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The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2009.09.04 23:03:00 - [121]
 

Originally by: NUKUNNI TRADING
Edited by: NUKUNNI TRADING on 04/09/2009 22:18:07
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: MalVortex
Geddon Navy and Scorpion navy seem overshadowed by their Tier 3 counterparts. Between the higher-base armor/shield and the resist bonus, these faction ships actually carry less real buffer than the Abaddon or Rokh. While the Navy Tier 1s do carry an extra low/mid on their primary tanking rack, and extra fitting, I don't see them coming out ahead. Any gains they do achieve will be completley overshadowed by their cost - which will be rather high given the FW LP only.




BWAHAHHAHAHHAHHA. You dont realise how awesome 4mid geddon is, do you? Its actually almost perfect amarr SOLO BOAT. Guns + hvy neut + full mid setup (tackle, mwd, injector) + possibility to put decent passive tank INCLUDING 1x LAR. Drone bay lets you bring 5x heavies for damage or even 5x med ECM for GTFO action. Its like dream come true for me.


CC


Its basicly a Mega without her main weakness, blasters.

The Domi looks a bit to good and the Fleet Pest get the short end of the stick. You could simply increase the damage bonuses a bit to get her a bit extra punch, since unlike the Raven it still does crap damage while losing a utility highslot and a medslot for it what reduces the only thing a Tempest got, flexibility...

Also any chance you take a 2. look at the tier 1 faction cruisers? They where halveway ok for nano but now they are actualy worse than T1 ships and I only seen a single one of them in PVP since they got introduced, and It was basicly a new player that wanted a shiny ship and jumped into the wrong system.
They basicly lack any kind of real roles or even a basic concept behind them, like the Navy Exequeror, that could be awsome Cruiser sized Ranis but simply lacks the 50m³ Dronebay, huge structure buffer and 4. med + powergrid to fit at least a large shield buffer. Simply a concept that where never finished and never realy worked as the extra speed was a huge sale magnet because of the lack of survieability to make it happen. Crying or Very sad








Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2009.09.04 23:03:00 - [122]
 

Originally by: MalVortex

The same argument exists for the Abaddon. Except its insurable, and will cost like 1/8 or less for the hull. Hell, you can solo right now just fine in a Geddon if you so desired. CPU gets tight with a heavy neut, but its quite possible. Injector/point/web, sod the MWD in lowsec. If you go soloing in 0.0 in faction battleships, props to you, but it wont last long. Either way, the ship does nothing new that isn't doable right now, and Amarrian ships will never be solo powerhouses like Gallente can due to the nature of pulse laser tracking.



CPU is not an issue. I already mount heavy neut + mwd + injector on normal geddon. +70 cpu and +1mid? You will use 30 on web, 40 is spare leftover that will enable not only to use large neut but also to change some ANPs into EANMs or put LAR. MWD is "mandatory" even in lowsec, well at least for me. As for soloing with baddon/geddon - baddon lacks anti-cruiser mods. Sure you can neut/web if you really want to (tho losing DPS for neut is stupid, wheras AN geddon will keep maxdps with it) - but still your DPS if enemy increases transveral is just pityful. 5x mediums cant be even compared to 5x heavies.

Also remember it has more armor than abaddon and still has +1 lowslot over it so abaddons 25% resist bonus can be somewhat "negated" with more resist mods. Quite comparable ships.

Quote:

If you have the isk to drop on a solo Navy Geddon (FW Lp will drive their price point through the roof), you probably have the isk for a Nightmare, which is an even more powerful ship for the job you just described. Better tank, better fittings, two neuts, great tracking, great damage. Grab crystals and blue pill and go fraps people throwing themselves onto you.



I know how nightmare works. And its main advantage is just shieldtank - can be boosted via crystals, wheras armor tank gets only passive boost. Still i hope CCP will redo FW LP store/LP gain so prices will come down. But thats another issue.

