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blankseplocked No More Tears, a Carebear's solution to salvage/can tipping grief
 
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IsTheOpOver
Posted - 2009.08.27 22:59:00 - [1]
 

My proposal is a very simple one. It would eliminate some grief tactics available in the game.

Currently when you steal from someone else's jettison can (or from the wreck of an NPC pirate that was shot) you are "stealing" the item. The consequence of stealing this item is that the player who you stole from is now able to shoot at you without Concord interference. Sounds ok, yeah? But of course if someone does do this stealing, they're fully aware of the mechanics involved and more often than not, they are quite prepared for the cases when the victim decides to fight back. The victim is going to lose a LOT more than what was in the can if they decide to fire even one shot, as this gives the thief the opportunity to warp off, come back in a PVP fitted ship and destroy/ransom the victim.

The current system only provides more opportunity for the griefer to grief.

Now what if the penalty for stealing from a can is the same as attacking a neutral player. Yes, that's right... By stealing from the can, your punishment is Concord arriving 10 seconds later to destroy your ship, the same as if you opened fire. The same warning system would be in place... "PROCEED WITH THIS DANGEROUS ACT??" The thief would also suffer a security loss, the same as shooting at someone.

Now you still will have some yahoos going around with their shuttles flipping cans, getting themselves blown up.. but at some point the security loss would be a deterrent.

Now take this a step further and make it applicable to salvaging. You want to salvage that wreck that belongs to someone not in your fleet or corporation? "PROCEED WITH THIS DANGEROUS ACT?" Sorry Ninja Salvagers, this would be no longer a "condoned" playstyle. Yes, it's true.. you wouldn't be able to harvest Carebear tears any longer. But hey, you know you could take up Mission Running yourself. They should be quite profitable without Ninjas taking your loot.

So that's it. Simple. Remove these griefing tactics with 1 easy step. Make stealing/salvaging from wrecks that aren't yours punishable by death. Give ample warning and dish out security hits (the same as if you were attacking someone).

For those of you who like to duel and use the cans to start off the fights, well this would not be possible any more using this technique. What should be added for such things is an option by right-clicking on a ship saying "offer duel" or something of that nature and a countdown could ensure if the other person agrees. Much like duels in WoW except total ship destruction would be possible.

Finshraira
Amarr
Posted - 2009.08.27 23:04:00 - [2]
 

I like the idea even though i don't have these problems. However, salave should be a free for all thing. You cant put your name on a piule of junk in space can you? no! You can claim its loot for you killed it and you need the drops, but the wreck should be free game.

IsTheOpOver
Posted - 2009.08.27 23:11:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: IsTheOpOver on 27/08/2009 23:11:56
Well currently the wreck you created by killing the pirate does have the name of your corp on it. Right now there's a debate between Mission Runners and Ninja Salvagers on weather or not the salvage should be a free-for-all or if it does indeed belong to the MR. Ninjas point at quote after quote from CCP saying "it's designed this way, there is no problem". MR's say common sense is that if the stuff inside the wreck belongs to me, then the salvage should as well. I tend to side with the MR's here and think it should be all one "corpse" belonging to whoever killed it, but the debate continues on. (As can be seen by the 100 threads about MR's complaining about Ninjas in the Missions and Explorations forum)

Edit: spelling

Bemoteajh
Posted - 2009.08.27 23:12:00 - [4]
 

in pvp when ever ive killed someone it shows the wreck i just made as not mine im sorry i killed you your ships remains should be mine not yours
how does this figure to your anti ninja law

IsTheOpOver
Posted - 2009.08.27 23:16:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Bemoteajh
in pvp when ever ive killed someone it shows the wreck i just made as not mine im sorry i killed you your ships remains should be mine not yours
how does this figure to your anti ninja law


Well if you kill someone legally or in low/null sec then of course you should be able to loot your kill. I thought that it would make the wreck "yours" in that case. If it doesn't, I guess that creates a problem that would have to be fixed as well.

Hmm I guess this would also interfere with the suicide ganks of haulers going to Jita. If the 3rd party hauler guy who is charged with looting the victim was not able to do that job without being blown up, then yeah.. that would **** off a whole other section of griefers.

