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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2009.09.09 18:44:00 - [121]
 

Originally by: Iria Ahrens

stuff


Why is it that you so vehemently defend this? Don't give me the cause people are stupid crap, or cause it's a legitimate game function, or it's not an exploit fan fare. Why do you defend it? What benefit do you gain by the way it is?

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.09.09 19:03:00 - [122]
 

Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Why do you defend it? What benefit do you gain by the way it is?
It keeps the game open. It keeps the game interesting. It keeps the game from being a bland, unoriginal hand-holding morass of mediocrity. It keeps me on my toes.

It keeps the game EVE — the game I want to play.

Gekkoh
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.09.09 19:18:00 - [123]
 

As with most scams of this type, the root problem isn't that the scam can be done, its that the UI is lacking.

Why not display the docking rights status of a station when you look at its info window, including your individual status? Surely since we can send evemails and private comms across many light years instantly, we can query simple information about things like docking rights, no?

Eve would be so much more enjoyable all around if the UI simply gave us more information, and ways to tailor it to our needs. This is yet another example of that.

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2009.09.09 19:22:00 - [124]
 

Originally by: Tippia

It keeps the game open. It keeps the game interesting. It keeps the game from being a bland, unoriginal hand-holding morass of mediocrity. It keeps me on my toes.

It keeps the game EVE — the game I want to play.


Uh huh. So someone being able to scam someone else with a method that you're aware of, and thus won't fall victim to, keeps you paying your sub huh? BS

Try again.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.09.09 19:35:00 - [125]
 

Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Uh huh. So someone being able to scam someone else with a method that you're aware of, and thus won't fall victim to, keeps you paying your sub huh? BS

Try again.
Ok. How about this:

It keeps the game open. It keeps the game interesting. It keeps the game from being a bland, unoriginal hand-holding morass of mediocrity. It keeps me on my toes.

It keeps the game EVE — the game I want to play.

Just because you don't like or understand the answer doesn't mean it's not the answer you're looking for.

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2009.09.09 19:40:00 - [126]
 

Originally by: Tippia

Just because you don't like or understand the answer doesn't mean it's not the answer you're looking for.


Doesn't mean you're not full of it either.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.09.09 19:43:00 - [127]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 09/09/2009 19:44:29
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Doesn't mean you're not full of it either.
What part of it don't you understand?

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2009.09.09 19:45:00 - [128]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 09/09/2009 19:44:02
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Doesn't mean you're not full of it either.
What part of it don't you understand?


Yawn

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.09.09 19:48:00 - [129]
 

Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Yawn
No. What part of it don't you understand?

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2009.09.09 19:54:00 - [130]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Yawn
No. What part of it don't you understand?


You have got to be kidding.

Liz Laser
The New Era
C0NVICTED
Posted - 2009.09.09 20:05:00 - [131]
 

I didn't read all the replies, so excuse me if this has already been posted, but when I post a courier contract for 7 days, how on earth am I to know who's going to control the station 6 days from now?

For that matter, how am I going to know who will have docking rights even 5 minutes from now?

I post Public contracts to nullsec, and they are legitimate contracts, pay very well and if someone's having trouble getting in they can always seige the station, I guess.

I just don't imagine this to be a serious issue. Pilots know where they are welcome.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.09.09 20:17:00 - [132]
 

Originally by: Adunh Slavy
You have got to be kidding.
No. What part of it don't you understand?

Santiago Fahahrri
Gallente
Galactic Geographic
Posted - 2009.09.09 20:30:00 - [133]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Uh huh. So someone being able to scam someone else with a method that you're aware of, and thus won't fall victim to, keeps you paying your sub huh? BS

Try again.
Ok. How about this:

It keeps the game open. It keeps the game interesting. It keeps the game from being a bland, unoriginal hand-holding morass of mediocrity. It keeps me on my toes.

It keeps the game EVE — the game I want to play.

Just because you don't like or understand the answer doesn't mean it's not the answer you're looking for.


I agree with Tippia. I enjoy the fact that in Eve my lack of planning or foresight can result in real consequences. I enjoy that the decision to study or not study the map before making a trip can get me into very dangerous situations.