Karl Luckner
Caldari
Posted - 2009.09.04 23:06:00 - [123]
 

Originally by: Sera Ryskin
Edited by: Sera Ryskin on 04/09/2009 21:01:22
Overall these changes look like a step in the right direction, pending fitting tests on the actual server to see if you've given them a proper amount of grid/CPU, with two exceptions:



1) The Navy Hookbill: it is a railboat, and it should continue to be a railboat. Please remember that Caldari use more than just missiles, and deserve some attention paid to their other weapon systems. Also, since frigate missiles are currently laughably bad, this is not a good change.

Instead, give it 25% hybrid turret damage, 10% hybrid optimal range, and 5% shield resists, with enough grid to fit a full rack of 150mm rails, a MWD, cap booster, and medium shield extender without any grid mods (to make it different from the Harpy, which can not fit as good a mid-range setup). Keeping both extra high slots with enough grid/CPU to fit T2 standard launchers would be even more awesome.



2) The Navy Scorpion: honestly, this is just terrible, and arguably even worse than a standard Raven. Sure, it's got a ton of EHP, a resist bonus, and 8 slots for tank, but in PvP dps is FAR more important than tank, and the missing launcher compared to the standard Raven is a huge drawback, while the missing range bonus takes away one of the Raven's major advantages. Add in the huge price thanks to only being available with FW LPs, and you have a ship that will see little use.


I honestly don't know what to do with this one without just making a better torp Raven. Perhaps dust off that old ECM/gank Scorpion you had when you were nerfing ECM ships? 6 launchers, ROF bonus, 30% ECM strength per level would be a fun ship to fly, if a bit expensive considering its chances of being immediately primaried.


While I absolutely agree with Hookbill and rails, I think the Scorpion could fill a role.
It has more CPU then CNR, while having 2 less launcher slots. Combined with the resistance bonus this could result in a fairly good shield transfer battleship. Plenty of midlsots for injector, painter, mwd and tank.
But goddamn it, it still has no left wing !

Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
Posted - 2009.09.04 23:16:00 - [124]
 

Originally by: MalVortex


Likewise, I see no compelling reason for the Navy Apoc to keep its 7.5% optimal bonus. For the role it serves, that bonus is simply mediocre. Buff it or change it.



HELL NO!!!! The range bonus is AWESOME! Its the main reason why The navy apoc is one of the best if not the best mission runner ship! I improved my mission income per hour by 17% from switching from abaddon to navy apoc!

Do not touch the PERFECT APOCALYPSE!

Meldorn Vaash
Caldari
Posted - 2009.09.04 23:35:00 - [125]
 

Another Thought... Since you're "fixing" things... Is there some reason why the Republic Fleet Firetail is green and not the more traditional Minmatar rust red?

Azumo
Posted - 2009.09.04 23:37:00 - [126]
 

Edited by: Azumo on 04/09/2009 23:39:56
You're killing the original Fleet Pest! It is so damn good with 6 medslots! Loved it and used a lot in the past (before switching to machariel). Today I found last of my good'old fleetpests deep in lowsec and blown ppl on it... It still rocks, mostly due to 6 meds, and what you guys are going to implement makes it absolutely different ship!

Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
Posted - 2009.09.04 23:40:00 - [127]
 

Edited by: Seishi Maru on 04/09/2009 23:41:01
I really hope CCP pay attention, READ the input from this thread and notice that players are getting FED UP with their view on minmatar balance approach. Not a single race got massively negative feedback as minmatar ones? Care to guess why? Basically because the balance reasoning used upon minmatar ships has been doing NONSENSE at all! The 1st naglfar boost had to be MASSIVELY bashed by the players to CCP notice how off the spot they were.


Do not repeat same mistake. Pay attention on the hundreds of players that point you very well why things are not OK.


I repeat.. your balancing ideas are OUT OF TRACK AND REALITY for minmatar for long time already.

