open All Channels
seplocked Market Discussions
blankseplocked Next announcement due Oct 15 - Nov 1, wait patiently or whine in here.
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: first : previous : ... 8 9 10 11 [12] 13 14 15 16 ... : last (42)

Author Topic

cosmoray
Perkone
Posted - 2009.08.27 00:45:00 - [331]
 

Originally by: Rellik B00n
business as usual tbh, and based on my reply in this thread I demand to be included in the "MD elitelist 2009."

ITS INTERNET MONEY YOU FOOLS!!!


If there ever was an elite, 80%+ have all been ionvolved with SCAMS or business failures in the last few months. Any who were ever on original EBANK board are now pretty much dead on here.

Death to the MD elite, time for the little man!!!!!

Brock Nelson
Posted - 2009.08.27 00:47:00 - [332]
 

Aren't you an MD Elite?

Betty Rhage
Hero Capital Bank
Posted - 2009.08.27 01:06:00 - [333]
 

Originally by: Renarri
Originally by: Betty Rhage
I have a lot of inside data on the operations of evebank. A lot of the data, if made public, would totally destroy the credibility of many if not most of the people involved, including many "investors".

I want the money owed to me, or I will make this very secret information very very public.


How about destroying one of them to show the rest that your serious and it would make a lot of us feel better too.


If I don't get a response, sure.

cosmoray
Perkone
Posted - 2009.08.27 01:16:00 - [334]
 

Originally by: Brock Nelson
Aren't you an MD Elite?



if I am its not by choice.

I just speak my mind, and run my business for my investors

Kalrand
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.08.27 01:17:00 - [335]
 

Originally by: cosmoray


If there ever was an elite, 80%+ have all been ionvolved with SCAMS or business failures in the last few months. Any who were ever on original EBANK board are now pretty much dead on here.

Death to the MD elite, time for the little man!!!!!



Whats hilarious to me is now its the three Goons that hang out in here that are about the only serious market people that haven't run off with truck loads of their investors' isk recently.

Jin Nib
Resplendent Knives
Posted - 2009.08.27 01:34:00 - [336]
 

Edited by: Jin Nib on 27/08/2009 01:34:20
Originally by: Kalrand
Originally by: cosmoray


If there ever was an elite, 80%+ have all been ionvolved with SCAMS or business failures in the last few months. Any who were ever on original EBANK board are now pretty much dead on here.

Death to the MD elite, time for the little man!!!!!



Whats hilarious to me is now its the three Goons that hang out in here that are about the only serious market people that haven't run off with truck loads of their investors' isk recently.
Take your time... Razz

Tesal
Posted - 2009.08.27 02:14:00 - [337]
 

Originally by: cosmoray
Originally by: Rellik B00n
business as usual tbh, and based on my reply in this thread I demand to be included in the "MD elitelist 2009."

ITS INTERNET MONEY YOU FOOLS!!!


If there ever was an elite, 80%+ have all been ionvolved with SCAMS or business failures in the last few months. Any who were ever on original EBANK board are now pretty much dead on here.

Death to the MD elite, time for the little man!!!!!


Why stop at MD, join me and we can destroy all of EvE!

Vilgan i'Lakin
Pirates and Ninjas
Posted - 2009.08.27 02:38:00 - [338]
 

I don't get what advantage there is in trying to get back to even before paying everyone off. Okay, lets say you DO bust your ass for a year and pay everyone back. What will happen? EBank's reputation will still suck. Maybe people will breathe a sigh of relief of YAY I FINALLY GET MY MONEY. Maybe. Those who are still playing at that point anyway. Nobody is going to think great things about a crew who accomplishes.... returning exactly what was invested a year later.

It seems like Ebank leadership might finally not suck. Please use this time to liquidate stuff in an organized fashion over the next few months, figure out who the inactives are, and pay us back 70% or whatever it comes out to.

Crovax Secundus
Muff Divers
Posted - 2009.08.27 02:45:00 - [339]
 

Originally by: Betty Rhage
Originally by: Renarri
Originally by: Betty Rhage
I have a lot of inside data on the operations of evebank. A lot of the data, if made public, would totally destroy the credibility of many if not most of the people involved, including many "investors".

I want the money owed to me, or I will make this very secret information very very public.


How about destroying one of them to show the rest that your serious and it would make a lot of us feel better too.


If I don't get a response, sure.


Just do it. Less talk, more action.
If you gonna threaten people, i rather you just do it.

