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blankseplocked [Proposal] - Minmatar Large Projectile/Ship Fix - Astrophobic's
 
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maya ibuki2
THORN Syndicate
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2009.09.03 00:33:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: ClogMan
Supported.

Solid Prefekt
Haven Front
Posted - 2009.09.03 05:30:00 - [62]
 

Edited by: Solid Prefekt on 03/09/2009 07:22:52
Here are my personal initial thoughts. Changes should be gradual so you can look back and fully grasp the direct and indirect affects of a change. Some of these are too steep and conveniently leaves out factors that do benefit Matar. I think a slight nerf to Amarr would be of more value as they got the ships with stats so out of whack.

All autocannons: +35% falloff. Hit quality reduces the damage at optimal + falloff to 38.6%, tracking independent. This is a very steep loss of damage and ambits are practically manditory on every AC ship just to get decent damage.
- So a straight up 35% falloff increase? So my Vaga can then hit from outside point range and still do pretty good damage. Would have to see a graph to compare it with other race weapons, but seems a little overpowered.

Tiered falloff: Keep the falloff the same for the middle tiered autocannons. Reduce the falloff of the lower tier by 10%, increase the falloff of the upper tier by 10%.
- You do currently have an incentive of 5% increase damage. Maybe take tracking penalty off then you will see more people switch between the different tiers. So on top of the 35% you want another 10% i am guessing for Tier 3? Would have to see this in comparison to others (factoring tracking, cap usage, ammo bonuses, and ammo types)

Artillery: Increase the base damage modifier by 50%. Compensate by increasing the rate of fire by 50% as well. This gives artillery a bit of it's bite back, but not all of it. Increase clip size by 50% as well. Finally, increase optimal by 10% across the board. The result is a higher alpha but the same DPS, and a little bit less pain from reloading.
- So you want a 10% increase in optimal on top of the Tempest optimal bonus? Couple that with a 50% Alpha increase on guns that take no cap and have a nice falloff compared to the other guns?

The Tempest: Increase speed and agility by 15%. Change the bonuses as following: Damage bonus to 10% per level, 5% falloff per level. This gives it a little bit of seperation from the maelstrom which currently overshadows it in nearly every role. It makes the tempest a much better pirate boat and gives it a good anti-support role while staying mobile. It has the option of sitting nice and close with a large alpha from artillery, or being a mobile autocannon and neutralizer machine. It will still suffer from a confused mid/low slot configuration, so it won't be the next gank/tank battleship like the mega or geddon. It will actually lose DPS in favor for some true versatility.
- So 25% falloff increase plus the 10% increase you want to give guns? The tempest does have 2 utility slots so it can quickly turn into an RR/Neut BS without any sacrifice of slots and it has the unused cap to use them. Why not just have a total of 2-3 BS in the game as they are all turning the same.

The Muninn: Move a highslot to a midslot. Utility highslots don't belong on sniper HACs, nevermind two of them. Increase speed and agility by 10%. Combined with the artillery changes, I think it will be just fine. It may not reach the dps/tracking of the zealot, but it will have a seperate damage type and be faster and more agile. There is no reason why the amarr HAC should be faster than the minmatar HAC.
- Hmm. This one I am on the fence with. We have 2 utility plus drones that are both useless for a Sniper. I would almost be fine taking away a utility plus the drones for a mid. The one extra utility could possibly be used for a neut (though you won't have grid for it)

The Typhoon: Switch armor and shield. Give it some more fitting room (+1000 PG/40 CPU)
- More grid would be nice (I would be willing to make drone bay smaller for it). And then a double dmg bonus for just one of the weapon types (missile or arty) (like you did with the Naglfar).

Ecky X
SniggWaffe
FREE KARTTOON NOW
Posted - 2009.09.03 06:13:00 - [63]
 

Edited by: Ecky X on 03/09/2009 06:13:50
Originally by: Solid Prefekt
All autocannons:
- I see no value in making this change. ACs are fine the way they are. I don't want to be forced to put on ambits.


That doesn't make any sense. "Don't increase my base range, I don't want to have to fit rigs to increase my range."

??

Originally by: Solid Prefekt
Tiered falloff:
- You do currently have an incentive of 5% increase damage. Maybe take tracking penalty off then you will see more people switch between the different tiers. A 10% in falloff is too great and too much of an advantage.


Why do blasters get a falloff increase and not autocannons?

Also remember that falloff is only about 38.5% as strong a mechanic as optimal.


