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MightyRhinox
Minmatar
Rhinox Heavy Industries
Twilight Military Industrial Complex Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.26 09:28:00 - [31]
 

Because CCP is satisfied that the prices are around where they intended them to be and are a realistic reflection of the kinds of margins RL manufactures make.

Intel, for instance has a profit margin of 7.38% and an operating margin of 17.02%.

This is about where every manufacturer in Eve operates (unless they're incredibly stupid), even the "free mins crowd", with the exception of some hot items (the details of which I'll not be sharing today :P)

MightyRhinox
Minmatar
Rhinox Heavy Industries
Twilight Military Industrial Complex Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.26 09:35:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Brock Dillinger
Originally by: Nika Dekaia
... people set the prices lower than they should, at times even make a loss without knowing it


"Than they should"? So, is your problem with aggressive competition, or the fact that people aren't playing the game the way YOU think they should? If people choose to sell under market value, irrespective of their ACTUAL COSTS, that's their business. Some of you guys need to get over it.


Yeah, all these people whining about others selling "too cheaply" are really whining about their own lack of competitive advantage.

Signore Kaeota
Caldari
Terra Incognita
Posted - 2009.09.26 10:22:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Jovoich
hehehe, I built and sell stuff under production cost, just to **** you emo babies off. Whats even more fun is when you try the 0.1 isk game, then I nail the prices :D


I now support people who sell under mineral price RazzLaughing

DeepFear4
Posted - 2009.09.26 10:30:00 - [34]
 

Bottom line is this: Every where you look there are ******s that want to mess things up for ppl that want to enjoy this fun game. We nned to put a stop to this non-sense.

Bellac
Posted - 2009.09.27 08:46:00 - [35]
 

well - the "minerals have no value" camp need a rethink - but it will never happen. Yeah I agree minerals are free - but to imply they have no value is wrong. In fact to say they have value at less than what the market will pay for them is wrong.

If you have a pile of minerals which you can not turn into a bigger profit with a tech2 BPC than simply selling the minerals on their own, then simply sell the minerals and keep the BPC for another day when profits are bigger. If we all do the same then prices will be driven up to a level which better suits the manufacturers.

Aylara
Posted - 2009.09.27 11:30:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Aylara on 27/09/2009 11:43:14
Originally by: Brock Dillinger
Originally by: Nika Dekaia
... people set the prices lower than they should, at times even make a loss without knowing it


"Than they should"? So, is your problem with aggressive competition, or the fact that people aren't playing the game the way YOU think they should? If people choose to sell under market value, irrespective of their ACTUAL COSTS, that's their business. Some of you guys need to get over it.


Selling under production cost is considered "unfair competition" and it is a criminal offence in ALL the market economies around the world. The problem with the capitalism today is that everyone wants to have monopoly.

Wikipedia article on Unfair Competition.

Dani SP
Posted - 2009.09.27 18:46:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Nika Dekaia
Because some people think: the ore I mine myself is free and ha no value. Or: the datacores I farm are free. That way, people set the prices lower than they should, at times even make a loss without knowing it.

Loot drops are a problem for T1 modules on top of that.


[/thread]
[/eve online]

this is why I moved to trading and PVP lol, the former for profit and the latter for fun.

there's no real profit on industry unless... A) you got a huge wallet... or B) you actually enjoy the industry tasks.

Signore Kaeota
Caldari
Terra Incognita
Posted - 2009.09.28 04:48:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Aylara
Edited by: Aylara on 27/09/2009 11:43:14
Originally by: Brock Dillinger
Originally by: Nika Dekaia
... people set the prices lower than they should, at times even make a loss without knowing it


"Than they should"? So, is your problem with aggressive competition, or the fact that people aren't playing the game the way YOU think they should? If people choose to sell under market value, irrespective of their ACTUAL COSTS, that's their business. Some of you guys need to get over it.


Selling under production cost is considered "unfair competition" and it is a criminal offence in ALL the market economies around the world. The problem with the capitalism today is that everyone wants to have monopoly.

Wikipedia article on Unfair Competition.


In eve, it's called griefing or stupidity, actually.

