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blankseplocked Presence to Level 5 is (currently) not worth training...
 
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Dretzle Omega
Caldari
Global Economy Experts
Posted - 2009.09.04 19:40:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Ancharra Jaram
*snip*
In other words, there is no point arguing about Presence V, because every player has different goals and preferences, just as there is no point in arguing whether McDonald's is superior to Burger King.


Exactly!

....

Except that McDonald's is superior to Burger King. Laughing

DarthCaboose
Posted - 2009.09.05 00:16:00 - [62]
 

Edited by: DarthCaboose on 05/09/2009 00:18:29
I've been reading through and I'm quite happy at the... ummm... "intensity" of the debate that's been going on. However, I do have to say that this post is primarily intended for people who are considering what they want to do with their Advanced Learning skills. Hell, not even ALL of them, just Presence.

It's natural to want to defend your own decisions if you've already executed them. That's human nature. However, it is quite unfavorable for the newer players who still face this dilemma without some sense of honesty from the people who're struggling with this problem right now.

If anything, I have tried to be extremely impartial with my testing and tried to show the results in a way that would easily showcase the differences for JUST PRESENCE V. I did this by showing a skill plan with all skills having an attribute in Charisma and showing the time results with and without Presence V.

Granted, there was time saved to the tune of 18 or so days (Heck, it might even be more than that). However, I also mentioned that ALL SKILLS with an attribute in Charisma was added and I also noted that many of these skills might not be picked up by players to level 5; simply because they might be relying on other players for said skills. As such, the conclusion I drew was that "No, Presence V might not be worth training if you don't plan on taking many of the Charisma-based skills to Level 5".

I understand many people find their own egos at stake here. Hell, if I were one such person who did want to become a super awesome Squad Leader / Trader / Mission Runner / Corp Manager, then please extol the wonderful virtues of Presence V! But I do hope that the conclusion I drew is considered to be reasonable and a possible guideline for the newer players who want to know what the benefits and disadvantages of training this skill are.

Originally by: Ancharra Jaram
Dear Pottsey,

I am afraid you are missing the point of Opportunity Cost.

Every action you take, both in and out of game, has an opportunity cost associated with it. It is an individual decision which way to spend money, isk, and time, and the relative worth of the results will vary according to each person's preferences and goals. One opportunity cost of eating at McDonald's is that I can't eat at Burger King at the same time, and vice versa. There is no right or wrong decision here, only personal preference, but the opportunity cost still exists.

Those opposing you on this thread are correct, in that they do not think that Presence V is worthwhile at this point in time. This is a decision they have made based on their own preferences, and the numbers do bear that out. They value the ability to "spend" the SP they would have used to train Presence V on training what they perceive to be more useful skills. There is nothing wrong with that viewpoint.

On the other hand, you are also correct, because you have set a different value upon the skill. You believe that the ability to train at your highest potential in every case is more important than the SP spent on learning Presence V. This is also a correct decision, for you and other players, and you have proved that it can be a good decision with your Orca example.

I think most of the player base will agree that some Learning skills are useful. But how far to take them is a preference based on perception of their usefulness to their immediate and future goals. For some, 4/3 is enough, for some 5/4, and some, like you, believe that maximum learning is worthwhile. There is no right or wrong answer here, because of opportunity cost. In other words, there is no point arguing about Presence V, because every player has different goals and preferences, just as there is no point in arguing whether McDonald's is superior to Burger King.


An excellent summary. Some value things more than others. However, I did want to share my findings with the rest of the Eve community. What they take away from my advice is up to them.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2009.09.05 07:17:00 - [63]
 

DarthCaboose said "If anything, I have tried to be extremely impartial with my testing and tried to show the results in a way that would easily showcase the differences for JUST PRESENCE V."
The problem with the so called impartial testing and post was it only showed presence V in the worst light. You didn't make any mention of all the times Presence V can be a massive benefit. That is misleading as advice goes. Your testing to be fair should have shown Presence V in both the worst case and best case. Then people can make their own mind up if it's worth getting or not. Telling people when Presence V is of little use and never telling them when it is of massive use is bad advice. I can see you meant the best but I just cannot agree with the way you did it as you failed to show the real advantages and differences for just presence V.



DarthCaboose said " But I do hope that the conclusion I drew is considered to be reasonable and a possible guideline for the newer players who want to know what the benefits and disadvantages of training this skill are."
I don't think it's reasonable as I showed if I and many others followed your advice we would by far worse off at our current ingame roles. Not just a small amount but a large amount worse off. If the advice makes us worse at our current in game role it's not reasonable advice.



DarthCaboose said " Hell, if I were one such person who did want to become a super awesome Squad Leader / Trader / Mission Runner / Corp Manager, then please extol the wonderful virtues of Presence V!"
As I showed I only had to do leadership for Presence V to give a massive 14day advantage. If I added Trader / Mission Runner / Corp Manager I would have ended months sooner. This is not about egos at stake. This is about giving the full advice to new players not half. New players are likly to change ingame roles over the first and second year of play.

Diefer
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.09.05 09:40:00 - [64]
 

It seems to me, that Pottsey is unable to get her point through, so I will make an attempt.

Lets say we have two complete newbies, A and B. Both are a bit carebearish, and decide to start with mining.

Along the way, A trains learning skills 5/5 except charisma 5/4, while B trains all 5/5. Half year later, A has trained Deep Core Mining L5, while B still hasn't.

However, at this point, both are bored to death with mining, and vow to never mine again. Instead, both start to look at PvP. Now, still being carebears at heart, they decide that fleet boosting is the thing, and proceed to train leadership skills.

From now on, every second, A will be further and further behind B. Even if they later on decide to do something else, B will still retain his lead. That is, as long as they are not returning to mining.

This, I think, is the Pottseys point. Changes in skill plan, that make your already trained skills obsolete, may give the advantage to one having adv. charisma L5. Furthermore, training even one cha skill can be enough to give this advantage.

Estel Arador
Posted - 2009.09.05 09:46:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Pottsey
Even with your smaller skillplan the above skillplan ends 12.9days sooner with Presence V. That means I can then spend 12.9 days on my T3 skillplan while I would still be training the first plan with Presence IV. Do you get how that is an advantage?