Originally by: Solid Prefekt
Artillery:
- So you want a 10% increase in optimal on top of the Tempest optimal bonus? Couple that with a 50% Alpha increase on guns that take no cap and have a nice falloff compared to the other guns?


The Tempest does not have an optimal bonus, nor is astro calling for one. Even with his proposed changes, artillery will still be the shortest long range weapon. His Tempest proposal actually lowers its DPS, below its already lowest-in-class DPS. I'm against his Tempest-specific changes, but for different reasons. I support the rest.


Originally by: Solid Prefekt
The Tempest:
- So 25% falloff increase plus the 10% increase you want to give guns? When you factor in all the mods and skills I wonder what optimal + falloff range you get.


Still far, far less than the 90km optimal you get with an Apoc using pulse lasers.


Originally by: Solid Prefekt
The Typhoon:
- You mean switch the slot layout so it is shield? I like the armor phoon. This is still a good and fun BS, just takes a lot of SP. More grid would be nice (I would be willing to make drone bay smaller for it). And then a double dmg bonus for just one of the weapon types (missile or arty) (like you did with Naglfar).


No, he means give it more armor than shield. Right now, it has 7 lowslots and more shield than armor - a very confused ship. It doesn't have the grid for an active armor tank either... but I feel the Phoon is pretty decent already.


---

Given these clarifications, would you support his changes?

Solid Prefekt
Haven Front
Posted - 2009.09.03 07:25:00 - [64]
 

Edited by: Solid Prefekt on 03/09/2009 07:26:08
Edited by: Solid Prefekt on 03/09/2009 07:24:50
Originally by: Ecky X
Given these clarifications, would you support his changes?


I updated my post and where I do support the changes I noted it. I don't support all of it (especially all at one time). Though, if you did get this all in, it would definitely benefit me.

Kiko Hamasaki
Posted - 2009.09.03 09:01:00 - [65]
 

/signed

Hanen
Posted - 2009.09.03 09:03:00 - [66]
 

got my vote

Kaito Haakkainen
Posted - 2009.09.03 11:39:00 - [67]
 


Mister Xerox
Posted - 2009.09.03 12:12:00 - [68]
 

Yeah, what he said... Minmatar is already Eve on Hard Mode, so make their ships worth the effort.

Stonewall Zachhoefs
Caldari
22nd Black Rise Defensive Unit
General Panic.
Posted - 2009.09.03 14:47:00 - [69]
 

YARRRR!!yes...1000x yes!!! love the look of minnie ships...especially the pest...now, give me a good reason to fly it.

Undertow Latheus
Posted - 2009.09.03 17:07:00 - [70]
 

supported, although im thinking arty may need something more... The increase in alpha will help artillery instapop things, but will only be helpful if instapopping things. And even with 10% more optimal they will still be the shortest range and have by far the worst tracking. For sniping against targets that you know you can not kill in one volley, artillery would be even worse besides for the much needed optimal boost

nafiy gnaw
Posted - 2009.09.03 18:47:00 - [71]
 

supported

AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2009.09.03 18:55:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Undertow Latheus
supported, although im thinking arty may need something more... The increase in alpha will help artillery instapop things, but will only be helpful if instapopping things. And even with 10% more optimal they will still be the shortest range and have by far the worst tracking. For sniping against targets that you know you can not kill in one volley, artillery would be even worse besides for the much needed optimal boost


The intent wasn't to make them a better fleet weapon, the intent was to give them more of a role in small gang combat where they excel while keeping around the same performance in a fleet. The optimal nudge plus the falloff bonus of the pest will make it a little easier to use arties in a fleet setting, but the big change is small gang and hit and run mechanics. I want people to say "oh ****" when they see 4 tempests sitting on a gate. Right now it's "lol".


AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2009.09.03 21:05:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Solid Prefekt
- So a straight up 35% falloff increase? So my Vaga can then hit from outside point range and still do pretty good damage. Would have to see a graph to compare it with other race weapons, but seems a little overpowered.


I don't know what you call "pretty good damage" as the vaga has mediocre to poor damage at optimal. I'd love to include some graphs but I don't really have the tools necessary. The falloff increase would make the graph look somewhat like the EFT graphs. Currently EFT graphs don't account for hit quality, so a 33% boost would make more or less identical.

