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Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2009.10.01 13:25:00 - [841]
 

Originally by: Sebroth
I like the idea of making the tempest hull armor tankers. Why?
This is why:

Maelstrom Sheild + Turret weapon platform
Tempest Armor + Turret
Typhoon Armor + 'hybrid'

If the tempest hull would be more of a shield tanker you get:

Maelstrom Shield + Turret weapon platform
Tempest Shield + Turret
Typhoon Armor + 'hybrid'



Except seen in the context of those who wish to cross train...

Maelstrom Sheild + Turret weapon platform
Tempest Armor + Turret
Typhoon Armor + 'hybrid'

Apoc Armor + Turret
Geddon Armor + Turret
Abaddon Armor + Turret

Domi Armor + 'hybrid'
Megathron Armor + Turret
Hyperion Armor + Turret

Scorp Shield + Missiles
Raven Shield + Missiles
Rokh Shield + Turret

There are currently twice as many armour tankers at battleship level. I believe that the sheer number of ships competing in the same niche is the reason why the Tempest loses out even though it is kinda different to it's racial peers.

Quote:
I do agree that the game have to many ships focused on armor tanking but I dont think 2/3 of the minmatar BSs should be shield tankers just to balance it out. Specially not when the 3rd BS and only alternative is the most skill intensive (sub capital) ship in game.
The typhoon more than makes up for it now after the 5/5 slot assignment. And either way, many pilots would agree that shield tanking provides better synergy with minmatar's speed and agility, due to plates adding mass and rigs reducing speed.

Quote:
The few that have more sp in shield will have the maelstom at BS level. Im not 100% sure but I do have a feeling most minmatar pilots first go projectile + amor then they add shield and last they add missiles (and drones mix in it all ofc). Just like I did.
If they fly t2 ships, it's most likely they would have much greater skill points in shields, so I disagree.

Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
Posted - 2009.10.01 17:52:00 - [842]
 

scorp is a shield tanker...? Shocked

Ulstan
Posted - 2009.10.01 18:39:00 - [843]
 

Edited by: Ulstan on 01/10/2009 18:39:50
I'd be happy if 100% of minmatar BS were primarly shield tankers (with possibly the option to go armor tank). The game has way more than enough armor -turret boats already. Dominix, Megathron, Hyperion, Armageddon, Apocalypse, Abaddon, and Typhoon (If using the new 5 turret slots). We don't need another one.

I think having roughly half the BS in the game shield tank and half armor tank is better than having basically everyone armor tank. The more shield tanking BS there are, the better a shield tanking BS fits into the gang. (Or would if you could actually use RR shield reps)

Moreover, minmatar BS are supposed to be slightly more agile and fast than other races BC. This goes out the window if you are slapping plates and trimarks on everything.

Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2009.10.01 19:34:00 - [844]
 

Originally by: Roemy Schneider
scorp is a shield tanker...? Shocked
I see what you did there Laughing

ZigZag Joe
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas.
Posted - 2009.10.02 06:02:00 - [845]
 

Edited by: ZigZag Joe on 03/10/2009 01:17:55
give tempest fleet issue its med back, and the 7th turret slot. (don't need the low if you're shield tanking, not so much anyways...)

that's all.

AccesiViale
The Artful Dodgers
Posted - 2009.10.02 13:52:00 - [846]
 

Originally by: Manique
Originally by: Cordo Draken
Originally by: CCP Ytterbium
II. Navy Tier 2 Battleships:
General: all navy battleship shield recharge time has been increased to 3390s.



0.0 Ah, take away one of the main strengths of the Caldari. With all the Nuets out there, this makes perfect sense to surplunge the CNR completely! That kills that tank.

As with everyone else here I think, We enjoy the added goodies you guys at CCP develop for us, but seriously, it seems like not everything is thought out thoroughly. Many would argue favorites in the race category. Please don't make Caldari and Minmatar the red-headed step children you just bash around with nerf fury. It really kinda kills it for that half of the universe, and with all the posts to back, seems very obvious. Shocked


As a caldari player I have to agree with this. At least give the navy raven some defence against neuts/nos.


I'm glad to see that a few people other than me find this change to 3390 absurd in the case of the CNR. I seriously doubt they will change it though as it such an obscure and illogical/unwarranted change.

I mean if the designers seriously overlooked the fact when they created the faction BS that all the shield times are the same as the standard variant then they are fail. When creating a new ship from an already existing hull you have what...15 values to tweak? Nobody years ago went "Hmm maybe because we gave them more shield we should increase the time to charge some."

As they obviously didn't think it was important enough to change then...its certainly not now. Do it right the first time or not at all.

Seriously Bored
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.10.02 21:45:00 - [847]
 

Originally by: AccesiViale

As they obviously didn't think it was important enough to change then...its certainly not now. Do it right the first time or not at all.


