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Konzul Proutek
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2003.06.23 11:10:00 - [1]


all ship builders should act now. If we continue to thread this market so bad we will soon see it collapse.

Everyone buys Copies now and put Ships on the market way way UNDER VALUE. Now everyone hast to compete and lowers their prices also. Thoraxes and Moa's are down to 9 Million Isk.

With the HIGH cost of new Minerals the production costs currently rise but prices are still falling just to sell one or another Cruiser.

For a price of 80 Million isk, a revenue of 2 Million isk would mean that there have to be at least 40 Cruisers get build and sold. 40 Cruisers work of purchasing or mining the minerals with absolutelly NO INCOME.

If we continue with that fuq it will all fall down. We need a controll of prices which guarantee a "minimum" price for a product.

The milk industry for example has minimum prices guaranteed for the milk they purchase. This guarantee's that the farmers (in our fact space farmers aka miners) get a decent price for their hard work and the milk industry also has some kind of revenue for their work.

We should IMMIDIATELLY stop the undervalue sales of space ships and EVERY corp should join together to talk about minimum prices for each ship. But every corp has to keep this price. Selling to corp members is not affacted.

I know it sounds hard if you are a pilot who is now confronted with a higher price for his ship. But just think what u feel like when producers stop buying minerals for npc prices and start to spam npc's who would result in a great decrease of the value of your work done.. Would u like that? I think no.

Konzul Proutek

CFO of beyond infinity financial services

Posted - 2003.06.23 11:38:00 - [2]

A very good point.
This way we'd all get the same amount of money for a ship without needing to worry about competitors...

Calista Industries
Posted - 2003.06.23 13:13:00 - [3]

Welcome to the free market!

Producers are basically screwed until they are given a way to differentiate their products. What we are seeing here is everything becoming what is called a commodity in the real world.

I've made a proposal in the Idea Lab for stat improvement research, which would allow manufacturers to finally differentiate themselves from the rest of the market.

Edited by: BSOD on 23/06/2003 13:13:39

Sol Systems Corp
Posted - 2003.06.23 13:54:00 - [4]

There are so many BP-Copys in the market that every chance is gone to get a fair reward for those who bought an original. May be some time there will be a reward when we are able to research originals to make better ships at all. Hard for those who come to eve-universe as newbies now. First they get no factory, then they buy a expensive one, only to find out that they can´t open an office there and at last the see that its impossible to get a reward on any BP they may buy as an original.
On the other hand, look at the frig market. Some days a rifter been down to 150k and a week later they´ve been at 250 again, when the discounter left market.

Majiya Bushi
Posted - 2003.06.23 14:51:00 - [5]

NPCs should purchase manufatured items for 10-20% over the cost to make.

How many Pirates spawn for hunters in an hour in eve?

How many new players to purchase ships??

I can't make my ship better because I have an original, therefore, why would ANYONE go out of their way to purchase from me, and not from another who just has a copy? (no reason...)

Konzul Proutek
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2003.06.23 16:47:00 - [6]


yes.. the oh so loved free market...

It is like we have seen it a few thousand years ago. It is said that about 1994 the software market was subject to be free. A corp grew so much by cheating others with simply buying them or blocking their products that they where known to be the one and only corp. Their CEO was the richest man of the world by 1998. After that day this corp has done everything to keep their power.

They charged higher and higher fee's, but when a corp came which wanted to compete with them they bought it, sued it or just sold their products way under value to maintain their power.

Do you really want to have a corp selling the Cruisers under Mineral costs just to boot out all other corps and finally kill the complete market?

High prices are not good. But moderat prices are.

The idea with NPC purchases is a great one.


Calista Industries
Posted - 2003.06.23 19:46:00 - [7]

"Do you really want to have a corp selling the Cruisers under Mineral costs just to boot out all other corps and finally kill the complete market?"

No corp is doing that. No corp will ever be dumb enough to do that, I don't see things getting that bad.

No artificial crutches that present hard limits should be put in place, period. The only things that should be done are things that ease market pressures in other ways (Example: Making megacyte somewhat easier to come by in smaller quantities, easing the price down a little bit, but not in large quantities that would flod the market. Also giving manufacturers more abilities to differentiate themselves with better products.)

Sad to say it, but nothing can sanely be done about the market until the researchers are given the ability to improve item stats to set items made from their BPs apart from the rest.

On a similar note, the mineral efficiency research should be changed to allow for greater rewards for those that choose to put time into researching the BP. But something would need to be done about production exploits. Originally I considered this to be impossible without adding 6-8 new attributes per unique item to keep track of mineral costs, but I realized that it can be done with a single attribute - Mineral efficiency level. That way items that were produced with reduced mineral costs will recycle for reduced mineral value. This would tie into the proposal I made in the Idea Lab section for a system that CCP could use to implement stat improvement research - Much of the code would be identical.

With this approach, some manufacturers could position themselves as "low-cost" vendors and put all their research efforts into reducing the cost to produce an item. Others could position themselves in the "Performance at all costs" arena. Similar to how many manufacturers differentiate themselves in the market today. (Even within the same manufacturer - Geo vs. Cadillac within the General Motors repertoire of brands.)

Posted - 2003.06.23 19:49:00 - [8]

If you have an orginal and are getting undercut by folks with copies why not stop making ships and make bp copies to sell instead? True it allows others to make ships cheaply but hey.. if you making money off selling copies to new folks who cares about the ships themselves. Just try to find your niche.

Posted - 2003.06.24 01:29:00 - [9]

I find this rather interesting especially mentioning Rifter Cruisers. In the Placid Region, the highest selling price is 150k and there are 20+ on the market and the lowest is 100k.

I am boggled as to how or why people can sell them for such a price? With a single blueprint researched for minerals 13 times, the cost for minerals alone (at the generic NPC price) is 174,199ISK. Even if you had a new character with Production Efficiency at level 5 this would drop is by 20% to 139,359ISK. While someone would be have to be highly specialized to get to this point I still don't see how multiple people can sell for 150k and then those for 100k? Am I missing something?

Mashadar Incorporated
Posted - 2003.06.24 09:26:00 - [10]

Milk Industry... interesting.

Posted - 2003.06.24 10:31:00 - [11]

You can make ship prices get higher by making the basics for them higher. What im saying is: Sell your ores and minerals only at high rate, dont dump them. Not the producers rule the market, the miners do... At least they do control most of the market, exceptions like 100 man corp who mine and produce their own minerals are always possible and you can never fight them.

Edited by: DREAMWORKS on 24/06/2003 10:32:28

Sol Systems Corp
Posted - 2003.06.24 11:16:00 - [12]

Not the high minerals are a problem, people don´t see the real costs for the lower ones. As long as miners sell the mexallon for example at 12 to producers its only worth 12, but I as a producer have to see the price that my miners could get for working a time (lets say 1h).
In this time they could get Zydrine for may be 1 mil. ISK. So the work is worth 1 mil. ISK not that 200k they would get by mining Mexallon for my factory. If take a look from that side a Rifter at 150k is far below the costs and that price will work only as long as miners are ready to sell Mexallon at 12 what is a bad reward for such a boring Job.


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