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N Ano
Caldari
Templars of Space
Posted - 2009.09.06 23:19:00 - [1]
 

I solo lvl 4 missions in a nighthawk at the minute and i was wondering which of the two i should get next? opinions and fits are welcome

AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2009.09.06 23:20:00 - [2]
 

Golem does missions faster and makes more ISK.

Manu Hermanus
FaDoyToy
Posted - 2009.09.07 03:34:00 - [3]
 

golem, I have no idea why people keep saying to use t3 cruisers for missions get a marauder!

Badmin
Posted - 2009.09.07 06:12:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Badmin on 07/09/2009 06:15:50
Edited by: Badmin on 07/09/2009 06:15:35
Marauders feature double range on tractor beams as well as double speed.

This and the feature of being able to tank more than the tengu while throwing out more dps makes the choice easy for me.

In addition, tengu's cost more depending on how the golem is fit and do not have the large cargo bay used for missioning.

LINKY for potential T3 fits:

http://www.massively.com/gallery/eve-strategic-cruisers/2261766/


PS: oh yea, and if u accidently blow the tengu up, you lose SP's... another downside.

Overall, get a golem.

Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2009.09.07 07:34:00 - [5]
 

Golem.

Xilian Yula
Posted - 2009.09.07 10:11:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Badmin
Edited by: Badmin on 07/09/2009 06:15:50
Edited by: Badmin on 07/09/2009 06:15:35
Marauders feature double range on tractor beams as well as double speed.

This and the feature of being able to tank more than the tengu while throwing out more dps makes the choice easy for me.

In addition, tengu's cost more depending on how the golem is fit and do not have the large cargo bay used for missioning.

LINKY for potential T3 fits:

http://www.massively.com/gallery/eve-strategic-cruisers/2261766/


PS: oh yea, and if u accidently blow the tengu up, you lose SP's... another downside.

Overall, get a golem.


The Tengu can tank for the same if not more than the Golem while having better capacitor utility.
True that Tengu can't deliver as good DPS as Golem, and the Golem is better for doing missioing overall indeed.

Fenix12
Doom Guard
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2009.09.07 10:31:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Fenix12 on 07/09/2009 10:32:21
not flown a golem before but my tengu does 650 dps and can tank 2200 dps against guristas, also it has an ab fitted so that halfs the damage you take.

i use it for 0.0 plexing and most plexes are generally harder than level 4's

Durzel
The Xenodus Initiative.
Posted - 2009.09.07 10:49:00 - [8]
 

Tank is only relevant up to a point, when I built an active-tanked Legion I was getting carried away with how much hitpoints it had before I realised that I was perma-running the repper anyway and never dropping below 100% armour.

Tank doesn't finish missions, gank does and very few ships do it better than the Golem does.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.09.07 11:03:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Badmin
Marauders feature double range on tractor beams as well as double speed.
Just want to point out that T3 ships can do this as well…

That said, the main (only?) advantage of the Marauders is killing speed, but that's a pretty darn important advantage.

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2009.09.08 03:09:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Badmin
Marauders feature double range on tractor beams as well as double speed.
Just want to point out that T3 ships can do this as well…

That said, the main (only?) advantage of the Marauders is killing speed, but that's a pretty darn important advantage.


A Marauder can tractor and salvage while killing, which is much faster than warping back, swapping out subsystems, and then flying back to salvage. Plus even with cargo expanders, a Tengu's cargo capacity is pretty small.




Manu Hermanus
FaDoyToy
Posted - 2009.09.08 03:19:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Badmin
Marauders feature double range on tractor beams as well as double speed.
Just want to point out that T3 ships can do this as well…

That said, the main (only?) advantage of the Marauders is killing speed, but that's a pretty darn important advantage.


but what does it give up in order to have long range tractors?

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.09.08 03:54:00 - [12]
 

If you're after blitzing missions (for standings/LP/whatever) -> Tengu
If you want full completion of any missions, with loot and salvage included -> Golem

fmercury
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.09.08 04:00:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Manu Hermanus
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Badmin
Marauders feature double range on tractor beams as well as double speed.
Just want to point out that T3 ships can do this as well…

That said, the main (only?) advantage of the Marauders is killing speed, but that's a pretty darn important advantage.


but what does it give up in order to have long range tractors?


Nothing.

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2009.09.08 04:45:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: fmercury
Originally by: Manu Hermanus
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Badmin
Marauders feature double range on tractor beams as well as double speed.
Just want to point out that T3 ships can do this as well…

That said, the main (only?) advantage of the Marauders is killing speed, but that's a pretty darn important advantage.


but what does it give up in order to have long range tractors?


