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Dzil
Caldari
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
The Fourth District
Posted - 2009.08.26 14:48:00 - [241]
 

Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: Salvo Brunel
You have stated that you won't be asking for repayment of the 75b paid as salary. Have any of those who received salaries offered to repay it?

Yes, some have. I refused their offer.



This is what I'm hearing, do I understand you correctly?

Ebank is in dire straits due to gross mismanagement/negligence of various ebank employees.
Some of those employees would like to return salaries paid to expedite returning ebank's good standing.
You're refusing to serve as the natural medium to allow this to happen?

Redbad
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.08.26 14:49:00 - [242]
 

I get the idea when reading this thread that it is such a chaos in the reporting area that you are making it very easy for loan takers to say:

"You can have your ISK back if I can get my researched BPO's back that Ricdic probably ran of with."

Hope you can turn it around though, good luck McCormack.

Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
Posted - 2009.08.26 14:51:00 - [243]
 

Originally by: Dzil
This is what I'm hearing, do I understand you correctly?

Correct. Go on, ask me to explain why so you can turn around and tell me how my point of view sucks donkey balls.

Kalrand
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.08.26 14:54:00 - [244]
 

Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: Dzil
This is what I'm hearing, do I understand you correctly?

Correct. Go on, ask me to explain why so you can turn around and tell me how my point of view sucks donkey balls.



"Here's some free money for depositors!"

"Oh no. We wouldn't want them getting any of that."

Vilgan i'Lakin
Pirates and Ninjas
Posted - 2009.08.26 15:00:00 - [245]
 

Kind of a bummer for active players that they are getting treated the same as people who dropped their isk into ebank before taking a 1, 2, 3 year or infinite break from eve.

Kalrand
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.08.26 15:08:00 - [246]
 

Originally by: Vilgan i'Lakin
Kind of a bummer for active players that they are getting treated the same as people who dropped their isk into ebank before taking a 1, 2, 3 year or infinite break from eve.


Honestly, when the whole Ricdic thing broke, I thought this would be what would save Ebank. The ginormous amount of zombie capitol stuffed into the bank by inactive accounts.

I honestly think they should see just who's active and wants their isk back. They might not be liquid enough to do it instantly, but I'd put a decent sized bet on that they could match demand by selling assets.

flakeys
The Great cornholio's
Paper Tiger Coalition
Posted - 2009.08.26 15:14:00 - [247]
 

Originally by: soren tores
so glad that after dbank went boom i took all my isk out of ebank as well.. dodged that bullet.


Makes 2 of us , a 3 bille loss i can cope with a 12 bille loss now that would have HURT.


Emywn Vanya
Caldari
The Maverick Navy
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2009.08.26 15:24:00 - [248]
 

Assuming I ever get my money out this is the end of my secondary market dealings.

Theres just no point. Breaking even with all the time spent is just not worth it.

Dzil
Caldari
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
The Fourth District
Posted - 2009.08.26 15:28:00 - [249]
 

Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: Dzil
This is what I'm hearing, do I understand you correctly?

Correct. Go on, ask me to explain why so you can turn around and tell me how my point of view sucks donkey balls.



I'll admit, I've had time to think on this decision, and while it still has no direct impact on my finances, I think you're taking the bank in the wrong direction.

That said, I don't think your point of view sucks donkey balls. I welcome the diversity of skills, experience and ambition that come together in EVE, yours included.

Needless to say, there are many important decisions in ebank's future at this point. To better understand how those decisions were made will become a roadmap to success or failure, that either way I think MD will gain something from.


Azelle Storm'Eye
Posted - 2009.08.26 15:33:00 - [250]
 

Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: Dzil
This is what I'm hearing, do I understand you correctly?

Correct. Go on, ask me to explain why so you can turn around and tell me how my point of view sucks donkey balls.



Well the directors who want to give back the money could always just deposit thir payment to their accounts thus giving it back without you having a say in it :)

Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
Posted - 2009.08.26 15:40:00 - [251]
 

Originally by: Dzil
I'll admit, I've had time to think on this decision, and while it still has no direct impact on my finances, I think you're taking the bank in the wrong direction.

Originally by: Azelle Storm'Eye
Well the directors who want to give back the money could always just deposit thir payment to their accounts thus giving it back without you having a say in it :)

Exactly, and it would be anonymous and therefore not lead to animosity and finger-pointing in future. It also allows those who can't return their salary or shouldn't to avoid being called on it.

Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
Posted - 2009.08.26 15:42:00 - [252]
 

Originally by: Dzil
I'll admit, I've had time to think on this decision, and while it still has no direct impact on
my finances, I think you're taking the bank in the wrong direction.

Care to elaborate further on why and in which direction you would take it?

Dzil
Caldari
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
The Fourth District
Posted - 2009.08.26 15:57:00 - [253]
 

Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: Dzil
I'll admit, I've had time to think on this decision, and while it still has no direct impact on
my finances, I think you're taking the bank in the wrong direction.

Care to elaborate further on why and in which direction you would take it?



I'd give customers an option to liquidate, even if at 30, 50, 20, whatever % aligns with the present solvency of the bank. Ricdic stole some money, and members of the board of directors made some mistakes. Admitted, and time to move on.

If you liquidate those that want out, it has a lot of advantages:
-They get closure, and can move on from trolling your thread
-It means a smaller overall volume of isk to recover. It's easier to earn higher margins on smaller volumes of isk; one of the main reasons Hexxx was interested in shrinking the bank before he resigned.

To me the perception you're creating is attempting to force yourself to be the hero/martyr. You're here to save the day, you're going to make sure every customer gets their isk back fairly no matter what! But I think even if you pull it off, by forcing people down this path you aren't going to earn any credit for yourself or the bank you represent.

Give your customers the opportunity to find their own way out of this fiasco, if they choose. Maintain your commitment to the ones that want to stick with it.

That would be my recommendation. But as I respect it is your time that you choose to pour into this business, which is probably much different than what you originally thought you signed up for, I truly do wish you luck and success in whichever road you go.


DJ Geist
Posted - 2009.08.26 16:13:00 - [254]
 

The decision to freeze up all EBANK accounts while you give yourselves a year to try to make it right is blatantly a measure that places value on the viability of the EBANK institution over the interests on the EBANK customers/depositors. EBANK customers have made it clear that they want other options, including options where they cut their losses and don't wait around for EBANK to try to fix itself.

I suppose you are to be applauded for being "transparent" about the fact that you are doing this, but that just means that transparently doing this is more laudable than sneakily/covertly doing this: don't conflate this to mean that you now have the moral high ground and are justified in doing this. My little nephew is in the process of learning a similar hard lesson: at about 4 years old he now understands that telling the truth is more valuable than lying/covering things up. However he has yet to grasp the more complicated thing that telling the truth/revealing all does not get him completely out of trouble, even if the truth-telling has independent value.

As far as "market elites", serious "MD role players", and the "sanctity" of this forum goes - it's all a joke. A lot of us silenly observe your delusions of grandeur, trying to distinguish yourselves as some kind of megaplayers with a higher calling, and in the end it turns out you're incompetent, crooks, or both. The failure of EBANK, which supposedly was the most well-organized and safeguarded "bank" in eve history, just shows that this game is nothing other than players pew-pewing each other for isk, or trying to convince other players how awesome they are such that isk should be trusted to them. There are zero "market elites" in this game, just people who talk a good talk and know how to make themselves sound reliable with the right kind of language, letterhead, and logos.

From now on until the game has run its course:

- if a character comes up with any system under which they claim your isk should be trusted to them, it is reasonable to assume it is a SCAM

- if a character appeals to his/her knowledge of 'real life' ways of accumulating assets, and uses these 'credentials' to try to secure your isk, it is reasonable to assume it is a SCAM

- if a character appeals to other characters who claim to have faith in the original character's knowledge/abilities/reputation, where the original character is trying to secure your isk, it is reasonable to assume it is a multi-character SCAM

- if a character tries to belittle another character's knowledge/abilities/reputation as a reason for why the supposedly more novice character should hand over any amount of isk, it is reasonable to assume this is a psychological manipulation that is part of a SCAM

- if a character tries to valorize some of their own traits as a reason to hold on to your isk for an even longer period of time ( for example, that they are being forthcoming and 'transparent' with information ), it is reasonable to assume that this character is trying to buy more time as part of a SCAM


This game has zero accountability for its characters (no FDIC for "banks", characters can be resold, etc), and players generally get tired of "grinding" in the game and accumulating isk with the various methods offered by the in-game mechanics. That is why these SCAMS will continue until the game is over.

Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
Posted - 2009.08.26 16:20:00 - [255]
 

Originally by: Dzil
I'd give customers an option to liquidate, even if at 30, 50, 20, whatever % aligns with the present solvency of the bank. Ricdic stole some money, and members of the board of directors made some mistakes. Admitted, and time to move on.

We're going to allow the market to provide that opportunity. As stated before we're working on a plan, which will be presented shortly.

VCBee2888
Posted - 2009.08.26 16:27:00 - [256]
 

I tip my hat to you, this is a really nice scam.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2009.08.26 17:15:00 - [257]
 

Quote:

I tip my hat to you, this is a really nice scam.



Sadly, Ricdic organized the scam, who remained are precise and honest accountants (hopefully).

They delude themselves that giving everything back, ruining their life running for a year after money to return, will make anyone appreciate the effort and eventually trust the bank again.

I don't think so, and with me you see an half dozen of posters saying the same, and Ray & co accurately dodging the observation-

Sadly for them, they can ignore me and the others, and hide their head under 1 foot of sand, but this won't change the result, which is completely not in their hands since when they goofed so irreparabily hard.

MOOstradamus
Posted - 2009.08.26 17:29:00 - [258]
 

Thieving b**tards no matter how you try and spin it.

Oh well another long & draw out scam that enters into EVE folklore.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2009.08.26 17:37:00 - [259]
 

Edited by: Cearain on 26/08/2009 17:37:25
"In early March this year, as has been revealed previously, our then current CEO Ricdic embezzled funds for the purpose of RMT to the amount of 250b ISK. He was immediately dismissed and action was taken against him by CCP. He was also responsible, along with board members, for over-extending credit to a long standing loan customer. This loan, for an overall amount of 275b, was soon defaulted – leaving the bank with little recourse to recover the funds.

A 525b ISK loss should have been easy for a bank with 2 trillion in deposits and a year and a half of profit generation behind it..."

Do you guys really think that? Over 1/4 of your deposits were vulnerable to 2 people saying "Yeah, well I think Ill just keep this money instead of giving it back." Guys here is a clue. In real life you can sue people when they default on their debts and attach assets and accounts ect. In eve you can't.

I'm truly baffled by the stupidity. Well not ebanks stupidity, hey their employees pocketed 75 billion of those deposits, so they probably made out just fine. But those who depositted the money... well....




Block Ukx
Forge Laboratories
Posted - 2009.08.26 17:41:00 - [260]
 

Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: Block Ukx
Ray,
I agree with Varo, EBANK Directors are liable for the missing ISK. EBANK should find a way to pay back its debt to its customers.

Agreed, see the plan as outlined in the OP.



Ray,
Do you still believe Ricdic was just an idiot that got caught in RMT?

Consider the following:
1) Ricdic was involved in the EIB scandal as a “teller”. (Bank scam)
2) EBANK was created by Ricdic. (Another Bank scam)
3) Deposits made to EBANK Ricdic were never audited.
4) EBANK was never audited. (Until you – Ray).


I believe Ricdic had this all planned out, and I wouldn’t be surprised if a large number of the Bank’s account belong to him. Think about it. It would have been very easy for him to fake the accounts, so latter on he still has access to non-existent ISK. You are basically working your aaa… to provide him with a comfortable living.

I don’t understand why you are getting involved with EBANK when most of the people that are responsible for this situation are no longer in EBANK.


Nemi Lethal
Gallente
DarkStar Armada
Posted - 2009.08.26 17:42:00 - [261]
 

Originally by: Mining Bunnz
One way to move forward is to create a series of accounts with various "loss rates", and provide access to those account balances as soon as practical. Obviously, this can't be done until the true position is revealed and everyone just has to wait on that to finalise.

For example:

10% Recovery Account/0% Interest - ISK transferred to this account is immediately available for withdrawl at 10c/$ for full settlement.
30% Recovery Account/0.5% Interest - ISK transferred to this account is available for withdrawl at (60%?) liquidity at 30c/$ for full settlement.
50% Recovery Account/0.75% Interest - ISK transferred to this account is available for withdrawl at (80%?) liquidity at 50c/$ for full settlement.

In addition, you freeze the 3% savings accounts that currently exist and convert them all to standard checking accounts, looking at your balance sheet they are a 7b/mth drain with their additional interest over and above what they'd earn as checking and your long term customers who have these accounts are probably your most tolerant. This single change in this paragraph is nearly 70% of the monthly discrepancy between income/liabilities.

