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Ulecese
Ihatalo Research and Development
Posted - 2009.08.26 20:53:00 - [301]
 

Originally by: Kalrand
Originally by: Ulecese
forgot to mention, I'll take all your 'Gordon Freeman Tech III' at current value also.



I valued that holding (under what I could back out of Ebank's method, which I disagree with) at 175,000,000 isk, not 133 Mil.


How have you came to that assessment on it's value, care to share?

GenXS
Posted - 2009.08.26 21:21:00 - [302]
 

Shocking.. so basicly 600B+ went missing from the books.
Or someone slipped on the 0 a few times on a payout ehe.

Athre
Minmatar
The Higher Standard
Posted - 2009.08.26 21:21:00 - [303]
 

Originally by: Ulecese
forgot to mention, I'll take all your 'Gordon Freeman Tech III' at current value also.



Catch me on MSN if you can, if not I'll be online after 12:30am USA Eastern.

Yer Ma
Caldari
Posted - 2009.08.26 21:42:00 - [304]
 

As in RL but just more magnified yet again in internet spaceship game two sayings ring true...

1) If it looks too good to be true it invariably is.
2) A polished turd is still ultimately just a turd.

Very Happy

TraderAlt 3104989531
Posted - 2009.08.26 21:47:00 - [305]
 

I have two candid questions.

1) Are the BOD and employees account frozen as well?
2) Could you tell us how much from those accounts was withdrawn after this solution was proposed/discussed to the BOD and employees, but before it was announced publicly (in aggregate form, no one need be identified)?

I feel that this will largely speak to the honesty and sense of fairness of the board starting from this point.


Mkiaki
Gallente
Progressive Business Solutions
Posted - 2009.08.26 21:48:00 - [306]
 

Originally by: TraderAlt 3104989531
I have two candid questions.

1) Are the BOD and employees account frozen as well?
2) Could you tell us how much from those accounts was withdrawn after this solution was proposed/discussed to the BOD and employees, but before it was announced publicly (in aggregate form, no one need be identified)?

I feel that this will largely speak to the honesty and sense of fairness of the board starting from this point.




We all know they've profited hugely from it.


Sansa Skyburner
Posted - 2009.08.26 21:58:00 - [307]
 

I suggest EBANK invests in 9 Raven's or CNR's and put the board members to work running level 4's for 8 or so hours a day. If you are serious about returning the money you borrowed from the depositors I don't see a problem with the lot of you putting a little elbow grease into it.

Sansa

Seyah Tebut
Posted - 2009.08.26 21:59:00 - [308]
 

Originally by: Kalrand
Originally by: Seyah Tebut
:words:


The problem wasn't just Ricdic carting off with a big pile of money, it was the garbage loans he was handing out for years.


If that's true, then how the hell would the BOD have missed gaping holes like that?

Ith Ratheos
Gallente
Posted - 2009.08.26 22:01:00 - [309]
 

Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: Tesal
stuff

Thanks for your opinions, but they're not valid in this context. The deficit is genuine, we cannot pull the plug as we don't have enough ISK to pay everyone out. Once we do, we'll open withdrawals and let the public make their own decisions.




I think a good number of people at this point would be willing to accept a return of 50 cents on the dollar. The risk of waiting this out is that more will be stolen and potentially nothing returned.

Alphrya
Top Hats and Monocles
Frontier Exploratory Logistics
Posted - 2009.08.26 22:16:00 - [310]
 

where is hexx?

Leviathan Taylor
Posted - 2009.08.26 22:20:00 - [311]
 

I'm sorry to hear that problems are again arising with the banks that are within eve.

I have invested in both Ebank and Dbank and when running i've had no problems with the service that has been provided.

If the banking industry is going to survive in the world then we need to look at setting up some sort of group that will monitor and watch each banks progress and to audit them as well. The people involved within this group would not be able to have any ties with either bank.

Another option would be for CCP to set-up a small team that could step in to resolve problems. I'm sure they would be able to track all the movements of isk and assets. But this would need to be discussed between the player base and CCP. Maybe the CSM could raise this upon their next meeting.

I hope that the industry can recover and i would like to offer my assistance to any of the banks if they require it. I have applied for position before but have not heard anything back from either of them. So please consider me if you decide to take on anymore staff of directors. You can contact me in game to discuss further.

