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Roiske Suu
Posted - 2009.09.06 12:00:00 - [1]
 

No whining!
Sometimes i ask for my self some questions, if eveler can't calculate there prices!?
I does some inventions and calculate the prices to earn some money, no chance in market.
BPO is perhaps a reason, but really?

I manufacture different items from bpo, researched, chance in market? No chance in market!

People selling manufactured items under manufacturing price, not only items you can get as missionrunner.

I can't stand it, every person who knows marketing doesn't sell things down manufacturing price.
Reasons for this?

Lana's Alt
Minmatar Republic Military Skool
Posted - 2009.09.06 12:03:00 - [2]
 

They mine the minerals, so its free! right?

Sadayiel
Caldari
Inner Conflict
Posted - 2009.09.06 12:21:00 - [3]
 

because on our society there is a company that pay his workers for mine, then sell the mineralss to cover the workers payment and get benefits. Later a manufacturing company buy the minerals, and produce let's say cars, so they sell the cars to pay for minerals his own owrkers and profit.


Here people get they own mineral and manufacture they own items, it's a larger inversion but gives them a more wide margen for profit since they not need to pay workers for either mine or manufacture (also add no need to repair/upgrade machines unless you do something wrong)



Jim McGregor
Posted - 2009.09.06 12:26:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Lana's Alt
They mine the minerals, so its free! right?


Slave labor has always been free for the ones owning the slaves. Smile

Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
Posted - 2009.09.06 12:30:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Lana's Alt
They mine the minerals, so its free! right?


Slave labor has always been free for the ones owning the slaves. Smile


It either takes hired help or your work to control the slaves and make them do what you want. And the work you do is free! Right?

shady trader
Posted - 2009.09.06 12:51:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Destination SkillQueue
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Lana's Alt
They mine the minerals, so its free! right?


Slave labor has always been free for the ones owning the slaves. Smile


It either takes hired help or your work to control the slaves and make them do what you want. And the work you do is free! Right?


You also need to feed and house slaves. If you don't look after them you will only end up having to replace them which costs money, either buying them or setting up recruitment teams to replenish your supplies.

Ninja Troll
Posted - 2009.09.06 13:10:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Destination SkillQueue
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Lana's Alt
They mine the minerals, so its free! right?


Slave labor has always been free for the ones owning the slaves. Smile


It either takes hired help or your work to control the slaves and make them do what you want. And the work you do is free! Right?



/me releases the Hounds on them l33t Slaves

Okane Kudasai
Posted - 2009.09.06 13:23:00 - [8]
 

There are a number of things that must be taken into consideration

1) Perception.
The amount of "gathering" time is usually not factored into the cost so the perception of cost is lower. This extends to things that have a high subjective element like LP. The perception of value is skewed usually down to the buyer which in turn is governed by the % that a mod can lengthen your fight time. All these factors reduce/increase the price, and if people would give a cost to their time - this game would be FAR different

2) ME/PE and cost of minerals. The manufacturer might have had the mins from the time they were cheaper so he calculates the cost base from that angle. High ME pushes down the cost of manufacture which reflects on the sale.

3) People. They cannot do maths, they make mistakes, they are greedy, ignorant and lazy. Most of them shouldn't HAVE money - virtual or otherwise.



Summary for the ADD affected: It's a game that has a parallel to the world

And it is a GAME

Kolatha
Posted - 2009.09.06 13:49:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Kolatha on 06/09/2009 13:49:58
Originally by: Roiske Suu
Reasons for this?


Some people are just happy with smaller profit margins.

Simple fact is, these people are making plenty of ISK because mining for your own minerals, while maybe expensive in time, is pretty close to a zero cost operation. It's also something you can do while reading a book, chatting to friends, doing homework, watching a video or plenty of other tasks.

The only real ISK cost of operation is crystals, insurance and a bit put aside for replacement. Compared to what you get from the ore these costs are negligible so pretty much every unit of ore these small high sec operators mine is pure profit whether they sell for 100% of market value or for 1% of market value. While it may not be free in the sense of time devoted to extracting the minerals it is free in the sense that, other than the initial investment of the mining barge, there are pretty much no ongoing isk costs for extracting the ore.

Washell Olivaw
Posted - 2009.09.06 14:21:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Washell Olivaw on 06/09/2009 14:52:53
Originally by: Kolatha
Edited by: Kolatha on 06/09/2009 13:49:58
Originally by: Roiske Suu
Reasons for this?


Some people are just happy with smaller profit margins.

Simple fact is, these people are making plenty of ISK because mining for your own minerals, while maybe expensive in time, is pretty close to a zero cost operation. It's also something you can do while reading a book, chatting to friends, doing homework, watching a video or plenty of other tasks.

The only real ISK cost of operation is crystals, insurance and a bit put aside for replacement. Compared to what you get from the ore these costs are negligible so pretty much every unit of ore these small high sec operators mine is pure profit whether they sell for 100% of market value or for 1% of market value. While it may not be free in the sense of time devoted to extracting the minerals it is free in the sense that, other than the initial investment of the mining barge, there are pretty much no ongoing isk costs for extracting the ore.


People like you are making other people extremely rich.

