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Salpad
Caldari
Carebears with Attitude
Posted - 2009.08.27 18:53:00 - [1]
 

I remember a lot of discussion, early when certificates were launched, that they weren't very well thought out, but I'd appreciate some examples. Preferably really good ones.

DarthCaboose
Posted - 2009.08.27 19:34:00 - [2]
 

I'm at work right now and I don't have EveMon installed, but wasn't there a drones requirement to the Ice Mining certificates?

If that's true, you got a prime example of dumb right there...

Salpad
Caldari
Carebears with Attitude
Posted - 2009.08.27 19:37:00 - [3]
 

Cool, thanks, but I'd like several more good examples!

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.08.27 19:45:00 - [4]
 


They're not THAT stupid, just a bit misleading.
Or just weird.
Or a bit of both.

A few examples, you say ?


First, probably a bugged one, "Common Ore Refiner", under Harvesting. It seems quite odd to request a "standard" level of another certificate ("Refinery Foreman") for the basic version, but then it gets weirder with "Rare Ore Refiner", where you need the "improved" version of the same other certificate for the basic version. Obviously, it should have been the basic version of it all along, but I guess somebody screwed up ?

Second, and this is one of my personal beefs, the entire "Passive Shield Tanking" line.
Seriously, L2 TSM plus L4 Shield Upgrades on top of L4 Shield Management and L5 Shield Operation... that's got to be AT LEAST worth an "improved" certification in passive shield tanking ! But no, they consider this the "basic" version... WTF ? And what the bloody hell does "shield reinforcement" have to do with it if you already add TSM for the higher versions ? Seriously, if you're using passive mods on a passive recharge shield tank you're "doing it wrong" anyway.

Last but not least, the whole Starter Profession category, but this is only the case lately.
There was a good reason to remove the masses of weird L5 skill pre-assignments and give us the double-speed-training, but then again, remove the outrageous L5 prerequisites from the basic certificates too ! Seriously, you SHOULD NOT really need "Missile Bombardment level 5" to be considered a "basic" Caldari SpecOps pilot... and the list could go on and on with plenty of other examples.


... oh, and before I forget, the certificates themselves are ONE thing, but then the certificate recommendation assignment to the ships... a whole level of "/facepalm" altogether, every now and then.
Stuff like, oh, say, "basic active shield tanking" for *drumroll* KESTREL (too bad there's no such thing as a "range and speed tanking" certificate).
Or standard ACTIVE shield tanking for Caracal ? Seriously ? Active ? I guess you could, but why would you want to ?
Not a gamebreaker in itself, but combined with a lot of useless stuff dumped in the basic versions of certificates (and a lot more in the higher levels), it makes you wonder...
...you know, like wonder how much of this certification broohaha was to _ACTUALLY_ help newbies get the bare minimum skills done as fast as possible, as opposed to basically make them train a lot of junk they don't really need early on, so that they get some real feeling of "progress" later on when they figure out the skills they should actually have trained for big performance improvements (and keep them around longer before they quit in the process - IMO, the effect is exactly the opposite, but who am I to judge... it's negligible either way, so, "MEH".)

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.08.27 19:47:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: DarthCaboose
I'm at work right now and I don't have EveMon installed, but wasn't there a drones requirement to the Ice Mining certificates?
If that's true, you got a prime example of dumb right there...

Nope, can't see any right now.
That doesn't mean it wasn't there before this patch (or another patch before), they could have changed it eventually.

Washell Olivaw
Posted - 2009.08.28 01:45:00 - [6]
 

I hate the gunnery lines. Elite specs and Elite small/medium/large have virtually the same requirements. I would drop the spec skills of the Elite small/medium/large to give players a sense of accomplishment, after which they continue into T2, where they'll probably stick to standard. There is more stuff like that, where training one or two skills unlocks a whole slew of certificates. Spread the stuff out a bit, don't be so scared about giving players elite certificates a bit earlier.


Agent Known
Posted - 2009.08.28 04:55:00 - [7]
 

I personally like the Hull Tanking certificate. Cool

Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
Posted - 2009.08.28 05:53:00 - [8]
 

I have Elite Drone Operator. That counts as stupid, right?

Jim Nakamura
Posted - 2009.08.28 06:29:00 - [9]
 

The Core Targetting certificates are pretty stupid, especially considering how many ships suggest them to at least Standard level. Great idea, train to be able to target more things than the overwhelming majority of ships in the game can even handle!

Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2009.08.28 09:44:00 - [10]
 

Core Competency Elite is quite handy to have.

Casiella Truza
Ecliptic Rift
Posted - 2009.08.28 23:34:00 - [11]
 

A few poorly-thought-out specific details in some of the certs don't mean that the entire system stinks.

We could use a few tweaks here and there, particularly in the Basic Starter Professions and Targeting being "recommended" for some industrial ships (through the Core Competency certs), but overall the system accomplishes most of its design goals.