As much as I think nerfing Passive Shield Tanking on faction BSs is an unrequested/unneeded changed...

If CCP has your philosophy, Projectiles would be staying broke forever and we'd all still be in nano ships. Shocked

Typhado3
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.10.03 00:05:00 - [848]
 

Originally by: CCP Ytterbium
Further changes.

Typhoon:

• Slot layout: received an additional launcher slot and turret slot (for a total of 5/5 turrets/launchers, 8/4/7)

Tempest:

• Hitpoints: armor and shield values swapped (now has 6954 armor and 6211 shields)

Typhoon Fleet Issue:

• Slot layout: received an additional launcher slot and turret slot (for a total of 5/5 turrets/launchers, 8/4/8)

Tempest Fleet Issue:

• Slot layout: 7th turret slot removed for a 7th low-slot (for a total of 6/4 turrets/launchers, 8/5/7)
• Hitpoints: armor and shield values swapped (now has 10431 armor and 9316 shields)


I love you

me and my typhoon bpo really do love you right now.

Vyktrr
Amarr
ANZAC ALLIANCE
IT Alliance
Posted - 2009.10.03 02:47:00 - [849]
 

Tbh, Give the Phoon 8/8 Turrets/Launchers, with 8 lows, and bonuses to armour resistance and reduction in MWD cap reduction.

That way we could make it what we want, within the acceptable restrictions of the grid and cpu. Awesome.

I say make the Pest full shield tanker with 7 mids, 4 lows, and the extra turret!

We need more shield/guns.

Navy Mega: Give it a 15% large Hybrid Optimal per level in addition to current bonuses.


Schmell
Russian Thunder Squad
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2009.10.03 05:58:00 - [850]
 

Edited by: Schmell on 03/10/2009 05:58:59
Originally by: Vyktrr
Tbh, Give the Phoon 8/8 Turrets/Launchers, with 8 lows, and bonuses to armour resistance and reduction in MWD cap reduction.

That way we could make it what we want, within the acceptable restrictions of the grid and cpu. Awesome.

I say make the Pest full shield tanker with 7 mids, 4 lows, and the extra turret!

We need more shield/guns.

Navy Mega: Give it a 15% large Hybrid Optimal per level in addition to current bonuses.




I figured out: you hate minmatar and gallente (upd: you are an amarr, of course you hate)

Mwd cap bonus is the most useless bonus in game (just look at deimos lol).
Tempest proposal...oh, god no
Blaster optimal bonus for ship, that uses mostly blasters...wow


===============

For typhoon i`d like to have missile+drone damage bonus, but it just a wet dream Laughing

Ecky X
SniggWaffe
FREE KARTTOON NOW
Posted - 2009.10.03 19:00:00 - [851]
 

I support Typhoon changes, there is now NO reason to fit crappy large projectiles.


I would rather the Tempest be a shield tanker. As stated, we have plenty of armor tanking battleships. An 8/7/4 Pest would be amazing for small-gang work (but probably slightly worse for sniping), or even 8/6/5, though we already have a bunch of those. 8/5/6 is, tbh, a pretty poor slot layout for most everything.

Potrero
Gallente
Federal Defence Union
Posted - 2009.10.04 05:00:00 - [852]
 

Originally by: Ecky X
I support Typhoon changes, there is now NO reason to fit crappy large projectiles.
Maybe.

But now you can mount 5x 1400mm artillery on it and take it into fleet combat. Cheaper than a Tempest and the drone bay gives it more options for defending itself up close.

Juliette DuBois
Posted - 2009.10.04 11:51:00 - [853]
 

Edited by: Juliette DuBois on 04/10/2009 12:03:46
Originally by: Potrero
Originally by: Ecky X
I support Typhoon changes, there is now NO reason to fit crappy large projectiles.
Maybe.

But now you can mount 5x 1400mm artillery on it and take it into fleet combat. Cheaper than a Tempest and the drone bay gives it more options for defending itself up close.


No way, it΄s gonna be much worse for sniping than even Tempest is currently. You only have 5 guns with one damage bonus... You won΄t break 250 dps with tremor. Laughing

Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2009.10.04 12:16:00 - [854]
 

Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 04/10/2009 12:16:18
Originally by: Ecky X
I support Typhoon changes, there is now NO reason to fit crappy large projectiles.


I would rather the Tempest be a shield tanker. As stated, we have plenty of armor tanking battleships. An 8/7/4 Pest would be amazing for small-gang work (but probably slightly worse for sniping), or even 8/6/5, though we already have a bunch of those. 8/5/6 is, tbh, a pretty poor slot layout for most everything.
/me wonders whether the game design/Balance department are listening...

Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2009.10.04 13:39:00 - [855]
 

The current iteration of navy scorpion is a lot more reasonable than first one. While I personaly would not pick it over navy raven I guess it might be attractive to some people. Same people who currently really love to overtank their navy ravens. It's basically normal raven with really sick tank altho in that regard I think it's atm just crappy Golem with low initial skill re****ents so it has some uses for beginning players - assuming they can afford it. As it has to sacrifice Ravens range bonus to get it's shield resitance bonus it will not be attractive torpedo platform ofc.

In short - it's better now but still lacking the 'bling' to really make it attractive - at least it's no longer total catastrophe it was at first. Outclassed by Golem with price ending in approx same ballpark considering it will be exlucive to FW LP store. If I would need to pick something for PvP I would bring Golem over Navy Scorpion regardless of Golem crappy sensors.

Olga Chukarin
Posted - 2009.10.04 17:52:00 - [856]
 

Edited by: Olga Chukarin on 04/10/2009 17:55:52
Edited by: Olga Chukarin on 04/10/2009 17:55:13
(edit, *shield* recharge not cap!)

Why such a nerf to the fleet tempest? Especially passive shield fleet tempests (probably the only thing the fleet tempest is better at than the other 3 navy bs's)

Changes been made:

Lose 1 midslot
Gain 1 lowslot
Lose 50% shield recharge

So before, a regular T2 fitted passive fleet tempest (2 T2 invs, 4 LSE II's, 3 gyro 2's or SPR 2's depending on how much you want to tank, 3 SPR 2's, 3 purger rigs) could get 900-odd dps tank with 6 sprs, or 400 odd dps tank with 3 sprs and 3 gyros. Now, the change from 6/6 to 7/5 only means you have to swap a LSE for a SPR, but the 50% recharge nerf means you have to sacrifice all your gyros to achive the same amount of tank. And the +4 increace in EMP damage does not make up for the DPS loss of not having a rack of gyros fitted.

Also, the updated Typhoon (the regular one, not the fleet issue) fitted for passive shield actually outperforms the fleet tempest now, for the same amount of tank! And that is with T1 cruise launchers, T1 ogres, and NOTHING in the 3 other highslots!

Probably the worst thing about it is the difference between the regular 'pest and the fleet one now, considering you are spending an extra 275 mill for the fleet ship

Before, the fleet 'pest had 50% better shield recharge and an extra mid over the regular one, making its passive tank much better

Now, presumably the idea is to restrict you to armour tanks, and all you get for that is 1 extra lowslot over a regular tempest! Which brings the ship equal to the standard battleships of the gallante/amaar race that have 8 lowslots and can use the extra low to fit a 1600 which brings the armour HP equal to the fleet tempest!

If the destruction of the passive tanked fleet tempest is supposed to make fleet tempests pvp only (since thier only advantage now is the extra hull HP) then do the same to CNRs... give them a massive nerf to active shield tanks...

The 50% recharge nerf is completely unneccecery, if you want to get rid of something from fleet tempests to give them extra slots, ditch those pointless 4 missile slots...

kessah
Blood Blind
Posted - 2009.10.04 19:40:00 - [857]
 

Originally by: CCP Ytterbium
Further changes.

Typhoon:

• Slot layout: received an additional launcher slot and turret slot (for a total of 5/5 turrets/launchers, 8/4/7)

Tempest:

• Hitpoints: armor and shield values swapped (now has 6954 armor and 6211 shields)

Typhoon Fleet Issue:

• Slot layout: received an additional launcher slot and turret slot (for a total of 5/5 turrets/launchers, 8/4/8)

Tempest Fleet Issue:

• Slot layout: 7th turret slot removed for a 7th low-slot (for a total of 6/4 turrets/launchers, 8/5/7)
• Hitpoints: armor and shield values swapped (now has 10431 armor and 9316 shields)


Id like to see the Phoons rof bonus to large projectiles replaced with a 10% less factor for sig on torpedos skill or something to that effect tested. It would be nice to have a another dedicated 2nd missle orientated battleship.

a single dmg bonused armour tanked ship for projectiles just makes them so meh.

Siroh
Posted - 2009.10.05 01:22:00 - [858]
 

Can we just take caldari and missiles out of the game now and ban all the caldari accounts. Once again let's put a nerf on a caldari ship you all ready made the warheads explode with yellow dandilons so jsut remoce caldari out of the game. Jsut say gallante nuked them or the sleepers came out the worm holes and attacked good job on the shield recharge nerf on the cnr.

Ecillium
Posted - 2009.10.05 03:10:00 - [859]
 

TBH huge meh.. For ships that are only rarely going to see the light of day as it is due to their massive cost, for the most part they dont do anything new.. domi is still a domi etc etc cant really see the point in spending the time to farm FW LP for them when in the same time you could do enough L4's to buy a couple of capitals ugh

HeliosGal
Caldari
Posted - 2009.10.05 04:22:00 - [860]
 

you just get a alt to run the milita missions or u use contracts to exchange regular faction ship offers ie navy mega for navy dominix.

