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Atticus Fynch
Posted - 2009.09.06 21:17:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Atticus Fynch on 06/09/2009 22:50:20
I'm a courier jockey, so I couldn't resist this one contract offering 30 million in reward for just 10 million in collateral.

Thing is, it was about 5 to 10 jumps through 0.0.

Well, I tried this experiment: I got into a shuttle and took the trip.

Warping to zero all the way through, I met no resistance at all. In fact, there was NO-ONE around...the route was deserted.

I finally reached my destination only to find I couldn't dock...JUST AS I THOUGHT.

I backed tracked to hi-sec safely...and wiser.

I'm glad I did this before accepting the contract. So my question to CCP is this...

I consider courier contracts the same as buying material on the market. If I buy a ship, I get a ship...not a piece of ore.

So why are courier contracts such a risk for those in the transport business? Yes, I know about the risk elements in EVE...and I took my risk by flying through 0.0 space. But this is a fraudulent business practice and it really doesn't stink of risk, but rather an exploit.

So my bottom line now...I will NEVER pick up or deliver to 0.0. The trip is hazardous enough...and it may be a waste of time afterall.

Cat o'Ninetails
Caldari
Rancer Defence League
Posted - 2009.09.07 00:47:00 - [2]
 

gj you dodged a scam

grats lol

x

Lord Windu
Posted - 2009.09.07 00:52:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Atticus Fynch
exploit.



You cannot call something like this an exploit in a game where scamming is allowed. It's a valid scam and has been around as long as I can remember, the only people who fall for it are those that have no experience in the game or they are just thick and don't check the risks. If they are the ones without experience then this is something that will quickly teach them how Eve is a harsh game.

Zartanic
Posted - 2009.09.07 01:10:00 - [4]
 

The easy way to check for a scam.... If the offer looks too good to be true then its not true.

Nekmet Awai
Posted - 2009.09.07 01:18:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Lord Windu
Originally by: Atticus Fynch
exploit.



You cannot call something like this an exploit in a game where scamming is allowed. It's a valid scam and has been around as long as I can remember, the only people who fall for it are those that have no experience in the game or they are just thick and don't check the risks. If they are the ones without experience then this is something that will quickly teach them how Eve is a harsh game.

it is a exploit.
a curiour is the meaning that you should take something from a to b, but if it is 100% impossible to do this there is a buggy mechanic or a exploit used.
therefore it's a exploit.
problem in eve is that when everything is okey to do exploiting is a very profitable ting to do for some people.

Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
Posted - 2009.09.07 01:20:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Nekmet Awai
Originally by: Lord Windu
Originally by: Atticus Fynch
exploit.



You cannot call something like this an exploit in a game where scamming is allowed. It's a valid scam and has been around as long as I can remember, the only people who fall for it are those that have no experience in the game or they are just thick and don't check the risks. If they are the ones without experience then this is something that will quickly teach them how Eve is a harsh game.

it is a exploit.
a curiour is the meaning that you should take something from a to b, but if it is 100% impossible to do this there is a buggy mechanic or a exploit used.
therefore it's a exploit.
problem in eve is that when everything is okey to do exploiting is a very profitable ting to do for some people.
An exploit would be the courier taker not being able to determine if he can or cannot dock at the final destination. Op proved that you can indeed figure it out and so avoid taking that particular contract leaving it for someone who does have docking rights. Working as intended.ugh

Lord Windu
Posted - 2009.09.07 01:32:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Lord Windu on 07/09/2009 01:32:36

Originally by: Nekmet Awai
Originally by: Lord Windu
Originally by: Atticus Fynch
exploit.



You cannot call something like this an exploit in a game where scamming is allowed. It's a valid scam and has been around as long as I can remember, the only people who fall for it are those that have no experience in the game or they are just thick and don't check the risks. If they are the ones without experience then this is something that will quickly teach them how Eve is a harsh game.

it is a exploit.
a curiour is the meaning that you should take something from a to b, but if it is 100% impossible to do this there is a buggy mechanic or a exploit used.
therefore it's a exploit.
problem in eve is that when everything is okey to do exploiting is a very profitable ting to do for some people.


Originally by: wikipedia

In the realm of online games, an exploit is usually a software bug, design flaw, hack or bot that contributes to the user's prosperity in a manner not intended by the developers.


Nowhere does it say that scamming through known "working as intended" game mechanics is an exploit.

Atticus Fynch
Posted - 2009.09.07 01:33:00 - [8]
 

Given that this contract was not made out to a particular corporation (with docking rights)but rather to the public does make it a scam (and a good one I'll admit).