I suppose in the end this rule should just pertain to NPCs that are killed and jettisoned cans.

AtheistOfDoom
Amarr
Invicta.
Posted - 2009.08.27 23:43:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: AtheistOfDoom on 27/08/2009 23:43:46
Originally by: IsTheOpOver
TL;DR: wha wha I want other people to get global!


CONCORD are not the goddamn police! I also think you're mixing up EVE with Hello Kitty Online.

g0ggalor
Posted - 2009.08.27 23:50:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: g0ggalor on 28/08/2009 00:18:32
This idea is so fail.

CCP allows theft on every level in this game. If you can't deal with it, then maybe Hello Kitty Online is a better game for you.
Originally by: IsTheOpOver
You want to salvage that wreck that belongs to someone not in your fleet or corporation?
Read this before you fail any harder.

Washell Olivaw
Posted - 2009.08.28 00:03:00 - [8]
 

Four suckers fallen for the troll so far, how many more to go?

Bidding closes at ten.

Gin G
The Helghast Corporation
Posted - 2009.08.28 00:25:00 - [9]
 

ive got a better idea

CCP start banning pople that make threads about ninja salvaging this or stealing salvage that.

4THELULZ
Posted - 2009.08.28 00:26:00 - [10]
 

1/10

IsTheOpOver
Posted - 2009.08.28 00:41:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Washell Olivaw
Four suckers fallen for the troll so far, how many more to go?

Bidding closes at ten.


It's a discussion of an idea, not a troll. Do feel welcome to post how you feel about it.

So far it's not a popular idea based on those who have replied. This is not a surprise to me, but doesn't make it a troll.

BTW this mechanic has been used before (UO) and worked pretty well.


Washell Olivaw
Posted - 2009.08.28 01:09:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Washell Olivaw on 28/08/2009 01:19:21
Edited by: Washell Olivaw on 28/08/2009 01:12:59
Edited by: Washell Olivaw on 28/08/2009 01:10:32
Originally by: IsTheOpOver
It's a discussion of an idea, not a troll. Do feel welcome to post how you feel about it.


Taking from cans used to be nothing. Mission runners didn't mind, because they were virtually impossible to find. Miners did mind, due to jetcan mining, which was an exploit in itself. Miners wanted an ability to do something about stealing their ore. CCP liked the idea of jetcan mining and decided not to fix it, but to expand on it. Ownership and the agression timer was added to containers jettisoned/created by players. This backfired into the miners faces by creating the canflip manouver still popular today.

Fastforwarding a few years and the rig system is born, along with salvage. Destroyed NPC's stop dropping containers and start dropping wrecks. Wrecks are a new type of item and CCP makes the wreck drop a container to hold the loot. So wrecks need to be assigned ownership as well as the ability to pass it on to a container. CCP deliberately does not extend the ownership to salvaging.

At the same time, the probing system gets an overhaul to make it more fun and to allow probers to find missionrunners. CCP, normally adding each system pre-nerfed, makes probing missionrunners so easy low-sec mission running ceases to exist overnight. This shows CCP's clear intension that players should not be unfindable and that missionspaces are meant to be invaded by other players. Ofcourse, with salvaging implemented other players actually have a reason for being there.

From that day on, we've been having multiple salvage threads a week, threads you've read, threads on an issue you know CCP's position on. Yet you still make this thread, you know it's flamebait and you're likely to know this has zero chance of being implemented. So how is it not a troll?

The most common sentiment in all the threads is the disparancy between loot and salvage. Knowing CCP's design decisions for the past 6 years, it's more likely that they'll remove the criminal flagging of wrecks and wreckdropped loot containers than adding it to salvaging. Adding in a crane/tractor module you'll need to loot along with the salvager module. First come, first served. Don't like it, go low-sec/0.0 so you can defend your claims. Second, the most heard and effective way you hear to deal with it is: move to a less crowded mission hub. If there's one thing CCP wants, it's for people to spread out a bit and balance the load on the server a natural way. This provides a strong incentive for CCP to keep things as they are.