If you have a stack of minerals you can sell on the market for a 1,000k ISK, by all means, consider them free because you mined them yourself. But if you make a stack of items which will sell for 800k ISK, you haven't made 800k, you actually lost 200k + time and manufacturing fees. In addition, someone will pick it up and reprocess it for a easy 200k profit. Minerals always have their market value.

The second thing is oppertunity costs. If you can mine minerals at the rate of 20 million isk an hour in market value, but you're capable of running missions at 40 million ISK an hour then you would make more money by doing the missions and just buying the minerals. Mining yourself wouldn't be free, it would be costing you 20 million an hour. Now lets include the 20% loss of the previous example and assume a 10% profit on proper manufacturing and pricing. Your income would be 16 million ISK per hour while you have the potential of earning 44 million ISK per hour. That's a 28 million ISK per hour difference.

Next time you read someone saying they make billions a week by trading, remember that 28 million per hour. Now you know where those billions come from.

Khemul Zula
Amarr
Keisen Trade League
Posted - 2009.09.06 14:41:00 - [11]
 

And for the obvious questions...

What are you trying to build?
T1 items are picked up off of rats and dumped on the market a lot without a consideration for mineral costs.
How are you pricing the mineral cost?
Take salvage for instance. Sell orders for salvage parts can be 10-20% higher then buy orders. As a result the people who want salvage parts don't necessarily use the sell orders to aquire the materials needed (I've had sell orders sit for a week before while a buy order filled in hours).


But generally the answer, as others have pointed out, is that EVE being a game and not real life. Everyone isn't running around with an education in business (or advisors with an education in business). Concepts like 'opportunity costs' or even 'break-even point' are rather foreign concepts.

Kestrix
Posted - 2009.09.06 16:14:00 - [12]
 

It's not hard to understand really. If I decide to build a Rifter for instance and I start out the operation with 1,000,000 isk in my wallet, I buy what I can't mine and mine the rest, build the Rifter and sell it. If I have 1,000,500 isk in my wallet at the end of the operation then I've made a profit of 500 isk. What you are complaining about is that I'm not playing by your rules that I'm not adding onto the cost all the mineral costs, the BPO the Hulk and the second account with the Orca. All I look for is that my wallet ammount is higher than when I started and if that cuts you out of the market then I'm a happy man as I watch my under-priced products sell.

PS No I don't want to sell my raw minerals for a bigger profit, I like to build stuff with it.

Emily Spankratchet
Minmatar
Pragmatics
Posted - 2009.09.06 16:20:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Kestrix
PS No I don't want to sell my raw minerals for a bigger profit, I like to build stuff with it.

Confused Do you still like to build stuff if you know that someone's going to buy it and immediately reprocess it because you're selling it for less that the components are worth?

Jowen Datloran
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2009.09.06 16:27:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Jowen Datloran on 06/09/2009 16:29:09
Let us kill off a general misconception here:
Originally by: Washell Olivaw

People like you are making other people extremely rich.


No he is not. Not unless those people are engaging in RMT.

EVE isk is a virtual currency and the moment CCP decides to turn off their server it does not really matter how much of this virtual currency you have accumulated.

EVE is at most a hobby to people and if they are efficient; a hobby they do not have to pay for. But like all hobbies and computer games in general its main purpose is to entertain. If you gain some virtual wealth or not while being entertained matters really not. If I want to mine, I mine. If I want to sell stuff, I sell stuff. If I have to lower my prices for my stuff to sell, I will do that because if they do not sell I become bored.

Of course, some people are being entertained by playing this virtual market. While they do not really stand to win or lose anything, the act of playing the market is what keeps them going. Sometimes they do get illusions of grandeur about what they are actually doing though.

This discussion shares similarities with people claiming I should read do-it-self books instead of novels.

P.S. Think about this: Why do some people play on slot machines hour after hour?

000Hunter000
Gallente
Missiles 'R' Us
Posted - 2009.09.06 17:51:00 - [15]
 

Here's a tip, buy their items at sub manufacturing prices then sell them at higher prices. Very Happy

a few days ago... i found some skillbooks at half the price of the standard market price... so... i bought em en sold them for a lil less then the marketprice Twisted Evil

PerrinAybarra
Cosmic Fusion
Advocated Destruction
Posted - 2009.09.06 17:57:00 - [16]
 

i keep eeing people worry over the time spent mining the minearals. News flash some people do enjoy the mining side and fid it fun. No stress involved and lots of time to just chat away. So quit already it's their money to play how they like.

Washell Olivaw
Posted - 2009.09.06 18:01:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Jowen Datloran
P.S. Think about this: Why do some people play on slot machines hour after hour?


Usually, because the next quarter is going to win them the jackpot, magically fix their lives and right all wrongs in the world. At least, those were the reasons of the gambling addicts I spoke to.

In that light, I'm not seeing the relevance to this discussion. No way to strike gold in the manufacturing business.

Scout Ops
Red Federation
Posted - 2009.10.04 16:01:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Scout Ops on 04/10/2009 16:01:42
Originally by: Washell Olivaw

People like you are making other people extremely rich.