You read that wrong, IV finishes 12.9 days before V.

Originally by: Pottsey
I do understand. The problem is the other do not understand this is a game. Being better at what you want to do now is all that matters. Being more efficient at what you want to do in game now is what matters.

For players less than 3 years of age, you could've been better and more efficient now if you hadn't trained the advanced learning skills to V and instead trained something giving a direct benefit. As I said before, your idea would only apply to people who have nothing 'useful' to train for when they take their advanced skills to V and who after that suddenly decide they do have something to train for. In any other case they will be worse off with advanced V (until the standard way of payoff calculation kicks in).

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2009.09.05 10:35:00 - [66]
 

Estel Arador said "As I said before, your idea would only apply to people who have nothing 'useful' to train for when they take their advanced skills to V"
As I pointed out before that is wrong. If I am a new player and I had something useful to train but got a advanced skills to V or just Presence to V then later on I have a change of focus towards the Orca at first I would be worse off but once I had that change of focus I would be better off. The change of focus would mean I am better off and more efficient at my current new in game role due to advanced skills to V but worse off and less efficient at my now old game role. IV would just be 14days behind at the current role that matters.

Sure if you don't have a change of focus you are just worse off and you should have trained something useful instead of adv5's. But many people do have a change of focus. For example I am a new player who gets adv5 right at the start. One year into the game I meet some new friends; the friends get me interested in Stealth ships. adv5's let me train stealth ships based skills much faster than IV. I max out stealth ships over week before I would with IV. One and a half years into the game and my current ingame role is better with V then with IV.

See I you do not always need to have nothing usfull to train before you get a benefit from Presence V or adv5's. I hope you can see how in the above example I end up less efficient at my old role but more efficient and better off at my new role all before payoff has been hit.



Estel Arador said " You read that wrong, IV finishes 12.9 days before V."
That's impossible at least in the examples we are talking about. Both started training at the same time as both started the training path due to the Orca game event. We were talking about changing skill focus due to events and ending plans early due to V. If an event causes you to create a new skillplan you cannot possiblely start that skillplan before the event that caused you to change the skillplan. If something happens on the 5th of March to make me change skillplans. I cannot on the 1st of March start the new skillplan as I don't know what's going to happen on the 5th unless I have a magic crystal ball. So both V and IV start the new skillplan on the 5th of March and V finsihes 12.9days before IV. Things like this are the real advantage of learning skills. When something makes you change skillplans you can end the new skillplan much faster with V then IV.

Sure when you can start early with IV then IV ends the plan sooner. But often IV cannot start the plan early.




Estel Arador said " For players less than 3 years of age, you could've been better and more efficient now if you hadn't trained the advanced learning skills to V"
Not in the examples I gave. Advance learning V is more efficient and further along the skill path at the current ingame roles in well under 3 years. Take my alt, there is no realistic way whatsoever that IV could be more efficient at my ingame role and further along the skillplan then V at flying an Orca and T3.

I am not saying that adv5 and Presence V is always better or always worthwhile. Only that in many situations it is better. In many others it is not better.

A better real example. Just last week the corp I am in fall to bits. My new group of friends amour tank more than shield so I need to retrain armour gang assist and get an Amarr command ship. adv5's and Presence V let me change skill focus much faster and get those skills days if not weeks before IV. There is no way IV could start training early as it was the corp falling to bits that trigged a new skillplan.




Estel Arador said " In any other case they will be worse off with advanced V (until the standard way of payoff calculation kicks in)."
I proved that wrong by showing how you can be better at your current in game role. How can being better at your current ingame role be classed as worse off?

Estel Arador
Posted - 2009.09.05 11:16:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Pottsey
Estel Arador said " You read that wrong, IV finishes 12.9 days before V."
That's impossible at least in the examples we are talking about.

I said you read it wrong. Instead of rereading it you just start spewing out more sentences. Quantity does not equal quality. Reread post #54 by Xenofarion - 12.9 days is the wrong number; the correct number is listed in the same post.


Originally by: Pottsey
at first I would be worse off but once I had that change of focus I would be better off

I took your statement "Being better at what you want to do now is all that matters. Being more efficient at what you want to do in game now is what matters." to mean "Being better at what you want to do at any time is all that matters. Being more efficient at what you want to do in game at any time is what matters."; however you seem to apply it selectively to only those points after an unplanned and unexpected change. In your case you prefer being guaranteed to be worse off for a possibility of being slightly better off at some undetermined point in the future. That is exactly the flaw in your reasoning. The standard way of calculating payoff works in all cases, can be calculated exactly beforehand, and decisions can be made on accurate information. Your way is just a gut feeling.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2009.09.05 11:48:00 - [68]
 

Edited by: Pottsey on 05/09/2009 11:48:45
Estel Arador said "however you seem to apply it selectively to only those points after an unplanned and unexpected change. In your case you prefer being guaranteed to be worse off for a possibility of being slightly better off at some undetermined point in the future."
I only say you're better off after the unplanned and unexpected change as it's very clear that before that point you are worse off. What you say in that quote is mostly correct, I always said it was a gamble and that at first you are worse off. Well you say slightly better off I disagree with that. It's not slightly is can be massively better off.

Yes it is a possibility at an undetermined point in the future. But past experience has shown that although you don't know the point it's got a high chance of happening. Have you never had a massive change of role or skill focus before? Have you never massively redone your skill plan? I bet if you ask around a large amount of players have.

The reason I don't like you math payoff way is it misleading. You ignore the high chance of a skill focus change happening and that is just the point when adv5 skills give a large advantage. In my experience you're more likely to have a skill focus change then not. That means you're more likely to benefit from adv5 skills then not.
Out of time will re read psot 54 later.

The way I see it adv5 is it lets you adapt better to an unknown but high chance of happing point in the future. Ignoring this point and using payoff is a bad way of doing it as although we do not know if the point will happen it is not rare. Its happend to me about 5 times this year alone.

Estel Arador
Posted - 2009.09.05 12:44:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Pottsey
The way I see it adv5 is it lets you adapt better to an unknown but high chance of happing point in the future.