P.S.: UO had PvP and non-PvP servers, so saying that a mechanic regarding PvP works is not relevant to EVE.
P.P.S.: Don't mistake me for a ninja salvager. Missionrunner through and through. That statement is backed by standings with a ton of corps, feel free to check in-game. I don't have a problem with this issue because I apply several methods to deal with it which delivers me 99.5% of all salvage I create. I actually like the added depth it provides to the game.

OrcephDrake
Posted - 2009.08.28 01:15:00 - [13]
 

Um... I always wondered why CCP didn't make this illegal like shooting... actually no i never did. It was pretty obvious. They wanted to add the need for additional protection and self defense , random human encounters, and a real feel being in a dynamic choice orientated world were there isn't an alignment per say just one guy ****ing of another guy.

In the end I am afraid to say this IsTheOpOver but your idea was over before you even posted it.

One compromise you might be able to add is IF (this is a massive giant really redockulius if) IF you could get CCP to fix bounty hunting to were it is useful. You could say that the only way to put a bounty on someone's head is if they do an illegal act on u. Its a way to defend yourself when a lot of the time you r truely defenseless. Its a way for the week in strength to punch back with there wallets not there lazers. It wont stop ninja looting.. but it make you feel better! Knowing the ninja got whats coming! I sure that ninja looters would agree they probably dont give a frak. They be like BRING IT FOOL! And stuff. Anywho.. just a thought.

IsTheOpOver
Posted - 2009.08.28 01:33:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Washell Olivaw

*history of cans and salvaging*...

From that day on, we've been having multiple salvage threads a week, threads you've read, threads on an issue you know CCP's position on. Yet you still make this thread, you know it's flamebait and you're likely to know this has zero chance of being implemented. So how is it not a troll?



No, because it was a legitimate idea and I wanted to see what people thought about it. Of course the "GB2WOW", don't make this HELLO KITTY responses were completely expected. It is an idea that goes against what a lot of people think the game should be.

Originally by: Washell Olivaw

P.S.: UO had PvP and non-PvP servers, so saying that a mechanic regarding PvP works is not relevant to EVE.



Well sort of. There are 2 servers to this day that don't have "Trammel" which is the wow-like version of the world. (Siege Perilous and Mugen) All of the servers had the "old lands" where people could kill each other (outside of towns/guard-zone) and basically do whatever to each other.

In the beginning there was only 1 land and no Trammel. It was infinitely better.

In any case, it does serve to compare the two. UO is probably the closest MMORGP to EvE by a long shot. UO was the first real MMORGP and is still around to this day (12 years old). It's truely amazing how much stuff they actually got right for being a pioneer.

Originally by: Washell Olivaw

P.P.S.: Don't mistake me for a ninja salvager. Missionrunner through and through.

Doesn't matter much to me. You play the game and don't need to have a bias to express your opinion. Thanks for your thoughts!

Spud Mackenzie
Posted - 2009.08.28 01:45:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Spud Mackenzie on 28/08/2009 01:45:15
1) Wrecks are "supposed" to be public property. Ask anyone... they have the 5 year old forum posts bookmarked, if not tattooed to their palms so they can stroke their epeen with the few times CCP ever responds to their customers.

If we are ever going to get players to realize that "loot" and "salvage" are not the same thing, that "loot" is earned and "salvage" is a byproduct, then they need to fix the way wrecks spawn.

- Recoverable modules and cargo should be jettisoned in a Corp tagged Jet Can, so only the victor/mission runner can tractor them.
- The wreck itself should spawn completely neutral and unaligned, meaning anyone can tractor the wreckage.

Then players can't complain about "their wrecks" being stolen, if indeed CCP wants them to be open game for everyone.

2) As for the high sec theft, because thats the only place Concord shows up... It might be a cool idea. These days, there are WAY TOO MANY YARRRR!!"hard core uber pirates" in High Sec, with too much time on their hands. They either flip cans just for kicks and giggles, or because they claim "they're looking for PvP".

If you're bored, go play the game. If you're looking for PvP, go join FW or head out into Low/Null. If you're just a dick, then get bent.