Ocularus Dothumiter
Amarr
CANUCK ENGINERING
Posted - 2009.08.27 02:53:00 - [340]
 

All the more reason to keep your own isk

Rotnac
Caldari
GoonWaffe
SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO
Posted - 2009.08.27 03:23:00 - [341]
 

Originally by: Kalrand
Whats hilarious to me is now its the three Goons that hang out in here that are about the only serious market people that haven't run off with truck loads of their investors' isk recently.


Somehow, when we Goons are arguably the most trustworthy around, something terribly, terribly wrong has happened.

PS, I'm not one of the three referenced above (I assume).

F90OEX
F9X
Posted - 2009.08.27 03:47:00 - [342]
 

Edited by: F90OEX on 27/08/2009 03:48:18
Originally by: cosmoray
I doubt the turnaround could be short term.

In the best situation in the world, EBANK has 900B in assets.
IF, they could generate 40B a month (need a miracle) it would still take 25 months to get back to 2T.

Even if the money is compounded, they have to get so much capital to work (loans, businesses) the result is diminishing return.

No matter which way you look at it, they have to earn 1,200B ISK off 800B. Take years.



No it does not, I was able to turn 875bil into 3.4t in less then 2years without great effort.

Few months ago while I was on TS with some other interesting traders Ray's name came up, even though I don't know him directly it was agreed he is one of the few known people who think outside the box and know how to turn around things like this.

It's because of that, I have decided to help out some of the people who have a large amount of Isk frozen within there Eve bank account and have other loans out with myself as mentioned in page 8-9. It's not a large amount (200bil).


Personally I think Eve bank got to big for there own good, and not enough checks and balance's and this is the result.

Tbh Ray will probably never know the full truth of what went on, only try clean up the mess that's in front of him.








Lexander Morinex
Caldari
LDD Investments
Posted - 2009.08.27 03:54:00 - [343]
 

Edited by: Lexander Morinex on 27/08/2009 03:56:48
Originally by: Brian Kwok


Sup Lex, nice to see the success stories from DBANK have joined in. Now its a party.


I wasn't sure if I hoped or feared that people remembered my time with DBANK.

What a f***ing mess that was. It became obvious after a couple of months that everything, and I do mean EVERYTHING, ran through Manalapan. In that whole time I talked with him RL over Vent exactly once. There were no immediate red flags but eventually I began to wonder.

The biggest problem was that the whole system (and I mean all banks) made no sense. You borrow billions of ISK and owe tons of money. But why would you bother to borrow in the first place? If what Manalapan claimed about his trading skills was true then he didn't need any ISK. He could have generated sufficient wealth for himself without paying 10% a month to a crowd of players.

There were no real individuals that were safe to loan money to. The reason people invested in the banks at low interest was because the other investments were too risky. How was DBANK (or EBANK) going to make money doing that? The answer was fairly simple. They would generate money doing exactly what all the other players did, but on a larger scale.

And that was the point where I stared to call bulls**t. The glory of running an online bank was fairly nonexistent. It is a lot of work and not a lot of respect. Any player who can manage 100b in ISK effectively can generate more than enough personal wealth to do whatever they wanted.

It made absolutely no sense. And that started raising red flags. Even if Manalapan had been the most communicative guy in the world he was working overtime to pay other people using money he didn't need. After all, if he could generate 1b in ISK per day by himself he hardly needed to be paying 10% to somebody else.

So after DBANK got scammed I knew it was time to throw in the towel. Not only was the liquidity situation almost certainly bad I had no idea that kind of money was going to one player anyhow. I was supposed to be involved in the risk management side of things and had no clue. I had better things to do with my life.

This whole EBANK thing doesn't surprise me at all. Ricdic's reputation was sustained with smoke & mirrors by previous directors when it was fairly clear to most he was more of a salesman than any kind of genius. It didn't take that much parsing of what was being said to figure that out.

As much as I admire Hexxx he often seems to operate in the land of theoretical ideas. A good example is his insurance model. It sounds so good on paper but any real mathematical analysis will show that such a system is just waiting for one sufficiently good scam to make it crumble. There are more than a few RL examples of that kind of thing and there are even fewer methods of enforcement online. I admire such ideas but I question the business model. The same was true of EBANK.