Hell, I've bounced off stations in deep 0.0 testing docking rights because I wasn't sure about the politics of the locals before. I understand the situation.

I also had a lot of fun making my safe spot just out of visual range of the station, scanning the station area for potentialy hostile ships, and hitting it in between threats...

Thinking kept me safe.

Liz Laser
The New Era
C0NVICTED
Posted - 2009.09.09 20:49:00 - [134]
 

hehe, I took an uncloaked Mammoth to the 4-EJLU outpost in Wicked Creek this weekend and bounced off. Not for a courier mission, though.

The locals just watched me. I was gone before they got over their shock and could mount a pursuit.


Zartanic
Posted - 2009.09.09 21:25:00 - [135]
 

This post still going? Someone wants their hand held and thinks its a broken game mechanic if its not. That goes against everything EVE stands for and its why other games are mediocre at best. If they cant grasp that its their problem.

That's all there is to it.

Michwich
Posted - 2009.09.09 21:47:00 - [136]
 

Originally by: Zartanic
This post still going? Someone wants their hand held and thinks its a broken game mechanic if its not. That goes against everything EVE stands for and its why other games are mediocre at best. If they cant grasp that its their problem.

That's all there is to it.


Your the one getting the hand holding here, ffs you dont even have to show up and do anything. Get your lazy ass to the station and wait for them to come. This aint rocket science you ******s.

Khemul Zula
Amarr
Keisen Trade League
Posted - 2009.09.09 22:06:00 - [137]
 

Edited by: Khemul Zula on 09/09/2009 22:07:16
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
You have got to be kidding.
No. What part of it don't you understand?
It's the part about the logic and the facts. Laughing

He has made up his mind on this issue. No amount of facts, logic, or explanations is going to convince him. Same goes for most the people complaining about courier contracts in this thread. This thread is a joke now. You've got one side explaining why there is no problem and that everything works rather well and another side simply replying "You just don't get it!" and "Everything is broken!" rather then actually reading or defending their point. Rolling Eyes
Basically this has turned into EVE's version of a religious debate. Laughing

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2009.09.09 22:09:00 - [138]
 


I more than understand the canned "eve is a cold harsh place" answer, it's so cliché that it has no value. I suppose "trash it" should fit a module and "fit on ship" should trash it. Then it would be a really cold hard place, huh? Don't want that though I suppose, do ya?

Eve is a cold harsh place, and it should be a harsh place. Your short sighted canned response fails to further PVP, to get more people doing more things in more dangerous space, experiencing it with guns. If the marginal returns were increased, because risk was decreased, there'd be more targets to shoot in dangerous space. But no, instead the canned short sighted answer of marketing and this simpleton focus on a stupid scam.

Frankly I don't give a crap about the scam and never have, it's just a symptom of the under laying problem of courier contracts. If you want Eve to be a cold harsh place, then you should want to see better utilization of those things that will encourage people to go into space and experience a cold harsh place.

But you don't, instead you focus on this one silly thing, why?

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2009.09.09 22:15:00 - [139]
 

Originally by: Khemul Zula

It's the part about the logic and the facts. Laughing

He has made up his mind on this issue. No amount of facts, logic, or explanations is going to convince him.


What I'm speaking of goes beyond the dumb little scam you so despertly want to protect. Get your head out of your ass.

Khemul Zula
Amarr
Keisen Trade League
Posted - 2009.09.09 22:31:00 - [140]
 

Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: Khemul Zula

It's the part about the logic and the facts. Laughing

He has made up his mind on this issue. No amount of facts, logic, or explanations is going to convince him.


What I'm speaking of goes beyond the dumb little scam you so despertly want to protect. Get your head out of your ass.
This looks nothing like I just described. Cool

Zartanic
Posted - 2009.09.09 22:38:00 - [141]
 

Edited by: Zartanic on 09/09/2009 22:42:32

Originally by: Michwich
Originally by: Zartanic
This post still going? Someone wants their hand held and thinks its a broken game mechanic if its not. That goes against everything EVE stands for and its why other games are mediocre at best. If they cant grasp that its their problem.

