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Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
Posted - 2009.08.26 05:31:00 - [181]
 

Originally by: Jadun
I would like to see all past and present Directors post in this thread. Please give us a headsup why they think that they deserved to be on the payroll and get Salaries.

Not going to happen. Want a specific response regarding an aspect of the bank either myself, Hexxx or Athre can't answer? We'll get it for you.

Athre
Minmatar
The Higher Standard
Posted - 2009.08.26 05:31:00 - [182]
 

species2143 - Thank you for your concerns.

EBANK has no worries regarding Titans4U flooding the market. There is actually room for us both and as shown it takes quite a bit to buy Titan BPO's. Bobby's doing quite a lot of work up front.

I'm sorry that you feel like you had no voice in the decision. Are you actually a customer? The people who hold shares (not own hold) are the Directors. Please take another look at the original OP. It was not an easy decision but it is one that will eventually regain all the isk our customers have entrusted to us. It also gives a way of making it so that one day we WILL be able to turn on interest.

You ask that we consider your perspective and we have. Now consider mine. A teller working withdrawals, having to check every single one for potential contamination or misdoing and then processing them. Having people complain and whine that the withdrawals are not being done fast enough. Then consider that this is a game and while I dont mind doing menial repetitive tasks, I do not appreciate it when people insist my time belongs to them. It doesnt. I do feel a duty to our customers and to that end I have been a strong voice of the 48 hour SLA.

Have I missed the deadline a time or two in the year I've been with EBANK? Yes. Have I logged in to process transactions when I really did not feel like it? Yes. Why you may ask? Duty and belief in the entity that is EBANK. Consider that when I asked about Profit and Loss I was waved off and assured that things were fine. I can not tell you how thrilled I was to see a Balance Sheet as one of Ray's first actions.

All your hard feelings are understandable. Please also give us the courtesy of showing you we can make this work eventually.

Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
Posted - 2009.08.26 05:33:00 - [183]
 

Originally by: Astaria Pyreto
Might help if they allowed people to talk in the channel.

The ingame channel is broken, we have a petition in but only expect it to be fixed during downtime.

SloMoJoe
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.08.26 05:36:00 - [184]
 

Wow I though Jihad was totally on top of the scam markes. My hats off to EBANK you goon sirs have my adoration and respect.

The Slagh
Posted - 2009.08.26 05:37:00 - [185]
 

Edited by: The Slagh on 26/08/2009 05:40:01

Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: Brock Nelson
1. If a business going under, the first step would be to eliminate liabilities. First thing that came to mind with wiping out the 75b owing to employee salaries. Was that option considered? I can imagine that some people would outright reject that.

It's not owing, it's what was paid. And I'm not asking for it back.




That's only cause you and your buds got paid. If you liquidate right now, people lose 70% of their investment. I thought salaries were paid to people who did work, work like stopping stuff like this from happening, which obviously didn't happen.

Also, inb4 disgruntled customer. I have never invested any isk with EBANK.


Athre
Minmatar
The Higher Standard
Posted - 2009.08.26 05:39:00 - [186]
 

Originally by: Astaria Pyreto
Might help if they allowed people to talk in the channel.


We have 2 petitions that were originally made as "stuck" but placed in the UI queue. We are hopeful that the channel will reset at down time. I'm not sure what exactly I did wrong when attempting to update the MOTD with this thread and the https of the news page on EBANK's web site.

Yes I said it :( I broke the channel

sitar seaton
Posted - 2009.08.26 05:40:00 - [187]
 

In the plan it says that employees will work for free now but will be back-paid in the future. Why is this not being done for depositors also? Accrue interest and pay it once things are turned around.

In addition, this thread should be moved to C&P since 'freezing' is just a nicer way of saying stealing.

Steel Wraith
Tristar Enterprises
Posted - 2009.08.26 05:42:00 - [188]
 

Suggestions:

1. Determine just where the deficit stands. For this example say it is determined to be around 70%.

2. Allow customers the option of withdrawing, paying back 30%. Eliminate the 70% deficit associated with their account.

3. Continue working towards restoring the remaining accounts to 100/98% as you've described in the OP.

If you continue with the account freeze decision I believe you'll do irreparable damage to current and future eve banking.

FinancialDragon
Posted - 2009.08.26 05:48:00 - [189]
 

I just want to say, keep up the hard work Ebank, hope you get back on your feet as soon as possible.

