the starting skills somewhat samey - everyone has electronics 3 so everyone now gets the 15% CPU bonus. I'd prefer to see more racial flavour in the base skills

Qui Shon
Posted - 2009.10.22 14:52:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Qui Shon on 23/10/2009 14:55:11



What happened was they dumbed it down by completely removing any consequences from your choice.

Originally by: Kahega Amielden

I agree. It's much better when newbies have to recreate their characters because they picked a suboptimal race/ancestry. I definitely miss seeing 90% of new players being Caldari Achura, too. Having to look online for the best race/class combinations to optimize attributes BEFORE even playing the game is just great for new players.


You didn't have to do research before playing at all, simply trying out the game was quite sufficient. Qui, my now close to 50m main, is my third char. The first and second lasted 2 days, and 6 days respectively. You are tying to be ironic in your second sentence, but it was indeed much better. I don't lament the loss of two experimental characters at all, it was a choice I made, to scrap them.

I enjoyed those free trials very much, so I *then* did some research, crunched some numbers, and created...well, me. Sure enough, I still got it slightly "wrong", and feel I have one extra point in willpower that would have been of much more use elsewhere. Thus, a consequence of inadequate research, that I'm still living with. Also this handsome face, of course.

That's what this game is slowly but surely removing, choices with far reaching consequences. First stats, now pre-req's, with more guaranteed to follow.

If there was a mistake in the old system, it was giving Achura a significantly better dumpstat then any other race/blodine. Though iirc, Khanid Cyberknights were pretty sweet to, and better looking to boot.

Arte
The Darkness Within
Posted - 2009.10.24 12:14:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Qui Shon
You didn't have to do research before playing at all, simply trying out the game was quite sufficient. Qui, my now close to 50m main, is my third char. The first and second lasted 2 days, and 6 days respectively. You are tying to be ironic in your second sentence, but it was indeed much better. I don't lament the loss of two experimental characters at all, it was a choice I made, to scrap them..

Your opinion of course, but I disagree when you suggest that starting with a character and scrapping it repeatedly till you were happier is a viable way to play the game for most people.

When I started this account, I had no idea what I was doing. I grabbed a trial from a game magazine review and started playing, not having a clue what I was getting into, nor the consequences of my decisions during character creation. I had a krapton of charisma because I thought that would help me interact with players and NPC's alike, as it does in RPGSExclamation

Further to this, I had no idea what I was doing, or what I wanted to do in the game when I got started and so was blind, with regards to my game style when I first got going. The only thing I got right, was being recruited into a player corp early on. Best move I ever made.

I only knew 2 things. This was as close to multiplayer Elite as I could find at the time so it was the game for me
Secondly, I knew that starting again after I'd grinded the learning skills wasn't an option for me.

The NPE is now something to actually recommend to folks and I'm very much glad that they've developed it to where it is now. You can now make informed choices which you can stand by. This is very much different from the arguement that you should pay for your mistakes; that mantra shouldn't be upheld in the first weeks of a game, it only becomes valid when you are - (or should be) informed.

Krennel Darius
Caldari
EON Solutions
The Laughing Men
Posted - 2009.10.24 17:58:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: gnomer

So I created a new ALT.

No skill selection, I couldn't see what skills each choice (race, bloddline, career) had, AND I started the game with 56,000 skill points.

When did this all change??


Don't complain, when I created my character almost 4 years ago, I started with half as much SP, had no 100% skill time multiplier, and picked crappy attributes for myself as I had no idea what they did, and I had no neural remap to fix them. Also, I didn't have a skill queue. You youngsters have it easy.

Qui Shon
Posted - 2009.10.25 13:05:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Arte
Your opinion of course, but I disagree when you suggest that starting with a character and scrapping it repeatedly till you were happier is a viable way to play the game for most people.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's the way virtually *all* games with attrib systems are, you have to pick at the start before you really know what the effects are in game. (That some games share systems makes it a bit easier of course). So once you see a bit about game mechanics, you have a choice whether to continue with your first creation or go back and make what you really want. Eve is now an exception to this, where your initial choice is completely meaningless, not a choice at all.

Sure they tend to dumb down the rpg mechanics in newer iterations of games in the last few years, like SS2 to Bioshock, or Elder Scrolls 3 to 4, or Fallout 1&2(even tactics) to 3. So I guess it's only in line with the times to dumb down Eve's character creation too, to give in to the Everything NAO! easymode loving console crowds. But it does mean an inferior product.