Baka Lakadaka
Gallente
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2009.09.28 05:00:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Jovoich
hehehe, I built and sell stuff under production cost, just to **** you emo babies off. Whats even more fun is when you try the 0.1 isk game, then I nail the prices :D


I just buy your stuff at low prices and either sell it elsewhere for a better price, or reprocess it and make something more profitable.

Whining about low prices is just silly, it's best to take advantage of them.

I for one support you in your efforts to sell at low prices, while I'm buying, it's good thing.


MightyRhinox
Minmatar
Rhinox Heavy Industries
Twilight Military Industrial Complex Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.28 08:55:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Aylara
Edited by: Aylara on 27/09/2009 11:43:14
Originally by: Brock Dillinger
Originally by: Nika Dekaia
... people set the prices lower than they should, at times even make a loss without knowing it


"Than they should"? So, is your problem with aggressive competition, or the fact that people aren't playing the game the way YOU think they should? If people choose to sell under market value, irrespective of their ACTUAL COSTS, that's their business. Some of you guys need to get over it.


Selling under production cost is considered "unfair competition" and it is a criminal offence in ALL the market economies around the world. The problem with the capitalism today is that everyone wants to have monopoly.

Wikipedia article on Unfair Competition.


Aylara plays the "It's not fair" card, wrecking herself for 5000 damage.

Aylara
Posted - 2009.09.28 09:52:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: MightyRhinox
Originally by: Aylara
Edited by: Aylara on 27/09/2009 11:43:14
Originally by: Brock Dillinger
Originally by: Nika Dekaia
... people set the prices lower than they should, at times even make a loss without knowing it


"Than they should"? So, is your problem with aggressive competition, or the fact that people aren't playing the game the way YOU think they should? If people choose to sell under market value, irrespective of their ACTUAL COSTS, that's their business. Some of you guys need to get over it.


Selling under production cost is considered "unfair competition" and it is a criminal offence in ALL the market economies around the world. The problem with the capitalism today is that everyone wants to have monopoly.

Wikipedia article on Unfair Competition.


Aylara plays the "It's not fair" card, wrecking herself for 5000 damage.



Ha?

Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
Posted - 2009.09.28 12:02:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Aylara
Edited by: Aylara on 27/09/2009 11:43:14
Originally by: Brock Dillinger
Originally by: Nika Dekaia
... people set the prices lower than they should, at times even make a loss without knowing it


"Than they should"? So, is your problem with aggressive competition, or the fact that people aren't playing the game the way YOU think they should? If people choose to sell under market value, irrespective of their ACTUAL COSTS, that's their business. Some of you guys need to get over it.


Selling under production cost is considered "unfair competition" and it is a criminal offence in ALL the market economies around the world. The problem with the capitalism today is that everyone wants to have monopoly.

Wikipedia article on Unfair Competition.


Because, according to that article it's only in the European Union, that must equal 'ALL' the market economies around the world. In the real world where people are paid real money to attempt to enforce this, enforcement is rare.

The reality is that the law exists because the market in Eve is far more efficient than those in real economies you don't need such laws. There are markets in the real world that have just two or three sources of a particular type of product, and one may have a clear advantage over the other two. In Eve, products produced by any method can be identical, and the barrier to entry minimal, there are tens of thousands of potential suppliers of any 'product'.

What's more the supply from BPOs is hard capped, they can not possibly gain market share by predatory pricing. Thus all T2 items will be priced above invention cost unless there is oversupply (more than 100%) through BPOs alone, in which case the prices will be only barely above the BPO build cost.

Keep in mind when calculating invention profit, decryptors can make a difference, also prices do fluctuate, and spiking material prices make make something appear unprofitable that when all the build jobs went on was quite profitable.

Also remember that tiny margins are all that are needed to maintain an account using GTCs, and make a good profit. People don't look at the 500k they make building one item, they look at the 400 million isk they make by selling 800 of the items.

Aylara
Posted - 2009.09.28 12:36:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Lord Fitz
Originally by: Aylara
Edited by: Aylara on 27/09/2009 11:43:14
Originally by: Brock Dillinger
Originally by: Nika Dekaia
... people set the prices lower than they should, at times even make a loss without knowing it


"Than they should"? So, is your problem with aggressive competition, or the fact that people aren't playing the game the way YOU think they should? If people choose to sell under market value, irrespective of their ACTUAL COSTS, that's their business. Some of you guys need to get over it.