And Herschel's idea has some great promise in my eyes, possible market opportunity ;p -

Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto

Current EBank account holder needs money now, sells locked isk for free isk at a serious loss. Buyer gets ownership of locked isk, and makes a bundle if EBank ever opens its doors for withdrawals again. And if you are allowing internal transfers of isk, as you indicated above, this shouldn't be a problem - any existing depositor can offer this service trivially, without even really needing your help.


Ji Sama
Caldari
Tash-Murkon Prime Industries
Posted - 2009.08.26 05:51:00 - [190]
 

Originally by: Varo Jan
So, let me get this right...

Ebank never had basic controls.
Ebank never had simple, complete, regular financial statements.
Ricdic does a runner, but Ebank still doesn´t know for sure how much he embezzled.
Neither the past Chairman, nor the directors admitted to gross negligence or offered to resign.
Ebank is technically insolvent. The size of the deficit is still unknown.
The bank has defaulted by not permitting withdrawals. Interest accruals are suspended. The bank hopes to restart normal operations in a year or so.

Is that about it?

Well, there is a very simple solution. It´s based on the principle of "The buck stops here."

Ebank is not a public corporation, therefore the owners and directors have unlimited liability.

That makes the directors personally, jointly and severally liable for the full outstanding debt. All account holders should be reimbursed in full from the personal fortunes of the directors. In fairness, that should exclude Ray and anybody appointed after him. It should definitely include past directors such as Hexxx, La Vista and others.

Not very palatable, directors, is it? Well, tough. Time to pay the piper.


you make me proud!

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2009.08.26 05:57:00 - [191]
 

Originally by: FinancialDragon
I just want to say, keep up the hard work Ebank, hope you get back on your feet as soon as possible.

And Herschel's idea has some great promise in my eyes, possible market opportunity ;p -

Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto

Current EBank account holder needs money now, sells locked isk for free isk at a serious loss. Buyer gets ownership of locked isk, and makes a bundle if EBank ever opens its doors for withdrawals again. And if you are allowing internal transfers of isk, as you indicated above, this shouldn't be a problem - any existing depositor can offer this service trivially, without even really needing your help.



Not my idea, and like three people are already on it(I was especially amused by the guy posting an auction for Eve isk, denominated in EBank isk), but thanks anyways Wink

Etien Aldragoran
Legitimate Corporation
Posted - 2009.08.26 05:59:00 - [192]
 

Hey guys, we've lost ****loads of money. Just wait a year and we'll get it back.

Well, at least you've opened up people's minds with hope that you didn't really just run off with their ISK.

Rie Takahashi
Posted - 2009.08.26 06:00:00 - [193]
 

Originally by: Frug
Edited by: Frug on 25/08/2009 21:12:31

Just let all the people whining about how this is 'tantamount to theft' take 50% of their deposits back,



I would be happy with nothing less than 100% of the money that I put into EBANK, thank you very much. Where do you get this 50% figure from? Idiot.

Professor Leech
Transmetropolitan
Posted - 2009.08.26 06:15:00 - [194]
 

Hey look at this quote from 2008 discussing how ebank wouldn't be the first trillion isk scam. Customers will never feel the impact.

Originally by: SencneS
If you're looking for EBANK to be the first then you're looking in the wrong direction. There is no way Ricdic could run off with One Trillion ISK. Let alone a select half of EBANK's Staff running off with One Trillion.

It's just not setup that way, could a scam happen, yes, but not for as much as you'd expect. Any one of EBANK's Staff or Directors could run off with what they have. Our Tellers, maybe 20bil once. Ricdic maybe a hundred billion but then again he is the center point for deposits for distribution so there is elevated risk there.

I think Possible Future Scam is incorrect or at least too broad. I have no problem with people identifying risk and making those comments public. In fact it actually fuels us to find some way to prevent that from happening.

Under the current operation of EBANK, I think I can speak this for all of EBANK's Staff and Directors in saying, If someone was to run off with a fraction of EBANK's ISK or Assets, it would not be the public getting scammed. It would indeed be EBANK being scammed.

The remaining staff and directors would do anything possible to recover the loss so our account holders would not feel the impact.