Alt Tabbed
Posted - 2009.10.25 13:47:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Qui Shon
Originally by: Arte
Your opinion of course, but I disagree when you suggest that starting with a character and scrapping it repeatedly till you were happier is a viable way to play the game for most people.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's the way virtually *all* games with attrib systems are, you have to pick at the start before you really know what the effects are in game. (That some games share systems makes it a bit easier of course). So once you see a bit about game mechanics, you have a choice whether to continue with your first creation or go back and make what you really want. Eve is now an exception to this, where your initial choice is completely meaningless, not a choice at all.

Sure they tend to dumb down the rpg mechanics in newer iterations of games in the last few years, like SS2 to Bioshock, or Elder Scrolls 3 to 4, or Fallout 1&2(even tactics) to 3. So I guess it's only in line with the times to dumb down Eve's character creation too, to give in to the Everything NAO! easymode loving console crowds. But it does mean an inferior product.



True but..in those other games...do you only get 3 Char slots? Do you only have the option to level 1 toon at a time(a very specific time ie for the next 3 days I'll be leveling Qui to gunnery 4)? And last but not least....does it take 24+ hours to delete a toon on those games?



Qi Shi
Tactical Trading Partnership
Posted - 2009.10.26 19:58:00 - [15]
 

The new way is definitely better for new players. Although it might be interesting to at least have some difference between the races and bloodlines.

Qui Shon
Posted - 2009.10.27 01:16:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Alt Tabbed
True but..in those other games...do you only get 3 Char slots? Do you only have the option to level 1 toon at a time(a very specific time ie for the next 3 days I'll be leveling Qui to gunnery 4)? And last but not least....does it take 24+ hours to delete a toon on those games?


I don't really see what your point is?

But yes, usually you can only level 1 character at a time, and in all other games I've played it's done by doing stuff in game, aka grinding, not by setting a skill and logging off. So for those with patience, but not that much play time, it's infinitely easier to "level" a character in Eve.

Shassandra
Gallente
B'oreing B'stards
Posted - 2009.10.30 01:24:00 - [17]
 

So you get to have the consequences of choosing which skills you need to buy to train right off the bat, often having no isk to buy at least some of the more advanced skills from start.

It's not dumbing down Eve, it's making it fair for everyone. I'm Jin-Mei, I had no idea my start 7 or so points in Charisma were bad for me, and finally finding out about it 3 months down the road when I really started frequenting the Help channel, the decision whether to continue or make "a typical Achura elitism n00b char" was very much made.
At least now, everyone start off in the same boat, and can go from there.!

Qui Shon
Posted - 2009.10.30 08:26:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Shassandra
So you get to have the consequences of choosing which skills you need to buy to train right off the bat, often having no isk to buy at least some of the more advanced skills from start.

It's not dumbing down Eve, it's making it fair for everyone. I'm Jin-Mei, I had no idea my start 7 or so points in Charisma were bad for me, and finally finding out about it 3 months down the road when I really started frequenting the Help channel, the decision whether to continue or make "a typical Achura elitism n00b char" was very much made.
At least now, everyone start off in the same boat, and can go from there.!


You may like it more, and there's no sense arguing about taste, but it's simply undeniable that it is in fact dumbed down. These days you need to know less and understand less when creating a char, and you can correct any mistakes you make later. That's dumbing it down, plain and simple. Like a textbook example.

Shassandra
Gallente
B'oreing B'stards
Posted - 2009.10.30 09:55:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Qui Shon
Originally by: Shassandra
So you get to have the consequences of choosing which skills you need to buy to train right off the bat, often having no isk to buy at least some of the more advanced skills from start.

It's not dumbing down Eve, it's making it fair for everyone. I'm Jin-Mei, I had no idea my start 7 or so points in Charisma were bad for me, and finally finding out about it 3 months down the road when I really started frequenting the Help channel, the decision whether to continue or make "a typical Achura elitism n00b char" was very much made.
At least now, everyone start off in the same boat, and can go from there.!


You may like it more, and there's no sense arguing about taste, but it's simply undeniable that it is in fact dumbed down. These days you need to know less and understand less when creating a char, and you can correct any mistakes you make later. That's dumbing it down, plain and simple. Like a textbook example.