You don't need a bank to store your ISK. That is the primary function of banks for most people. There is really no sense in investing at 2% a month since the expectation on such an investment is surely (but not almost surely) negative. The idea that you can hand your money to somebody else and expect them to go make money for you is nice in theory. But it fails the smell test. With a few specific exceptions (mostly high risk large industrial projects) anybody who can actually use the money you are loaning them efficiently doesn't need your money in the first place. Certainly not billions of ISK.

So goes the grand experiment. By next year the lesson will likely be forgotten and this will start all over again. Maybe I will try to start my own bank just to see who is silly enough to buy into it at 2%.

- Lex


species2143
Posted - 2009.08.27 04:06:00 - [344]
 

Originally by: Lexander Morinex
Edited by: Lexander Morinex on 27/08/2009 03:56:48
Originally by: Brian Kwok


Sup Lex, nice to see the success stories from DBANK have joined in. Now its a party.


rabble rabble rabble
- Lex




Cool story bro...

cosmoray
Perkone
Posted - 2009.08.27 04:20:00 - [345]
 

Originally by: F90OEX
Edited by: F90OEX on 27/08/2009 03:48:18
Originally by: cosmoray
I doubt the turnaround could be short term.

In the best situation in the world, EBANK has 900B in assets.
IF, they could generate 40B a month (need a miracle) it would still take 25 months to get back to 2T.

Even if the money is compounded, they have to get so much capital to work (loans, businesses) the result is diminishing return.

No matter which way you look at it, they have to earn 1,200B ISK off 800B. Take years.



No it does not, I was able to turn 875bil into 3.4t in less then 2years without great effort.

Few months ago while I was on TS with some other interesting traders Ray's name came up, even though I don't know him directly it was agreed he is one of the few known people who think outside the box and know how to turn around things like this.

It's because of that, I have decided to help out some of the people who have a large amount of Isk frozen within there Eve bank account and have other loans out with myself as mentioned in page 8-9. It's not a large amount (200bil).


Personally I think Eve bank got to big for there own good, and not enough checks and balance's and this is the result.

Tbh Ray will probably never know the full truth of what went on, only try clean up the mess that's in front of him.






You might one of the most successful players in Eve (NAV), congrats.
The 2 year time frame was probably 06/07 - 08/09. A lot of profits probably came from some good T2 BPO's.
After invention the profitability of a lot of T2 BPO's has plummeted.

I very much doubt someone could make 3T in 2 years now, with invention.
I bet you must of had a few ISK printing press BPO's before invention (one or more of Hulk, Invuln II, HAC, CS, best ammo, LAR II, Expanded cargohold II, etc...)

I also admit that Ray is very smart, and I like his business and reporting standards. I think this time it will be too much work for 0 reward.

Kalrand
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.08.27 04:30:00 - [346]
 

Originally by: Jin Nib

Originally by: Kalrand

Whats hilarious to me is now its the three Goons that hang out in here that are about the only serious market people that haven't run off with truck loads of their investors' isk recently.
Take your time... Razz


My investors got paid. And I even warned of Ebank.
Here's where. MD didn't fund me, the goons did.

Kalrand
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.08.27 04:32:00 - [347]
 

Originally by: Rotnac
Originally by: Kalrand
Whats hilarious to me is now its the three Goons that hang out in here that are about the only serious market people that haven't run off with truck loads of their investors' isk recently.


Somehow, when we Goons are arguably the most trustworthy around, something terribly, terribly wrong has happened.

PS, I'm not one of the three referenced above (I assume).


Don't worry, you're not.

corsetwo and sophie diagneau first, then me second.

(spelling?)

Kitchie
Gallente
Vikramaditya
Posted - 2009.08.27 04:45:00 - [348]
 

Originally by: Lexander Morinex
Lots of stuff


A lot of what Lexander says about DBANK is true but hopefully not the end of the story.

Manalapan is not a scammer and was never interested in the ISK in itself. The challenge for people like Man is to run a Bank successfully. None of us could ever do it in RL and Eve has got to be one of the few games where it's possible.

The big difference between RL and Eve is in RL, a bank can be too big to fail, in Eve it's the opposite, a bank becomes too big to survive.

Because loans are not a realistic income stream for Eve banks (repayment unenforcable), trading becomes the principal money generating activity. A few billion - ok, but once it starts getting up to the DBANK levels of 600 billion - how on earth do you trade that much ISK profitably?

As Lexander stated, this was 100% in Manalapan's hands in DBANK and burnout from the stress had been apparent for a while with the website failure being the final nail in the coffin.