That's all there is to it.


Your the one getting the hand holding here, ffs you dont even have to show up and do anything. Get your lazy ass to the station and wait for them to come. This aint rocket science you ******s.


Stop making assumptions, I've never set a contract in my life and have no intention of doing so.

Also grow up. 'ffs' and '******s' is used by kids and WOW players.

I'll let you in on a little secret. Arguing does not involve trying to insult and hope that impresses the reader. Amazingly, that does not work. Discussion involves putting across a reasonably well thought out argument to discuss. So far the Op and his friends have failed on that.

If any of you posters fell for this simple, easily avoided and well documented scam then your the one who made the mistake, not the game. If you don't like it, post in the suggestions forums where it belongs. Otherwise you will just look like gullible fools.


Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2009.09.09 22:54:00 - [142]
 

Originally by: Khemul Zula
This looks nothing like I just described. Cool


Obtuse hypocrisy doesn't do you any favors.

Drichter
Posted - 2009.09.09 23:00:00 - [143]
 

Lok'Tar my friends ...
I just came from the land of funny cutie-bears and wanted to send my elven half-brother a present to his birthday in eve. Where can i find the mailbox please?


-> Courier-contract-system is fine, use ur brain!
-> .99-Isk-contracts: U still can ask for .99 isk ... they're still here. They've been changed because local-chat was flooded with them. I don't see courier-contracts flooding in local.
-> It's your job tho check if u can dock on the delivery-station or not. Closest RL-analogy: I bought a flight to china, already prepaid a hotel and so on. Well .. it'll get a short trip and you can only walk around on the airport in beijing because u didn't got your visa (u know, that allowance to visit china). And NOONE will repay ur money u spend.

Gekkoh
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.09.09 23:06:00 - [144]
 

Edited by: Gekkoh on 09/09/2009 23:14:34
Originally by: Zartanic

If any of you posters fell for this simple, easily avoided and well documented scam then your the one who made the mistake, not the game. If you don't like it, post in the suggestions forums where it belongs. Otherwise you will just look like gullible fools.



I never fell for this, but I also had never heard of or thought about this either. Assuming that something is 'well known' so therefore everyone should know about, and those who don't are stupid/fools/gullible is a fallacy. No one knows everything about Eve. Not you, not me, nor anyone else reading this.

The point that I bring up whenever scams of this nature are discussed is that scamming shouldn't rely on flawed UI design. Scamming someone by advertising one thing when clearly (keyword: clearly) it says another in the contract is not something I'd ever do, but it is part of Eve, and is one of those small things that make it that cold, harsh mistress. Scamming someone by getting them to give you something, and then not holding up your end of the deal is the same.

Scamming someone because the UI doesn't give you simple information that it should, is another story. I can look up agents and tell whether or not I can use them. I can look at a ship in a contract, and discover if I can pilot it or not. If I try to accept a courier mission that wants me to transport 1000 m3 of goods, and I'm in a frigate, it pops up a warning telling me so. If I trade a ship to another player, I get a warning about that.

So, why not give that same level of information to the player browsing contracts? Given that most of these are legit contracts, by players who actually want those goods moved somewhere, wouldn't it be beneficial to them as well, since now someone doesn't have to fly all the way out to that station and then all the way back to accept it, only to then fly all the way there again, and then to the destination? I know that I wouldn't bother doing that, especially since some of these stations are deep inside nullsec, dozens of jumps in.

Just like the people who didn't want contracts to clearly spell out their value with words, if the only reason to not do something is that it lets a few capitalize on silly mistakes caused by a slip of the mouse, or ignorance of simple game mechanics, then that really isn't a very good reason at all not to improve the UI, and thus the game.

Shall we eliminate the new player tutorials and welcome screens as well, and just drop newbies straight into the world out in alliance controlled nullsec? After all, they're ignorant and foolish and 'deserve' to get podded because of it, right? Let's send them straight to the clone bay with no ISK, so they have to mine trit with that civilian mining laser. Then we'll remove concord, and sit around and pop their tier 1 frigate the moment they undock from the station. How foolish, they should've known better! i did it 4 lolz! cry moar u noob, pubbie carebear!

