open All Channels
seplocked Ships and Modules
blankseplocked Vengeance, retribution cap issues
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Author Topic

Zarks
Corente Empire
Posted - 2004.10.19 13:05:00 - [1]
 

I wonder why these ships got a 225s recharge time.
Both the Harpy and the Enyo got a recharge time of 150s and base cap of 275.
Vengeance got a base cap of 300 and retribution 350.
This means the amarr ships got a 50% longer recharge time but only 9% and 27% more total cap.

Vengeance got a 10% cap recharge bonus per skill level which is good but the fact that it is worse from the start only makes this slightly better then for example the enyo after the skills are weighed in.

Anyone got a nice explanation in a balance point of view for me? especially since the amarr ships should be cap monsters?



Toran Mehtar
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2004.10.19 13:28:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: Zarks
Anyone got a nice explanation in a balance point of view for me? especially since the amarr ships should be cap monsters?




Nope. There is no explanation.

Shimatu
Caldari
Infinite Improbability Inc
Dusk and Dawn
Posted - 2004.10.19 13:34:00 - [3]
 

why should amarrian ships be cap monsters? theyre weapons take less cap (once bonuses are factored in) and armour tanking uses less cap than shield tanking.

or do you mean by RP reasons they should be? in which case, why arnt caldari ships light and fast, with high-tech stuff? why arnt minmater ships really fast with next to no armour/structure but low sig and decent shields? why arnt gallente... i dunno, whatever they should be :P

incidently, its worth noting that in early beta (think it was early, i wasent there but this is what i'm told) amarrian ships were gods. an apocalypse could easily take down any other BS, and it would take at least 2 BSes to bring down an apoc. this was reflected in cost, so it was thought to be fair... then they realised that this meant everyone would fly apocs. so they changed it.
basically, just because it makes sense in RP doesnt mean that it makes sense for the game.

Zarks
Corente Empire
Posted - 2004.10.19 13:38:00 - [4]
 

It´s not a RP thingy, I wonder from a balance point of view. Why shouldn´t the amarr ships have the same recharge time as the other races?

Shimatu
Caldari
Infinite Improbability Inc
Dusk and Dawn
Posted - 2004.10.19 13:54:00 - [5]
 

like i said, theyre weapons and tanking take less cap than the other races.

Toran Mehtar
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2004.10.19 14:00:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Shimatu
like i said, theyre weapons and tanking take less cap than the other races.


In that case I ask that CCP changes the cap recharge to compare with other races then replaces the cap use bonus for a damage or tracking bonus, maybe even a boost to armour repairing. By your argument that would make things fair.

Tas Devil
JUDGE DREAD Inc.
Forces of Freedom
Posted - 2004.10.19 14:07:00 - [7]
 

My 2 cents...

And I know its a negative contribution ... but unfortunatly only negative thoughts come to mind when thinking of assault ships...Wink

The assault ships have not been thought through properly by CCP or balanced or tested or thought through in relation to the rest of the eve fleet...its quick cheap content added for the sake of adding content...

Most if not all of them are useless for PVP Crying or Very sad some of their stats make no sense at all and they lack a definite advantage which makes then usefull in a PVP role...

The reply that they come in handy for rat hunting is silly...in my opinion ...I'd much rather be in a cruiser that I can insure for its real value to hunt rats then a 40M super frigate that insures for 3M...

I'm open to criticism of this view...but the fact you don't see anyone in them doing any PVP might explain something .... (the Wolf seems to be an exception of this no PVP role theory of mine)

Meridius
Destructive Influence
IT Alliance
Posted - 2004.10.19 14:25:00 - [8]
 

It's stupid.

Look at the battleships, the apoc has more cap then the other tier 2 bs and yet they all have the same cap recharge time.

Look at the cruisers though. The maller has 100 more cap then the thorax but pays for that with a 37 second higher recharge time.

What is the point of giving something more cap and then taxing it with a higher recharge? It's so pointless and just takes away something that could be special. You might as well just give them all the same amount of cap and then have the same recharge time. The way it is now it's like were being lied to.

Confused

fras
Amarr
Posted - 2004.10.19 14:34:00 - [9]
 

I've found that all of the assault frigates are used surprisingly frequently in pvp. I agree with you that a cruiser is a more sensible option - but then ppl have isk to burn.

As for the cap issue, I dunno - it's not to do with the non linear recharge curve is it?

tenp1
Posted - 2004.10.19 14:38:00 - [10]
 

Their weapons don't use less cap than other races, if they do then I must be using magic tech 10 projectiles that use fairy dust instead of capRolling Eyes

The only reason I can see is that the larger base cap and lower recharge gives the same average recharge rate as lower cap and higher recharge. This is proved in a way when I tank the retribution.

