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soren tores
Posted - 2009.08.26 09:41:00 - [211]
 

so glad that after dbank went boom i took all my isk out of ebank as well.. dodged that bullet.

Keyser Kahn
Stellar-Parallax Corp
Posted - 2009.08.26 09:58:00 - [212]
 

Sad to see another good idea and service brought low by the unenforceable nature of trust and abuse in a game.

Personally I would rather see EBank written off, dissolved, w/ever than see an attempt at recovery. Chalk it up to experience, get over the tears, learn a harsh eve lesson and move on.

Lets face it in 2 months max it will only be a matter of occasional discussion.

Reputations have been ruined, Athre, Hexx etc and some peoples will come out intact - Ray being about all I can think of.

I only ever had 100m in my ebank account which along with it's interest can be written off, added to the pot for someone elses payback etc., [would my position be the same if it was billions in my account - yes it would - but you will have to trust me on thatCool].

o/

SunGod RA
Endless Destruction
Posted - 2009.08.26 10:14:00 - [213]
 

Originally by: Clair Bear
Here's what I would do. I would spend 400B on buying empire ice. Then invest 100B in producing armageddons and smartbombs to make sure not a single ice miner lives long enough to mine even a single ice cube. Plenty of community minded citizens will volunteer to smartbomb ice miners round the clock for no compensation. Sell the 400B worth of ice for at least 2B to 0.0 dysprosium moon holders a month later and voila! You've fixed both ebank and eve at the same time.


!!!

i'd invest in that! more IPOs like this plz!!

Ishina Fel
Caldari
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2009.08.26 10:51:00 - [214]
 

Rabble Rabble Rabble! We were promised a free pony, but the new guy found out the old guy never bred any ponies to give us! Quick, burn the new guy before he can breed any ponies for us, so we can revel in righteous indignation about not getting our free pony!


Seriously now? Ray's trying to fix it. Shut up and let him. People these days... Rolling Eyes

Saartje Sarel
Posted - 2009.08.26 10:57:00 - [215]
 

Originally by: Keyser Kahn
Sad to see another good idea and service brought low by the unenforceable nature of trust and abuse in a game.




Just another scam mate. Only a cretin gives his money to another player to 'look after'. See it for what it is..

Magnu Stormhawk
Stormhawk Enterprises
Posted - 2009.08.26 11:21:00 - [216]
 

Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: Magnu Stormhawk
I think interest should still continue to accrue, at least at a reduced rate, to be paid once the balance sheet has recovered. As has been stated previously, freezing withdrawals is tantamount to theft but at least if interest was accruing it would give people a small degree of comfort. I also dont think the IPO route should be disregarded, with a focus on a debt for equity swap option.

This is a possibility we can look at once a solid monthly income is established. But currently it just means we need to make 36b every month before even beginning to chip away at the deficit. When we're sure we can continue making a stable monthly income we can look at turning interest back on early at a reduced rate.

An IPO is out of the question. I'm not stupid enough to attempt one under current circumstances.



Noted, its a (very) risky option. But if you can manage to convert half your creditors into equity with a guaranteed dividend of more than the standard rate of interest (if profits allow), then you're solvent again. Most people are going to write off their deposits in any case so why not recognise that and get the balance sheet straight a lot quicker than it will be by waiting 2 years for income to cover the deficit.

Just throwing thoughts around. I understand the course you have chosen.

Leowen
Industrial Giants
Posted - 2009.08.26 11:24:00 - [217]
 

"We are bust, we've messed up bad and have probably done so in all the time we've been running, but it was DEFINITELY someone else's fault, someone who isn't here any more. Not our fault, someone else."

If there are any directors still on the board which was responsible for this complete lack of oversight, they should have the decency to resign. If not they should be pushed. EBANK was either:

- A bank with no clue that it was losing money hand over fist - unforgivable
- A bank that knew it was losing money but did nothing about it - unforgivable
- A bank that was and/or is lying and that was/is scamming its customer base - unforgivable

There should be no way out of this for any members of the board previously in place. Assuming this statement is the final word on EBANK's current status, a fresh board should be installed to try to dig EBANK's way out of this hole. If successful they will gain credibility, if unsuccessful the world will know it wasn't their fault. This is not only the right thing to do, it is the only way EBANK can have a future imo.