Nothing wrong with that, except that you conveniently forget that that adaptability takes an investment of weeks or months of training. Weeks or months which could've been spent training something which increases your efficiency at what you're doing at this moment. (That's why it say it's only worth it if you have nothing else useful to train.)

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2009.09.05 15:28:00 - [70]
 

Ok I see your point of view. I do agree that that you have to invest weeks or months when you could be doing something to boost efficiency at what you doing at the moment. But I don't agree it's only worth it if you have nothing else to train. Well it is sometimes only worth it when you have nothing else to train. It's a gamble.

For example I could have trained T2 siege missiles to level 5 instead of adv5 but then the missile Stealth bomber rebalance happened and those skill points turned 100% useless ( I don't have any other missiles ships) and I needed to retrain for Torps. But what happened is I trained adv5. The Stealth bomber rebalance hit and I can train torps faster without having wasted maxing out siege missiles which are now useless. One big gamble, it might not have paid off but it did. I find things like this happen a lot. So even though I had something useful to train I still ended up better off training adv5 instead of something that would have made me more efficiency at what I was doing at that moment.

Eve is always in flux and adv5 let you change to that flux which is why I like it. But it is all a big gamble off do you want more efficiency now or less efficiency now with a possibility of better efficiency later with for sure better efficiency after payoff.

Earl Shrive
Posted - 2009.09.07 02:18:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Pottsey

For example I could have trained T2 siege missiles to level 5 instead of adv5 but then the missile Stealth bomber rebalance happened and those skill points turned 100% useless ( I don't have any other missiles ships) and I needed to retrain for Torps. But what happened is I trained adv5. The Stealth bomber rebalance hit and I can train torps faster without having wasted maxing out siege missiles which are now useless. One big gamble, it might not have paid off but it did. I find things like this happen a lot. So even though I had something useful to train I still ended up better off training adv5 instead of something that would have made me more efficiency at what I was doing at that moment.


Torps come out of siege launchers.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2009.09.07 06:04:00 - [72]
 

Sorry I made a mistake. What I should have said is I had trained T2 Cruise Specialization but not even basic Torp skills. Then found myself in a situation where Cruise was 100% useless for me and I needed to retrain for torps Specialization.

DarthCaboose
Posted - 2009.09.07 18:19:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Pottsey
DarthCaboose said "If anything, I have tried to be extremely impartial with my testing and tried to show the results in a way that would easily showcase the differences for JUST PRESENCE V."
The problem with the so called impartial testing and post was it only showed presence V in the worst light. You didn't make any mention of all the times Presence V can be a massive benefit. That is misleading as advice goes. Your testing to be fair should have shown Presence V in both the worst case and best case. Then people can make their own mind up if it's worth getting or not. Telling people when Presence V is of little use and never telling them when it is of massive use is bad advice. I can see you meant the best but I just cannot agree with the way you did it as you failed to show the real advantages and differences for just presence V.



Good grief. Please tell me you understand the point of counterexamples!

Alright, let me run through this again for you Pottsey...

I ran a test which showed the absolute BEST CASE scenario for the case of training Presence V. That is, I included every single skill with Charisma in it and ran two plans; one with Presence V, one without Presence V. I'm sure you can see why this is a BEST CASE scenario; since the benefits of Presence V would be reflected on training skills with Charisma, it would make sense to measure the change in time with having or not having Presence V on the set of all skills influenced by the Charisma attribute.

Now, while I could take a subset of all these skills, that would represent a not-as-best (i.e. slightly worse) case scenario for Presence V. The ultimate worst case scenario would be taking Presence to V and then not even touching any skills with Charisma at all, ever (THAT would be a waste of time). I hope you can see why these two slightly-worse and worst case scenarios are redundant to the topic of this thread!

So, I had shown the ideal case where Presence V would be of a benefit to you was if you included every single skill in Eve. However, while I DID make the point that there were benefits to that (a good 2 weeks!, which is great!), I also made the point that this skill plan included every single skill in Eve which had a Charisma attribute to it. My reasoning was that, to the new player, very few would ever want to take corporation management / social / trade / leadership to their level 5 maximum. Now sure, if you were one of those people (like yourself, Pottsey) then Yes, Presence V is an amazing skill to train. However, for you to not see the logic in this argument shows that you really don't quite see the whole point of the opportunist cost in training learning skills up.

Originally by: Pottsey
DarthCaboose said " Hell, if I were one such person who did want to become a super awesome Squad Leader / Trader / Mission Runner / Corp Manager, then please extol the wonderful virtues of Presence V!"
As I showed I only had to do leadership for Presence V to give a massive 14day advantage. If I added Trader / Mission Runner / Corp Manager I would have ended months sooner. This is not about egos at stake. This is about giving the full advice to new players not half. New players are likly to change ingame roles over the first and second year of play.


I am sorry but those numbers don't match up. The ~14 days was representative of training ALL THOSE SKILLS to Level 5: Leadership / Trader / Mission Runner / Corp Management, not just Leadership. I encourage you to play around with EveMon and you'll see that I'm right.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2009.09.07 19:06:00 - [74]
 

Edited by: Pottsey on 07/09/2009 19:16:29
DarthCaboose said "Good grief. Please tell me you understand the point of counterexamples!"
Your counterexamples do not counter my examples they run alone side it. Your examples are not best case, you ignored best case. Just because you showed a worse example then mine it does not mean my examples are wrong. It just means your examples are not best case. Changing skill focus is best case for ending skillplans sooner with Presence V.

The problem is you are not looking at how people play the game. People change skill focus and it's when you change skill focus that Presence V is a massive advantage making your skill plans end much faster. Your advice makes no mention of this which is why I say it's not reasonable and not a good guideline for newer players. You dont mention all the times people benefit from Presence V without training all skills to do with it.

Good advice is to explain payoff like you did and also explain how skill focus changes could mean you can end your skillplan weeks sooner with Presence V just on half off leadership.

You are right about the ultimate worst case. I was wrong in saying yours is the worst.




DarthCaboose said " I'm sure you can see why this is a BEST CASE scenario;"
That is not best case. Best case if when you already have Presence V and cannot start the skillplan early with IV. That is when you end the skillplan much faster. This is something that happens to a lot of players.