Freeze interest payments for a month on all accounts, give people time to determine how long THEY want to wait for a return by transferring their isk to appropriate accounts, and everything that remains in the "sweep", "checking" or "savings" accounts after that get locked into the plan you presented and can either transfer that isk to the reduced payout accounts when they decide to accept a partial return, or wait until your financial footing is stable.

Further actions to take, make an additional new account, a new sweep account bearing 0% interest, but continue full banking operations with deposited isk going to this account. You wont get many takers, but it really doesn't impose too much of a burden and keeps the core services you provide, over and above the minimal interest you offer, to function.

What these changes allow you to do is very very quickly assess a true position and customer intent and gives you a chance to evolve into a workable bank. You can clean up the balance sheet, write off the liabilities of those customers that dont want to wait and will take the loss immediately for access to isk. The vultures who are otherwise circling to do this themselves dont reap the reward, EBANK does. Those most negative can stuff off right away. Those with faith can show that faith and stay the distance.

It seems an appealing way to clean up the mess you inherited Ray. With transparency throughout the process, you can emerge a slimmer, more focused organisation without forcing all customers, regardless of their feelings, to hang around for 12 months crying into threads.

I'd be happy to discuss thoughts with yourself, Athre or the board further.

PS: In the interests of full disclosure, I am a net BORROWER of isk from ebank and currently retain a near 5b isk deficit across my accounts I believe.


I say you hire this guy right now

Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
Posted - 2009.08.26 17:52:00 - [262]
 

Originally by: Block Ukx
Do you still believe Ricdic was just an idiot that got caught in RMT?

I do. Ricdic is a simpleton.

Originally by: Block Ukx
I don’t understand why you are getting involved with EBANK when most of the people that are responsible for this situation are no longer in EBANK.

I enjoy a challenge.

Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2009.08.26 17:56:00 - [263]
 

Ray,

You are basically desiring to start a solid, transparant and profitable venture, but doing so with a trillion in the red already. While I have no doubt this could be an excellent challenge for you (and perhaps the other directors), I don't believe it will be serving the customer at this point. E-bank's name has suffered some pretty heavy damage too, so trying to save that is pretty pointless as well. Only thing you can save is the fun the directors have from 'being bankers'. You can weigh that against the fun others will have with a portion of their isk returned soon rather than most of it later.

As an aside: financially, freezing accounts for at least a year is a wise decision, since I estimate about 20% of customers will *quit eve* within that year, so you would make plenty isk from that alone. I would at least suggest you work quitting players into your financial projections.

Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
Posted - 2009.08.26 18:00:00 - [264]
 

Originally by: Merdaneth
You can weigh that against the fun others will have with a portion of their isk returned soon rather than most of it later.

Yup, agreed. The board raised these points before the OP was made too. But I want the market to drive it with our oversight. Anyone interested in trading in accounts should contact myself to start formulating proposals.

Originally by: Merdaneth
As an aside: financially, freezing accounts for at least a year is a wise decision, since I estimate about 20% of customers will *quit eve* within that year, so you would make plenty isk from that alone. I would at least suggest you work quitting players into your financial projections.

The only way we can account for players that leave is if they delete their accounts, and even then we'd have to search for them manually in-game.

Ulstan
Posted - 2009.08.26 18:03:00 - [265]
 

Originally by: Galal Dax
Edited by: Galal Dax on 26/08/2009 01:50:50
Originally by: Brock Nelson
Originally by: KaarBaak

Slight topic skew....does anyone know how this is affecting DBank? Can't remember if they're still functioning? If they are, just wondering if this is causing a bank run over there?




You are probably 2 months out of date as DBank folded


Brock, if anyone offers to create an F-Bank - please pod them....




You're a bit late. Fury bank was already created, flourished, then vanished into the ether with billions of investors ISK and no word since.

Kalrand
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.08.26 18:04:00 - [266]
 

Originally by: Ray McCormack

The only way we can account for players that leave is if they delete their accounts, and even then we'd have to search for them manually in-game.



You're joking right?
Flag any account thats seen no activity from the user (logging in to check their account, deposits, etc) in the last six months.

Those people forgot they have an account/left eve.

Free money! Hooray! You're solvent again!