Quote:
- You do currently have an incentive of 5% increase damage. Maybe take tracking penalty off then you will see more people switch between the different tiers. So on top of the 35% you want another 10% i am guessing for Tier 3? Would have to see this in comparison to others (factoring tracking, cap usage, ammo bonuses, and ammo types)


Other guns have scaling optimal AND damage, I don't see why minmatar should get the shaft here. Another 10% ontop of the 35% proposed is very little when considering DPS at range, honestly. That's what, a single ambit? The equivalent of a 3-4% boost in optimal if my math serves me right.

Quote:
- So you want a 10% increase in optimal on top of the Tempest optimal bonus? Couple that with a 50% Alpha increase on guns that take no cap and have a nice falloff compared to the other guns?


Yes. You fail to note the abysmal DPS, optimal, ROF, fitting reqs among other things.

Quote:
- So 25% falloff increase plus the 10% increase you want to give guns? The tempest does have 2 utility slots so it can quickly turn into an RR/Neut BS without any sacrifice of slots and it has the unused cap to use them. Why not just have a total of 2-3 BS in the game as they are all turning the same.


I don't know what you're talking about here. The proposed change will actually make it do less damage than before (9 effective turrets vs 10), but instead give it a larger alpha and some extra range. It will continue to be paper thin with a crap medium/low config, low sensor strength, low lock range and other things. It will basically turn into an oversized BC.

Quote:

- More grid would be nice (I would be willing to make drone bay smaller for it). And then a double dmg bonus for just one of the weapon types (missile or arty) (like you did with the Naglfar).


I think the bonuses and slots are fine, and will be fine especially if the changes applicable to autocannons go through.

Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2009.09.03 23:26:00 - [74]
 

Signed, Minnies need some fresh air as it's getting kind of musty and dank inside our old rust buckets.

Some caveats though: I don't see the need to reduce the Minnie long range ammos damage (Carbonised Lead, Titanium Sabot, Proton etc), since they are about the only counter that Minnies have in long range engagements with Caldari, for instance (unless you want to really use tremor, which wasn't even mentioned here, because just about no one uses it because its dps is so anemic).

Personally, I don't like the arty ROF changes either. What arties need are better optimal, higher rof and bigger clip sizes. (And they'll still be worse than either missiles or lasers at long range)

But the rest of the proposals, yes.

Ecky X
SniggWaffe
FREE KARTTOON NOW
Posted - 2009.09.04 00:40:00 - [75]
 

Edited by: Ecky X on 04/09/2009 00:43:56
Originally by: Bomberlocks


Some caveats though: I don't see the need to reduce the Minnie long range ammos damage (Carbonised Lead, Titanium Sabot, Proton etc), since they are about the only counter that Minnies have in long range engagements with Caldari, for instance (unless you want to really use tremor, which wasn't even mentioned here, because just about no one uses it because its dps is so anemic).



Erm, you do realize that Tremor does more damage than Proton, Nuclear, and Carbonized lead, right?

Ammos other than phased plasma, EMP, and fusion, + T2 long range are rarely used, for good reason. Minmatar long range ammos do more damage than other races, but Astro is suggesting that all minmatar ammos are moved 1 "damage level" toward close-range, since nobody uses long range ammos.

Xoth Freefall
Minmatar
Massively Mob
Massively Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.04 01:14:00 - [76]
 

I support this.

Hatsumi Kobayashi
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.09.04 11:53:00 - [77]
 

Signed, supported, loved, touched and kissed.

Black Kestrel
Dark-Rising
IT Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.04 15:51:00 - [78]
 

Supporting all but the tempest changes. I don't believe any concessions need be made to justify boosting that ship. Ecky's tempest changes seem superior. All of astro's other changes I fully support. Signed x2.

AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2009.09.04 17:24:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Black Kestrel
Supporting all but the tempest changes. I don't believe any concessions need be made to justify boosting that ship. Ecky's tempest changes seem superior. All of astro's other changes I fully support. Signed x2.


This seems to be a recurring theme. I'd love to work on the tempest some more (to be completely honest this whole list was from the top of my head written in 10 minutes), but I have no faith in CCP using a 100% role bonus on a tech 1 ship. I do quite licke Ecky's change, but I don't think it's realistic at all. I think we should come up with something easier or more concrete, perhaps something as simple as 7.5% ROF/5% falloff. This gives it even more DPS than 10% damage/level and doesn't have quite the overwhelming alpha. I'm open to suggestions, always.

Ecky X
SniggWaffe
FREE KARTTOON NOW
Posted - 2009.09.04 18:11:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: Black Kestrel
Supporting all but the tempest changes. I don't believe any concessions need be made to justify boosting that ship. Ecky's tempest changes seem superior. All of astro's other changes I fully support. Signed x2.