The problem is that you can never determine if a 0.0 space courier contract is ever legitimate without having to go and check things out first.

I got lucky in that the route was empty when I tried this...otherwise, I would not have even made it very far. So I took a shuttle instead of risking my transport ship.

It does make the legitimate courier contracts to 0.0 more difficult to get though because you will always be in doubt.

Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
Posted - 2009.09.07 01:39:00 - [9]
 

An Exploit is using a game mechanic for something it's not intended to be used for. Since courier missions are supposed to have a drop off point, removing the drop off point so you can screw over people is, wait for it... an exploit.

I don't expect people who do it to care, though. Continue coming up with ridiculous ways to justify it.

Khemul Zula
Amarr
Keisen Trade League
Posted - 2009.09.07 01:41:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Khemul Zula on 07/09/2009 01:51:55
Originally by: Atticus Fynch
Given that this contract was not made out to a particular corporation (with docking rights)but rather to the public does make it a scam (and a good one I'll admit).

The problem is that you can never determine if a 0.0 space courier contract is ever legitimate without having to go and check things out first.

I got lucky in that the route was empty when I tried this...otherwise, I would not have even made it very far. So I took a shuttle instead of risking my transport ship.

It does make the legitimate courier contracts to 0.0 more difficult to get though because you will always be in doubt.
It could be argued that since allies, friends, or some cases even simply neutrals can dock at outposts, that it is an entirely legitimate contract. It is not anyone else's fault that you are not on the friends list. Cool

That is also why this can't be considered an exploit. You have to make assumptions on the motives of a person, without any evidence, in order to police it. There are plenty of legitimate reasons for an open courier contract to a 0.0 station.


Now that that is out of the way. Most of them are scams. Laughing Rather simple to spot though, just show info and check the owner of the station. Nearly all player-owned stations are friendly-only or ally-only. Player-owned stations tend to have extremely obviously names, so checking the corp isn't even usually necessary.

Zartanic
Posted - 2009.09.07 01:41:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Zartanic on 07/09/2009 01:42:09
Originally by: Atticus Fynch
Given that this contract was not made out to a particular corporation (with docking rights)but rather to the public does make it a scam (and a good one I'll admit).

The problem is that you can never determine if a 0.0 space courier contract is ever legitimate without having to go and check things out first.

I got lucky in that the route was empty when I tried this...otherwise, I would not have even made it very far. So I took a shuttle instead of risking my transport ship.

It does make the legitimate courier contracts to 0.0 more difficult to get though because you will always be in doubt.


Well its a well known scam. Easy to spot too. It's not an exploit as it's not an unintended use of a game mechanic to obtain an advantage. Also maybe use a covert ops ship rather than a shuttle, it would help although still not fully safe.

All aspects of this game have scams. As long as there are ways to avoid them I see no problem with it, its part of the game.

Santiago Fahahrri
Gallente
Galactic Geographic
Posted - 2009.09.07 01:46:00 - [12]
 

It's pretty easy to check the station in question - if it's an NPC station you can dock. If it's an alliance run station you probably can't (unless it's Providence).

Valid scam because it's easy to avoid.

Atticus Fynch
Posted - 2009.09.07 01:50:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri
It's pretty easy to check the station in question - if it's an NPC station you can dock. If it's an alliance run station you probably can't (unless it's Providence).

Valid scam because it's easy to avoid.


good point

Sader Rykane
Amarr
The Dark Space Initiative
Revival Of The Talocan Empire
Posted - 2009.09.07 01:56:00 - [14]
 

Courier contract.

Transport Object from Point A to Point B.

A player knowingly removing Point B to make a contract impossible to complete is an exploit, it is not a intended game mechanic. How could it be, that would make no sense.

Now just because CCP hasn't gotten around to fixing it doesn't make it any less of an exploit.

I'm not saying don't do it, or don't take advantage of it, go ahead as long as you're able.

But you can not honestly believe this was intended and if you do, you're a jackass.

Khemul Zula
Amarr
Keisen Trade League
Posted - 2009.09.07 02:00:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Sader Rykane
A player knowingly removing Point B to make a contract impossible to complete is an exploit, it is not a intended game mechanic. How could it be, that would make no sense.
Pretty sure if someone figured out how to do that, it would be an exploit. Cool

Nol Agnot
Nightwatch Immortal
Posted - 2009.09.07 02:16:00 - [16]
 

Anyone should recognize the player owned outposts from NPC stations by the ******ed names alone.