As some said.. the fleet tempest has a SMALL CHANCE of become a good Ship. But ONLY, and ONLY if CCP makes a HELL of a good job rebalancing projectiles! And NO! 5% falloff is not a good job! Little hint.. it a FACTION ship with 7 turrets and 2 damage bonuses end up having LESS damage than a Megatron using only 6 turrets.... THEN ITS WRONG! And NO ONE IN UNIVERSE can make reasoning on that!

The typhoon approach on this new ship is just a joke ! The ship is not pathetic only because the typhoon hull itself being good and because of the swap on HP. The 5/5 trick is NOWHERE, not even on drug induced dreams equivalent to 1 extra slot! Give it a 6/6 AND better fittings OR do like the others and give it an extra slot!

Sera Ryskin
Posted - 2009.09.04 23:46:00 - [128]
 

Originally by: Azumo
Edited by: Azumo on 04/09/2009 23:39:56
You're killing the original Fleet Pest! It is so damn good with 6 medslots! Loved it and used a lot in the past (before switching to machariel). Today I found last of my good'old fleetpests deep in lowsec and blown ppl on it... It still rocks, mostly due to 6 meds, and what you guys are going to implement makes it absolutely different ship!



I'm going to have to agree with this. 7 guns is good, but removing a mid slot is a big nerf. Keep the slot layout the same, just add another gun slot and re-balance grid/CPU appropriately.

Ulviirala Vauryndar
Gallente
Vauryndar Dalharil
Posted - 2009.09.04 23:52:00 - [129]
 

Edited by: Ulviirala Vauryndar on 04/09/2009 23:55:24

Originally by: CCP Ytterbium

Amarr Navy Slicer:

• New slot layout: 3 high, 2 med and 5 low slots, 2 turrets, no launchers
• Hitpoints: not changed, keeps 50% more hit points buffer next to its tech 1 counterpart (Punisher)



BBBAAAAAAAHHHHAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAA *cries* :~( 3 laz0rs look cooler than just two of them! *sniffs* it was like a "I got 3 laz0rs AND headlights, b****!" in the face of a Crusader pilot!

And yes, it's a Executioner hull, not a Punisher Razz

Proof (from the old classic client):
http://www.abload.de/img/navyslicer09n15.pngPlease visit your user settings to enable images.


Ap0ll0n
Gallente
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.04 23:54:00 - [130]
 

When are tier 3 BS΄s getting some love?

Why can΄t i have a 8/4/8 slot Navy Abaddon in black? Crying or Very sad

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2009.09.04 23:55:00 - [131]
 

Ha ha, they're nerfing the fleet pest.

-1 mid -1 utility high for +1 gun Laughing

Linas IV
Posted - 2009.09.05 00:00:00 - [132]
 

Edited by: Linas IV on 05/09/2009 00:01:31
Please read this:

Concerning the Tempest Fleet Issue:

Originally by: CCP Ytterbium
... Adding more DPS is worth the slot don't you think?


On a Tempest with 1xGyrostab and 800mm ACs the additional Turret gives exactly 21 DPS more
than the Siege Launcher you could fit there normaly, and thats calculated with all skills LV5. (without the gyro its laughable 5 dps!)

This Combined with not enough grid to fit a full rack of 1400s leads to only one conclusion:

No, that is not worth loosing an additional slot!

Therfore, either increase the PG a lot, rethink large ACs, or leave the 6th Medslot.

Faith d'Amarr
Amarr
Posted - 2009.09.05 00:28:00 - [133]
 

Edited by: Faith d''Amarr on 05/09/2009 00:29:21
As yet another lover of the Dominix for mission purposes, I cannot help but think:


Ah, finally a solution to the "droneboat advancement stops at a T1 tier 1 battleship".