Wengy
Gallente
Posted - 2009.08.26 18:07:00 - [267]
 

Originally by: Nemi Lethal
Originally by: Mining Bunnz
One way to move forward is to create a series of accounts with various "loss rates", and provide access to those account balances as soon as practical. Obviously, this can't be done until the true position is revealed and everyone just has to wait on that to finalise.

For example:

10% Recovery Account/0% Interest - ISK transferred to this account is immediately available for withdrawl at 10c/$ for full settlement.
30% Recovery Account/0.5% Interest - ISK transferred to this account is available for withdrawl at (60%?) liquidity at 30c/$ for full settlement.
50% Recovery Account/0.75% Interest - ISK transferred to this account is available for withdrawl at (80%?) liquidity at 50c/$ for full settlement.

In addition, you freeze the 3% savings accounts that currently exist and convert them all to standard checking accounts, looking at your balance sheet they are a 7b/mth drain with their additional interest over and above what they'd earn as checking and your long term customers who have these accounts are probably your most tolerant. This single change in this paragraph is nearly 70% of the monthly discrepancy between income/liabilities.

Freeze interest payments for a month on all accounts, give people time to determine how long THEY want to wait for a return by transferring their isk to appropriate accounts, and everything that remains in the "sweep", "checking" or "savings" accounts after that get locked into the plan you presented and can either transfer that isk to the reduced payout accounts when they decide to accept a partial return, or wait until your financial footing is stable.

Further actions to take, make an additional new account, a new sweep account bearing 0% interest, but continue full banking operations with deposited isk going to this account. You wont get many takers, but it really doesn't impose too much of a burden and keeps the core services you provide, over and above the minimal interest you offer, to function.

What these changes allow you to do is very very quickly assess a true position and customer intent and gives you a chance to evolve into a workable bank. You can clean up the balance sheet, write off the liabilities of those customers that dont want to wait and will take the loss immediately for access to isk. The vultures who are otherwise circling to do this themselves dont reap the reward, EBANK does. Those most negative can stuff off right away. Those with faith can show that faith and stay the distance.

It seems an appealing way to clean up the mess you inherited Ray. With transparency throughout the process, you can emerge a slimmer, more focused organisation without forcing all customers, regardless of their feelings, to hang around for 12 months crying into threads.

I'd be happy to discuss thoughts with yourself, Athre or the board further.

PS: In the interests of full disclosure, I am a net BORROWER of isk from ebank and currently retain a near 5b isk deficit across my accounts I believe.


I say you hire this guy right now


I second that, this is a plan that makes sense. It's got something for everyone, people get a choice, rather than this forced course of action Ray's proposing. I've been invested in Ebank for a total of 5-days before this happened, I'm stunned that they kept accepting deposits even though they must have known they could never make good on their promises. So by allowing people a choice, you will be giving people like me something to think about, as right now Ray McCormack and everyone else at Ebank, past and present, all smell equally bad to me.

Kalrand
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.08.26 18:07:00 - [268]
 

Originally by: Ulstan


You're a bit late. Fury bank was already created, flourished, then vanished into the ether with billions of investors ISK and no word since.



So GBank really is next, eh?

Block Ukx
Forge Laboratories
Posted - 2009.08.26 18:12:00 - [269]
 

Originally by: Ray McCormack

Originally by: Block Ukx
I don’t understand why you are getting involved with EBANK when most of the people that are responsible for this situation are no longer in EBANK.

I enjoy a challenge.



How long are you planning to stay in EBANK? Previously, you did a great job running BMBE but you left after a few months. I’m concern you will leave EBANK before accounts are repaid. I would prefer you be in charge of liquidating EBANK.

I really think you are better off starting your own Bank, buying off EBANK assets, and liquidating EBANK. Why not try that route?



Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
Posted - 2009.08.26 18:22:00 - [270]
 

Originally by: Block Ukx
How long are you planning to stay in EBANK? Previously, you did a great job running BMBE but you left after a few months. I’m concern you will leave EBANK before accounts are repaid. I would prefer you be in charge of liquidating EBANK.

I ran the BMBE for over a year. I'll stay (less that fateful bus drags me off into the nethers of EVE infamy) until accounts are repaid, at least.

Originally by: Block Ukx
I really think you are better off starting your own Bank, buying off EBANK assets, and liquidating EBANK. Why not try that route?

u mad? Open a bank in this climate? Razz

Let's see where the market takes us with the account purchases, we'll get a good indication of what customers want from that. I've made one large decision this month, I won't make another just yet.


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