Selling under production cost is considered "unfair competition" and it is a criminal offence in ALL the market economies around the world. The problem with the capitalism today is that everyone wants to have monopoly.

Wikipedia article on Unfair Competition.


Because, according to that article it's only in the European Union, that must equal 'ALL' the market economies around the world. In the real world where people are paid real money to attempt to enforce this, enforcement is rare.


Yeah, i see now that my experience in economics pale in comparison to yours, but since you were probably very tired when you made this post, you forgot about this: Wiki US Competition Law. I hope this will refresh your memory, but if you're not convinced, you can google for competition laws in all the democratic countries around the world.

Anyway, i was under the impression that he was thinking that this is a real word practice; i just tried to help him ...

MightyRhinox
Minmatar
Rhinox Heavy Industries
Twilight Military Industrial Complex Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.28 12:52:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Aylara

Yeah, i see now that my experience in economics pale in comparison to yours, but since you were probably very tired when you made this post, you forgot about this: Wiki US Competition Law. I hope this will refresh your memory, but if you're not convinced, you can google for competition laws in all the democratic countries around the world.

Anyway, i was under the impression that he was thinking that this is a real word practice; i just tried to help him ...


Yeah, selling cheaply is not illegal, selling cheaply with the express intention of driving out (note that is driving out, not just trying to make the sale ahead of)other competitors is illegal. As has been pointed out, given the commodity nature of the Eve market, it's not actually possible to do so.

Callista Omenswarm
Binary Industries Inc
Posted - 2009.09.28 17:54:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: Callista Omenswarm on 28/09/2009 17:54:55
Originally by: Nika Dekaia
Because some people think: the ore I mine myself is free and ha no value. Or: the datacores I farm are free. That way, people set the prices lower than they should, at times even make a loss without knowing it.


Ignoring the odd indie e-peen waving constituting itself as 'who knows more about economics' (geeks is weird) I'll go back to the first page and add this:

The 'minerals are free' theory is mostly bunk. That's not to say there aren't people out there selling trit to 0.01 ISK buy orders, or offering up items for sale below the buy orders for the materials, they just aren't a large chunk of the market.

A quick trip to any of the major, or minor, trade hubs with perfect refining offers up very few opportunities to make a profit from melting items down.

What tends to happen is a combination of factors:

Minerals are partially free
Mass producers tend to source their materials from the naive and over enthusiastic. A quick check at most of the bulk private orders outside of the market often shows producers not willing to pay market value for their minerals. New miners looking for guaranteed buyers and a quick sale take the pay cut over the market prices and supply them. While the 'minerals are not free' crowd will happily crow about this as an example of market stupidity, there's good reason for this. Selling millions of units of minerals either for the producer or the miner requires babysitting due to the inevitable 0.01 ISK wars and so fast quick sales are very tempting. The producer turns it around into Ravens or something else and can quickly and easily sell many times the units of minerals they'd sell in the same time frame by selling produced goods. Overall, despite the pay cut per batch of minerals, they actually make more from the greater amount of products moved.

The tip here, is if you are going to get into production, stop sourcing from sell orders. Find a mining corp to get pally with, or find a system where a lot of miners live and stick up buy orders. You'll be surprised at just how much of a discount you can get. Think of buy orders as the 'pleb rate'... work on getting your mats at wholesale rates.


Volume, volume, volume (or the increasing burden of competition)
Another major player for minimal margins is competition and volume. The major trade hubs are well known for being intense and brutal market PvP. You'll often find key items are controlled by a select handful of individuals (wooop-wooop conspiracy alert!) and often you'll find their reach in more than one trade hub. Much like the world outside of New Eden competition between corporations is fierce with margins slashed as they try to price each other out of the market and into oblivion so they can retain sole control of a market... well until the low entry bar (see below) brings along another competitor. In the meanwhile margins can either go up or remain low to discourage that compeition from entering the market ('I'll make how much? bah forget it')

Your choice here is clear, move from the trade hubs and find a smaller trade volume with higher margins, or roll up your sleeves and be prepared to watch your trade orders like a hawk.