Regards

Leviathan Taylor

Lexander Morinex
Caldari
LDD Investments
Posted - 2009.08.26 22:24:00 - [312]
 

Originally by: Ith Ratheos

I think a good number of people at this point would be willing to accept a return of 50 cents on the dollar. The risk of waiting this out is that more will be stolen and potentially nothing returned.


Since EBANK is basically stating that the current deposits will grow up to 2t at a growth rate of roughly 8% a month it really depends.

The basic math on the risk analysis is few MD investments are worth the risk. It does amuse me that for all the propaganda and statements from the EBANK group this does look surprisingly like either a Ponzi or a very badly invested operation.

I just don't see how Ray can reasonably expect 8% a month compounded growth for assets worth over 1t. I will note that when DBANK hit about 300b it was pointed out how incredibly hard it was for a company to offer rates above 5%.

It bothers me that the BoD of EBANK has made this decision without consulting the owners of the accounts. I understand the situation but I think a lot of players would feel they could do better in practice than EBANK is promising in theory.

- Lex

Kalrand
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.08.26 22:27:00 - [313]
 

Originally by: Ulecese
Originally by: Kalrand
Originally by: Ulecese
forgot to mention, I'll take all your 'Gordon Freeman Tech III' at current value also.



I valued that holding (under what I could back out of Ebank's method, which I disagree with) at 175,000,000 isk, not 133 Mil.


How have you came to that assessment on it's value, care to share?


Ray has confidence in its ability to continue as a going concern, so I'm discounted any credit impairment I'd normally add. Ray's numbers have it tossing off 7 million isk a month. I'm not going to argue with his assessment of their ability to do that. He appears to put a 4ish% discount rate on anything that he likes. I'm not going to be the one who tells him it's too low.

So yea. then it boils down to 7,000,000/0.04 = 175Mil.

Personally I'd offer in the neighborhood of 59 million, but I also think the MD valuations are insane right now. You people pay way too much for way too little.

Ulecese
Ihatalo Research and Development
Posted - 2009.08.26 22:31:00 - [314]
 

Originally by: Kalrand
Originally by: Ulecese
Originally by: Kalrand
Originally by: Ulecese
forgot to mention, I'll take all your 'Gordon Freeman Tech III' at current value also.



I valued that holding (under what I could back out of Ebank's method, which I disagree with) at 175,000,000 isk, not 133 Mil.


How have you came to that assessment on it's value, care to share?


Ray has confidence in its ability to continue as a going concern, so I'm discounted any credit impairment I'd normally add. Ray's numbers have it tossing off 7 million isk a month. I'm not going to argue with his assessment of their ability to do that. He appears to put a 4ish% discount rate on anything that he likes. I'm not going to be the one who tells him it's too low.

So yea. then it boils down to 7,000,000/0.04 = 175Mil.

Personally I'd offer in the neighborhood of 59 million, but I also think the MD valuations are insane right now. You people pay way too much for way too little.



I'm pretty sure they are worth closer to the 5-6m mark based on my information, we will see anyway :)

Kalrand
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.08.26 22:32:00 - [315]
 

Originally by: Lexander Morinex
Originally by: Ith Ratheos

I think a good number of people at this point would be willing to accept a return of 50 cents on the dollar. The risk of waiting this out is that more will be stolen and potentially nothing returned.


Since EBANK is basically stating that the current deposits will grow up to 2t at a growth rate of roughly 8% a month it really depends.

The basic math on the risk analysis is few MD investments are worth the risk. It does amuse me that for all the propaganda and statements from the EBANK group this does look surprisingly like either a Ponzi or a very badly invested operation.

I just don't see how Ray can reasonably expect 8% a month compounded growth for assets worth over 1t. I will note that when DBANK hit about 300b it was pointed out how incredibly hard it was for a company to offer rates above 5%.

It bothers me that the BoD of EBANK has made this decision without consulting the owners of the accounts. I understand the situation but I think a lot of players would feel they could do better in practice than EBANK is promising in theory.

- Lex


Their only way out is to pull the plug on this and start over.

I still like my plan for that.

Lexander Morinex
Caldari
LDD Investments
Posted - 2009.08.26 22:39:00 - [316]
 

Edited by: Lexander Morinex on 26/08/2009 22:40:17
Originally by: Kalrand


Their only way out is to pull the plug on this and start over.

