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Block Ukx
Forge Laboratories
Posted - 2009.08.26 18:31:00 - [271]
 

Originally by: Ray McCormack
...u mad? Open a bank in this climate?


Point taken, but I think you are mad too. I really hate the idea of freezing accounts. It places an unnecessary burden on the economy.

One possible alternative is to issue IOUís. Have you considered this alternative?



Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
Posted - 2009.08.26 18:32:00 - [272]
 

Originally by: Block Ukx
Originally by: Ray McCormack
One possible alternative is to issue IOUís. Have you considered this alternative?

That would have us reducing our access to working capital.

Jazz Scotch
Posted - 2009.08.26 18:47:00 - [273]
 

Edited by: Jazz Scotch on 26/08/2009 20:41:04
Edited by: Jazz Scotch on 26/08/2009 20:26:19
How long until I can get my ISK?

This is a service that should be providing in-game by None Player Corps.

How does CCP forget to put-in a Banking System?

When I started playing I was surprised that there was not one provide by the game, you know, so there would be some sort of control over collection of pass due accounts, and protection from asset theft. Even a stock market based on the None Player Corps in the game is missing.
I cannot access my ISK that I have been saving for over a year.
I donít know how long this will take to get my ISK back.
I donít know if I wish to continue playing EVE even.
This is a big blow to me, a game changing event. My ISK goes, my membership goes. No more EVE for me.
Iím only one account and CCP will not miss me.
I just canít see spending another year, trying to recoup the loss of my savings, Time for a new game.
Sad

I don't mean to sound like I'm blaming CCP, I'm just pointing out that I will have to quit playing, because the game has lose it's fun for me. My Plans can't go forward, so why pay to play. Need to know a time line too this.

I would also point out that my game play is in the hands of Ray. This is a game world, and there are no repercussions to someoneís actions, but I lay my trust and belief in the EVE community in Ray. If there is only one Honorable and trustworthy person in EVE it is still a game worth playing.

Ulric Zorn
Posted - 2009.08.26 18:52:00 - [274]
 

I don't know Ray but give him credit for sticking through this.

But, this whole matter needs to be treated more like a bankruptcy than a bank failure. Because of that, temporarily freezing accounts is a good idea ONLY for the short term. This should be done until a plan for distribution of the remaining assets is considered.

Bottomline -- I'd place faith in Ray but EBank itself is an abortion. It is insolvent, bankrupt, whatever you want to call it. It needs to be shutdown and then if Ray or anyone else wants to move forward with a whole transparency-based operation, then they can do so and ANYONE that gets involved with them will have a better idea of what they are in for.

If EBank limps along and at some point unfreezes accounts, the rush for withdrawls will decimate the bank.

Cut the cord and then work on a business plan that will return trust to those who are cleaning up the mess of the real crooks.

Secondskin
Amarr
Posted - 2009.08.26 18:57:00 - [275]
 

Originally by: Jazz Scotch
How does CCP forget to put-in a Banking System?

Your wallet is good everywhere and can neither be blown up nor stolen. Unlike real life there is no risk in flying around with large sums of cash. Deposits are always direct, withdrawls are instant, and transfers between players (or markets) happen in real time.

Aside from "free money" from interest, or the ability to take out an uncollatoralized loan that no one can ever enforce recovery of, what use does a bank truly provide?

Individual assets are protected. Central assets can be exploited. This has always been true.

cosmoray
Perkone
Posted - 2009.08.26 18:58:00 - [276]
 

Regards markets setting the rate.

I have spoken to a few people about this, and I know Kazzac and a few other are interested.

The issues I see:

1. What is exact value of saleable assets?
2. If we (group of players), purchase a large block of accounts at a rate we agree with account holders, do we then:

a. Have to wait 1 year for the EBANK turnaround

or

b. negotiate with the board to liquidate those accounts for a percentage we agree with EBANK.


If EBANK is willing to entertain the idea of an account buyout, let MD know what some of the conditions would be and maybe we can put a plan together.