Better skills/equipment
The skill tree for T1 production is PE V... and that's it. After that it comes down to how many concurrent jobs you can run. So how is it they're still able to manufacture for lower costs? Well, most serious producers have their own BPO library of well researched prints, automatically eliminating a good portion of that inbuilt 10% waste. A good BPO library also suggests they have a tower and so possibly assembly arrays. These can give a boost on production time over station slots and so once again they can build and assuming demand is high enough go on to sell more product. Again, lowering their margin yet keeping their hourly rate the same.

Edit: booo ate my post, will have to re-write the last chunk.

Callista Omenswarm
Binary Industries Inc
Posted - 2009.09.28 17:59:00 - [46]
 

Internet spaceships is serious bidness
As said on the first page, some people aren't looking for profit or ISK and their payoff comes from the warm fuzzy feeling of producing stuff that others are buying and using.

These people can't be educated, if you have one in your region, move.


We're all doomed!
Wow, this all paints a pretty bleak picture for manufacturers, yet there's so many people doing it, why? Well the answer is that there are still a good many items to make great profits from as well as ways to enchance your profits even from items with small margins (think how your supermarket does it).

It will require research though and the use of your noggin. But that's only fair right, you didn't expect an epic pay day for simply clicking 'install job', did you?

Amoranis
Gallente
Independent Faction
Posted - 2009.09.29 01:44:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Nika Dekaia
Because some people think: the ore I mine myself is free and ha no value. Or: the datacores I farm are free. That way, people set the prices lower than they should, at times even make a loss without knowing it.

Loot drops are a problem for T1 modules on top of that.


never sell stuff for its buy price... make custom sell ordrs. and ull b fine

MightyRhinox
Minmatar
Rhinox Heavy Industries
Twilight Military Industrial Complex Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.29 04:59:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Callista Omenswarm
Internet spaceships is serious bidness
As said on the first page, some people aren't looking for ISK profit; their payoff comes from the warm fuzzy feeling of producing stuff that others are buying and using.




There, I fixed it for you. It's a subtle difference, but an important one for a crowd of people who are terrible confused about how profit in business is actually measured.


Cygwin Gaad
Caldari
The Element Syndicate
Blazing Angels Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.30 01:55:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Callista Omenswarm
Internet spaceships is serious bidness
As said on the first page, some people aren't looking for profit or ISK and their payoff comes from the warm fuzzy feeling of producing stuff that others are buying and using.

These people can't be educated, if you have one in your region, move.


why must they be educated. if theyre playing the game to build stuff and sell it and see their wallet flash then they are getting enjoyment. we all play the game for different reasons. because someone plays it not according to your reasons doesnt mean they need to be re-educated.



Callista Omenswarm
Binary Industries Inc
Posted - 2009.09.30 16:37:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Cygwin Gaad
why must they be educated. if theyre playing the game to build stuff and sell it and see their wallet flash then they are getting enjoyment.



Wasn't arguing they should be. As you point out, people have various motivations and someone who is already producing and NOT keeping fine track of their material costs, time and margins isn't going to have a revelation because someone else decides to give them an ad hoc economics lesson.

Course there's almost two pages of replies in this thread from people who think otherwise...Wink

Seminole Sun
Posted - 2009.10.07 00:12:00 - [51]
 

Not to revive an already dead horse but sometimes the "sell below mineral" group has it right and sometimes they don't. The big difference here is "compression". The manufacturing process "compresses" certain items and it "expands" others.

Example A, Abaddon
An Abaddon with a theoretical perfect BPO requires 177,000m3 worth of minerals. And yet the ship only requires 50,000m3 to transport. So you can fit many, many more into a freighter then the equivalent mineral amounts. Through a prism of "best way to get my minerals to market" this represents a huge advantage. Selling at 5% below market doesn't seem like such a bad idea in this case if we're talking about huge quantities. (for the record, these go for about 3% over mineral cost now... depending on how you calculate)

Example B, Scythe
These actually expand about 35%. So there's no logistical/transport reason to choose Scythe's to build. And yet, they're still going for nearly 15% below the market price. In the past, I've seen Scythe's in Jita that you could have bought and INSTANTLY reprocessed for a profit. The scythe is an aberration here (I've yet to see any other cruiser be like this) and I'd love to hear someone's theory for this (is there some mission chain that gives them as rewards or something??)