As much as everyone wants to contest it, High Sec is for the ughcare bears. CCP wants to make as much money as they can. So they are going to try and design a game that appeals to as many customers as possible.
For all the epeen strokers, they made Null space with lots of freedom to do as you please. If you want to claim ownership to a system or constellation, you just have to kill anyone who disagrees.
If all you want is to mine rocks or grind missions, then you do that too.

If CCP wants to find ways to encourage people to fly in Low/Null... they need to start by running all the criminals out of High Sec. THEY'RE THE ONES who are milking the system, and hiding under the umbrella of reasonable safety. They're afraid to venture into Low/Null, where they know their pitiful PvP skills will get them killed.
But they're more than happy to outfit a ship and pick on a mission runner or miner.

BeanBagKing
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2009.08.28 01:50:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: AtheistOfDoom

CONCORD are not the goddamn police! I also think you're mixing up EVE with Hello Kitty Online.


Truth

I could write a two page argument to go with this, about how it's a sandbox MMO and should not restrict players, even if you don't like their actions, but honestly, I'm not feeling it right now, so I'll end with this...

Worse Idea Ever.

OrcephDrake
Posted - 2009.08.28 01:55:00 - [17]
 

I was ignored.. *tears* sniff sniff its ok IsTheOpOver i just walk to this corner over here and cry... lonely...

IsTheOpOver
Posted - 2009.08.28 02:18:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: OrcephDrake
I was ignored.. *tears* sniff sniff its ok IsTheOpOver i just walk to this corner over here and cry... lonely...


haha No sorry .. I was going to reply about how another game had a very similar bounty system .. but I didn't want to talk more about UO Embarassed. Basically the top 10 bounties were listed on the bank posters and it was actually quite a big ego-boost for the player killers who reached the top of this chart.

Of course, like EVE, it's a silly system. As soon as the bounty gets high enough, they just have a friendly person kill them on purpose and they split the bounty. I can't think of any way of a bounty system actually working. Not without making a penalty for death so severe that nobody would want to play the game.

I do like the idea of "player justice" where the carebears form a posse and go out to kill the badguy and get revenge.. but it just never happens. The badguys are always better at the PVP, it's what they do. The miner in a hulk that sicks his 5 drones on the guy who just flipped his can quickly realizes this when he's forced with paying a 50m ransom or losing his ship.

Washell Olivaw
Posted - 2009.08.28 02:34:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Washell Olivaw on 28/08/2009 02:34:48
SWG had a working system. It listed 5 bounties available for collecting. You picked one and you wouldn't know who it was until you tracked him/her down. It was perfectly possible to track down a corp mate or someone in the same faction. That really seperated the bastards from the nice guys. At the terminal it would add a trivial amount of cash to each bounty so you couldn't identify targets based on amounts. You needed to have the mission in order for the bounty to pay out. More than one person was allowed to have the same mission.

It worked on a server with 2,000 to 3,000 players, it should work even better on EVE. Try to get mission for your mate when there are a 1,000 bounties roughly the same size.

You could potentially stick 10 billion on someone to make him stand out from the crowd, so there would need to be an upper limit on the daily amount that can be added to someone's bounty.

OrcephDrake
Posted - 2009.08.28 02:38:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: OrcephDrake on 28/08/2009 02:40:09
YES! Player justice! Taking justice in your own hands! The only issue with this is that the only way to do this in EvE is become the bad guy. Or join FW. But then the other dude would have to be in FW as well. I really dont wanna discuss bounty hunting in your thread cuz that isnt the point of your post.

But lest face the fact IsTheOpOver.. your idea is over before it even started. Sadly. But the root desire behind your idea can still be salvaged! Punt intended. Basically you want carebear / good guy justice. You want the good guy to kill the bad guy. Maybe we could smoke the peace pipe with the flamers here on figure out how to achieve this!

Its gonna be hard! Its wont be easy... there hasn't been a came trully able to achieve it. But maybe there is a methodology worth looking into that could enhance the ingame experience for all. Or maybe I am just a dreamer.

^_^

Edit: Washell Olivaw I give you kodos! Thats awesome. I have been trying to find a solution to Bounty hunting issue and you just totally blew my mind. I never thought about changing how a bounty hunter picks a bounty. That is most interesting. More thought of how to implement this is needed! I wont sleep tonight!