Mike Takumi
Caldari
hirr
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.08.26 06:24:00 - [195]
 

I've known Ray for a while, he's inherited a bit of a cluster**** thanks to Ric, but he will do the best he can to get this back on track and restore everyone's trust. Ray's one of the few people I know that is kind enough and trustworthy enough to make this a legitimate piece of eve again.

Good Luck Ray, I believe in you Very Happy

Gramtar
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.08.26 06:24:00 - [196]
 

In what way was this action precipitated by the seizure of another ebank?

Quote:
ebank, Atlanta, Georgia, was closed today by the Office of Thrift Supervision, which appointed the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) as receiver. To protect the depositors, the FDIC entered into a purchase and assumption agreement with Stearns Bank, National Association, St. Cloud, Minnesota, to assume all of the deposits of ebank...

As of July 10, 2009, ebank had total assets of $143 million and total deposits of approximately $130 million. In addition to assuming all of the deposits of the failed bank, Stearns Bank, N.A. agreed to purchase essentially all of the failed bank's assets...

The FDIC estimates that the cost to the Deposit Insurance Fund (DIF) will be $63 million.


http://www.fdic.gov/news/news/press/2009/pr09147.html

F90OEX
F9X
Posted - 2009.08.26 07:18:00 - [197]
 

Anyone who has there Isk tied up in Evebank and that has a loan from myself (50-100bil), I will work with you, so you do not have to worry about losing your assets.


I do not know Ray personally but I trust he will work it out.



Super Whopper
I can Has Cheeseburger
Posted - 2009.08.26 07:29:00 - [198]
 

It's a shame to see the banks in this game all go the same way: scam.

This has proven to me that banks simply can't be trusted. I, fortunately, didn't lose any money because I withdrew everything I had the day before the bank closed and I will not invest in another bank. I'd rather sit and stare at my money going to waste in my wallet than get robbed.

testirania
Posted - 2009.08.26 07:46:00 - [199]
 

Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: Block Ukx
Ray,
I agree with Varo, EBANK Directors are liable for the missing ISK. EBANK should find a way to pay back its debt to its customers.

Agreed, see the plan as outlined in the OP.



Actually Ray what that means is that the board have to cough up those 1.2 trillion ISK that are missing right now if all the customers decide to withdraw their ISK......

Frenden Dax
Dax Acquisitions
Posted - 2009.08.26 07:57:00 - [200]
 

Originally by: testirania
Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: Block Ukx
Ray,
I agree with Varo, EBANK Directors are liable for the missing ISK. EBANK should find a way to pay back its debt to its customers.

Agreed, see the plan as outlined in the OP.



Actually Ray what that means is that the board have to cough up those 1.2 trillion ISK that are missing right now if all the customers decide to withdraw their ISK......


Have to? They don't have to do anything. The only thing binding staff members to EBANK now is their personal loyalty to the organization and the concept of a functional player-run bank.

I for one am disturbed to find that EBANK was this deeply underwater and no one knew that it was the case. While I'm not certain that a decision to hold depositors' isk hostage is the correct one, it will at least stave off a run on the bank. A year is a horrifyingly long time to wait for withdrawals to come back online, but at least at the end of it Ray and the EBANK staff anticipate being able to provide 100% withdrawals. Hats off to them for making the effort, when it would have been easier to either disappear with the money or perform a firesale liquidation of assets.

Alex555
Posted - 2009.08.26 08:40:00 - [201]
 

Try to raise some capital selling discounted bonds. Shares do not excite me personally.
Try to enter some ventures not as a loan provider but as a partner.
It seems that financial services in eve will not be any profitable in the foreseeable future, thus ya'll should think of something else in order to fulfill all isk claims.
As for withdrawals freezing - it is quite normal, but on the other hand u have to freeze all salary payments and other payments that will not generate profits. That would be fair.
To conclude, I think that it is possible to bring eve bank back to business, but without losses it will not be possible to make.
And the last thing, in country where I live it was a case when a big bank had liquidity problems, so the solution they had found was brilliant. The owners of the bank put their personal money generated from other sources into the system. The bank is working now. There are owners of eve bank. They could do the same. Or maybe some additional shares could be issued. But I wonder what discount should be.

Marcus Baltar
Savaran Zhayedan Spah
Posted - 2009.08.26 08:45:00 - [202]
 

Can you confirm the dates in your posts and reports are correct?

I thought the big 275 billion ISK default happened around two months before PP's post (could match your date).