Nothing.


Eh? Correct answer is firepower if you tractor/salvage on the fly, or travel time to leave, refit with tractors/salvagers, travel back, and salvage.


Bloody Rabbit
Posted - 2009.09.08 05:13:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Fenix12
Edited by: Fenix12 on 07/09/2009 10:32:21
not flown a golem before but my tengu does 650 dps and can tank 2200 dps against guristas, also it has an ab fitted so that halfs the damage you take.

i use it for 0.0 plexing and most plexes are generally harder than level 4's


I have to agree that I would not fly a slow golem in 0.0 doing plex so the Tengu would be better but for high sec carebearing the Golem wins hands down.

Hellinthose
Posted - 2009.09.08 07:43:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Hellinthose on 08/09/2009 07:47:08
Originally by: Xilian Yula
Originally by: Badmin
Edited by: Badmin on 07/09/2009 06:15:50
Edited by: Badmin on 07/09/2009 06:15:35
Marauders feature double range on tractor beams as well as double speed.

This and the feature of being able to tank more than the tengu while throwing out more dps makes the choice easy for me.

In addition, tengu's cost more depending on how the golem is fit and do not have the large cargo bay used for missioning.

LINKY for potential T3 fits:

http://www.massively.com/gallery/eve-strategic-cruisers/2261766/


PS: oh yea, and if u accidently blow the tengu up, you lose SP's... another downside.

Overall, get a golem.


The Tengu can tank for the same if not more than the Golem while having better capacitor utility.
True that Tengu can't deliver as good DPS as Golem, and the Golem is better for doing missioing overall indeed.


True the tengu can tank about 500-1000 dps actively, but it has about 20-35K eff hit points. The golem has about 80K while being able to rep 700-1200 DPS actively, so if your tank starts to fail you still got time before you go boom. The Tengu by contrast will blow up far before the golem because it simply cannot absorb enough damage to let the active tank work properly. Overall, the Golem has a much better tank.

The Tengu relies a lot on small signature radius and speed to deter a lot of damage quickly. If engaging fleets, you better stay out of recon web and scram range otherwise ur an insta-kill. In PVE you better stay away from angels because they can Target Paint you without consequences for stacking penaltise making your cruiser look like a Station.

Kill bodies.

Ghostfire
Posted - 2009.09.08 14:32:00 - [17]
 

Tengu if you have an alt salvager.
Golem if you wish to salvage while you kill.

I've read the numbers above however if you can't tank everything in every level 4 in a tengu you have the wrong setup.

I agree with the comments about sig radius. I pop frigs before I get webbed as an insurance policy. Once they're dead you can tank most of the DPS with low sig and movement.

Katarlia Simov
Minmatar
Cowboys From Hell
Posted - 2009.09.08 15:24:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Hellinthose
Edited by: Hellinthose on 08/09/2009 07:47:08
Originally by: Xilian Yula
Originally by: Badmin
Edited by: Badmin on 07/09/2009 06:15:50
Edited by: Badmin on 07/09/2009 06:15:35
Marauders feature double range on tractor beams as well as double speed.

This and the feature of being able to tank more than the tengu while throwing out more dps makes the choice easy for me.

In addition, tengu's cost more depending on how the golem is fit and do not have the large cargo bay used for missioning.

LINKY for potential T3 fits:

http://www.massively.com/gallery/eve-strategic-cruisers/2261766/


PS: oh yea, and if u accidently blow the tengu up, you lose SP's... another downside.

Overall, get a golem.


The Tengu can tank for the same if not more than the Golem while having better capacitor utility.
True that Tengu can't deliver as good DPS as Golem, and the Golem is better for doing missioing overall indeed.


True the tengu can tank about 500-1000 dps actively, but it has about 20-35K eff hit points. The golem has about 80K while being able to rep 700-1200 DPS actively, so if your tank starts to fail you still got time before you go boom. The Tengu by contrast will blow up far before the golem because it simply cannot absorb enough damage to let the active tank work properly. Overall, the Golem has a much better tank.

The Tengu relies a lot on small signature radius and speed to deter a lot of damage quickly. If engaging fleets, you better stay out of recon web and scram range otherwise ur an insta-kill. In PVE you better stay away from angels because they can Target Paint you without consequences for stacking penaltise making your cruiser look like a Station.

Kill bodies.


You, sir, are full of ****.