Not that I have or ever had any money in there, as I've always said I don't trust others with my money for such a pitiful return.


Saehta
Sigillum Militum Xpisti
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2009.08.26 11:30:00 - [218]
 

I like the whole, now we dont pay interest to bring up our deficit part. Liek others, I can only wait and hope the funds are released. Luckily my investment didnt come anywhere near what many have

Saehta
Sigillum Militum Xpisti
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2009.08.26 11:47:00 - [219]
 

Originally by: The Slagh

That's only cause you and your buds got paid. If you liquidate right now, people lose 70% of their investment. I thought salaries were paid to people who did work, work like stopping stuff like this from happening, which obviously didn't happen.




You dont follow financial markets much, do you

Azelle Storm'Eye
Posted - 2009.08.26 11:55:00 - [220]
 

A small thing struck me in your report over shares.

FIRD is set at 0 ISK value, and I can understand why, but from what I know the corp has been contacting shareholders and offered to buy back shares atm, and they seem to have contacted all the shareholders ( according to one of the BOD ), has Ebank been contacted ?
It isnt much to recoup on that account, but 32bill is afterall 32bill less you need to recoup

Marcus Baltar
Savaran Zhayedan Spah
Posted - 2009.08.26 11:55:00 - [221]
 

Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: Marcus Baltar
Also no mention of Ray's RAYBY Bond on your investment sheet - you know, the one that was confused with AATP. (http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1124586/page/1#23)

You include other investments that completed successfully - consistency as well as transparency. Smile

If you want to be pedantic, we actually remove shares from the listing if we returned them to their owner.
Okay, that was not explained.

Originally by: Ray McCormack
But you're just picking on random discrepancies to make some twisted point. Thanks for the effort in pointing out we're not perfect.

Maybe if you (as in all of EBANK BOD, past and present) had been a little more "pedantic" and had spent some time "picking on random discrepancies" things would not be where they are.

Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: Marcus Baltar
Can you confirm the dates in your posts and reports are correct?


No, I'm not going to get bogged down in semantics. What ever happened occurred when it did, it doesn't make a blind bit of difference to the current situation.
To the present situation the dates do not mean a damn. However, I think the dates do/will matter to determine what and where things went wrong, who was to blame and if that blame is justified.

I am not trying to pick on individuals, just do not see what the point of having a BOD was if they did not know what was going on. I realise a lot is probably Ricdic's fault, but what did the BOD do to earn those salaries?

Just to make you happy Ray, everyone, past and present, that has been involved in EBANK is now tarnished in my eyes.

Now to sit back and see which I get back first - my DBANK or EBANK deposits.

Julian Koll
The Kollektive
Posted - 2009.08.26 12:07:00 - [222]
 

just another question out of curiosity:

Is there anything that indicates a spike in withdrawels prior to the freeze? Say from people 'close' to those who knew about it?

Mme Pinkerton
The pink win
Posted - 2009.08.26 12:07:00 - [223]
 

Originally by: Tesal
2. For those who wish to remain invested in EBank, convert all remaining deposits into an IPO, monitored by a 3rd party or several 3rd parties, and pay them out over the next 12 months AND paying the IPO operator a salary. This will allow you to keep existing isk generating operations going. this will also take most of the administrative difficulties out of EBank, and make life tolerable for you. You could take 6 weeks to figure out a restructuring deal. You can do this by taking the top 10 successful IPO issuers and offer them a deal, with remaining isk, BPO and BPC.


Haven't looked at the EBANK balance sheet as of yet, but to me this line of thought seems like an idea worth considering.

It is commonly known that most ISK-making operations don't scale especially well (both, in terms of profit and required work effort) and those employed by EBANK so far will probably have been selected rather because of low labor-input than because of extremely high profitability (e.g. titan BPOs).