Santiago Fahahrri
Gallente
Galactic Geographic
Posted - 2009.09.07 02:19:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Sader Rykane

A player knowingly removing Point B to make a contract impossible to complete is an exploit, it is not a intended game mechanic. How could it be, that would make no sense.



It's not impossible, it just requires good standings with the station owners. A pilot should know his standings with the group he is going to visit before going there.

Ukucia
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.09.07 02:33:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Sader Rykane
Courier contract.

Transport Object from Point A to Point B.

A player knowingly removing Point B to make a contract impossible to complete is an exploit, it is not a intended game mechanic. How could it be, that would make no sense.

Now just because CCP hasn't gotten around to fixing it doesn't make it any less of an exploit.

I'm not saying don't do it, or don't take advantage of it, go ahead as long as you're able.

But you can not honestly believe this was intended and if you do, you're a jackass.

Consider this situation:
You are a former resident of 0.0. Either through losing a war, or being an ass and getting kicked from your corp, you are no longer welcome there. But you've still got stuff in the station.

So you create an open contract to haul your stuff out, in the hopes that someone who can dock will haul your gear out.

You don't want to limit it to a corp or alliance. Your best bet to get the stuff out is for a neutral with docking rights to carry out the contract, and you don't know who the neutrals are.

Having said that, most of 'em are scams.

Nol Agnot
Nightwatch Immortal
Posted - 2009.09.07 02:42:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Ukucia
Originally by: Sader Rykane
Courier contract.

Transport Object from Point A to Point B.

A player knowingly removing Point B to make a contract impossible to complete is an exploit, it is not a intended game mechanic. How could it be, that would make no sense.

Now just because CCP hasn't gotten around to fixing it doesn't make it any less of an exploit.

I'm not saying don't do it, or don't take advantage of it, go ahead as long as you're able.

But you can not honestly believe this was intended and if you do, you're a jackass.

Consider this situation:
You are a former resident of 0.0. Either through losing a war, or being an ass and getting kicked from your corp, you are no longer welcome there. But you've still got stuff in the station.

So you create an open contract to haul your stuff out, in the hopes that someone who can dock will haul your gear out.

You don't want to limit it to a corp or alliance. Your best bet to get the stuff out is for a neutral with docking rights to carry out the contract, and you don't know who the neutrals are.

Having said that, most of 'em are scams.


If legit you mention it's restricted access in the contract.

Michwich
Posted - 2009.09.07 04:49:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Michwich on 07/09/2009 04:52:34
Edited by: Michwich on 07/09/2009 04:49:56
What? Didnt you ever order a pizza and then tell the pizza guy you didnt order one when he got there? lololol hilarious huh?

But seriously, the first time i ran into this I just couldn't make any sense of the fact that someone wanted something delivered so bad but wouldn't let the delivery man into the station. Until i rememeberd I gave him money first. Maybe these type of people shouldn't be able to order pizza? Imagine the pizza guy had to fork up collateral before he could deliver your pizza and then when he got there you said you didnt order one. LOL

Easy fix though, if you do make such a request the contract should be a contract where it does what it says and theres actually a dropp off location. The location would automatically give you docking rights when the mission is accepted. This would mean that only people with the proper authority can request items to their station. Imagine that.


Because why even call it a courier mission without a gaurantee of a dropoff location? Why not just ask people in chat to give you money so you can deliver this package to nowhere? Courier missions can only suffer because of this and would definalety be more interesting and relavent if this were fixed.

Lucas Tigh
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.09.07 05:33:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Atticus Fynch
JUST AS I THOUGHT.

!

Vanzatoarea
Posted - 2009.09.07 06:11:00 - [22]
 

so i`m exploiting now? fracks!

when i set couriers to 0.0 , i definately expect FRIENDS pr alliance folk to take them, yet i sometime make the public , because i`m not allways sure who`s altsalt alt will be doing the hauling ...and i`m lazy


Nooma K'Larr
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.09.07 06:45:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Vanzatoarea
so i`m exploiting now? fracks!

when i set couriers to 0.0 , i definately expect FRIENDS pr alliance folk to take them, yet i sometime make the public , because i`m not allways sure who`s altsalt alt will be doing the hauling ...and i`m lazy




nice tryRolling Eyes

you are aware that by making your contract public, you are offering it to EVERY FREAKIN PLAYER IN EVE...right?Mad

not just your "friends."