If you have a stack of minerals you can sell on the market for a 1,000k ISK, by all means, consider them free because you mined them yourself. But if you make a stack of items which will sell for 800k ISK, you haven't made 800k, you actually lost 200k + time and manufacturing fees. In addition, someone will pick it up and reprocess it for a easy 200k profit. Minerals always have their market value.

The second thing is oppertunity costs. If you can mine minerals at the rate of 20 million isk an hour in market value, but you're capable of running missions at 40 million ISK an hour then you would make more money by doing the missions and just buying the minerals. Mining yourself wouldn't be free, it would be costing you 20 million an hour. Now lets include the 20% loss of the previous example and assume a 10% profit on proper manufacturing and pricing. Your income would be 16 million ISK per hour while you have the potential of earning 44 million ISK per hour. That's a 28 million ISK per hour difference.

Next time you read someone saying they make billions a week by trading, remember that 28 million per hour. Now you know where those billions come from.



don't bother.

its like screaming on the desert. they will never understand.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.10.04 16:20:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Kestrix
PS No I don't want to sell my raw minerals for a bigger profit, I like to build stuff with it.
If that's the case, why do you even bother selling it?

If you're going to bother selling it, how come you prefer 500 ISK to 500k?

Governor LePetomane
Rock Ridge Brokerage Solutions
Posted - 2009.10.04 16:33:00 - [20]
 

So this old chestnut comes to GD finally. I wonder if the percentage of "I mined it so it has no value" people will be higher here than S+I or about the same.

Mating cry of the clueless newbie: "IT'S FREEEE! IT'S FREEEEE! RAWK! RAWK!"


Serge Bastana
Gallente
GWA Corp
Posted - 2009.10.04 16:39:00 - [21]
 

Best idea is buy up their products manufactured with the 'free' minerals they mined and use them to build all the mining barges, orcas and mining mods they use so you can sell them back.

Jita is probably jam packed full of people who don't know or care about opportunity costs. What interests me is do they progress further up the production tree to make the bigger stuff?

Zartanic
Posted - 2009.10.04 16:39:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Zartanic on 04/10/2009 16:40:46
People don't understand opportunity cost or they are lazy. It's the same reason ME slots are always taken up as players research to 100, for example, when 10 is the maximum past which there is no benefit. It's why when the rig changes came out some players spent weeks researching the BPO's to get a 10% saving and ignored the 500%+ markups even on unresearched BPO's.

In EVE these errors are not punished as they would be in real life as you can't go bust.

Scout Ops
Red Federation
Posted - 2009.10.04 16:45:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Serge Bastana
Best idea is buy up their products manufactured with the 'free' minerals they mined and use them to build all the mining barges, orcas and mining mods they use so you can sell them back.

Jita is probably jam packed full of people who don't know or care about opportunity costs. What interests me is do they progress further up the production tree to make the bigger stuff?


not possible when hundreds of wise manufacturers are selling k-thousands of undercost stuff. No matter you buy em all, they will just relist again at stupid price.

answer is not to manufacture, at least not for profit.

Rordan D'Kherr
Amarr
Posted - 2009.10.04 16:51:00 - [24]
 

Selling stuff in Jita = no profit.

Ghoest
Posted - 2009.10.04 17:10:00 - [25]
 

Some people try invention just to do it(which is reasonable) then they have to unload the BPCs and the only way to do it is at a loss. I think a lot of this happens and makes up a large portion of the market.

Nicholas Barker
Deez Nuts.
Posted - 2009.10.04 17:15:00 - [26]
 

isn't it true you can make more money selling your mins than using them to build something and selling that?

Ann Can
Posted - 2009.10.04 17:22:00 - [27]
 

They do it because they can

Suppose it costs you 100 ISK worth of stuff to make something, but I find it on a mission or someone drops it in PVP. For me it costs nothing to make it, all I have to do is sell it. So maybe I sell it for 50, even though it cost you 100 to make the same thing. The person I sell it to resells it for 75, it cost him 50, but it still costs you 100.

If things are being sold at under build cost, then there's just too many of those things around. Make something else.

Governor LePetomane
Rock Ridge Brokerage Solutions
Posted - 2009.10.04 17:24:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Nicholas Barker
isn't it true you can make more money selling your mins than using them to build something and selling that?


Duuuuude maaaaaaaaaan, what's with your negative profit motive capitalism vibe? That's harsh.

Don't you know piling up a bunch of minerals and doing a right click on a BPC is fun? Is your soul so eaten up with filthy lucre that you can't see the pure joy in waiting 10 hours for a job to finish up? I feel bad for you brah.

Southern Suzy
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.10.04 17:28:00 - [29]
 

minerals are cheaper from items.

buy orders on simple small items well under market value, reprocess and build from that.

It cuts the mineral prices used for production by nearly 50%

Vysnaite
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2009.10.04 17:37:00 - [30]
 

Supply is too big. Increase demand and cut down supply, but then again people will jump into the profit wagon and we will be in the same position as we are now. Best option is to reduce item drop in missions and remove 60% of asteroids from high-sec, x% from low sec and x% from 0.0, reducing the supply. This is foolwed by increased prices, upset consumers and inflation.


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