However, Manalapan has returned and discussions are ongoing on how to get DBANK up and running again. According to Manalapan (no independent confirmation), a large portion of depositors ISK is still intact, though there are some large loans of which the status is unknown at the moment. Exactly how large a deficit DBANK has is still being calculated.

A run on any bank, after incidences like these, leaves insufficient funds in the bank to generate the revenue to cover the shortfalls and with no central bank or lender of last resort, limiting customers access to deposits is unavoidable.

Personally, I believe that all depositors in EBANK and, hopefully, DBANK will get their ISK back eventually. Although Ricdic was a thief, both banks came unstuck due to management failures, not outright dishonesty.

And now we have two more banks in Eve, Eve Central Reserve and Ihatalo. It will be interesting to see what lessons they've learned....


Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
Posted - 2009.08.27 05:27:00 - [349]
 

Originally by: Betty Rhage
If I don't get a response, sure.

I look forward to your information. Laughing

On a more serious note, I'd just like to let everyone know we're aware of the concerns raised here and of the options presented. We have taken heed to the possibility people would like to withdraw their ISK sooner at a loss and will be working towards implementing a solution for that.

We're also well aware of the monumental task ahead of us. As someone has indicated 8% compounded for a year on this quantity of ISK is quite a mission. But nothing is set in stone, we're open to changing the conditions set in the OP and will implement any suggestions we feel are sound and of benefit to both customers and the bank.

Super Whopper
I can Has Cheeseburger
Posted - 2009.08.27 07:59:00 - [350]
 

Originally by: Kitchie
The big difference between RL and Eve is in RL, a bank can be too big to fail, in Eve it's the opposite, a bank becomes too big to survive.


There is no difference between the two. A bank that is too big to fail is a failure simply due to it holding more money than it should, and, thus, being able to wield too much power. The slogan 'too big to fail' was invented to bail out failures that shouldn't have existed in the first place.

Originally by: Kitchie
Because loans are not a realistic income stream for Eve banks (repayment unenforcable)


Ever heard of secure loans with collateral?

Originally by: Kitchie
A run on any bank, after incidences like these, leaves insufficient funds in the bank to generate the revenue to cover the shortfalls and with no central bank or lender of last resort, limiting customers access to deposits is unavoidable.


And what do you think is going to happen when EBank has once again being restarted?

Originally by: Kitchie
Personally, I believe that all depositors in EBANK and, hopefully, DBANK will get their ISK back eventually. Although Ricdic was a thief, both banks came unstuck due to management failures, not outright dishonesty.


500 Billion in theft and intentional dead loans don't make dishonesty Rolling Eyes

Originally by: Kitchie
And now we have two more banks in Eve, Eve Central Reserve and Ihatalo. It will be interesting to see what lessons they've learned....


Nothing, most likely. Unless they stay small to decrease the need to make massive profits. But, as has been said before, money is better off in your own wallet doing nothing than running, an eventual, 100% risk of being lost to you.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2009.08.27 08:35:00 - [351]
 

Quote:

I don't know him directly it was agreed he is one of the few known people who think outside the box and know how to turn around things like this.

It's because of that, I have decided to help out some of the people who have a large amount of Isk frozen within there Eve bank account and have other loans out with myself as mentioned in page 8-9. It's not a large amount (200bil).



The matter is: assumed he can turn the situation around and actually refund every bank customer, what good will do after such a year long freeze? Vertical drop of accounts the day they re-open withdrawals sounds like the most probable outcome. The bank would succesfully keep its word about "never an EBANK customer lost an ISK" but from this to imagine a sizable amount of customers staying with them is a bit over-optimistic.

Why didn't you offer to hedge or to consolidate EBANK before this turd happened? If they had liquidity patched they could slowly steer back to positive balance and no one would notice, same result but no heavy risk of people running off after getting their ISK back like today's situation will lead to.

Dranakolys
Gallente
Theurgy
Posted - 2009.08.27 08:46:00 - [352]
 

So why are incompetent fools like Hexxx and Athre still involved?

Whether you like it or not, they are directly responsible for this mess. Ricdic might have been the architect of this disaster, but Hexxx and co were there every step of the way supporting him, and did so for a very very long time. You can't blame this mess on Ricdic and Ricdic alone. He had a lot of help.

They are either as dishonest as Ricdic was (conveniently there is no way to know what the hell was going on), or they are just incredibly stupid. Either way, they should be nowhere near a management position ever again. The last thing EBank needs is their continued "contribution". It worked so well last time, right?

Why should anyone trust in EBank when the same people that let this happen in this first place are still involved?