For example a new player gets Presence V right from the start. 8 months later he decides to give Leadrship a go after joining a new corp who needs a command pilot. He ends the skillplan 12 to 24 days sooner than if he had Presence IV. That's just with leadership. Your advice makes no mention of large benefits like this.




DarthCaboose said "The ~14 days was representative of training ALL THOSE SKILLS to Level 5: Leadership / Trader / Mission Runner / Corp Management, not just Leadership. I encourage you to play around with EveMon and you'll see that I'm right."
Eve mon agrees with me. The numbers do match up if you read and understood my posts. I only needed to train half of leadership to end my plan 12days sooner with Presence V for the reasons I gave before. Do I really have to explain it all over again?

EDIT: I am not saying your numbers are wrong. I am saying often they do not apply like with skill focus changes.


Shaemell Buttleson
Posted - 2009.09.08 10:02:00 - [75]
 

Pottsey rocks!


Steel Wraith
Tristar Enterprises
Posted - 2009.09.08 10:36:00 - [76]
 

Edited by: Steel Wraith on 08/09/2009 10:37:11
Mathematically, if the OPs analysis is correct, you won't currently save any significant time by training Presence V. I think we can all agree there.

There is another argument for the training of Presence V, however, for those of us who have a tenuous hold on our sanity.

For example, in a few days I will begin training Presence to V. I plan to do it knowing full well I'm probably wasting some time but at least it will help quiet the voices in my head that tell me I must maximize my attributes. Laughing

Edit: Why do I always catch the typo right after posting?

Arresi
Amarr
GTE Limited
Posted - 2009.09.10 06:42:00 - [77]
 

None of the advanced learning skills are worth training to 5 imo...
Just train the basic skills to 5 (including learning) and leave the advanced ones at 4.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2009.09.10 09:57:00 - [78]
 

Steel Wraith said “Mathematically, if the OPs analysis is correct, you won't currently save any significant time by training Presence V. I think we can all agree there.”

If he was correct I would agree but he is not fully correct. Presence V I ended my skill plan around 24+days sooner over Presence IV which is a significant time and that was just on leadership.

I think we can all agree ending a skillplan 24days sooner is an significant amount of time.

Ellena Manim
Posted - 2009.09.10 11:19:00 - [79]
 

Edited by: Ellena Manim on 10/09/2009 11:21:26
I'm with Pottsey on that one. For 2 reasons:

1- If you don't know what to train for now, you would be rather go Advence Learning 5, even Presence. Cause later down the road, when you'll have picked your choice, it will go faster. However, if you have a plan, don`t deviate from it and it doesn`t involve charisma by all means, skip the skill

2- New expension. Couple of years back, CCP introduced exploration. The 1st people to explore and actually bring back good stuff (skill books) ended up pretty rich. Why? They were bascicly alone in their line of work, while the demand for their good was pretty high. Same goes with say t3 production, 1st ships were at an obsecene price. Soo let's say tomorow CCP launch a new expension involving charisma.. It can be Anything: New stock market, new combat system involving marines (taking over ship, pos and stations with those things that have been stuck in you hangar for age), planet side relation, WIS, interaction with DUST 412, anything really. the 1st few guys IN the market will make a killing. How they got in 1st? They had the highest value possible in Charisma. In that sence, having all adv at 5 and +5 (or +6 :p) plugged wil give you just a little edge to be the 1st, rewarding the extra training you put into that "useless skill"


DarthCaboose
Posted - 2009.09.11 08:19:00 - [80]
 

Edited by: DarthCaboose on 11/09/2009 09:04:31
Originally by: Pottsey
Edited by: Pottsey on 07/09/2009 19:16:29
DarthCaboose said "Good grief. Please tell me you understand the point of counterexamples!"
Your counterexamples do not counter my examples they run alone side it. Your examples are not best case, you ignored best case. Just because you showed a worse example then mine it does not mean my examples are wrong. It just means your examples are not best case. Changing skill focus is best case for ending skillplans sooner with Presence V.

The problem is you are not looking at how people play the game. People change skill focus and it's when you change skill focus that Presence V is a massive advantage making your skill plans end much faster. Your advice makes no mention of this which is why I say it's not reasonable and not a good guideline for newer players. You dont mention all the times people benefit from Presence V without training all skills to do with it.

Good advice is to explain payoff like you did and also explain how skill focus changes could mean you can end your skillplan weeks sooner with Presence V just on half off leadership.

You are right about the ultimate worst case. I was wrong in saying yours is the worst.




DarthCaboose said " I'm sure you can see why this is a BEST CASE scenario;"
That is not best case. Best case if when you already have Presence V and cannot start the skillplan early with IV. That is when you end the skillplan much faster. This is something that happens to a lot of players.

For example a new player gets Presence V right from the start. 8 months later he decides to give Leadrship a go after joining a new corp who needs a command pilot. He ends the skillplan 12 to 24 days sooner than if he had Presence IV. That's just with leadership. Your advice makes no mention of large benefits like this.




DarthCaboose said "The ~14 days was representative of training ALL THOSE SKILLS to Level 5: Leadership / Trader / Mission Runner / Corp Management, not just Leadership. I encourage you to play around with EveMon and you'll see that I'm right."
Eve mon agrees with me. The numbers do match up if you read and understood my posts. I only needed to train half of leadership to end my plan 12days sooner with Presence V for the reasons I gave before. Do I really have to explain it all over again?

EDIT: I am not saying your numbers are wrong. I am saying often they do not apply like with skill focus changes.




Hey Pottsey. I'm guessing you just like arguing for the sake of arguing, but let's expand my little experiment so that ALL variables are accounted for! In this way, I hope that, by including all these variables, you can see what I am talking about!

What I did was take EVERY SINGLE SKILL in Eve, set it to it's level 5 setting and run some analysis on that. The total time, assuming we do not perform any remaps, is 9938 days, 7 hours and 49 minutes (~27 years). This is the optimal skill plan that includes Presence V.