Rotnac
Caldari
GoonWaffe
SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO
Posted - 2009.09.07 06:58:00 - [24]
 

Eh, I've set up couriers to alliance-held stations. I assume that either a blue takes it or a non-blue does and is forced to fail it. And 0.0 -> high-sec ones are usually used by evacing alliances, and are set so the current owners can get stuff out. In either case, its assumed that blues take the contract, or the person is stupid.

So, long story short, don't be stupid.

Santiago Fahahrri
Gallente
Galactic Geographic
Posted - 2009.09.07 07:07:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Rotnac
Eh, I've set up couriers to alliance-held stations. I assume that either a blue takes it or a non-blue does and is forced to fail it. And 0.0 -> high-sec ones are usually used by evacing alliances, and are set so the current owners can get stuff out. In either case, its assumed that blues take the contract, or the person is stupid.

So, long story short, don't be stupid.


Exactly. The person who clicks the "Yes, I can do this job" button is the person responsible. If they don't know where they are going, or if they can do the job... they shouldn't click that button.

Cadde
Gallente
221st Century Warfare
Posted - 2009.09.07 07:08:00 - [26]
 

Thread TL:DR

Since (AFAIK) courier contracts can't be issued to an entire alliance and definitely not to those blue of said alliance. This cannot possibly be classed as an exploit. Even when you consider scam orders not being exploits in the first place which such an order could be... Maybe.

Most 0.0 outposts, as have been stated before, have a tiny allowance list to protect it from douchebags docking in it. Those kind of people that want to disrupt the alliances operations.

That doesn't mean the alliance friends have to be locked out though and if there is someone in the alliance or on that friends list who want to make a general courier contract. I.E a public contract, that very contract could be aimed to those on that friends list.
The contract is legit and "too good to be true" because after all, they are friends. And i know if i wanted one of my friends to deliver something to my outpost through 0.0 (with it's boundary low-sec) i would gladly pay 30 mil. Normally i deliver my own goods though as it's generally faster than asking someone else and saves me the isk in the first place.

So there, in a nutshell, is the intended behavior of such contracts. Now if scammers use it to their advantage that is just another intended behavior of the "Scams allowed" rule.
No difference from people posting in local about selling CNR's for 100 mil when inside the contract is a single "Caldari Navy Cataclysm missile" and nothing else.
The real problem is that, even if you are scam aware, you cannot trust the contracting system and there should be a way to filter courier contracts that YOU cannot possibly complete, I'll give you that much.
The same goes for the Jita local spam, some people are looking for legit sales in Jita but have to filter through it's 100+ per minute scam spam.

That is a problem and i hope CCP would give it atleast some attention. Like a spam filter that doesn't allow you to post the SAME THING more than three times in a row within 5 minutes.
Scam spammers in Jita tend to post the same thing 10 times every minute and so does ISK sellers, only difference is they do it 60 times a minute until banned!

Atticus Fynch
Posted - 2009.09.07 07:32:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Rotnac
Eh, I've set up couriers to alliance-held stations. I assume that either a blue takes it or a non-blue does and is forced to fail it. And 0.0 -> high-sec ones are usually used by evacing alliances, and are set so the current owners can get stuff out. In either case, its assumed that blues take the contract, or the person is stupid.

So, long story short, don't be stupid.


Well, since you feel that you own the EVE universe, I added this suggestion:

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1174526

I stand by my original comment...if a courier contract is public, then it's open to EVERYONE. Of course you lose nothing by it failing....in fact you gain by keeping the collateral.

Now, if you were fined because the pilot that accepted it couldn't dock at your station then you would be singing a different tune right? But since the present setup plays to your advantage, you have the luxury of calling everyone else stupid.

I know you'll have trouble with this concept, but there is more to EVE than Goonswarm and being blue.Rolling Eyes

Lorieen
AQ Militis Seprentia
Posted - 2009.09.07 08:06:00 - [28]
 

Did you even contact those in charge of the station to find out if you could get docking rights to pick up said courier package? If not it sounds like you didnt try all your options. They might even wait outside the station to give you an escort. Twisted Evil

Valeronx
Celestial Horizon Corp.
Fallen Angels Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.07 08:13:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Khemul Zula
Since allies, friends, or some cases even simply neutrals can dock at outposts, that it is an entirely legitimate contract. It is not anyone else's fault that you are not on the friends list. Cool



This



.

Tiny Tove
Posted - 2009.09.07 08:20:00 - [30]
 

OP is the exact opposite of a stupid troll.... do we have a word for that?


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