People have been happily running missions in HACs since hacs came out. Ishtars mainly, but also the odd zealot, eagle and sac. No mission will ever have the damage output to 'make an active tank not run properly'. No matter what mission you're in, you're tank can't simply 'fail' if its big enough. The EHP difference make no odds in PvE.

Nothing you can do to a tengu makes it instapopable by rats, aside from putting the wrong hardners on or some ****. Even with my sig radius the size of a barn, webbed to 0m/s and with 43 points on my tengu, she permatanks 753 dps to her weakest damage group (sansha). Tengus do NOT rely on their sig radius for damage mitigation. They have HUGE tanks and happen to be able to kite AS WELL.

Also, as prices currently stand, golems cost more. I got my tengu for just over 700mil, cheapest golem is over a bil. Rigs are of course cheaper for a tengu too, and the only pimp stuff most people would need is some deadspace small boosters, a navy boost amp and navy BCUs. In fact a fully fit tengu probably costs not much more than the golem hull.

So the tengu is definitely a solid platform for mission running thats NOT at risk from dying at all, and is actually fun to fly.

Marko Riva
Posted - 2009.09.08 15:39:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Hellinthose
The Tengu relies a lot on small signature radius and speed to deter a lot of damage quickly. If engaging fleets, you better stay out of recon web and scram range otherwise ur an insta-kill. In PVE you better stay away from angels because they can Target Paint you without consequences for stacking penaltise making your cruiser look like a Station.

Kill bodies.


Tengu can fit an amazing tank (kin/therm), WELL over 1500-1900. Combine that with the small sig radius and speed and any Tengu that gets killed in a mission was either neuted while scrammed or didn't activate his tank before warping in and got DCed.

Manu Hermanus
FaDoyToy
Posted - 2009.09.08 16:18:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Manu Hermanus on 08/09/2009 16:18:58
Originally by: Katarlia Simov

Nothing you can do to a tengu makes it instapopable by rats, aside from putting the wrong hardners on or some ****. Even with my sig radius the size of a barn, webbed to 0m/s and with 43 points on my tengu, she permatanks 753 dps to her weakest damage group (sansha). Tengus do NOT rely on their sig radius for damage mitigation. They have HUGE tanks and happen to be able to kite AS WELL.


while the tengu doesn't rely on the sig radius for damage mitigation it certainly adds to the tank in a meaningful way that eft wont show. however this additional tank is rather unneeded in most level 4 contexts as they rarely do more then 400 dps, I guess it would be possible to run most level 4s in a tengu with a speed/sig tank + around 150 dps tanked. maybe a bit less maybe a bit more.

and

Originally by: Akita T
If you're after blitzing missions (for standings/LP/whatever) -> Tengu
If you want full completion of any missions, with loot and salvage included -> Golem


o rly? I mostly blitz missions in a golem, with some loot collection, having 10 lockable targets is oh so nice. Anyways I have a bit of trouble believing this as well most missions involve killing just about everything (golem is very good at that), now if there were more be agile, and complete this task and you are done then I would agree that the tengu is good for that.

*edit: wow the quoting doesn't like it when you put a space in

Katarlia Simov
Minmatar
Cowboys From Hell
Posted - 2009.09.09 09:51:00 - [21]
 

Oh i absolutely agree, having a dinky little sig radius is very sexy :) I was just trying to get across to Professor ****** up there that even if the tengu had dreadnought sig radius and couldn't move, she can still tank along with the best of them, the golem included.

Unless you lay out the billion or more for a pith medium booster or however much gistii x-l boosters go for these days, you won't be able to beat the permatank numbers that a tengu can put out.

Hell, my tengu doesn't even have resist rigs or a DCU, and she can shrug off a hellish amount of Em/therm, especially since overloading isn't such a crazy idea on t3...

Omu Negru
Caldari
Bang Bang You're Dead
Posted - 2009.09.09 11:43:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Omu Negru on 09/09/2009 11:43:54
My tengu worth 4bil isk.. cheaper then my golem, becose I have gist a-type x-large sb on it. (expensive s#it).

I deal 990dps on kin, 790dps on other damage types, 1100perma tank and 680 speed. It is faster, I kill cruisers and frigs faster, so better dps then golem. I lock faster then golem and I have 35 sensor strenght, so I'm not jammed by caldari npc so easy.

I dont have a big cargo and tractor beams on tengu and the range is 27km but the speed compensate this. (can be done with heavy missiles too and range go to 105km or so, and dps is aprox 540/740).