High - 4xMedium Pulse II
Mid - Small Battery II
Low - Small Armour Repairer II, True sanshas Energised thermal mebrane, 2xCap relays and Heat sink II

This all runs fine and can run the repairer and guns constant. However if I replace the Small battery II with a cap recharger II, even though I have a higher recharge rate, I cannot run the above setup constant.

This is the only reason I can see, tho chances are I'm wrong and it's more subtle than that.

Meridius
Destructive Influence
IT Alliance
Posted - 2004.10.19 15:17:00 - [11]
 

Rolling Eyes
Originally by: Shimatu
why should amarrian ships be cap monsters? theyre weapons take less cap (once bonuses are factored in)



Err.

Minmatar use next to no cap, caldari use no cap.

With controlled burst V

125mm II's use 1.83 cap
Medium Pulse II's use 1.11 cap

So we use an astonishing 0.72 less cap per shot with our uber bonus while an enyo gets 25% damage.

Hmm, 0.72 less cap use or 25% damage, i wonder which one is better.

Also, don't forget, the enyo gets a 5% tracking per level.

Confused



Gaiam
Gallente
Supernova Security Systems
Posted - 2004.10.19 15:49:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Zarks


Anyone got a nice explanation in a balance point of view for me? especially since the amarr ships should be cap monsters?



yah ill explain to you, you guys are all looking for something to complain about so youll just argue.

enyos 275 cap with 150 recharge is the same cap profile as retributions 350 cap at 225 seconds recharge time. when you factor in that a 5% bonus to retribution cap size and charge is more of a bonus than to enyo, then youll see retribution has the second best cap of all assaults.

want to take a guess as to what assault has better cap than retribution?

thats right! vengeance. very good.

Meridius
Destructive Influence
IT Alliance
Posted - 2004.10.19 16:12:00 - [13]
 

Take a look at heavy assaults, they all have the same cap recharge yet amarr ships have more cap.

Looks like they get it right, sometimes.

Flammius
Amarr
Amarr Electronics
Posted - 2004.10.20 17:20:00 - [14]
 

Quote:
Anyone got a nice explanation in a balance point of view for me? especially since the amarr ships should be cap monsters?


No, no idea why CCP decided to gimp these ships - I thought excessive nerfing was reserverd for minmatar ships. One medslot... good idea... :(

The only aussault frigs worth getting IMO are the Gallente and Caldari ones.

Shintoko Akahoshi
Risen Angels
Posted - 2004.10.20 20:15:00 - [15]
 

The cap on Amarr assault frigates does seem kinda bugged, though.

Compare the Vengeance to the Punisher. According to the Vengeances description, it should be getting twice the cap recharge bonus of the Punisher, yet I get much better cap recharge time in a Punisher than I do in a Vengeance.

Calyn
Amarr
Posted - 2004.10.20 22:53:00 - [16]
 

CCP messed up the assualt ships badly, and need to recognize that fact. The Retribution has a worse cap recharge than it's basic counterpart, and less firepower that the Crusader (an Interceptor!!!!!). They can fix it easily enough by giving it the same recharge time as the Enyo & co, and change the cap use bonus to a damage bonus for frig level V, and instead add tracking as an assault ship bonus (removing small energy weapon cap use bonus).

Shevar
Minmatar
Target Practice incorporated
Posted - 2004.10.21 02:32:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Calyn
CCP messed up the assualt ships badly, and need to recognize that fact. The Retribution has a worse cap recharge than it's basic counterpart, and less firepower that the Crusader (an Interceptor!!!!!). They can fix it easily enough by giving it the same recharge time as the Enyo & co, and change the cap use bonus to a damage bonus for frig level V, and instead add tracking as an assault ship bonus (removing small energy weapon cap use bonus).


Enyo does the same ammount of dmg as a taranis, the wolf only does equal damage as the claw, so only the caldari ones do more dmg but that is because they are the only turret boats they have.

Also cap recharge isn't linear basicly meaning if you have a higher cap with a higher recharge rate (ie 100 cap 10s recharge versus 50cap 4s recharge) you will recharge more cap/second.

I do agree the retribution cant really compare to the enyo or harpy though... But it's atletast on par with the wolf.

Istvaan Shogaatsu
Caldari
Guiding Hand Social Club
Posted - 2004.10.21 06:17:00 - [18]
 

Quote:
Enyo does the same ammount of dmg as a taranis, the wolf only does equal damage as the claw, so only the caldari ones do more dmg but that is because they are the only turret boats they have.


Hm. Incorrect. Too sleepy to explain why and how, but trust me.


 

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only