The compression of an item is intrinsic to making proper production decisions.

Aurorae Andromedae
Posted - 2009.10.07 11:03:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: DeepFear5
I am trying to get into industry to build items, ammo and tech 2 ships. I have found that some items are way below the price that it takes to invent and build even with L5 skills. So my question is Why are things so cheap? i whould neot be able to make a living with Indy in here even with L5 skills. I dont have all the skills at L5 yes, but I am not building anything yet either. All yr comment will be appreciated if i get some kind of input here.


People don't understand that everything has a value. Minerals that you mine, datacores that you get, everything.

However, buy the cheap stuff and relist it. Or even reprocess and use it in your own production.

Kiva Aharan
Posted - 2009.10.07 14:33:00 - [53]
 

Part of the problem is how you're calculating profit.

Most go under the baseline of buying all of the components, thus how much more you make manufacturing than just selling off the resources you get. On the other hand if you harvest all of your own resources you're still making a big profit. And if you happen to enjoy mining and mission running in order to get your resources then your wallet will still be nice and fat with the lower prices, plus you get to have the fun of building stuff yourself (believe it or not some enjoy that).

Additionally many like to keep things close to the margins to keep the lower-skilled and less wise (in terms of getting good prices/short times for buying/making materials) competitors from being able to compete with them. Remember that the market is PvP.

Plus there's always the subject matter of being able to move your goods. Lower prices means higher turnover. I know of a couple stations where the prices are extra low as best I can tell just to get people to go there and buy stuff. The other approach is to sell at places people are more likely to be already for higher amounts to catch those who don't feel like making a couple jumps to buy ammo.

The good thing is that if you're a good marketeer you can resell their own goods for a higher margin elsewhere, or sometimes in the same station. Lots of folks make some good isk by buying cheap goods one place, moving them a couple jumps and marking them up over 100%.

So all said don't worry so much about the competitors prices...just find better markets, or reconsider how you're making stuff.

Von Jupiter
Posted - 2009.10.07 18:39:00 - [54]
 

Mission drops... Totally kills low quantity t1 manufacturing. T2 on the other hand... Competition.

Otto Durako
Arktech Industrial Complex
Posted - 2009.10.08 09:43:00 - [55]
 

I've seen some good advice given here. The market sucks sometimes, make do, scout it out, and be ready to have to move around.


Also, side note: Dhraken Raal looks like Jean Luc Picard

babyblue
Posted - 2009.10.08 10:24:00 - [56]
 

My very first experience in Eve (in beta 6) was mining a refine of Arkonor (no rats in those days and no alliances in 0.0, in fact no player pirates either!) in my reaper with a basic mining laser. Took hours. When I sold it at the station, I got about 1 isk for it, because in those days the font was hard to read and to be honest it didn't occur to me at the time that people would put up stupid buy orders (or rather, buy orders for stupid people). I mean who could be so unethical? ;) So you know, after the rage, I decided to pay attention to what the market screen was saying. I hope you enjoyed my trip down memory lane.......

People often put things on the market at lower than value prices (I know I have). It's usually because they want the cash ASAP. People are generally rational agents, but you have to consider what they are rationalising about. If you factor in the time it takes to sell something, rather than just pure profit, then selling below value is a rational thing to do, especially if with that cash you get other opportunities to make the ISK you may have missed out on by selling low. When I want to sell at market prices, I have to continually monitor and adjust my orders to take account of other traders. This is what I mean by it taking time and effort to get the best possible price.

Now that does not mean that as a trader, you can do well buy buying low and selling even lower (!). It just means that when goods come to you, however they come, it's rational to sell them low if you need the cash there and then.





Lexander Morinex
Caldari
LDD Investments
Posted - 2009.10.08 15:16:00 - [57]
 

Just be thankful CCP has kindly provided a floor on mineral prices.

Otherwise I suspect the demand is so out of whack with supply that prices would crash on most items.

CCP has also kindly provided a ceiling on mineral prices which can limit your options too.

- Lexander Morinex

Seminole Sun
Posted - 2009.10.08 15:58:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Lexander Morinex
Just be thankful CCP has kindly provided a floor on mineral prices.