This seems to be a recurring theme. I'd love to work on the tempest some more (to be completely honest this whole list was from the top of my head written in 10 minutes), but I have no faith in CCP using a 100% role bonus on a tech 1 ship. I do quite licke Ecky's change, but I don't think it's realistic at all. I think we should come up with something easier or more concrete, perhaps something as simple as 7.5% ROF/5% falloff. This gives it even more DPS than 10% damage/level and doesn't have quite the overwhelming alpha. I'm open to suggestions, always.



There are a number of equivalent ways to boost the Tempest. 100% role + 25% damage + 10% falloff is the same DPS with battleship V as:

6 turrets, 8 highs
8% ROF per level (gives 10.00 effective turrets) + 10% falloff
-same DPS, less alpha than current but better range

6 turrets, 8 highs
13.5% damage bonus per level (10.05 effective turrets) + 10% falloff
-same DPS, far more alpha, better range

---

But again, the above changes would make the Tempest very heavily dependent on Battleship V.

AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2009.09.04 19:32:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: Ecky X
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: Black Kestrel
Supporting all but the tempest changes. I don't believe any concessions need be made to justify boosting that ship. Ecky's tempest changes seem superior. All of astro's other changes I fully support. Signed x2.


This seems to be a recurring theme. I'd love to work on the tempest some more (to be completely honest this whole list was from the top of my head written in 10 minutes), but I have no faith in CCP using a 100% role bonus on a tech 1 ship. I do quite licke Ecky's change, but I don't think it's realistic at all. I think we should come up with something easier or more concrete, perhaps something as simple as 7.5% ROF/5% falloff. This gives it even more DPS than 10% damage/level and doesn't have quite the overwhelming alpha. I'm open to suggestions, always.



There are a number of equivalent ways to boost the Tempest. 100% role + 25% damage + 10% falloff is the same DPS with battleship V as:

6 turrets, 8 highs
8% ROF per level (gives 10.00 effective turrets) + 10% falloff
-same DPS, less alpha than current but better range

6 turrets, 8 highs
13.5% damage bonus per level (10.05 effective turrets) + 10% falloff
-same DPS, far more alpha, better range

---

But again, the above changes would make the Tempest very heavily dependent on Battleship V.


7.5/8% ROF and 10% falloff sounds pretty acceptable to me. Yeah it would pretty much demand BS 5, but I think I'm okay with that. The maelstrom is by far the easiest minnie BS to fit and use, especially for PVE and that type of thing.

Boink'urr
Minmatar
Wasserette De Tarthorst
Posted - 2009.09.04 22:55:00 - [82]
 

Edited by: Boink''urr on 04/09/2009 22:59:58
I love minnie and my first BS was a Typhoon... great fun and loved it to death (litterally, lost 3), but not flying it again until i got better skills. I'm cross training atmo because i feel kinda backwards for being a minnie flying minnie BS D:

What i like most would be the change to getting a better alpha while retaining DPS. thats what i expect when i hear 'Artillery' - slow to reload, but when it hits, it does make your ears go 'pop'.

So, good ideas - signed :D

Alt Tabbed
Posted - 2009.09.05 01:25:00 - [83]
 

nice ideas

Bunzan Cardinal
Ascendent.
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2009.09.05 01:43:00 - [84]
 


Gneeznow
Minmatar
Ship spinners inc
Posted - 2009.09.05 07:04:00 - [85]
 

yar

Petrov Kreigt
Caldari
Asteroids Civil Rights Union
D'Haran Empire.
Posted - 2009.09.05 10:20:00 - [86]
 

Yes please, show minnie, and in particular the Tempest some love.Very Happy

You got my vote Orakkus.



Marz Ghola
Minmatar
Royal Order of Security Specialists
Posted - 2009.09.05 22:45:00 - [87]
 


This is a very fair proposal. I would prefer moar, but this is fair.

Signed

Chestrano
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.09.05 23:27:00 - [88]
 

you can support this thread by click on the "check here if you want to give yout support to the idea/discussion going on"-Box at under the textbox, where you write your message.

The Cuckoo
Posted - 2009.09.06 00:42:00 - [89]
 

Agree with everything except the last one about the typhoon.

Orakkus
Minmatar
m3 Corp
Posted - 2009.09.06 01:05:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Petrov Kreigt
Yes please, show minnie, and in particular the Tempest some love.Very Happy

You got my vote Orakkus.





Thanks, but it's Astrophobic's idea. :)


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