At least now we actually have some variations of characters, instead of 95% Achura because "it's stats are pure God!!!". If that's the result of "dumbing down the game", then they can dumb it down any day as long as it adds variations.

Dretzle Omega
Caldari
Global Economy Experts
Posted - 2009.10.30 15:08:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Qui Shon
Originally by: Shassandra
So you get to have the consequences of choosing which skills you need to buy to train right off the bat, often having no isk to buy at least some of the more advanced skills from start.

It's not dumbing down Eve, it's making it fair for everyone. I'm Jin-Mei, I had no idea my start 7 or so points in Charisma were bad for me, and finally finding out about it 3 months down the road when I really started frequenting the Help channel, the decision whether to continue or make "a typical Achura elitism n00b char" was very much made.
At least now, everyone start off in the same boat, and can go from there.!


You may like it more, and there's no sense arguing about taste, but it's simply undeniable that it is in fact dumbed down. These days you need to know less and understand less when creating a char, and you can correct any mistakes you make later. That's dumbing it down, plain and simple. Like a textbook example.


Okay, let's say it is completely dumbing it down. You're right, you don't have to do as much research to get into the game....

That is a good thing. Remember, new players ARE dumb (well, I mean, not knowledgeable about the inner workings of Eve). We want the new player experience to be as dumb as possible while still showing them the complexity and fun Eve has to offer and not ruin the rest of Eve.

The rest of Eve doesn't get "dumbed down". Just the stuff for new players. That is a good thing. It gets more players into Eve, which is what we want. (Well, maybe not you, but CCP does.) Those that Eve is not fit for will still get turned away at some point. This is better than turning away those that would like Eve simply because the new player creation process is too complicated to get through, or they feel they need to spend a few weeks of research before they can create a character.

Qui Shon
Posted - 2009.10.30 15:49:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Qui Shon on 30/10/2009 15:50:00
Originally by: Shassandra
At least now we actually have some variations of characters, instead of 95% Achura because "it's stats are pure God!!!". If that's the result of "dumbing down the game", then they can dumb it down any day as long as it adds variations.


Cosmetic variaton only, at the cost of virtually obliterating variation from "under the hood" so to speak. You value the former while ignoring the latter. I value the latter more then I value the former, but I don't ignore either. So I feel that actual, meaningful variation has been *reduced*, not increased. Do you understand?

Only some diehard Cha 3 people stay out of the grey goo blender everyone else is in anymore, when it comes to functionality.

But yeah, like I already said in this thread, making the Achura dumpstat significantly better then anyone elses, alterntively making Charisma the least useful attribute by far, that was the combination of mistakes / poor design that caused the Achura explosion. That, and the fact that portraits don't mean a whole lot. The lacking aestethics of the Achura male might have mattered more if Ambulation had been deployed already.

Heavy handed as usual, CCP "fixed" this, by removing all differences that mattered, instead of balancing the old system.
Originally by: Dretzle Omega
... and not ruin the rest of Eve.

The rest of Eve doesn't get "dumbed down". Just the stuff for new players.
That is a good thing. It gets more players into Eve, which is what we want. (Well, maybe not you, but CCP does.)


You're an optimist, I can tell. I don't share your rosy vision of the future. See, there's an inherent contradiction in the above when you take it to the logical conclusion (more=better). The problem is that to attract more and more people, Eve will have to be dumbed down again and again, because the masses don't want complexity, they don't want choices with consequences, they don't want harsh. The masses want easymode har har purty explosions, and if CCP wants to grow and grow and grow, well, there's only one way to become mega-huge.

I.e. if they want to step out of the niche that they are in, and truly attract the mainstream millions, there's only one way to achieve that. But it comes at the cost of diehard fans that many niche products enjoy. In other words, it indeed means "ruining Eve", to use your term.

That's my fear, anyway.

Foraven
Gallente
Posted - 2009.11.11 03:17:00 - [22]
 

One problem i find with the new system is the over abundance of specialist ALTs. Player no longer just play the game, they feel the need to have alts for every possible purpose they may have in mind. Playing the game has no consequences now, you can fix your mistakes later or start a new char and bring it up very quickly. There is no point in having 50 millions sp when you can create a specialist ALT that won't need an expensive clone... And making isks is just a matter of having an army of "slave" alts rather than having to deal with other players to earn it.



 

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