If the restrictions are long term, meaning I have to leave the money in the account for a year, then the buyout would be under 10%.
If it was immediate (or short time frame) then the buyouts would be higher with a graduated scale, starting at 20%, and increase depending on level of recovery.

flakeys
The Great cornholio's
Paper Tiger Coalition
Posted - 2009.08.26 19:11:00 - [277]
 

Originally by: Jazz Scotch
How long until I can get my ISK?

This is a service that should be providing in-game by None Player Corps.

How does CCP forget to put-in a Banking System?

When I started playing I was surprised that there was not one provide by the game, you know, so there would be some sort of control over collection of pass due accounts, and protection from asset theft. Even a stock market based on the None Player Corps in the game is missing.
I cannot access my ISK that I have been saving for over a year.
I donít know how long this will take to get my ISK back.
I donít know if I wish to continue playing EVE even.
This is a big blow to me, a game changing event. My ISK goes, my membership goes. No more EVE for me.
Iím only one account and CCP will not miss me.
I just canít see spending another year, trying to recoup the loss of my savings, Time for a new game.
Sad


You blaim CCP for your own mistake.It has been said a thousand times on Md and logic sence would also tell you this: INVEST WHAT YOU CAN AFFORD TO LOOSE.

If this faillure made you loose all your isk then YOU have made a big mistake.I am sorry to bring this to you and you probably will disagree but i think most investors use this key factor.You sound like someone who ragequits after a goon has suicided on his hulk.





Mkiaki
Gallente
Progressive Business Solutions
Posted - 2009.08.26 19:12:00 - [278]
 

Just one thing to say here.

Owned Laughing

flakeys
The Great cornholio's
Paper Tiger Coalition
Posted - 2009.08.26 19:13:00 - [279]
 

Originally by: Mkiaki
Just one thing to say here.

Owned Laughing


No headshot is more the word i was looking at ...




Jazz Scotch
Posted - 2009.08.26 19:17:00 - [280]
 

Originally by: Secondskin
Originally by: Jazz Scotch
How does CCP forget to put-in a Banking System?

Your wallet is good everywhere and can neither be blown up nor stolen. Unlike real life there is no risk in flying around with large sums of cash. Deposits are always direct, withdrawls are instant, and transfers between players (or markets) happen in real time.

Aside from "free money" from interest, or the ability to take out an uncollatoralized loan that no one can ever enforce recovery of, what use does a bank truly provide?

Individual assets are protected. Central assets can be exploited. This has always been true.


Yes, keeping your ISK in your pocket is great. No interest, and No investments.
So know my Membership fees ($14.95) will go in the bank and get interest. Good deal.

Nemi Lethal
Gallente
DarkStar Armada
Posted - 2009.08.26 19:17:00 - [281]
 

Originally by: flakeys
Originally by: Mkiaki
Just one thing to say here.

Owned Laughing


No headshot is more the word i was looking at ...






Flawless Victory!

CompTrekkie
Posted - 2009.08.26 19:19:00 - [282]
 

Edited by: CompTrekkie on 26/08/2009 19:20:53
I want my money! (Reference to Family Guy Episode with Stewie and Brian) Very Happy But seriously I would really like my 598Mil. I was planning on withdrawing it as soon as it hit the 600Mil mark. Just needed a little longer Sad What timing I was so close to making it out clean.

I would be willing to settle with 400Mil. I am not sure the options yet I guess time will tell. I have a feeling this may be to much to hope for.

Jazz Scotch
Posted - 2009.08.26 19:19:00 - [283]
 

Edited by: Jazz Scotch on 26/08/2009 20:27:46
Originally by: flakeys
Originally by: Jazz Scotch
How long until I can get my ISK?

This is a service that should be providing in-game by None Player Corps.

How does CCP forget to put-in a Banking System?

When I started playing I was surprised that there was not one provide by the game, you know, so there would be some sort of control over collection of pass due accounts, and protection from asset theft. Even a stock market based on the None Player Corps in the game is missing.
I cannot access my ISK that I have been saving for over a year.
I donít know how long this will take to get my ISK back.
I donít know if I wish to continue playing EVE even.
This is a big blow to me, a game changing event. My ISK goes, my membership goes. No more EVE for me.
Iím only one account and CCP will not miss me.
I just canít see spending another year, trying to recoup the loss of my savings, Time for a new game.
Sad


You blaim CCP for your own mistake.It has been said a thousand times on Md and logic sence would also tell you this: INVEST WHAT YOU CAN AFFORD TO LOOSE.