Now, throw away Presence V and the total skill training time comes out to 9955 days, 21 hours, 6 minutes and 45 seconds. This amounts to about 17 days and 13 hours of time saving. I admit that I may have missed a few charisma skills in the original test, but for the total to come out to +3 days considering EVERY SKILL IS TRAINED is quite pathetic. You are saving, with taking Presence to Level V, 17 days and 13 hours in total. Notice that this saving DOES TAKE INTO ACCOUNT the training time of Presence V.

Note that, with optimizing attributes, your savings for training Presence V (I'm not talking about in total, of course optimizing will save in total, I'm talking about the contribution of Presence V) will actually be even less felt. The reason why this is the case is because the marginal benefit of adding one additional skill point to your total attribute has less of an effect if that original attribute is at a higher value.

DarthCaboose
Posted - 2009.09.11 08:39:00 - [81]
 

Continued...

An extreme example of this concept is training up a learning skill to add one point to an attribute of original 1 vs 24. If you were training a skill that needed 100 skill points and it only relied on this one skill then the base training time would, without this learning skill, be 100 minutes for the first example and 100/24 = 4 minutes and 10 seconds for the second example. Training that learning skill would boost the attributes to 2 vs 25. This yields a 50% saving for the skill now, since it would take 50 minutes for the first example and 100/25 = 4 minutes for the second example. The MARGINAL BENEFIT is the key variable to look here, and optimization will not make this MARGINAL BENEFIT look better.

Pottsey, I have read through your posts and you do make sense when you talk about Pilot A and Pilot B wanting to change skill tracks to something with more Charisma-related skills in there. Of course, assuming the starting conditions you stated are correct, then it is perfect mathematical sense to assume that conclusion.

However, the key issue that you do not seem to be understanding is that I am NOT looking at this particular example. The starting conditions of your examples are that Pilot A has Presence V and Pilot B doesn't. Well, duh, of course Pilot A is going to finish faster than Pilot B if he trains anything Charisma related. Who I am trying to talk to, though are people who have NOT YET TRAINED Presence V; the guys who are looking at this Presence V skill and wondering if the week and a half of training will do them any good. The question here looks not only at the benefits of Presence V, which is of course a good thing to have if Charisma skills is your game, but the entire benefit and cost. Of course I'd take Presence to V if I could get it right now, but I can't because there is a training time associated with it.

It will if they want to train a loooot of Charisma skills up. And by a looot I mean training most everything up to Level 5. I'm sorry Pottsey, but I don't see where you got that bogus number of only training half your Leadership skills up to level 5 and saving THAT MUCH TIME thanks to the sole 1.1 attribute increase that is Presence V (along with Learning V); especially considering that extreme example of marginal benefit I showed above.

Just as a final note, I tried changing the other advanced learning skill level 5 levels and got these results.

Differences of:
Eidetic Memory V: 101 days, 21 hours, 9 minutes, 59 seconds (6x the savings of Presence V)
Logic V: 130 days, 8 hours, 2 minutes, 3 seconds (~7.5x the savings of Presence V)
Focus V: 90 days, 8 hours, 15 minutes, 18 seconds (~5.5x the savings of Presence V)
Clarity V: 153 days, 16 hours, 53 minutes, 10 seconds (~9x the savings of Presence V)

Once again, I encourage you to go back and read what I posted in the opening post...

TLDR: Like training every skill relying on Charisma in the game? Then Presence V'll save you some time. Otherwise, it's probably not worth it.

DarthCaboose
Posted - 2009.09.11 09:04:00 - [82]
 

Edited by: DarthCaboose on 11/09/2009 09:08:46
Edited by: DarthCaboose on 11/09/2009 09:07:42
Added as a good example to my argument:

Just so everyone understands that I am talking about the idea of MARGINAL BENEFIT, I will use a real-world example to highlight this really crucial part of my argument.

Suppose you live in a country that pays out a yearly stipend of $100 to all adults from the time they turn 18 until the day they die. It is easy to calculate the amount of money you can expect to earn from this government benefit by taking the age you'll live to minus 18 and multiplying that by $100.

Now suppose the government, in dire need of cash to support this program, allows its citizens to pick a slightly modified stipend plan. The way it works is this: When you turn 18, you forgo receiving a payment for two years (18 turning on 19 and 19 turning on 20), but instead get $101 a year (20 turning on 21 and onwards). Would you take this deal?

Let's assume that the value of money doesn't change due to inflation (not too real-world like but whatever, it's the math principle I'm trying to get at). What would be your motivation for picking this plan? Why it would be to benefit more as a result. After all, when you are 18 years old, you want to look at the plan that will give you the most money. As you can see, the person is forgoing $200 to receive an additional $1 per year but starting at the age of 20 as opposed to 18. Thus, it will take 200 years after the age of 20 to recoup that lost money. You can see that no sane human being living in our current medical technology level would want to pick this plan, because he would be losing more money than he would be earning.

Now this above example assumed that the value of money was time-independent; doesn't matter whether you get the money when you're 18 or when you're 65. However, when we translate this "example" into Eve and change the $100 stipend into "skill points", we cannot approach these skills points as being truly time-independent (and while there will definitely be someone who does treat the earning of "skill points" into various skills, it is quite safe to say they are in the minority: More people find training a multitude of skills to level 3 or level 4 as better than picking just a few to level 5 since the benefits between the levels are all the same, though the training time is not).

Now, Presence V does have a happy ending, you do actually save time in the long run! However, I point out that as very few people treat "skill points" as being time-independent, we must approach this "example" with another consideration; even if picking the $102 plan might benefit us in the long run (say new technology allows people to live to the age of 300), would losing the $200 at the early age of 18 and 19 (perhaps your most active years) be worth it?

Remember, considering the Pottsey example of two people at the age of 20 where person A took the government program and is earning $102 versus the person B who didn't and is earning $100 and comparing the benefits from there is NOT what I am talking about, since this approach does not look at the $200 forgoed by person A.

The point of my argument is not to compare person A and person B at the age of 20, but looking at whether person A should take the government program at the age of 18! Please keep this in mind!

I hope this example helps you all understand what I'm trying to get at!