Now it'll be "droneboat advancement stops at the navy version of a T1 tier 1 battleship.....that can only be bought through the factional warfare loyalty store, not through the corporation loyalty stores that sells T1 tier 2 navy battleships. Up yours, mission runners - no Navy Dominix for you unless you buy one on contract for money; God forbid that we actually sell you useful navy ships for missioning to buy with the currency of loyalty points gained through missions. We made that mistake with the Raven Naval Issue, and we sure don't want to repeat it".


Now, I doubt that that has been any part of the reasoning - the reasoning probably running more along the lines of "let's try to make FW more interesting with unique rewards", but it does seem a rather silly way of doing so.

Siigari Kitawa
Gallente
Perditus Peregrinus
Posted - 2009.09.05 00:30:00 - [134]
 

I gotta say I'm lit and actually suprised by CCP.

kudos! *clap* I can fit EANMs to a Navy Mega now lol xD

Now let's talk briefly about the new Dominix.

Extra mid good, no extra drone damage bad. -- THIS IS WHAT PLAYERS REALLY WANT. We want to lift the friggin drone damage cap.

Let's kill the extra mid in favor of a 25% damage, hitpoints per level bonus \o/

Kayosoni
Caldari
Destructive Influence
IT Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.05 01:10:00 - [135]
 

Originally by: fuxinos
Originally by: Kayosoni
Originally by: fuxinos
Just compare the PG of the Scorp (which looks like an shield version of the phoon) with the Phoon.

Dont be so stupid and give Caldari this bad powergrid over and over.

Your just taking away their flexibility...


you're dumb. Compare the navy scorp grid with the widow's grid.


Read again fool, I said "dont give Caldari this bad powergrid".... that was related to all Caldari ships and I was just comparring Scorp with Typhoon here as an example how much they lack in PG...

So, who is dumb now? Rolling Eyes


how does it lack PG? it seems to me like it has plenty.

Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
Posted - 2009.09.05 01:10:00 - [136]
 

Originally by: Siigari Kitawa
I gotta say I'm lit and actually suprised by CCP.

kudos! *clap* I can fit EANMs to a Navy Mega now lol xD

Now let's talk briefly about the new Dominix.

Extra mid good, no extra drone damage bad. -- THIS IS WHAT PLAYERS REALLY WANT. We want to lift the friggin drone damage cap.

Let's kill the extra mid in favor of a 25% damage, hitpoints per level bonus \o/


LOL you insane? You want 75% extra drone damage? Look to what tempest got.. 1 less mid 1 less high .. 13% more dps (When you take drone dps into consideration.

Come back to reality.... Anything above 15% drone damage per level would be OMFG overpowered.

Poba
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2009.09.05 01:21:00 - [137]
 

Originally by: Seishi Maru


LOL you insane? You want 75% extra drone damage? Look to what tempest got.. 1 less mid 1 less high .. 13% more dps (When you take drone dps into consideration.

Come back to reality.... Anything above 15% drone damage per level would be OMFG overpowered.


fail poaster

drone solo damage is crap when u compare it to the other damage types that can put mods on to increase damage

a better drone bonus would be really nice for navy domi <3 i would personally like to see a reduction in turrets and more focus on the drones

altho CCP didnt do a aweful job, the extra mid for a drone nav link or omni directional tracking unit is very nice

i could live with new domi, altho i would be happier if they gave it a little more drone focus at the expense of its guns

Lili Lu
Posted - 2009.09.05 01:25:00 - [138]
 

Edited by: Lili Lu on 05/09/2009 01:33:03
Thanks for your efforts at making new ships. However, as others have pointed out, it seems that Minmatar once again comes up short.

Tempest- I never liked this hull (as I don't like the Apoc either) but many other folks do and they rightly point out that a seventh gun slot does not make up for losing a mid. Figure it out.

Typhoon- This hull I love. I disagree with those wanting 6/6 hardpoints. However, the speed buff is nothing compared to an extra low or mid. Keep the agility buff, drop the speed buff. Also, you brought the geddon 25m3 closer to the typhoon in dronebay size. While I also like the geddon, this strikes me as odd.