That's what you guys sound like, and it makes absolutely no sense.

I'm glad that you and your ilk don't work for CCP, as you'd have designed this game into the ground long ago through your own ignorance and foolishness, as you'd have the game you'd deserve to play because of it. You just wouldn't have very many people playing with you.

Keep that in mind next time you want to keep a UI element in a substandard state just to facilitate capitalization on simple mistakes.

Khemul Zula
Amarr
Keisen Trade League
Posted - 2009.09.09 23:26:00 - [145]
 

Edited by: Khemul Zula on 09/09/2009 23:30:20
Originally by: Gekkoh
I never fell for this, but I also had never heard of or thought about this either. Assuming that something is 'well known' so therefore everyone should know about, and those who don't are stupid/fools/gullible is a fallacy. No one knows everything about Eve. Not you, not me, nor anyone else reading this.

The point that I bring up whenever scams of this nature are discussed is that scamming shouldn't rely on flawed UI design. Scamming someone by advertising one thing when clearly (keyword: clearly) it says another in the contract is not something I'd ever do, but it is part of Eve, and is one of those small things that make it that cold, harsh mistress. Scamming someone by getting them to give you something, and then not holding up your end of the deal is the same.

Scamming someone because the UI doesn't give you simple information that it should, is another story. I can look up agents and tell whether or not I can use them. I can look at a ship in a contract, and discover if I can pilot it or not. If I try to accept a courier mission that wants me to transport 1000 m3 of goods, and I'm in a frigate, it pops up a warning telling me so. If I trade a ship to another player, I get a warning about that.

So, why not give that same level of information to the player browsing contracts? Given that most of these are legit contracts, by players who actually want those goods moved somewhere, wouldn't it be beneficial to them as well, since now someone doesn't have to fly all the way out to that station and then all the way back to accept it, only to then fly all the way there again, and then to the destination? I know that I wouldn't bother doing that, especially since some of these stations are deep inside nullsec, dozens of jumps in.

Just like the people who didn't want contracts to clearly spell out their value with words, if the only reason to not do something is that it lets a few capitalize on silly mistakes caused by a slip of the mouse, or ignorance of simple game mechanics, then that really isn't a very good reason at all not to improve the UI, and thus the game.

Shall we eliminate the new player tutorials and welcome screens as well, and just drop newbies straight into the world out in alliance controlled nullsec? After all, they're ignorant and foolish and 'deserve' to pay because of it, right?

I'm glad that you and your ilk don't work for CCP, as you'd have designed this game into the ground long ago through your own ignorance and foolishness, as you'd have the game you'd deserve to play because of it. You just wouldn't have very many people playing with you.

Keep that in mind next time you want to keep a UI element in a substandard state just to facilitate capitalization on simple mistakes.
I don't think anyone is saying that would be a bad idea. Actually quite a few in the "Things are fine how they are" crowd have already agreed this would be a good idea. The arguement has been on whether this is a major flaw that makes the whole system useless as a result.

Personally, I'm not entirely convinced that solution would fix the problem, but I'm not against it. It underestimates the ability of the individual to overlook blatant warning signs (take the recent hacker issue as an example). I would also wonder how much server load it'd cause if the server had to check your docking rights everywhere in EVE everytime you looked at a contract (assuming they don't include the check when you load available contracts...*shudders*).

The point still stands though that as far as scams go, this one is A.) very easy to see B.) very easy to avoid (0.0 systems tend to have rather obvious names) and C.) very well known and documented. Could the system use some improvements? Yes. Does the system need improvements? Possibly, but there are many much more important things to be fixed first before programming in such a change. Overhauling the sytem for such a minor thing would be a bit of a waste.

Zartanic
Posted - 2009.09.10 00:27:00 - [146]
 

Edited by: Zartanic on 10/09/2009 00:30:23

There is a big difference between a game mechanic that fools players into making a mistake (freeform contracts) and a mechanic that catches the lazy, tired, foolish or anyone who isn't alert.