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2009.09.11 11:33:00 - [83]
 

DarthCaboose said Hey Pottsey. I'm guessing you just like arguing for the sake of arguing,
No I am not. I am trying to improve your advice and correctly help new players. You said "Please let me know if you find something to the contrary!" I found something to the contrary that makes Presence V very worthwhile making you end just leadership skills 24+days faster than Presence IV. I am only trying to help new players decide if Presence V is worth it.



DarthCaboose said " Pottsey, I have read through your posts and you do make sense when you talk about Pilot A and Pilot B wanting to change skill tracks to something with more Charisma-related skills in there. Of course, assuming the starting conditions you stated are correct, then it is perfect mathematical sense to assume that conclusion."
It seems basic enough not sure how else I can explain it. Also I am ill today with a bit of a fuzzy head so anything I try and explain will most likely be less clear than normal. Which part of new players changing skill focus don't you understand? Surely it's clear that players change skill focus. Game events can make you switch to a new skillplan focused on Charisma.




DarthCaboose said " Who I am trying to talk to, though are people who have NOT YET TRAINED Presence V; the guys who are looking at this Presence V skill and wondering if the week and a half of training will do them any good"
I am talking about the same people. As I demonstrated those people can end up finishing there skill plans much faster with Presence V over Presence IV if they have a skill focus change.




DarthCaboose said " I'm sorry Pottsey, but I don't see where you got that bogus number of only training half your Leadership skills up to level 5 and saving THAT MUCH TIME thanks to the sole 1.1 attribute increase that is Presence V (along with Learning V); especially considering that extreme example of marginal benefit I showed above."
It is not bogus just because you fail to understand it. Take this example a new player stats on January 1st and gets Presence V early on. 6 months later he joins a corp that corp asks him to get the following plan as they need a command pilot and the new player wants to have a use in the corp. Leadership 5, Fleet Command 5, Mining Director 5, Mining Foreman 5, Warfare Link Specialist 5, Wing Command 5.

With Presence V, Charisma 19 and Willpower 15 the new plan takes 219 days 19hours.
With Presence IV, Charisma 18 and Willpower 15 the newplan takes 228 days 22hours

As you can see if the new player followed your advice his plan would take 9days 3hours longer. If he got Presence V his plan ends 9days 3hours days faster over Presence IV. Add in say Siege Specialist and it goes over 9days sooner. Add in all the leadership skills and I believe your 24day sooner with V. All due to changing skill focus.



DarthCaboose said " Once again, I encourage you to go back and read what I posted in the opening post..."
I ask the same as you. As you Cleary do not understand my posts. I still do not agree with the opening post. Its misleading advice. You are talking about payoff. I am not, what I am talking about are ending skillplans weeks faster but having not yet hit payoff with presence V. Your advice is misleading new players on the vuale of Presence V by only giving half the facts.


Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2009.09.11 11:41:00 - [84]
 

Edited by: Pottsey on 11/09/2009 12:01:35
DarthCaboose said " However, the key issue that you do not seem to be understanding is that I am NOT looking at this particular example."
I understand that. The problem is you should be looking at that example. Your giving advice that Presence V is not with it based on your example. But you're not looking at the other examples when Presence V is very worthwhile. How are new players meant to know when Presence V is worth getting and when its not if you advice never mentions some of the bigger benefits to Presence V?



DarthCaboose said "Like training every skill relying on Charisma in the game? Then Presence V'll save you some time. Otherwise, it's probably not worth it."
I proved that wrong at least I proved its wrong some of the time.



DarthCaboose said "but let's expand my little experiment so that ALL variables are accounted for!"
You're still not accounting for the variable of changing skill focus. Once you account for that variable Presence V gets much more worthwhile.

Your experiment always has the skillplan starting early with Presence IV over V. But in game often that is not what happens.

EDIT:
" You are saving, with taking Presence to Level V, 17 days and 13 hours in total. Notice that this saving DOES TAKE INTO ACCOUNT the training time of Presence V."
One of us is making a mistake here or I misunderstood that sentence which wouldn't surprise me with how my head feels. Even counting different base attributes one of us has done something wrong. You say 17days are saved on all skills without counting the training time for Presence V. I get 17days just on leadership not counting time taken to train Presence V.

The spreadsheet I use says
Presence IV All leadership skills with Charisma 18 and Willpower 15, takes 417days, 12 hours.
Presence V All leadership skills with Charisma 19 and Willpower 15, takes 400days, 19 hours
17days diffrence just on leadership.

Using Evemon and different base attributes of Charmsia 6 and willpower 6. For all leadership I get 259days with Presence IV. 248days with Presence V. (I didn't have the 10% to attributes factored in) 11 days difference. Not counting time taken to train Presence V.



DarthCaboose
Posted - 2009.09.11 18:01:00 - [85]
 

Edited by: DarthCaboose on 11/09/2009 18:01:56
Originally by: Pottsey
DarthCaboose said Hey Pottsey. I'm guessing you just like arguing for the sake of arguing,
No I am not. I am trying to improve your advice and correctly help new players. You said "Please let me know if you find something to the contrary!" I found something to the contrary that makes Presence V very worthwhile making you end just leadership skills 24+days faster than Presence IV. I am only trying to help new players decide if Presence V is worth it.


That is true, I did ask for advice and any indication of evidence to the contrary. That usually comes with the caveat that I would respond and try to talk about these issues.

Originally by: Pottsey
DarthCaboose said " Pottsey, I have read through your posts and you do make sense when you talk about Pilot A and Pilot B wanting to change skill tracks to something with more Charisma-related skills in there. Of course, assuming the starting conditions you stated are correct, then it is perfect mathematical sense to assume that conclusion."
It seems basic enough not sure how else I can explain it. Also I am ill today with a bit of a fuzzy head so anything I try and explain will most likely be less clear than normal. Which part of new players changing skill focus don't you understand? Surely it's clear that players change skill focus. Game events can make you switch to a new skillplan focused on Charisma.


Regardless of changing skill focus or not, the leadership skill set is a subset of all possible skills. I have tried doing the math for looking at just leadership skills and the numbers.