The money bound in current EBANK ventures might generate a much larger profit, if it were granted to several smaller enterprises in the form of buying out IPOs (whose operators might be willing to put in a lot more effort per ISK).
From the point of view held by EBANK, this would ofc increase risk (as EBANK trusts itself), from the point of view held by current EBANK customers it could very well reduce risk, as in case of an EBANK shutdown, these loans/shares could be transferred to a holding company representing EBANK's customer base.

IMHO EBANK would be well advised to seriously consider liquidating some of the current business ventures and using the freed money to aggressively invest in smaller enterprises.

Washell Olivaw
Posted - 2009.08.26 13:23:00 - [224]
 

Originally by: Ray McCormack
In early March this year, as has been revealed previously, our then current CEO Ricdic embezzled funds for the purpose of RMT to the amount of 250b ISK. He was immediately dismissed and action was taken against him by CCP.


Fix this. You're trying to rebuild trust while having misleading statements in your communications. CCP did not take action against Ricdic for embezzlement. CCP took action because he was selling ISK. Any current and future director can embezzle to his/hers heart's content without fearing CCP intervention, as long as they don't sell the proceeds.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2009.08.26 13:27:00 - [225]
 

Quote:

I'm sorry that you feel like you had no voice in the decision. Are you actually a customer? The people who hold shares (not own hold) are the Directors. Please take another look at the original OP. It was not an easy decision but it is one that will eventually regain all the isk our customers have entrusted to us.



Athre, don't you see you are doing a GREAT disservice to yourself and the community?

Why do you think I am so miffed at you guys ATM, even if I don't have but 0.01 ISK at your bank?

Because it's tragically wrong to feel "done" at "just" giving back the money.


So, you give people back their billion. Whooo hoo!


And now what? You killed your future and their most trusted service. You won't serve the community any more. You will be OVER.

This is what I find VERY wrong, because the actual money is important but LESS important than the feeling of trust, the "something great and stable and safe in EvE exists" emotion.

You see, when a great rockstar dies, his myth remains and his memory becomes almost immortal for their fan.

You managed not to die but killed your myth. This is worse than death.


Why didn't you recapitalize? Or start "personal" IPOs? Or a sort of chapter 11 return to positive balance public plan? ANYTHING not to kill your years of service?

Brian Kwok
Posted - 2009.08.26 13:28:00 - [226]
 

Originally by: Washell Olivaw
Originally by: Ray McCormack
In early March this year, as has been revealed previously, our then current CEO Ricdic embezzled funds for the purpose of RMT to the amount of 250b ISK. He was immediately dismissed and action was taken against him by CCP.


Fix this. You're trying to rebuild trust while having misleading statements in your communications. CCP did not take action against Ricdic for embezzlement. CCP took action because he was selling ISK. Any current and future director can embezzle to his/hers heart's content without fearing CCP intervention, as long as they don't sell the proceeds.


Nothing to fix except for your ability to read and understand information. Isn't it more than obvious that any action taken by CCP was in response to the RMT, which Ray mentioned in that quote. It might be your 5th grade reading level that's keeping you from making the connection.

Kazzac Elentria
Posted - 2009.08.26 13:33:00 - [227]
 

Ray, will you bring the discussion of possible equity swaps to the BoD.

I have clients that are more than willing to participate to free capital up and trust myself and others to be the purchasers of said equity.

Kalrand
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.08.26 13:34:00 - [228]
 

Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
Offering to purchase accounts at reduced value to allow immediate liquidity for certain customers is actually a novel idea.

Ebank loses nothing, and the seller gets their isk immediately and the purchaser stands to make out like a mint.

I'd likely throw 400b easy into such a credit default swap.


I think you don't know what a credit default swap is.

Kazzac Elentria
Posted - 2009.08.26 13:37:00 - [229]
 

Edited by: Kazzac Elentria on 26/08/2009 13:37:03
Originally by: Kalrand


I think you don't know what a credit default swap is.


Well it technically wouldn't be a CDS, but its about as close as we can call it given the situation.

..closer to creditor selling off an account to a collection agency only just not wrapped up into a security product. But the point still stands.

*edited cause I can't speak right this morning

Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
Posted - 2009.08.26 13:37:00 - [230]
 

Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
Ray, will you bring the discussion of possible equity swaps to the BoD.

I have clients that are more than willing to participate to free capital up and trust myself and others to be the purchasers of said equity.