Alsyth
Night Warder
Posted - 2009.10.05 11:12:00 - [861]
 

Edited by: Alsyth on 05/10/2009 11:19:07
Edited by: Alsyth on 05/10/2009 11:18:24
Edited by: Alsyth on 05/10/2009 11:16:53
Edited by: Alsyth on 05/10/2009 11:13:53
Apart from the 5/5 turrets/lauchers of Typhoon, I really don't like those changes on Matar ships.

I want to shield tank ALL my Matar BSs...

Getting rid of shield tankers is not going to improve the game. Right now fleet battle force to armor tank, and this is the problem, not the fact that Matar BSs are better at shield tanking.

Tempest can already either shield or armor tank, and it has 2 utility high slots the Mael doesn't have. Don't say that a shield Pest is a bad Mael, it's not true.

Please CCP, realize that the problem is CPU need of shield transfers. Instead of making 8 out of the 12 BSs in the game ONLY good at armor tanking at a fleet level, when only two of them has utility high slots (Raven/Scorpion). Because then it will be too late, shield tanking in fleet will never survive this :/

I play Matar, Matar are not good in fleets now.
But I don't want an armor-tanked BS to be good in fleets like they are now, I want shield-tanking fleets to be made effective.

Edit : And killing shield recharge rate... Which is already poor compared to ANY BC or Command ship... It's good only in PVE, and not overpowered in any way. Why nerf it ?

Borg Shopper
Gallente
Posted - 2009.10.05 14:43:00 - [862]
 

Edited by: Borg Shopper on 05/10/2009 15:00:14
Edited by: Borg Shopper on 05/10/2009 14:58:48
PLEASE make navy domi BLACK/SILVER as current navythron!!!! TOUCH my navythron and it will immediatly be on contracts... Evil or Very Mad BEST looking ship in Gal lineup, ruined by camo!!! While at it, black Navy vex, Exec, and Diemost (like vigi) would rock!Cool

EDIT: The Navy Comet isn't camo, Shocked try following that scheme (I like the siren on top too, cheesy but I likesRazz, Eris has a light as well..)
Ninja edit: Spraying black = easy change!

Psyleste
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.10.05 14:56:00 - [863]
 

Originally by: Borg Shopper
TOUCH my navythron and it will immediatly be on contracts...


WTB new best looking ship in the game cheap.

Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2009.10.06 01:57:00 - [864]
 

Kind of late to this party, but I just took a look at the new Rattlesnake, Gila and Worm on Sisi. If that isn't overkill and pissing in the face of the concept of balance, then I don't know what is. I'm really glad that I finally started cross training Caldari, and Gallente will be next up.

Kallana Wren
Posted - 2009.10.06 02:56:00 - [865]
 

I really like the changes to the Phoon, even with the split bonuses. Keep the RoF bonus on projectile, should make it a nice close range RR brawler. Not in favor of turning it into a Minmatar Raven lite.

Glad to see some love for an awesome ship.

Shar'ri Atal
Minmatar
Asa Njord Research
Posted - 2009.10.06 11:51:00 - [866]
 

What is the new camo texture on the new faction ships all about?

Do CCP think we will want to hide them in a forest?

It looks bad and it makes no sense. Make them black. The current Dramiel textures are a good example of this style.

DeathBS
Posted - 2009.10.07 00:19:00 - [867]
 

I think that the Fleet Tempest should be 8/7/4, or even 8/6/5 again with the 7th turret and swap the armor/shields back.

A 8/6/5 Tempest would be good too, with armor/shield swapped back.

Sol ExAstris
Posted - 2009.10.07 00:42:00 - [868]
 

curses to the whiners who wanted the Fleet Issue Tempest's spare med/low slots back and summarily made it lose its 7th turret mount. That was the most promising change/addition I'd seen on the whole list.

*sigh*

but overall the changes/additions look solid.

Obsidian Hawk
RONA Corporation
RONA Directorate
Posted - 2009.10.07 02:52:00 - [869]
 

Fleet pest rules with that 8/5/7 but i woudl like to see the 7th gun slot come back.


As for my other thoughts, do not make it a shield tanker, with the changes to tracking computers coming ie, included fall off bonus, those mids will best be used to make the arts hurt as much as possible and not having it be a tank.

As for my other thoughts, the 5% to damaage / rof is meh, it shoudl be 7.5% and have a 5% fall off bonus or a 5% tracking bonus.

Roland Thorne
Minmatar
Jian Products Engineering Group
Posted - 2009.10.07 07:02:00 - [870]
 

Originally by: Shar'ri Atal
What is the new camo texture on the new faction ships all about?

Do CCP think we will want to hide them in a forest?


hehe


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