The insurance floor is dynamic correct? It moves up and down based on the mineral values in the market. In this way, it functions more as a break against rapid declines then a true floor (hrmm... maybe the US government should look into this!)

Originally by: Lexander Morinex

CCP has also kindly provided a ceiling on mineral prices which can limit your options too.



What's the ceiling mechanic?

Lexander Morinex
Caldari
LDD Investments
Posted - 2009.10.08 16:50:00 - [59]
 

Edited by: Lexander Morinex on 08/10/2009 16:50:59
Edited by: Lexander Morinex on 08/10/2009 16:50:11
Originally by: Seminole Sun

What's the ceiling mechanic?


It is more subtle and almost certainly an unintended side effect.

First, there are T1 drops. Second, there is an a very elastic supply based upon T1 production.

Due to the insurance floor put in place for ships there is a minimum value on any T1 item, either gathered as drops or by production. If the price of the mineral basket drops below the barrier you can immediately produce the goods and make a profit at the floor.

Between these two forces is a tremendous pressure to produce a supply of T1 products. Not all T1 products are in demand. By the rules of supply and demand the price for those T1 product should continue to fall. If the floor was not in place some items almost certainly would.

Now, reprocessing creates the ceiling. If the value of minerals begins to exceed the floor price by too much then reprocessors can simply buy up the excess supply of T1 products and reprocess. They then sell the minerals. This produces an increase in the supply of minerals without any increasing demand for minerals. Now, in theory the demand might increase for T1 production to match the higher price but there are T1 drops to consider. Those are still being added to the market constantly.

So the price of the mineral basket does not have a hard ceiling but will get pushed down by the reprocessors as they arbitrage the difference between the T1 sell prices (which are under pressure to go lower) and the value of the minerals.

The end result is that the mineral basket is under pressure from both a hard floor and a soft ceiling.

- Lexander Morinex

Seminole Sun
Posted - 2009.10.08 17:53:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Lexander Morinex
Edited by: Lexander Morinex on 08/10/2009 16:50:59
Edited by: Lexander Morinex on 08/10/2009 16:50:11
Originally by: Seminole Sun

What's the ceiling mechanic?


It is more subtle and almost certainly an unintended side effect.

First, there are T1 drops. Second, there is an a very elastic supply based upon T1 production.

Due to the insurance floor put in place for ships there is a minimum value on any T1 item, either gathered as drops or by production. If the price of the mineral basket drops below the barrier you can immediately produce the goods and make a profit at the floor.


I'm with you here. If a Dominix has a minimum value of $42mil and it requires 100 times the minerals of module x then implicitly module x has a floor of $420k

Originally by: Lexander Morinex

Between these two forces is a tremendous pressure to produce a supply of T1 products.
...

Now, reprocessing creates the ceiling. If the value of minerals begins to exceed the floor price by too much then reprocessors can simply buy up the excess supply of T1 products and reprocess. They then sell the minerals. This produces an increase in the supply of minerals without any increasing demand for minerals.



I think I understand what you're saying with this, but let me try rephrasing it.

A Dominix has an insured value of $40mil (for the sake of argument) and a 1600mm steel plate miraculously takes exactly 1% of the minerals of each type (again, for the sake of argument). This would indicate that the "floor" for 1600mm steel plates is 400k. If steel plates fell below that it would be to my advantage to buy 100 steel plates and reprocess them and create Dominixs out of them.

Since the supply of steel plates always exceed demand, the steel plates are always on the market at just under their mineral value (3-5%).

When you say ceiling then you're really talking about "stickiness" in prices. If prices were to rise dramatically, there would be a rush through the system to buy up all of those modules that are overflowing the market and reprocess them. This would in turn bring prices down. But ultimately, if it was a sustained increase in demand (say a prolonged war or additions to the player base that were slanted toward PVP) we would eventually burn through those inventories and start seeing true higher prices.

Lastly, am I wrong in thinking that the insured amount of ships is also variable and slides based on mineral prices. I know when you get the policy it's locked in but I swear my first Domi was insured for more than my current. If that's the case then this also provides "stickiness" but not a true floor to prices.


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