And, fix projectiles. I think they need just a little more rof and clip size might help the dps situation.

Lastly, it sucks that the tier 1 faction BSs will only be available in FW. Sorry, I don't roleplay and do not ever want to be locked out of any space. Please consider making these ships available as their tier 2 counterparts are. You should find other ways to "lure" people into the ****ty and unblanced FW. For instance how about recognizing that jamming ships totally screw over gallente faction warfare runners, while Caldari FW runners can laugh at close range blasters (from what I hear and if it's anything like running guristas v serp missions).

Lee Dalton
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.09.05 01:25:00 - [139]
 

lol, Minmatar are pre nerfed - as usual.

ArmyOfMe
Hysera.
Posted - 2009.09.05 01:37:00 - [140]
 

so basicly u have given the tempest the 7th turret slot its needed for ages but removed an entire slot for it, greatRolling Eyes
phoon, u have changed into what ppl have asked for since it was realased, but u now give it to us and call it a fleet issue(wowRolling Eyes)

and what the hell does the domi need another mid for????????????

couldnt u at least have been decent enough to have given the normal tempest a boost before u did something like this??????

RedSplat
Posted - 2009.09.05 01:42:00 - [141]
 

Now i KNOW CCP hate Minmatar,

Thanks again for subpar BS.

Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
Posted - 2009.09.05 01:52:00 - [142]
 

Originally by: Poba
Originally by: Seishi Maru


LOL you insane? You want 75% extra drone damage? Look to what tempest got.. 1 less mid 1 less high .. 13% more dps (When you take drone dps into consideration.

Come back to reality.... Anything above 15% drone damage per level would be OMFG overpowered.


fail poaster

drone solo damage is crap when u compare it to the other damage types that can put mods on to increase damage

a better drone bonus would be really nice for navy domi <3 i would personally like to see a reduction in turrets and more focus on the drones

altho CCP didnt do a aweful job, the extra mid for a drone nav link or omni directional tracking unit is very nice

i could live with new domi, altho i would be happier if they gave it a little more drone focus at the expense of its guns


fail poster? Andf you fail player then.

The domnix he proposed coudl deal 870 DPS from DRONES ONLY!

Now imagine a ship that can field 870 dps with 6 high slots dedicated to NOS or neuts?

Now imagine this same ship when you fit guns on it as a normal ship. And you can deal damage in excess of 1600 dps?

That while having more mods and lows than any of oposition?


Lol if that is not overpoered.. then please I want my tempest to have base speed of 480 ms and align speed of 3 secconds...

ArmyOfMe
Hysera.
Posted - 2009.09.05 01:52:00 - [143]
 

Edited by: ArmyOfMe on 05/09/2009 02:00:30
Originally by: NightmareX

My normal Tempest eats Ravens to breakfast easily from time to time with an armor tank and dual heavy neuts.


want a chance to prove that?
im pretty sure i can get your tempest below 80% armor before u manage to kill my ravenWink

Simon Monkoto
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.05 02:03:00 - [144]
 

Hmmm I like most of the changes, although some of the changes to Minmatar make me go ugh

While you're at it though how about some changes to pirate faction ships? The faction cruisers could definitely use some love most notably the Ashimmu, Cynabal and the Vigilant each to varying degrees.

Conar Balcos
Minmatar
ZERO T0LERANCE
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.05 02:03:00 - [145]
 

Its not like the pest is the weekest bs anyway, and now you take a med slot from it while the rest of the faction bs gets buffed ?

As a minmatar pilot i can tell you it does not look like a improvment at all.

