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Captain Tardbar
State Protectorate
Posted - 2009.10.02 19:29:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Verx Interis
"If I mine it myself it's free!!!!!!!!!!" logic.


Well it is or at least eventually it approaching free the more they mine.

Arguably the fact that they provide their own minerals should drive the demand down for rocks over the long term so it in theory the fact they do this should actually bring the costs of directly purchasing minerals down.

Jarna
Amarr
Air EVE
Posted - 2009.10.02 19:54:00 - [32]
 

I've also seen it that when I have bought the supposedly only item in a station, when the market reloads after the purchase, there is another one there.
I'm not quite sure how that is done.
Maybe they think you are that type of person?

Bongo Debbie
Minmatar
In Praise Of Shadows
Posted - 2009.10.02 19:56:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Stargazer Monk
...thats my point, I am not competition, 1 item sellers are not competition lol.


um yes we are, when we put the effort in...


baltec1
Posted - 2009.10.02 20:13:00 - [34]
 

I get the other problem. I will play the 0.01 isk wars but then someone will come in and savagely cut the profit line meaning I am stuck with goods I cant shift untill the numbnuts has sold all of their stuff at a much reduced price.

Su Bling
Market Price Undercutters
Posted - 2009.10.02 20:14:00 - [35]
 

I hate guys like that too.

Originally by: baltec1
I get the other problem. I will play the 0.01 isk wars but then someone will come in and savagely cut the profit line meaning I am stuck with goods I cant shift untill the numbnuts has sold all of their stuff at a much reduced price.

Schayol Sunkeeper
Imperial Crusade Syndicate
Posted - 2009.10.02 20:58:00 - [36]
 

i usually undercut by stupid amounts and yet people still tend to follow me. very annoying, but actually fun if you singlehandly crash the market for an item that way.

NO one of them EVER thought of just buying the item from me and add it to their stack of items. stupid people

Anastaisa Gabron
Posted - 2009.10.02 21:10:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: baltec1
I get the other problem. I will play the 0.01 isk wars but then someone will come in and savagely cut the profit line meaning I am stuck with goods I cant shift untill the numbnuts has sold all of their stuff at a much reduced price.


It could just be that those (of us) who occasionally do this tire of your .01 isk games, cause we dont sit at keys constantly or bot. So we say F-you, and decide to set the price point lower.

Personally, I do this when I see what for me would be an obscene markup (2-300% or more) on an item and I am getting .01 isked. If you were to sell at my price, I would stay. If its just a 1 off low volume (and dosen't seem to _keep_ happening) I would stay. But when someone seems to be acting obsessive/compulsive to "corner" the market with the .01 isk game, and I have room in my margin, I gladly make huge drops, see how far down you are willing to follow.

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2009.10.02 21:24:00 - [38]
 

I've seen a lot of people write really long essays about how this is the result of perfectly logical market decisions, but really. . .


Quote:
Quite a good number are bots that undercuts with precision. Note the the 1-2 secs differences between the train of orders and you'll have a hard time believing a human is behind those orders.

Jarna
Amarr
Air EVE
Posted - 2009.10.02 21:27:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: Jarna on 02/10/2009 21:28:17
I once bought 1000 Warrior I's for 5k ISK each.
Took them to a system that was selling for 50k, and undercut at 25K.
Within a few days, there were sell orders up for 6K.
I moved to another system, and by the next day, they had moved in at 6K.

Shows how much they were being overpriced. I found out it's only like 3K to make them. (At the time.)
In theory, it should be cheaper now.

I need to try again. I was only able to sell like 300 of them.

Khemul Zula
Amarr
Keisen Trade League
Posted - 2009.10.02 22:46:00 - [40]
 

Forum necromancy ftw! Shocked

Shikagi Sitami
Posted - 2009.10.02 22:56:00 - [41]
 

Break the market utterly...

If you see a consistent supply of an item (an ammo as an example here) that costs you 20 ISK to produce and you see the market is 100'ish put yours up at 99, then 90, then 80... undercut by a massive swing each time. If you've got a lot of supply, break up your sell orders and use the same 0.** so you know which orders are yours (as in 100.37, ex). Underbid yourself consistently, just but a narrow margin, and hold your competition in the middle.

Bots won't bother to undercut you by more than an isk or less, while players may try to swing your order hard, invariably pushing one of your orders down while the others remain in play.

Now, on your item that costs 20 ISK to produce, you can go as low as you want... even below 20... but someone will buy your entire stock when you reach their 'I can profit by this' margin. They'll buy your fire-sale lot and relist, but you've broken up your order so you're still beating them on the sale. So they'll either move the item to another region, or sit on it until the market bottoms and rebounds to within their acceptable profit range.

Do this consistently, with 5-10, or more, sale orders and buy orders on a given item, and you can quite literally break the market on that item for quite some time. The hate mail you will receive is classic, hilarious, and can lead to a war declaration if you're not hiding in an NPC corp.

Gunnanmon
Gallente
PURPLE.
Posted - 2009.10.02 22:59:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Verx Interis
"If I mine it myself it's free!!!!!!!!!!" logic.


Well, maybe it is. Does macro-mining really cost anything?

Khemul Zula
Amarr
Keisen Trade League
Posted - 2009.10.02 23:27:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Gunnanmon
Originally by: Verx Interis
"If I mine it myself it's free!!!!!!!!!!" logic.


Well, maybe it is. Does macro-mining really cost anything?
Possibly a one-time cost to aquire the macro. But considering the flaw in the logic has nothing to do with time-investment it doesn't really matter. Laughing

DeODokktor
Caldari
Dark Templars
The Fonz Presidium
Posted - 2009.10.02 23:51:00 - [44]
 

So your selling an item for much less than it's worth, and lots of people are undercutting you..