I don't envy your position, Ray. At least there is one person on the EBank board now with a little more than cotton balls for brains.

Kitchie
Gallente
Vikramaditya
Posted - 2009.08.27 09:03:00 - [353]
 

Originally by: Super Whopper
Responses


Can't really disagree with any of your responses though I hope that last is not true and sadly, people needing loans often do not have the collateral, or need the items themselves.

Although I admire Ray's honesty and in the real world, that would have needed to be done, I can't help wondering whether it would have been better to keep the deficit under wraps. No causing panic, no mass withdrawals and quietly work in the background to rebuild the capital/funds. Nobody need ever have known unless something else caused a run on the bank.....


Mining Bunnz
Equatorial Industires
Posted - 2009.08.27 09:58:00 - [354]
 

Originally by: Dranakolys
So why are incompetent fools like Hexxx and Athre still involved?...


Why is Athre's name listed there? Seriously, she was a teller with them for a while and instrumental in delivering isk to their customers. Once the ricdic incident hit, she was a great choice. Ray as chairman through this process is absolutely the single best person I could imagine to even go close to pulling this off.

As to Hexxx, the question that has to be asked is how much of this did he know or suspect prior to stepping down? This was his baby as much as it was Ricdic's. He was the founding chairman, and unlike others involved, has real world experience in this sort of stuff. Oversight and reporting that was this sloppy is a failure on his part, and the founding board members. People that came on later, or departed midstream due to an inability to change these practices, certainly dont benefit from this failure, but they also shouldn't be held to account as much as those original board members who put this shonky pony in front of the cart to start with.

Ray, I have an ISK-making operation that may need a caretaker for a few months, Athre knows what it is in overview and I'd be happy to talk to you about it. Returns around 10-15%/mth mostly passive on about 45b. Hit me up ingame or authorise Athre to do so. (Caretaker needed because I believe its holiday time for me and a 3 month trip to the US means 3 months away from Eve!).

Ji Sama
Caldari
Tash-Murkon Prime Industries
Posted - 2009.08.27 10:04:00 - [355]
 

hexxx wasnt aware of it, he was just there as a placebo, a front, he resigned along time ago, if you read the MD you would know, he only came back from time to time, to do some damage control!
only reason he didnt officially resign was because he knew what drama it would create.
cut him some slack, he is after all the father of MD.
Caleb is his Wife, and Shar is their bastard child.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2009.08.27 10:06:00 - [356]
 

I'd also leave Athre out of the flames. She's a kind person (even if I think she hates me now Embarassed) and never stepped down doing the thankless job with competence.

In a world (universe in EvE case) of generals with no soldiers, she'd do the thick of the menial tasks.

As such she's also the one who I'd give her pay for the past, because unlike the others she did what she had to do.

Keyser Kahn
Stellar-Parallax Corp
Posted - 2009.08.27 10:06:00 - [357]
 

Originally by: Ji Sama
he is after all the father of MD.
Caleb is his Wife, and Shar is their bastard child.


Talk about disturbing imagery - that almost put me off my coffee, almost Twisted Evil

o/

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2009.08.27 10:31:00 - [358]
 

Originally by: Ray McCormack
It is possible the bank has been running at a deficit since its inception we have no evidence to disprove this.

What is certain is that this was allowed to happen by the Board.


This is basically the definition of a Ponzi scheme. Laughing

Ji Sama
Caldari
Tash-Murkon Prime Industries
Posted - 2009.08.27 10:42:00 - [359]
 

Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Ray McCormack
It is possible the bank has been running at a deficit since its inception we have no evidence to disprove this.

What is certain is that this was allowed to happen by the Board.


This is basically the definition of a Ponzi scheme. Laughing



noes you used teh forbidden word...

Betty Rhage
Hero Capital Bank
Posted - 2009.08.27 12:16:00 - [360]
 

Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: Betty Rhage
If I don't get a response, sure.

I look forward to your information. Laughing

On a more serious note, I'd just like to let everyone know we're aware of the concerns raised here and of the options presented. We have taken heed to the possibility people would like to withdraw their ISK sooner at a loss and will be working towards implementing a solution for that.




Its nice to know my threat carried some weight and your willing to give some of the money back... but that is not good enough for me. Either contact me in game within 24 hours and give me back all of my initial principle, or I start talking about things I should not.


Pages: first : previous : ... 8 9 10 11 [12] 13 14 15 16 ... : last (42)

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only