In the end I'll keep golem for low range jobs with torp. I think... Anyway is better for complex pve. But for lvl4 missions my tengu dose a very good job.

peace and out.

Zantris
Posted - 2009.09.09 12:35:00 - [23]
 

Anything weak vs Kinetic, a Tengu will be faster on. The Golem wins on other damage types.

Anything that requires you to move between gates that are far apart, a Tengu will destroy a Golem on.

Anything with lots of frigs/cruisers, a Tengu will destroy a Golem on. Heavy Battleships leans in favor of the Golem.

Some other things to keep in mind:
-a Tengu is (a lot) more fun to fly than a Golem
-a Tengu is cheaper than a Golem(and that price difference will continue to grow)
-a Tengu requires significantly less SP than a Golem
-a Tengu can be fit for multiple roles outside missions
-a Tengu eats through Heavy Assault missiles like a fat kid eats twinkies, it does affect your profit margin. And using Heavies in a Tengu is lame, thats what Nighthawks/Drakes are for.
-a Golem -will- make you more isk/hr. The tractor/salvage while you kill just can't be beat.

For me personally, I enjoy doing missions more in a Tengu. Which means I spend more time doing missions... which means I make more isk overall with a Tengu. If you're all about making the most isk/hr... go with a Golem.


Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2009.09.09 13:23:00 - [24]
 

While grand statements how Tengu pwns over Golem are there I do not see actual numbers (other than EFT stats) backing off those claims. Last time I saw real numbers for Tengu (Silence the informant) those numbers were good, but even lowly cruise Golem was still faster. Not a lot, but faster still. This was indeed for blitzing, as in my opinion looting/salvaging is whole another profession and best done in ship specifically fitted for that.

I'm sure it's faster in missions where you have to travel a lot, like The Score for example and some parts of Recon series, Unauthorized military precence (if you don't have pile of militants stocpiled) etc, on average however I do not believe those grand claims until I see consistent mission completion times I can't beat in my Golem. Ofc I'm also sure it depends how you use it. It will probably beat nublets in permatanked Golems without painters and only few damage mods. Golem with 2+ painters and 4 damage mods however - doubt it.

Ralavina
Vivicide
Posted - 2009.09.09 13:38:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Katarlia Simov
No matter what mission you're in, you're tank can't simply 'fail' if its big enough. The EHP difference make no odds in PvE.


I take it, then, that you've never attempted the 10/10 "The Maze" ? :)


Janae Velius
Posted - 2009.09.09 18:37:00 - [26]
 

I've never said that a tengu was faster, just that its tank is definitely on the same degree of magnitude as a golem, and can get to 'ridiculous' sizes a lot cheaper than a golem.

It's damage, while pretty frikkin good for a mission boat is not as good as a golem, even if sig radius helps it vs smaller ships.

I'm not trying to persuade anyone to drop their golem and buy a tengu, merely that a tengu is a damn fine ship to mission in, costs less, moves faster, has no chance of triggering aggro with its drones and is actually enjoyable to fly. Sure sure... mission grind is still mission grind, but when you're actually manoeuvring around at pretty high speed it makes the whole process more pleasant.

Oh, and if your active tank is ever failing, you didn't put on a big enough one. As I said. The maze is a 10/10 plex, not a level 4 mission. Difference ? Yes.

Katarlia Simov
Minmatar
Cowboys From Hell
Posted - 2009.09.09 18:38:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Janae Velius
I've never said that a tengu was faster, just that its tank is definitely on the same degree of magnitude as a golem, and can get to 'ridiculous' sizes a lot cheaper than a golem.

It's damage, while pretty frikkin good for a mission boat is not as good as a golem, even if sig radius helps it vs smaller ships.

I'm not trying to persuade anyone to drop their golem and buy a tengu, merely that a tengu is a damn fine ship to mission in, costs less, moves faster, has no chance of triggering aggro with its drones and is actually enjoyable to fly. Sure sure... mission grind is still mission grind, but when you're actually manoeuvring around at pretty high speed it makes the whole process more pleasant.

Oh, and if your active tank is ever failing, you didn't put on a big enough one. As I said. The maze is a 10/10 plex, not a level 4 mission. Difference ? Yes.


Alt post. Sorry :)

Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2009.09.09 19:09:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Janae Velius
I've never said that a tengu was faster, just that its tank is definitely on the same degree of magnitude as a golem, and can get to 'ridiculous' sizes a lot cheaper than a golem.


Ahh sorry. Was just jumping the gun then. To that statement I can fully agree.


 

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