Originally by: Pottsey
DarthCaboose said " Who I am trying to talk to, though are people who have NOT YET TRAINED Presence V; the guys who are looking at this Presence V skill and wondering if the week and a half of training will do them any good"
I am talking about the same people. As I demonstrated those people can end up finishing there skill plans much faster with Presence V over Presence IV if they have a skill focus change.


Your argument, once again, concludes that training Presence V has no cost. It does, there's not other way around it. Your character needs to train Presence to V for a good week and a half to two weeks, depending on how well optimized your character is. While your analysis of skill focus change is valid, it still pales in comparison to the whole "not enough skills with Charisma attribute in Eve" argument.

Originally by: Pottsey
DarthCaboose said " I'm sorry Pottsey, but I don't see where you got that bogus number of only training half your Leadership skills up to level 5 and saving THAT MUCH TIME thanks to the sole 1.1 attribute increase that is Presence V (along with Learning V); especially considering that extreme example of marginal benefit I showed above."
It is not bogus just because you fail to understand it. Take this example a new player stats on January 1st and gets Presence V early on. 6 months later he joins a corp that corp asks him to get the following plan as they need a command pilot and the new player wants to have a use in the corp. Leadership 5, Fleet Command 5, Mining Director 5, Mining Foreman 5, Warfare Link Specialist 5, Wing Command 5.

With Presence V, Charisma 19 and Willpower 15 the new plan takes 219 days 19hours.
With Presence IV, Charisma 18 and Willpower 15 the newplan takes 228 days 22hours

As you can see if the new player followed your advice his plan would take 9days 3hours longer. If he got Presence V his plan ends 9days 3hours days faster over Presence IV. Add in say Siege Specialist and it goes over 9days sooner. Add in all the leadership skills and I believe your 24day sooner with V. All due to changing skill focus.

DarthCaboose
Posted - 2009.09.11 18:24:00 - [86]
 

In light of all this, I realize that your math consists of excluding the training time of Presence V in comparisons while not so with Presence IV. As such I would like to shift the focus of my argument from defending my point of view where payoff is the most important concept behind training Learning skills vs. your point of view where being able to be "flexible" is excellent in Eve.

The ability to be completely and perfectly flexible in Eve comes at a price. A price in time. Quite a considerable amount of time to be exact; training Learning skills can eat up a big chunk of your time. It is quite safe to say that there will always be various skills competing for your time and attention on the skill queue.

Now, if you approach Eve from a long term perspective (such as myself), then one would feel inclined to take all those learning skills and Cybernetics to the max and plug in those +5s on a safe clone. However, there are those of us out there who approach Eve Online as a new experience; some may wish to stick around for a year or two before the next latest and greatest game comes out, others may wish to just want to test the waters of Eve to see if it's for them. Based on Eve's popularity and player changes in numbers, it's quite safe to say that there are a lot of people out there who don't see themselves playing Eve for the rest of their life. This post was geared towards the players who would be around for a few years or so by pointing out, hey, just keep in mind what the payoff will be for training Presence V WHILE INCLUDING THE TRAINING TIME OF PRESENCE V.

It might seem a bit unnatural to some to want to look at only the payoff time, but I would like to point out a phenomenon of the Eve training system. For any given skill, there are 5 levels which each provide their own equal benefit towards something in Eve (each level provides 20% of the benefit). Training a skill to Level 5 provides that same 20% benefit, but at 80% of the time of the whole skill training time. Now, there are some times where training that skill to Level 5 is absolutely worth it; skills like Production Efficiency to cut back on waste (which cuts into an Industrialist's margins), Electronics and Engineering to 5 to enable better fits for ships, and the like. But many times, training a skill to Level 5 is only done because that would open up other crucial skills (like how Astrogeology to 5 and Mining Barge to 5 opens up Exhumers and the hulk) or if a player wants to specialize for the best.

The benefits of training Mining Barge to 5 are that not only do Mining Barges mine 3% more (that extra 20% benefit) but also you open up skills to Exhumers. That is the payoff of your training time and, in terms of ISK, it is quite well worth it! Training Electronics to 5 opens up a lot of science skills and cloaking as well as allows you to make more CPU-intensive fits. What is the defining "payoff" of Presence V? What benefits does it hold? A faster training time! But... the units of payoff for Presence V are the same as the cost of training Presence to V (we'll neglect the relatively cheap 4.5 million ISK skill book cost). Therefore it makes logical sense to want to compare those "times"! The payoff of "flexibility" is a privilege gained by training Presence V, which is a very nice advantage but does require being analyzed with the comparison of "times". After all, gaining the ability to switch skills around faster has its benefits and costs; both of which are primarily in units of time. It should be obvious that comparing those times is crucial for the neophyte player.


DarthCaboose
Posted - 2009.09.11 18:40:00 - [87]
 

Edited by: DarthCaboose on 11/09/2009 18:41:14
Your analysis of the leadership skills makes sense (except for excluding the cost of Presence V) considering how high in rank those skills are compared to the other Charisma skills. Of the 4 big skill groups in Eve, the following categories have their sum of their skill ranks as follows:

Corporation Management: 29 ranks
Leadership: 73 ranks
Social: 21 ranks
Trade: 35 ranks

That is, Leadership accounts for about less than half of all the Charisma skills in the game. As there are more Charisma skill points in Leadership compared to the other categories, it pays off to consider maximizing your Charisma points there if that is your focus.

This post was just to highlight the higher weight of Leadership to other Charisma-related endeavors. I still am standing firmly behind my numbers and concept of payoff, as it is a logical form of costs vs benefits.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2009.09.11 19:48:00 - [88]
 

" Your argument, once again, concludes that training Presence V has no cost."
How many times do I have to say that's wrong? My argument is not that Presence V has no cost. Presence V has a cost. My argument isthe cost is secondary to the your current in game role. What matters at least from my point of view is the current skill focus and current skill role. Being 12+ days, 17+ days or 24+ days better at your current role or whatever timeframe is what matters. Being more efficient at your current in game role is what matters.

The cost for Presence V doesn't matter if your current in game role is far better and more efficient due to Presence V over Presence IV. I don't care about the cost when you can do what you want in game better. How good you are at what you want to do in game is what matters. Not payoff cost. At least that's how I see it.