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2009.08.29 04:05:00 - [12]
 

Improved Active Shield Tanking requires Standard Shield Reinforcement. Standard Shield Reinforcement requires EM, Kinetic, Therm, and Explosive Shield Compensation skills. Given that shield compensation only works when your active hardeners are off, and only provide a pittance of protection, what's the point? If you have the cap to shield boost, you have the cap to run shield hardeners.


DarthCaboose
Posted - 2009.08.29 07:01:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: stoicfaux
Improved Active Shield Tanking requires Standard Shield Reinforcement. Standard Shield Reinforcement requires EM, Kinetic, Therm, and Explosive Shield Compensation skills. Given that shield compensation only works when your active hardeners are off, and only provide a pittance of protection, what's the point? If you have the cap to shield boost, you have the cap to run shield hardeners.




Training them up does make the passive hardeners approach the strength of the active hardeners, but yes, it is a little weird that both active and passive shield tanking certificates need shield reinforcement certificates...

I just wish that the shield reinforcement skills worked a little more intuitively (and ultimately, better) with the modules.

Tarasina
Posted - 2009.08.29 08:38:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: DarthCaboose
Originally by: stoicfaux
Improved Active Shield Tanking requires Standard Shield Reinforcement. Standard Shield Reinforcement requires EM, Kinetic, Therm, and Explosive Shield Compensation skills. Given that shield compensation only works when your active hardeners are off, and only provide a pittance of protection, what's the point? If you have the cap to shield boost, you have the cap to run shield hardeners.




Training them up does make the passive hardeners approach the strength of the active hardeners, but yes, it is a little weird that both active and passive shield tanking certificates need shield reinforcement certificates...

I just wish that the shield reinforcement skills worked a little more intuitively (and ultimately, better) with the modules.


I would say pretty useless. Lets say you have a passive that has 30% resists, with skills to lvl5, it will end up at around 40%...still 10% of the basic active...not worth the month or 2 of training for something that small a difference....cause its 40% of the Unresisted...slap on a active instead.

Kravick Drasani
Posted - 2009.08.29 15:06:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Or standard ACTIVE shield tanking for Caracal ? Seriously ? Active ? I guess you could, but why would you want to ?
Not a gamebreaker in itself, but combined with a lot of useless stuff dumped in the basic versions of certificates (and a lot more in the higher levels), it makes you wonder...


Two years ago when I first started playing this game thats how I tanked my Caracals. No one told me about passive tanking until I got into my drake, which came after I bought a Ferox (I didn't know any better LOL). Of course now I'd never active a Caracal. Hell I don't even fly Caldari ships any more. I switched to Gallente a little over a year ago. I survived, but active tanking a drake was kind of a mess TBH.

Yarinor
Capital Construction Research
Pioneer Alliance
Posted - 2009.08.29 16:35:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Tarasina
Originally by: DarthCaboose
Originally by: stoicfaux
Improved Active Shield Tanking requires Standard Shield Reinforcement. Standard Shield Reinforcement requires EM, Kinetic, Therm, and Explosive Shield Compensation skills. Given that shield compensation only works when your active hardeners are off, and only provide a pittance of protection, what's the point? If you have the cap to shield boost, you have the cap to run shield hardeners.




Training them up does make the passive hardeners approach the strength of the active hardeners, but yes, it is a little weird that both active and passive shield tanking certificates need shield reinforcement certificates...

I just wish that the shield reinforcement skills worked a little more intuitively (and ultimately, better) with the modules.


I would say pretty useless. Lets say you have a passive that has 30% resists, with skills to lvl5, it will end up at around 40%...still 10% of the basic active...not worth the month or 2 of training for something that small a difference....cause its 40% of the Unresisted...slap on a active instead.


Yea, because you'll NEVER EVER get neuted so your active hardeners are on all the time.

Nicoli Voldkif
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.08.29 18:09:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Yarinor


Yea, because you'll NEVER EVER get neuted so your active hardeners are on all the time.


But on the same thought if your neuted to the point where you can't run hardners then your more and likely not going to be worried about not having hardeners anyway.

Xing Fey
Posted - 2009.08.29 23:04:00 - [18]
 

T2 HML cert requires HAM skills......


Olga Chukarin
Posted - 2009.08.30 10:38:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Olga Chukarin on 30/08/2009 10:42:48
Heavy Drone Control Basic, cert says it lets you control 1 heavy drone. Reqs are Drones 1 and Heavy Drone Op 2.
Drones 5 (allowing you to control 5 drones) is a prereq for Heavy Drone Op.

Core Targetting (and as a result Core Competency), now that skill is messed up throughout the basic/standard/elite, since it requires L4 targetting for just the basic, L5 targetting and L1 in multitasking for standard, and L3 multi for elite.
L4 targeting is waaaaaay overkill for basic ships, as is L5 targeting and a level in multi for standard - they cant target that many things anyway, and on the other hand surely elite should mean multi is maxed out? after all it is supposed to be the best you can get?

Resource Harvester improved requires Rare Ore Refining? And why Mining Drones 5 yet only Astrogeology 3? Astrogeology is much more important (exhumers and modulated mininglasers) than drones!