It's already being discussed and a system formulated.

Dzil
Caldari
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
The Fourth District
Posted - 2009.08.26 13:48:00 - [231]
 

Originally by: Brock Nelson
Just couple of questions;

1. If a business going under, the first step would be to eliminate liabilities. First thing that came to mind with wiping out the 75b owing to employee salaries. Was that option considered? I can imagine that some people would outright reject that.

2. It's known that EBank owns shares of public corporation including Flux Technologies, does EBank plan to hold onto those shares or sell them off at higher than purchase price?

3. Relating to #2, because you guys froze all accounts; customers can't retrieve their isk or earn interest. What's to stop other corporation whose shares are owned by EBank from sending dividends to EBank? I don't have any investment in EBank but if I did, my line of thought would probably be like this "If I can't get my money, why should I send these guys money?"

Good luck


You bring a great point here, Brock. Whatever their intentions might be, E-bank has effectively stolen a trillion isk, with a promise of "we'll pay it back".

I would hold you and any other companies with collateral, securities or other assets to seize 100% blameless to claim or at least freeze those assets against this default, doing no worse than a trusted third party reclaiming loan collateral on a scam or bust IPO/bond.

Brian Kwok
Posted - 2009.08.26 13:57:00 - [232]
 

Originally by: Dzil
[
You bring a great point here, Brock. Whatever their intentions might be, E-bank has effectively stolen a trillion isk, with a promise of "we'll pay it back".

I would hold you and any other companies with collateral, securities or other assets to seize 100% blameless to claim or at least freeze those assets against this default, doing no worse than a trusted third party reclaiming loan collateral on a scam or bust IPO/bond.


Isn't that exactly what Tornsoul does with BMBE? Sure he pays 1% or much less per month for the gobs of isk he has and the investors don't get a say in anything. Would it make you and others feel better if ebank were to completly change to an IPO right now, start paying out less than 1% interest and allow you to sell your "ebank shares" for less than the supposed value? This is a serious questions btw, I'm not trying to be a smartass but if you are ok with that then they should just turn into a BMBE #2 and all will be well again. Maybe this is something they should consider.

Washell Olivaw
Posted - 2009.08.26 13:57:00 - [233]
 

Originally by: Brian Kwok
Nothing to fix except for your ability to read and understand information. Isn't it more than obvious that any action taken by CCP was in response to the RMT, which Ray mentioned in that quote. It might be your 5th grade reading level that's keeping you from making the connection.


It's obvious if you assume a working level knowledge of EVE, EBank, scams, RMT and CCP. If I turn those off I can easily read that CCP took action against him for embezzlement and RMT. Given that this thread is linked from a news post at the EVE login screen, I feel it's an incorrect assumption to make.

Deovina
Posted - 2009.08.26 13:57:00 - [234]
 

Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
Ray, will you bring the discussion of possible equity swaps to the BoD.

I have clients that are more than willing to participate to free capital up and trust myself and others to be the purchasers of said equity.

It's already being discussed and a system formulated.



I think the best idea would be auctioning of the debt with a minimum of 10% or 15% of the face value. Giving all willing depositors the best deal they can get at the moment. With perhaps a knew auction every 2 or 4 weeks.

Salvo Brunel
Outbreak.
Posted - 2009.08.26 14:02:00 - [235]
 

Edited by: Salvo Brunel on 26/08/2009 14:19:59
Ray,
You have stated that you won't be asking for repayment of the 75b paid as salary. Have any of those who received salaries offered to repay it? People paid to process withdrawals or write code may be blameless, but everyone with an oversight role seems to have utterly failed.

I think the best policy is to liquidate. At the moment you are saying that you will trade with the deposits to get them back to 100% of liabilities. People have good reason to be sceptical that EBank can do a better job of this than they could themsleves.

Clearly you should be allowed a grace period to try to understand the exact details of the deficit. Wouldn't it be possible to allow people to withdraw say, 20% of their funds now. Then as the liquidation continues thay can chose to accept a final payout of 30-60% or hold on for full re-opening. As has been mentioned before I think you might end up with quite a few unclaimed / inactive accounts. This could mean you get back to effective solvency quicker than you think.