Baka Lakadaka
Gallente
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2009.08.28 02:57:00 - [21]
 

1. Stealing does not equal griefing (in almost every case).

2. This proposal to blow up everyone who steals would make for a boring game where all the care-bears make lots of ISK and all the pirates find another MMO.

3. There's nothing wrong with the current system. If you don't like being stolen from, think up some innovative tactics like having a cloaked Combat Recon near your miner to protect yourself or flying a battle-Badger(there are lots of things you can do, if you think). The proposed changes would make life boring and allow even more AFK ISK making. You should have to think and you should have to be at the keyboard if your ship is undocked.

4. Nerfing everything to make it safer isn't the answer, it's better to make things difficult and make people think a little.

5. I LIKE the idea of being able to assign some sort of workable bounty against those that steal from you to friends/colleagues (although currently if you're in a player corp, corp-mates get the same rights to open fire against can-flippers, as the cans actually belong to the corp). The current bounty system is flawed in that the player with the bounty just gets a friend to claim the ISK.

6. The current justice system works, except for those that just want free ISK....Eve isn't that game and just because you're in a 'safe' high-sec system shouldn't mean you get to do everything in perfect safety.


IsTheOpOver
Posted - 2009.08.28 02:58:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: OrcephDrake
...Basically you want carebear / good guy justice. You want the good guy to kill the bad guy.


Actually I just want the carebear who is mission running/mining to not have to put up with grief techniques and exploits from those who just want to "collect tears" or whatever they want to call it.

PvP and player justice really don't have anything to do with this, that would be best suited for low/null security.

Now why is low-sec "empty"? Because hi-sec is just too good. They should make missions and mining MUCH better in low-sec so that the risk/reward is more balanced. But that's another issue.

You want to make the bounty system work better? Have someone lose SP based on the bounty that's collected when they die. *evil laugh* Twisted Evil

AtheistOfDoom
Amarr
Invicta.
Posted - 2009.08.28 03:03:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: IsTheOpOver

You want to make the bounty system work better? Have someone lose SP based on the bounty that's collected when they die. *evil laugh* Twisted Evil

How does that make it better?

IsTheOpOver
Posted - 2009.08.28 03:29:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: IsTheOpOver on 28/08/2009 03:33:28
Originally by: AtheistOfDoom
Originally by: IsTheOpOver

You want to make the bounty system work better? Have someone lose SP based on the bounty that's collected when they die. *evil laugh* Twisted Evil

How does that make it better?


Well then they wouldn't be able to just have themselves killed by their buddy to split the bounty without suffering a setback (in SP) to offset it. I do like the SWG method tho, sounds like they were at least trying to avoid the obvious problems with the traditional bounty systems.

Edit: BTW losing SP per bounty would be a bad idea. Asshats with lots of ISK would just throw giant bounties on ppl they didn't like.

Comodore John
Gallente
Trixi IFI
Posted - 2009.08.28 03:44:00 - [25]
 

you obviously havent been to dodixie. if you had youd realize the system relies on jetcans for the most part for pvp (blame lady spank)

OrcephDrake
Posted - 2009.08.28 03:45:00 - [26]
 

Yeah I am sorry i dont see how that would make things better for bounty.

Also i guess you idea is trying to stop grieving. While my idea is providing an outlet for it. I guess this is were we disagree. I dont think the things looters do are "exploits" in fact they are areas that CCP made just that way to help create a balance in the game. Again this is probably were you and me disagree.

I am glad you agree that having SP discounts would be lame for bounty hunting.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2009.08.28 07:53:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Kerfira on 28/08/2009 08:36:57
You may want to point out a problem before providing a solution. Can flipping, loot stealing and ninja salvaging is no problem....

There are easy solutions to all of these, provided the player has the average intelligence of a 5-year old.

EVE is a game about strife, competition and combat. It is not a happy-happy land where you can safely carebear in peace.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.

This is not the game you're looking for....

[EDIT] The solutions are all based on risk/reward. If you run a risk, you may get a bigger reward.
Can Flipping: Don't jet-can. You spend more time warping to station with your ore, thus earn less, but have zero risk.
Loot Stealing: Don't mission in a main mission-hub.
Ninja Salvaging: Don't mission in a main mission-hub.