I still like my plan for that.



The saddest part of this whole thing is that what EBANK has done is what mutual funds in really bad shape have been known to do. It is a sign of insolvency.

It also basically says 'You have no say in this, it isn't really your ISK anymore'. What always made EBANK a 'bank' instead of an 'IPO' was really the ability to pull ISK out quickly. What Ray is doing is basically converting EBANK into the structure of an IPO and promising a payout in the end.

- Lex

Kalrand
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.08.26 22:43:00 - [317]
 

Originally by: Lexander Morinex
Edited by: Lexander Morinex on 26/08/2009 22:40:17
Originally by: Kalrand


Their only way out is to pull the plug on this and start over.

I still like my plan for that.



The saddest part of this whole thing is that what EBANK has done is what mutual funds in really bad shape have been known to do. It is a sign of insolvency.

It also basically says 'You have no say in this, it isn't really your ISK anymore'. What always made EBANK a 'bank' instead of an 'IPO' was really the ability to pull ISK out quickly. What Ray is doing is basically converting EBANK into the structure of an IPO and promising a payout in the end.

- Lex


You mean hedge funds, but yea. He can do pretty much whatever he wants with your money right now.

tun
Pacific Rim Holdings
Posted - 2009.08.26 22:45:00 - [318]
 

Edited by: tun on 26/08/2009 22:46:40
Wow this is a long thread, wonder how many people complaining on this thread are actual customers of Ebank.
If you tied up all your isks in Ebank well then i feel sorry for you. Ebank is like any other investment in Eve, it succeeds and you get rewarded, if it fails you get screwd.
If Ebank was honestly going to scam you now I doubt they would have posted anything about them trying to freeze accounts and get fund back up, instead they would have just vanished. Its not like there asking for more isks to be invested in the bank, but they are freezing accounts, so they can get everything back to normal.
Oh and before I get flamed for being optomistic, yes I have multiple accounts in Ebank.

Any how I'll take my chances and use this as a opportunity to make more isks, by offering 25% on frozen ebank acounts. Eve Mail me if your interested. Plus this also Help ebank out by getting rid of people that are worried about not getting there isks. Ill take the risk for reward on this situation as will alot of other people that are will ing to take the chance.


Lexander Morinex
Caldari
LDD Investments
Posted - 2009.08.26 22:50:00 - [319]
 

Originally by: Kalrand

You mean hedge funds, but yea. He can do pretty much whatever he wants with your money right now.


My bad on the hedge funds part.

I suppose that is what bothers me. Ray has made a unilateral decision. Investors in EBANK (and that is what they have always been) were promised returns and a structure that justified those low returns (easy access). Now Ray and the BoD has changed the rules of the game without warning.

This is better than scamming and running with it but it still an issue.

- Lex

Gabriel Rosencrantz
Gods of Freight
Posted - 2009.08.26 22:52:00 - [320]
 

Hey check it out, even the forum threads are summer reruns from the spring!

Laughing

Brian Kwok
Posted - 2009.08.26 23:14:00 - [321]
 

Originally by: Lexander Morinex
Originally by: Kalrand

You mean hedge funds, but yea. He can do pretty much whatever he wants with your money right now.


My bad on the hedge funds part.

I suppose that is what bothers me. Ray has made a unilateral decision. Investors in EBANK (and that is what they have always been) were promised returns and a structure that justified those low returns (easy access). Now Ray and the BoD has changed the rules of the game without warning.

This is better than scamming and running with it but it still an issue.

- Lex


Sup Lex, nice to see the success stories from DBANK have joined in. Now its a party.

cosmoray
Perkone
Posted - 2009.08.26 23:28:00 - [322]
 

I doubt the turnaround could be short term.

In the best situation in the world, EBANK has 900B in assets.
IF, they could generate 40B a month (need a miracle) it would still take 25 months to get back to 2T.

Even if the money is compounded, they have to get so much capital to work (loans, businesses) the result is diminishing return.

No matter which way you look at it, they have to earn 1,200B ISK off 800B. Take years.

As soon as the audits are final, the only clear choice will be some sort of liquidation or rebase all the accounts to a lower percentage. At that point there might be a viable bank, but most people will withdraw their ISK, so EBANK will fold either way.