I think we understand each other now and although we don't fully agree on values it doesn't matter. I don't think my argument pales against there are not enough skills. But that's for everyone else to make their own minds up on.

DarthCaboose
Posted - 2009.09.11 22:56:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Pottsey
" Your argument, once again, concludes that training Presence V has no cost."
How many times do I have to say that's wrong? My argument is not that Presence V has no cost. Presence V has a cost. My argument isthe cost is secondary to the your current in game role. What matters at least from my point of view is the current skill focus and current skill role. Being 12+ days, 17+ days or 24+ days better at your current role or whatever timeframe is what matters. Being more efficient at your current in game role is what matters.

The cost for Presence V doesn't matter if your current in game role is far better and more efficient due to Presence V over Presence IV. I don't care about the cost when you can do what you want in game better. How good you are at what you want to do in game is what matters. Not payoff cost. At least that's how I see it.

I think we understand each other now and although we don't fully agree on values it doesn't matter. I don't think my argument pales against there are not enough skills. But that's for everyone else to make their own minds up on.



As long as we understand this difference, then, like I said, your Presence V selection is for the best. Back to the actual numbers though...

Alrighty, I plugged in a new set of numbers for a brand new character in EveMon and measured the skill benefits of training all Leadership skills (for the new fleet leader who wants to swap roles) with and without Presence V. This is exactly what I did:

1. Get out my new character (he's my Jita alt, but he has no skills trained up beyond the basic post-Apoc skill set) and start up a new skill plan.
2. Add all learning skills and have EveMon and optimize them for the best skill training order.
3. Add +5 implants just for the sake of emulating the desired ability to be able to train skills up quickly.
Note: Though I did this at the start of the skillset we will only be comparing the training of the leadership skill set AND the training of the leadership skill set WITH Presence V.

4. Perform a neural remap for 15 charisma and 9 willpower (this is to further optimize the character in training up the desired Leadership skill set).
Note: I did say that the marginal benefit of spending time to increase an attribute by 1 (1.1 with Learning 5) was less when the base attribute is at a higher number. Though this is not best case in this scenario, the point is to show that the truly optimal character will not benefit as much as is thought to be.

5. Add all Leadership skills to their Level 5 maximum. This does not include the public skills in EveMon that are not available.

6. Confirm that the SP / hour of the Leadership skills is at its maximum of 2772 SP / hour thanks to the maximized Charisma and Willpower stats.

7. Perform a total time analysis for training all Leadership skills AND Presence V (Note: Presence V is added AFTER the remap, making it even faster)!
Total training time of all Leadership Skills AND Presence V = 248 days, 19 hours, 27 minutes, 11 seconds.

8. Remove Presence V from the plan queue and re-evalute the training time of all Leadership Skills.
Total training time of all Leadership Skills WITH Presence IV = 244 days, 9 hours, 29 minutes and 2 seconds.

There you have it. Only 4 days and 10 hours saved. It's a good savings, but considering that the Leadership skills is almost 50% of all Charisma skills, the training benefits of said Presence V for ALMOST HALF OF MOST Charisma skills is only 4 days and 10 hours! Naturally, this bonus would be greater if Charisma was not as well optimized as through the procedure I trained above.

Shoogie
Caldari
Serious Pixels
Posted - 2009.09.11 23:56:00 - [90]
 

Mr. Caboose,
I think most people agree with you, but your last few walls of text haven't added anything to this argument other than make Pottsey respond.

You can't plug skills into EveMon, count up the time benefit, and say this is the BEST CASE SCENARIO! No, it really isn't. CCP will release new skills at some point in the future. Some of them will likely be charisma based. People who trained Presence 5 will get those skills faster than the rest of us. (Because nobody can buy the book until the server comes up after the expansion introducing them.) EveMon can't tell you the future.

Also, honestly, NOBODY will use all the charisma skills. If you are a fleet commander with 250 pilots under you, there is no way you are also going to be able to use the hundreds of trade slots given by Tycoon 5. If you are a mission runner who benefits from all the social skills, you will not also need the skills to CEO a corporation of 1000 pilots.

Do you agree with me, the total number of skillpoints you have on your character sheet is less important than the number of skillpoints that you put to use? I have a couple levels of corporation management and ethnic relations. I am not now, nor do I plan to be a CEO of a corporation. Those skillpoints are going to waste, and the time I spent to earn them was wasted. Once I got on a completionist kick, and trained all four races battleships and large weapons. Yet I've never sat in a Minmatar battleship. Those are wasted skillpoints. I have Electronic Attack Ships to 4, but haven't flown one in over a year. I am sure everyone can think of examples like that.

On the other hand, maybe something will happen and I will become a CEO someday. Maybe large projectiles will get a massive boost, and the Maelstrom will be the new fit of the month. I will have a couple weeks’ head start over someone who had not trained it at all. (But then perhaps my Amarr battleship skillpoints will become the wasted ones.)

I am with you and I stopped training Presence at 4. Pottsey trained it to 5. The time I could have spent on Presence instead went to get me approximately 500k navigation and gunnery and other skillpoints that help the ships I am currently flying. Some of those skillpoints are wasted.

Pottsey gained flexibility.

CCP released the Orca. Pottsey had the ability to get into it faster than I could. But I still have 500k skillpoints that help my current fits. If I were to actually fly an Orca, many of those skillpoints would be wasted.

What if something happens in game and I suddenly decide to specialize in command ships? Now I really need all the gang boosting skills. Pottsey can train the leadership skills faster than I can, but I still have 500k more support skills to make the command ship more survivable.

What if CCP releases WIS, and includes 6 months of charisma skills to get the T2 exotic dancers? Pottsey will get them a week before I will. But I will have 500k skillpoints that benefit my current fits. What if the T2 exotic dancers are so great that I completely stop flying all my old ships? Then those 500k skillpoints I have over Pottsey are wasted.

Honestly, I think the odds of that are very slim, and I am happy with my choice to stop at 4.

That is how this argument needs to be presented: You can train other things that will benefit you now. Or you can train advanced learnings to make yourself more flexible to respond to future changes.

(Now I hope you understand why Pottsey will never be impressed with your ability to plug things into EveMon.)




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