The two are in conflict, if someone is selling something below it's worth then (usually) it's worth buying so you can make that 15% that they dont mind missing.

Some tech2 items are undercut below build value but due to the fact that CCP doesnt allow you to refine tech2 back to the production parts used (depending on item) then it's hard to spin those markets in your favor..

If they are undercutting you and the market isnt running dry then they are not selling below worth.. They are just selling below what others might be willing to pay if the market was at a higher level.

Kiviar
Caldari
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2009.10.03 01:28:00 - [45]
 

I find it funny how everyone's "breaking the market" stories leave out one key final part.

A trader came in, saw the market, bought everything up and made billions.

Intense Thinker
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.10.03 01:32:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: baltec1
I get the other problem. I will play the 0.01 isk wars but then someone will come in and savagely cut the profit line meaning I am stuck with goods I cant shift untill the numbnuts has sold all of their stuff at a much reduced price.


I'll do that, I work out my costs and as long as I'm making a 1% profit on the item I'm happy. Using perfectly researched BPs help a ton too.

MightyRhinox
Minmatar
Rhinox Heavy Industries
Twilight Military Industrial Complex Alliance
Posted - 2009.10.03 03:12:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Bongo Debbie
Originally by: Stargazer Monk
...thats my point, I am not competition, 1 item sellers are not competition lol.


um yes we are, when we put the effort in...




800mil for a DCII? WTF?

Veldya
Guristari Freedom Fighters
Posted - 2009.10.03 04:59:00 - [48]
 

CCP has dropped the ball with trading, so many of them are bots and it is so easy for them to find out, I could probably list 20 bots within an hour of play.

It is easy to screw with them once you know they are bots because they will respond to certain market movements.

Bongo Debbie
Minmatar
In Praise Of Shadows
Posted - 2009.10.03 05:57:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: MightyRhinox
Originally by: Bongo Debbie
Originally by: Stargazer Monk
...thats my point, I am not competition, 1 item sellers are not competition lol.


um yes we are, when we put the effort in...




800mil for a DCII? WTF?


880 mil

dont use bots on my watch

Mire Stoude
The Undesirables
Posted - 2009.10.03 06:15:00 - [50]
 

Many times, if I'm deciding to get out of a market due to undercutters, I will take the little remaining stock I have and sell it 10-20% lower than market "value." The .01's (I'm a .01'er, myself) will usually follow suit, then if I still haven't sold my goods by the time they reprice, I put it 10-20% lower again. I do this until I've sold my remaining stock or they stop .01'ing me.

Keep in mind, the only thing that makes me decide to do this is when I'm trying to sell a low volume and some person who's selling about 2 months worth of volume keeps undercutting me. Although, if this person just let me sell my stuff, they would make much more in the long run than they're gaining by competing in the short term.

After that, I'll keep an eye on the item. When I see there's profit to be made again I jump back in. Rinse & repeat if necessary.

Swiftgaze
Elysium Trading Company
Posted - 2009.10.03 07:11:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Verx Interis

The majority of large undercuts are not some market-fu to get rid of competition. They usually look like this

Laz0rBeam II - 288 - 4,522,999.86 ISK
Laz0rBeam II - 540 - 4,522,999.85 ISK
Laz0rBeam II - 351 - 4,522,999.84 ISK [normal market logic stops here]
Laz0rBeam II - 2 - 3,500,000 ISK [a non-trader just trying to sell their extra crap, order usually clears in 2-3 hours]
Laz0rBeam II - 434 - 3,499,999.99 [Moron]

If you don't get it, someone drops the price by a lot because they don't use the market, then a normal trader who seems to not pay attention decides to ruin it for everyone by putting some massive quantity on the market for a lot less instead of waiting an hour for that stuff to sell..

Continuing on this, the number of people that undercut orders 20j away (15j of which are lowsec) is baffling.



Ahhhh so true.. so true. Shocked

Sharon Lynn
Posted - 2009.10.03 08:32:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Rawr Cristina
Originally by: Stargazer Monk
I keep dropping 1m at a time


If there's anything worse than .1 undercutters, it's people who undercut by MORE than .1 and ruin profits for everyone Neutral


That would be me Smile

I usually drop the price by 1 million, sometimes even 5 or 10 million.
Most market traders in jita check the market several times a day, i check only once a day and often less.

So there's no time for the 1 isk nonsense and even if i had the time i still wouldn't do it.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2009.10.03 09:52:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Rawr Cristina
Originally by: Stargazer Monk
I keep dropping 1m at a time


If there's anything worse than .1 undercutters, it's people who undercut by MORE than .1 and ruin profits for everyone Neutral


Why hello there.

Swiftgaze
Elysium Trading Company
Posted - 2009.10.03 10:16:00 - [54]
 

Well nice to have the names of some of you morons now.

Stargazer Monk
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2009.10.03 10:21:00 - [55]
 

lol what's this post doing back out here, old story is old.
Had a happy ending for me though...maybe not so good for the undercuttersWink.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.10.03 10:25:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Captain Tardbar
Originally by: Verx Interis
"If I mine it myself it's free!!!!!!!!!!" logic.
Well it is or at least eventually it approaching free the more they mine.
Unless you mean that they mine so much that they manage to drive the market price down to 0.1 ISK by sheer over-abundance, then no.
Originally by: Gunnanmon
Well, maybe it is. Does macro-mining really cost anything?
It's not about how the mining costs — it's about how much the minerals are worth. You always pay something, and just because you pay in minerals rather than directly in ISK doesn't change the fact that you've incurred a cost in creating that item.


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