The responsibility of this lies with the BOD (original) and the Chairman especially. The original EBANK had a BOD to provide stroong oversight to protect against 1 person running off. We now find out that the BOD had NO idea what was going on.

Hexx has to take a massive hit for this. I do appreciate what he has done for MD, but he did not do his job as chairman and control his people (Ric). The BOD are going to be involved with the biggest SCAM ever in EVE.

I don't see how he has the credibility to get his insurance scheme off the ground now.

Most of the original board members of EBANK have trashed their rep with this outcome.
I feel sorry for Ray and Omber who have parachuted in to try to sort the mess out.

I do have more respect for Shar Tegral, because he tried to institute reporting and some standards last year and was forced to quit. Looks like he was right.

Ivanna Nuke
Gallente
Holders Of The Cowbell
Posted - 2009.08.26 23:51:00 - [323]
 

Large quantities of ownage in this thread.


Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2009.08.26 23:57:00 - [324]
 

Quote:

where is hexx?





Quote:

Hexx has to take a massive hit for this




Here, the answer.

He sniffed the air and even without clear accounting he understood "by skin" that things weren't smelling pretty. So he might have left before the "perfume" touched him. Like "get out with style and keep a low profile".

The sequence of the people going in and out of EBank in the last months could be truly random. But could also be not so random.

Brock Nelson
Posted - 2009.08.26 23:59:00 - [325]
 

Originally by: Dzil
Originally by: Brock Nelson
Just couple of questions;

1. If a business going under, the first step would be to eliminate liabilities. First thing that came to mind with wiping out the 75b owing to employee salaries. Was that option considered? I can imagine that some people would outright reject that.

2. It's known that EBank owns shares of public corporation including Flux Technologies, does EBank plan to hold onto those shares or sell them off at higher than purchase price?

3. Relating to #2, because you guys froze all accounts; customers can't retrieve their isk or earn interest. What's to stop other corporation whose shares are owned by EBank from sending dividends to EBank? I don't have any investment in EBank but if I did, my line of thought would probably be like this "If I can't get my money, why should I send these guys money?"

Good luck


You bring a great point here, Brock. Whatever their intentions might be, E-bank has effectively stolen a trillion isk, with a promise of "we'll pay it back".

I would hold you and any other companies with collateral, securities or other assets to seize 100% blameless to claim or at least freeze those assets against this default, doing no worse than a trusted third party reclaiming loan collateral on a scam or bust IPO/bond.


It may be a good point but I haven't seen any other public corporation (other than those that are offering buyback) comment on the current situation. For now, I'm staying on the side of the fence and pay dividends out regardless of the shareholder's situation.

Frankly, the whole EBank debacle hasn't really affected me much.

Betty Rhage
Hero Capital Bank
Posted - 2009.08.27 00:09:00 - [326]
 

I have a lot of inside data on the operations of evebank. A lot of the data, if made public, would totally destroy the credibility of many if not most of the people involved, including many "investors".

I want the money owed to me, or I will make this very secret information very very public.

Landea Kimimi
Posted - 2009.08.27 00:15:00 - [327]
 

Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: Block Ukx
[That would have us reducing our access to working capital.



I will make the startling, astounding, incredible offer to bail you out by buying EBank, it's assets, and none of its liabilities for.....


*1 MILLION ISK* Shocked


Think it over, get back to me.

Jimer Lins
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.08.27 00:31:00 - [328]
 

Originally by: Betty Rhage
I have a lot of inside data on the operations of evebank. A lot of the data, if made public, would totally destroy the credibility of many if not most of the people involved, including many "investors".

I want the money owed to me, or I will make this very secret information very very public.


This thread just keeps on delivering. By the truckload.

Rellik B00n
Posted - 2009.08.27 00:41:00 - [329]
 

business as usual tbh, and based on my reply in this thread I demand to be included in the "MD elitelist 2009."

ITS INTERNET MONEY YOU FOOLS!!!

Renarri
Caldari
Goats R Us
The Scapegoats
Posted - 2009.08.27 00:45:00 - [330]
 

Originally by: Betty Rhage
I have a lot of inside data on the operations of evebank. A lot of the data, if made public, would totally destroy the credibility of many if not most of the people involved, including many "investors".

I want the money owed to me, or I will make this very secret information very very public.


How about destroying one of them to show the rest that your serious and it would make a lot of us feel better too.


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