Wormhole Generation, shoudnt this be renamed 'jump portal generation' or something, since wormholes are now part of the game and nubs might start thinking black ops ships can make their own wormholes?

Hull Tanking needs Core Integrity Elite - a cert that has no extra requirements than Hull Tanking but Shield Management 5..... i thought we were hull tanking, not shield tanking.....

Oh and as for the shield compensation skills for active tanking with hardeners, a T2 EM hardener gives 55% turned on and 1% turned off. L5 em compensation skill gives a 15% bonus, so the hardener now gives a 1.15% bonus when turned off.

Diefer
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.08.30 11:24:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Diefer on 30/08/2009 11:25:12
Originally by: Olga Chukarin

Oh and as for the shield compensation skills for active tanking with hardeners, a T2 EM hardener gives 55% turned on and 1% turned off. L5 em compensation skill gives a 15% bonus, so the hardener now gives a 1.15% bonus when turned off.


No, with L5 (specific) compensation, T2 active hardener gives 55% when turned on (skill has no effect) and 15% when turned off (up from 1% without skill).

Manu Hermanus
FaDoyToy
Posted - 2009.08.30 22:48:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Agent Known
I personally like the Hull Tanking certificate. Cool


the best one out there Twisted Evil

Josemite
Gallente
do you
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2009.08.30 22:56:00 - [22]
 

Core nav requiring such high levels of warp drive operation (yeah it's useful in the occasional instance you're getting hardcore neuted, but really), targetting ofc, and rare ore refining basic requiring crokite?! Seriously, I'm by no means focused on refining, yet I'm still 27 days of training away from a basic skill?

Kyra Felann
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.08.30 23:29:00 - [23]
 

Certificate requirements were quite wonky on release, but they've been improved quite a bit over time. They're not perfect, but not a bad guideline by any means. I think all of the really odd requirements have been fixed (shield skills for armor tanking certs, etc).

Kyra Felann
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.08.30 23:33:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Olga Chukarin
Hull Tanking needs Core Integrity Elite - a cert that has no extra requirements than Hull Tanking but Shield Management 5..... i thought we were hull tanking, not shield tanking.....


You missed the point. It's obviously a joke certificate. Why else would a largely ineffective type of tanking only come in "elite"? Why else would the description itself tell you that hull tanking is a bad idea?

Lanais Suleia
Posted - 2009.08.31 01:15:00 - [25]
 

I can't remember what the cert is called, but the elite one for BS projectile spec artillery requires a cert that requires BS spec autocannons to the same level, so if you get it you get all BS projectile specs at the same time. ugh

Ohhh Matron
Posted - 2009.09.01 12:49:00 - [26]
 

I like the way the Gunnery certs just seem to leap from Standard to Elite by having to take everything to 5. You cant really get anything inbetween.

Around 9 million in gunnery and still standard all the way!Laughing


Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2009.09.01 13:34:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Pottsey on 01/09/2009 13:36:24
Salpad said "I remember a lot of discussion, early when certificates were launched, that they weren't very well thought out, but I'd appreciate some examples. Preferably really good ones."

A lot of the problems have been fixed. The drone certs used to be pretty bad but now are ok. To become an Elite passive tanker you need 4 skills that I would guess 98% of Elite passive tankers never use or have. The main problem with certs is they make new players train a lot of useless or unneeded skills but its not as bad as the first version of certs.

An example being most wise players would train one or perhaps two T2 drone skills. But the certs used to say train all four, T2 drones. If I recall correctly I was maxed out on drones with over 10million SP's in drones alone, max damage yet I was classed as a basic drone user or something silly like that.

GavinCapacitor
Posted - 2009.09.01 19:29:00 - [28]
 

I have an example.

I am an accomplished Amarr pilot (BS V, T2 lasers / tank / drones / etc.). I have also participated in alot of PvP (usually in a sniper-apoc) trying to hold etherium reach from RA/Goons/everyone else. I can also fly cov ops and do exploration reasonably well.

AND YET I still do not have "core competency basic" for lack of some shield skill I never trained past lvl 1. I am also missing some certificates you would think my character would have, but core competency basic is a pre-requisite for them. In addition to this my "recommendation level" for _every_ ship (including any Amarr Battleship) is 0.

Lo Ram
Posted - 2009.09.04 18:15:00 - [29]
 

Frigate projectile turrets BASIC requires "Trajectory Analysis 2" which in turn requires "Gunnery 5".

Drykor
Minmatar
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2009.09.04 18:41:00 - [30]
 

I'm minmatar specced with over 55 million sp. I've done some crosstraining to other races. Yet in the starter professions I have more Elite certs for Amarr and Gallente than I have for Minmatar, and the same amount for Caldari. Why? Because I haven't trained Afterburner to level 5. Yes, that useless skill for something that already doesn't use any significant amount of capacitor.
I also do not have the Elite High-Velocity Helmsman because of this, even though it has nothing to do with speed and is insignificant in both pvp and pve.


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