Finally, I really appreciate your honesty and openness.

Kazzac Elentria
Posted - 2009.08.26 14:04:00 - [236]
 

Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
Ray, will you bring the discussion of possible equity swaps to the BoD.

I have clients that are more than willing to participate to free capital up and trust myself and others to be the purchasers of said equity.

It's already being discussed and a system formulated.



I'd suggest wrapping up individual accounts into tiers, most people who are going to take advantage of the face value will more than likely be your smaller depositors. Then auctioning those securities off to the highest bidder with the caveat that the purchasers can negotiate or resell them at a later date.

Mining Bunnz
Equatorial Industires
Posted - 2009.08.26 14:21:00 - [237]
 

One way to move forward is to create a series of accounts with various "loss rates", and provide access to those account balances as soon as practical. Obviously, this can't be done until the true position is revealed and everyone just has to wait on that to finalise.

For example:

10% Recovery Account/0% Interest - ISK transferred to this account is immediately available for withdrawl at 10c/$ for full settlement.
30% Recovery Account/0.5% Interest - ISK transferred to this account is available for withdrawl at (60%?) liquidity at 30c/$ for full settlement.
50% Recovery Account/0.75% Interest - ISK transferred to this account is available for withdrawl at (80%?) liquidity at 50c/$ for full settlement.

In addition, you freeze the 3% savings accounts that currently exist and convert them all to standard checking accounts, looking at your balance sheet they are a 7b/mth drain with their additional interest over and above what they'd earn as checking and your long term customers who have these accounts are probably your most tolerant. This single change in this paragraph is nearly 70% of the monthly discrepancy between income/liabilities.

Freeze interest payments for a month on all accounts, give people time to determine how long THEY want to wait for a return by transferring their isk to appropriate accounts, and everything that remains in the "sweep", "checking" or "savings" accounts after that get locked into the plan you presented and can either transfer that isk to the reduced payout accounts when they decide to accept a partial return, or wait until your financial footing is stable.

Further actions to take, make an additional new account, a new sweep account bearing 0% interest, but continue full banking operations with deposited isk going to this account. You wont get many takers, but it really doesn't impose too much of a burden and keeps the core services you provide, over and above the minimal interest you offer, to function.

What these changes allow you to do is very very quickly assess a true position and customer intent and gives you a chance to evolve into a workable bank. You can clean up the balance sheet, write off the liabilities of those customers that dont want to wait and will take the loss immediately for access to isk. The vultures who are otherwise circling to do this themselves dont reap the reward, EBANK does. Those most negative can stuff off right away. Those with faith can show that faith and stay the distance.

It seems an appealing way to clean up the mess you inherited Ray. With transparency throughout the process, you can emerge a slimmer, more focused organisation without forcing all customers, regardless of their feelings, to hang around for 12 months crying into threads.

I'd be happy to discuss thoughts with yourself, Athre or the board further.

PS: In the interests of full disclosure, I am a net BORROWER of isk from ebank and currently retain a near 5b isk deficit across my accounts I believe.

Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
Posted - 2009.08.26 14:27:00 - [238]
 

Originally by: Salvo Brunel
You have stated that you won't be asking for repayment of the 75b paid as salary. Have any of those who received salaries offered to repay it?

Yes, some have. I refused their offer.

Kalrand
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.08.26 14:40:00 - [239]
 

Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
Edited by: Kazzac Elentria on 26/08/2009 13:37:03
Originally by: Kalrand


I think you don't know what a credit default swap is.


Well it technically wouldn't be a CDS, but its about as close as we can call it given the situation.

..closer to creditor selling off an account to a collection agency only just not wrapped up into a security product. But the point still stands.

*edited cause I can't speak right this morning


"Factoring" is what you were looking for here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factoring_(finance)

Kazzac Elentria
Posted - 2009.08.26 14:47:00 - [240]
 

Originally by: Kalrand

"Factoring" is what you were looking for here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factoring_(finance)



I didn't want to call it that, since you'd be hard pressed to call a savings account, accounts receivable.

Though I guess though since they both go on the books as liabilities


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