Really! If you can't think up utterly simple solutions like this yourself, you have no future in EVE...

Survivor Aid
Posted - 2009.08.28 07:53:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Survivor Aid on 28/08/2009 07:55:50
Edit: Darn, my idea fails...

Sera Ryskin
Posted - 2009.08.28 08:03:00 - [29]
 

Cry more please. Ore theft is 100% avoidable as long as you aren't too lazy to protect your property. Either take responsibility for your own security, or go back to WoW.


Alternatively, go mine/mission in lowsec or 0.0 and just shoot the thief before he can steal anything. Problem solved.

Oliver G
G Enterprises
Posted - 2009.08.28 08:33:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Oliver G on 28/08/2009 08:44:18
Edited by: Oliver G on 28/08/2009 08:37:33
I think, the mechanics for salvaging/jetcan-stealing and so on are perfectly fine. I am a miner and a mission runner. I have never seen someone salvage my wrecks without permission... I have had ppl steal from my cans just for kicks. There was one guy once who took from my can, waited (!) till I came back with my battlecruiser and then we had a little fight... he took off. Later I saw that he paid for the ore he "stole" Very Happy. An EVE-Mail of him stated he was just looking for a good PVP fight. And even if he wouldn`t have paid, I WOULD NOT care. It takes me about 20mins to fill a can... bleh...

Salvaging the wrecks of ships shot down by others sucks a bit for my terms. However, if the loot and the wreck would spawn separately, it would make the mission runner feel less "being ripped off". The idea was stated already, but I don`t know who said it... not me... At least this would keep ninja salvagers in business and protect your cans from being drawn away from you.

Finally, the bounty thing is meant as a "possible punishment". It does not work atm. Why?
1. The "corp mate shoot me and we split the bounty" exploit.
2. Ppl with lots of ISK can make ppl a priority target even IF they have done nothing wrong, simply by placing a bounty on their heads! Thats crap.

What can we do about it?
A. In order to overcome the "corp mate shoot me" problem, we use the already mentioned (forgot who said it...) mechanic of using contracts to bounty hunt. You can go to some office, accept a bounty hunt job, maybe get some info about the location of your prey and then you are allowed to shoot him and collect the bounty. The target is chosen at random, you simply state in what interval the bounty should be (you dont even get a list of bounties, just a list of intervals).
Just because you shoot someone with a bounty will not mean that you collect it. Even better: if someone with a bounty on his/her head is shot down by a non-contractor, the bounty does NOT get removed.
Furthermore, I would like to see (at least in empire space) the possibility of navy ships engage ppl with very high bounties on their head. Like 50mil+. Why this is useful? Read next point. Altogether this would make bounties a punishment as it is intended.

B. Not everyone should be able to place a bounty on everyone! (Wait! Read to the end!) I personally would find it much better if the game mechanicts only allow it to place a bounty on someone who just committed a crime against you/your (not NPC) corp. (What exactly is a crime? Dunno. Kill your ship/pod. Steal from your can. Maybe more?). Also the maximum amount of bounty should be capped depending on the crime (Kills you in your uber expensive ship allows for higher bounty to be placed... whatever).
So besides the agression counter stuff, that does not help you much if you sit in your Hulk, you could also get the bounty counter (like 1 hour in which you have to decide how much bounty you want to place on the person).
Furthermore, bounties should only be placed in regions where the security status is above 0.3 (discussion possible). Why? Well if you are in null-sec, shooting you/your **** is not a crime -- noone cares here.
On the other hand, if someone has a large bounty on his/her head, this would be a proof that he did a lot of crimes (due to the above mentioned restrictions on who is allowed to place a bounty and how much). Navy ships should open fire on these ppl (not always, at random, with low probability). Its like the law trying to catch and punish you...
That would remedy point 2.

I have not thought about all this in detail. Especially the "navy shooting ppl with high bounties on their heads" could be counter productive. Maybe we can discuss about this seperately...

Edit: The most horrible spelling errors.Razz
Edit2: Created a new thread about the bounty thing here:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1164546


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