Ricdic's theft and RMT happened about 2 DAYS before the above post (no match).

What happened to the "Total Loan Interest Earned: 394,065,215,151.50" and "Commission and Fees Earned: 4,218,511,329.63" from your own statistic page? That also adds another 20 billion in "lost" deposit interest payments too.

Plus the 157 billion in potential "lost" loans buried in your figures too.

Marcus Baltar
Savaran Zhayedan Spah
Posted - 2009.08.26 08:51:00 - [203]
 

Also no mention of Ray's RAYBY Bond on your investment sheet - you know, the one that was confused with AATP. (http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1124586/page/1#23)

You include other investments that completed successfully - consistency as well as transparency. Smile

Mystic darkangel
Posted - 2009.08.26 09:05:00 - [204]
 

because of a couple of people messing it up we "honest" people can not even touch our OWN isk anymore. I think its stupid that our funds get frozen and intrest get taken away!!! So does that mean the salaries stop to? and all the other cost you all make every month??? Probably not. As soon as we can we taking out our isk. Another eve scam has been born!!!!

Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
Posted - 2009.08.26 09:12:00 - [205]
 

Originally by: Marcus Baltar
Also no mention of Ray's RAYBY Bond on your investment sheet - you know, the one that was confused with AATP. (http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1124586/page/1#23)

You include other investments that completed successfully - consistency as well as transparency. Smile

If you want to be pedantic, we actually remove shares from the listing if we returned them to their owner. But you're just picking on random discrepancies to make some twisted point. Thanks for the effort in pointing out we're not perfect.

Magnu Stormhawk
Stormhawk Enterprises
Posted - 2009.08.26 09:13:00 - [206]
 

I've been contemplating opening an ebank account recently. Think i'll stick it under the mattress instead...

I simply cannot believe that the bank has been operated without frequent detailed financial reporting. I would have expected this to underpin the entire function of the business. And uncollateralised loans? Jesus Christ what have you been doing? At least in RL uncollateralised loans arent completely unsafe when you can kick someones door down and take their TV.

Having said that, I think Ray and the Board's approach to a resolution is the only viable solution. Liquidation now would be a mess. Realisable value of the assets would be diminished in a fire sale and more defaults are likely to occur when the debtors know the bank is screwed. If a choice was offered to depositors of what to do with their currently recoverably ISK then some people would choose to pull it out and the bank wouldnt be able to offer the long term solution that it has come up with, which ultimately will get everyone their money back eventually.

I think interest should still continue to accrue, at least at a reduced rate, to be paid once the balance sheet has recovered. As has been stated previously, freezing withdrawals is tantamount to theft but at least if interest was accruing it would give people a small degree of comfort. I also dont think the IPO route should be disregarded, with a focus on a debt for equity swap option.

Good luck

Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
Posted - 2009.08.26 09:14:00 - [207]
 

Originally by: testirania
Actually Ray what that means is that the board have to cough up those 1.2 trillion ISK that are missing right now if all the customers decide to withdraw their ISK......

Thanks, but I got that point. I however live in the real world, not some fantasy universe where everyone walks around with trillions of ISK just in case their fellow bank employee scams. This is the plan for the directorship to recover the ISK.

Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
Posted - 2009.08.26 09:16:00 - [208]
 

Originally by: Marcus Baltar
Can you confirm the dates in your posts and reports are correct?

No, I'm not going to get bogged down in semantics. What ever happened occurred when it did, it doesn't make a blind bit of difference to the current situation.

Kuolematon
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
Posted - 2009.08.26 09:23:00 - [209]
 

Posting in epic thread! I almost put 20bil in EBANK Shocked

Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
Posted - 2009.08.26 09:25:00 - [210]
 

Originally by: Magnu Stormhawk
I think interest should still continue to accrue, at least at a reduced rate, to be paid once the balance sheet has recovered. As has been stated previously, freezing withdrawals is tantamount to theft but at least if interest was accruing it would give people a small degree of comfort. I also dont think the IPO route should be disregarded, with a focus on a debt for equity swap option.

This is a possibility we can look at once a solid monthly income is established. But currently it just means we need to make 36b every month before even beginning to chip away at the deficit. When we're sure we can continue making a stable monthly income we can look at turning interest back on early at a reduced rate.

An IPO is out of the question. I'm not stupid enough to attempt one under current circumstances.


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