That's why Freeform contracts were recently removed as they misled. They would have reviewed other potential contract changes too but they left the public courier ones as they so clearly describe what they are. You can right click and look at the station, who owns it and look at the corp. You can even look at the route. Its so obvious you don't stroll up to an unknown player station and expect a cup of tea with biscuits when most kill on sight. So either you check the station or do another contract. How hard is that? No one is telling you you MUST take the contract.

When I saw them for the first time it was obvious they could be used by scammers as well as genuine players. I did not need any guide to tell me that. Now if after knowing the basics of what EVE is like someone falls for a scam then they should put it down to a lesson learnt and not try and blame others.

Its this trying to blame others that is the cause of many game being dumbed down to the point of being unplayable (WOW is now for me after 4 years playing it). Because where do you stop? One persons 'this is fine and its fun spotting the traps' is another's 'this is broken and I hate it'

CCP are very careful when they adjust mechanics as they know a bit here and a bit there adds up to a game with no risk. This game is about managing risk and they do not want to kill it without a lot of thought and very good reason.

EDIT: As the above poster said its not for me about whether it's a good idea, maybe it is, I don't care as I don't do contracts at all. Its the concept that 'its clearly a major issue' that is wrong..its not. And its been brought up for years, nothing new, CCP are well aware of it so there is a reason they have not changed it yet.


Jimer Lins
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.09.10 02:39:00 - [147]
 

Originally by: Iria Ahrens

Quit crying scam. Quit blaming the interface. Quit blaming others for your own shortcommings.



Blow it out your sphincter; I don't care who or what you scam. Go for it, I love scammers. Just get off the "I want to scam on easy mode by exploiting stupid UI design" kick.

Me, I've never scammed, taken a courier contract, made a courier contract, or been scammed. But I'm not so dense I can't see that the system is stupid.

Quote:
My justifications have nothing to do with easy or hard. It's about possible or not possible. If I put up a contract to retrieve something under one mile of water in the middle of the ocean, don't accept the contract if you can't deliver. How hard is that to understand?



Why is it hard to understand that people should be able to filter contracts by whether or not they can dock in the target system? This isn't rocket science; the data's all there and I could write a query that would get it now, let alone with whatever technology is available twenty-some thousand years in the future.


Santiago Fahahrri
Gallente
Galactic Geographic
Posted - 2009.09.10 03:20:00 - [148]
 

Originally by: Jimer Lins

Why is it hard to understand that people should be able to filter contracts by whether or not they can dock in the target system? This isn't rocket science; the data's all there and I could write a query that would get it now, let alone with whatever technology is available twenty-some thousand years in the future.


Why should the owners of independant stations in lawless space publish and provide a list of "who can dock here" to anyone, particularly the empires? I would find such an easy reference to be somewhat immersion breaking.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.09.10 03:41:00 - [149]
 

Originally by: Jimer Lins
Why is it hard to understand that people should be able to filter contracts by whether or not they can dock in the target system?

They CAN.

There's already a big red glowing in the dark pulsating eyes scary ultra super mega warning telling you (paraphrasing here):
"hey, moron, the destination is a player owned station, are you REALLY that stupid to take this contract if you have no idea if you can dock there or not ? oh, and don't ask ME if YOU have the rights to dock there, it's not my freaking problem, make your own calls and sort it out, dammit"...

...or, you know, something to that extent.
It might be just a couple of small reddish words displayed briefly at one point, but the general sentiment is there.

Zartanic
Posted - 2009.09.10 03:59:00 - [150]
 

You get the works, including a link to the owner. And as someone said earlier, displaying rights would be game breaking intel. A lot of this game relies on intel of that level. It would be abused mercilessly. Also, how do you stop someone changing those rights? Another change? Maybe stop Corps changing rights for 24 hours? Lets delete Corp ownership shall we and make all stations accessible? Remove contracts then? Well, so how do players get stuff moved if they are pirates? I know, lets dump security status on players so they can take the stuff themselves.

Where to stop? At SOME point there will be a game element that balances the whole thing without affecting too much. And for contracts, not showing rights is that element.

As I said earlier, before a 'simple change' is implemented it has to be thought through. CCP have clearly done that but some posters here refuse to see past the end of their nose..


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