Manu Hermanus
FaDoyToy
Posted - 2009.09.05 02:06:00 - [146]
 

Originally by: CCP Ytterbium

Scorpion Navy Issue:

• Slot layout: 7 high, 8 med, 4 low slots, 5 launchers, 4 turrets, 350 calibration, 3 rig slots
• Fittings: 787 CPU, 10350 powergrid, 350 calibration, 3 rig slots
• New bonuses: 5% bonus to cruise and siege launcher rate of fire and 5% shield resistances per level
• Hitpoints: +50% hit points on hull (8203), armor (8203) and shields (9961)
• Dronebay unchanged next to standard hull
• Speed: +10% max velocity
• Sensor: +25% gravimetric sensor strength, -50 signature radius next to standard hull



Confused

I really don't see anything this ship can do that another caldari ship can do better.

plain t1 scorp at least has ewar.
t1 raven has more damage, and longer range. and then the cnr one of the top pve ships out there.
rokh at least has 8 turret slots with optimal and resist bonus, being one of the better fleet snipers.

okay wait, it could probably get a super high eft ehp number! yep real useful Rolling Eyes

scorp navy should have 6 launcher slots and a 150m3 drone bay with 125 Bandwidth, with the current bonuses. or maybe swap the resist bonus for a target painter bonus so its tank isn't too good for its new awesome fire power.

Manu Hermanus
FaDoyToy
Posted - 2009.09.05 02:12:00 - [147]
 

Originally by: Seishi Maru
Originally by: MalVortex


Likewise, I see no compelling reason for the Navy Apoc to keep its 7.5% optimal bonus. For the role it serves, that bonus is simply mediocre. Buff it or change it.



HELL NO!!!! The range bonus is AWESOME! Its the main reason why The navy apoc is one of the best if not the best mission runner ship! I improved my mission income per hour by 17% from switching from abaddon to navy apoc!

Do not touch the PERFECT APOCALYPSE!


I strongly STRONGLY disagree. the range bonus on the navy poc is almost worthless. the only way you can get me to touch one is to give it to me for free, and then I am just going to turn around and sell it for isk. I'll take the abaddon over the navy apoc any day. and the nightmare/paladin over the abaddon ugh

Vylth
Posted - 2009.09.05 02:21:00 - [148]
 

Originally by: Faith d'Amarr

As yet another lover of the Dominix for mission purposes, I cannot help but think:


Ah, finally a solution to the "droneboat advancement stops at a T1 tier 1 battleship".

Now it'll be "droneboat advancement stops at the navy version of a T1 tier 1 battleship.....that can only be bought through the factional warfare loyalty store, not through the corporation loyalty stores that sells T1 tier 2 navy battleships. Up yours, mission runners - no Navy Dominix for you unless you buy one on contract for money; God forbid that we actually sell you useful navy ships for missioning to buy with the currency of loyalty points gained through missions. We made that mistake with the Raven Naval Issue, and we sure don't want to repeat it".


Now, I doubt that that has been any part of the reasoning - the reasoning probably running more along the lines of "let's try to make FW more interesting with unique rewards", but it does seem a rather silly way of doing so.


And not only will it be a pain in the butt to get, it does the same DPS as a 50m vanilla domi!

Manu Hermanus
FaDoyToy
Posted - 2009.09.05 02:36:00 - [149]
 

Originally by: NightmareX

2. I have seriously ****d a Raven pilot with 55+ mill SP in total and 10+ mill SP in missiles where he have maxed most of his Torpedo skills in my normal t2 fitted close range Tempest. He didn't even take my armor longer down than 80%Laughing. And no, he's not a mission runner or a carebear.

And no, those who says solo or small gangs are dead are really really wrong, so the Tempest is still good there.

Raven's and Amarr BS'es are the easiest targets to fight in my Tempest. Those ships dies to easy to my Tempest.



I'm a damn near maxed raven pilot and would be happy to give it a go on the test server, could even bring down my cnr and give that a go too assuming the changes are up on the test server now.

and zomg want navy geddon!

Xano Mora
Monks of War
DarkSide.
Posted - 2009.09.05 03:25:00 - [150]
 

mmm... Navy Geddon!! it's a greatest dream of all amarr - geddon wit 4 meds :)) Thx!!!


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