If this faillure made you loose all your isk then YOU have made a big mistake.I am sorry to bring this to you and you probably will disagree but i think most investors use this key factor.You sound like someone who ragequits after a goon has suicided on his hulk.






CCP presented it as a advertisement in the begning of the game. As if they backed it, or have part of it.

Garthran
AP Holdings
Posted - 2009.08.26 19:34:00 - [284]
 

I feel, at this point, I must say, as an EBANK customer with a fair amount of ISK currently frozen, I still support this bank and hope for a speedy recovery. I as much as anyone understand that accidents happen (though this one is pretty up there). I would also like to state, for the record, that if I were given the opportunity to withdraw even part of my ISK in the current situation... I wouldn't. It is not ISK I am currently using. That's why it was in EBANK in the first place. I am not immediately in need of the ISK. I simply am distressed that one day the doors were open, and the next day they'd been welded shut.

No venture anywhere can truly succeed without trust. I'm willing to give my trust to the idea of EBANK. I feel that the staff member's I've gotten to know are not out to leave me with the bill, and I honestly feel they will work to fix this problem. Obviously, the idea of EBANK is different from the implementation of that idea, as this incident has indicated. I would like to see the idea and the implementation grow closer in the coming months. You have my support, and you of course have my ISK. But you would have had both even if you hadn't shut the door.

Good luck with the recovery, I look forward to good news.

Jimer Lins
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.08.26 19:36:00 - [285]
 

Originally by: Tesal
So EBank was possibly a ponzi scheme from the start.?



Fixed that for you.
Quote:

How is this possible without other members in leadership knowing?



Blinding flash of insight in 3...

Quote:
Did the former leadership know?


Laughing


Quote:

How do you know it was Ricdic and not other members of EBank? Do you have any evidence that shows where the isk went from these other isk generating ventures and who was involved?

Can EBank recover from this? Is EBank insolvent, and if so, why not simply liquidate and pay the proceeds to investors rather than dragging this out for 6 months or a year?

When will remaining cash be returned to depositors?




LaughingLaughingLaughingRolling EyesTwisted Evil

I just can't believe that 1) it's gone on so long and 2) people STILL want to believe in this scheme.


ShadowMaiden
Amarr
Atrocity.
Posted - 2009.08.26 19:45:00 - [286]
 

ITT - we try to sound like financial experts about pretend money

Victoria Akmea
Gallente
Taishite Kami
Posted - 2009.08.26 19:49:00 - [287]
 

Edited by: Victoria Akmea on 26/08/2009 19:54:09
I just have two questions.

One, wouldn't it be possible that instead of freezing all interest rates, you continue to deal out the interest at say, twice the rate of the account, but keep it locked down, and when you finally have enough to pay out completely, open the accounts again with that extra interest in it? It may take a little longer to get there completely, maybe an extra month or two, but people won't be sitting here thinking "Hey, my 30bn in my account isn't doing anything..."

You know, recoup for time on the accounts?

And two, for those with existing loans....Would we be able to give you our collateral to liquidate, and just pay the extra interest that has generated? Like, for mine, my balance on the loan is 322M (with the current interest accrued), and the collateral was about 310M. I let you keep my collateral and liquidate it, say you sell it for 305M. I then pay the extra isk left out of wallet, another 17M? I know for me, and maybe for others with loans out, it'd be easier to just let you liquidate the collateral as well as pay out any remaining fees rather than pay back the entire loan.

Edit : Or, you could just, at the end, for all the people who stayed with EBANK for the year or so, upgrade their accounts to 3% accounts. Means it only takes them another year to regain the lost interest, and if they stay longer than that, they get extra profit. Just an idea.

--TL;DR--

Would you keep the withdrawals locked but initiate a 3% or so interest, paid out at the end when the books are balanced, and can we just let you sell off the collateral on loans and pay out any remaining debt?


Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
Posted - 2009.08.26 19:53:00 - [288]
 

Originally by: Victoria Akmea
Would you keep the withdrawals locked but initiate a 3% or so interest, paid out at the end when the books are balanced

No.
Originally by: Victoria Akmeaand can we just let you sell off the collateral on loans and pay out any remaining debt?[/quote

Yes, contact your loan officer to arrange this.

Athre
Minmatar
The Higher Standard
Posted - 2009.08.26 20:15:00 - [289]
 

Originally by: Azelle Storm'Eye
A small thing struck me in your report over shares.

FIRD is set at 0 ISK value, and I can understand why, but from what I know the corp has been contacting shareholders and offered to buy back shares atm, and they seem to have contacted all the shareholders ( according to one of the BOD ), has Ebank been contacted ?
It isnt much to recoup on that account, but 32bill is afterall 32bill less you need to recoup


We were told the little investors would be paid out 1st. Nothing has been forthcoming from this corporation attempting to clean up Quadria's mess.

Athre
Minmatar
The Higher Standard
Posted - 2009.08.26 20:27:00 - [290]
 

Originally by: Block Ukx


Consider the following:
1) Ricdic was involved in the EIB scandal as a ďtellerĒ. (Bank scam)
2) EBANK was created by Ricdic. (Another Bank scam)
3) Deposits made to EBANK Ricdic were never audited.
4) EBANK was never audited. (Until you Ė Ray).



I think you give Ric too much credit.
He got blind sided by EIB
Attempted to show it could be done
Completely failed at accounting for his own doings in EBANK and flatly refused to do accounting in his and PP's venture. That being said, I think you give him too much credit for planning this from the onset.

Ric knew Selene was working on an audit (50% done from what we were told) and then Selene quit when I rejected his all or nothing dictatorship plan he shared with me. Little did I know what state the bank really was in at that time. What it amounted to was a Receivership type plan. Funny, I think we are there Montague.

Kalrand
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.08.26 20:28:00 - [291]
 

The more I think about this, the more I see this really needing a Good Bank/Bad Bank solution.

Good Bank
1) New Deposits, and new capitol from a few big investors (initially thinking the BoD members). Perhaps a short term bond could be issued.

2) Run it on the current website, and use your existing infrastructure, which from all accounts is top notch.

3)Run the bank openly with full transparency this time.

Bad Bank
1) Issue 1,900,000 in game shares from an alt corp, and distribute one for every million ISK someone has in Ebank right now.

2) Distribute the balance of the shares (it won't be exactly even due to rounding, but there will be some left over) to the new bank so it opens with a positive balance sheet.

3) Send out the issued shares to the record holder characters.

4) Pay one big opening dividend of the free cash in the current ebank.

5) Over the next few months, sell assets and loans to either people on MD, or the Good Bank (as it accumulates deposits), and pay dividends out to the share holders. At some point, auction the legacy assets to someone (or the good bank buys them out)

6) Close the corporation.


I'd be willing to advise with this, without asking for any access or roles that require trust.


What does this do?

Make the existing balances salable and give the people with stuck isk liquidity.

Keep ebank's operations as a going concern.

Let people feel better about depositing ISK into the Good Bank, knowing they aren't burdened by Ricdic's mess.

Ivanna Nuke
Gallente
Holders Of The Cowbell
Posted - 2009.08.26 20:33:00 - [292]
 

It is really simple what has happened, the owners of EBank basically have made an alliance of turnips to take over your isk, this is now funding the floating cows and buying them tech 2 milk cannons to fight the spacial cats on stilts.


Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2009.08.26 20:33:00 - [293]
 

I think you should close the doors in a somewhat orderly fashion. If your assets are currently tied up in investments you should do it by making a series of payments.

Lets say you have assets to pay everyone 50% of their money.(I don't know what the actual numbers are so the numbers and time frames are somewhat arbitrary) But lets further assume that only half of that is liquid (ie. 25%). I would announce that all depositors *must* come in and cash 20% of their assets within the next 9 months. Ok after nine months many people will not have cashed out. They may have left eve, whatever. After the 9 months you should have also collected on your investments.

The remaining money will then go into a pool. People will then be able to collect another percent of their balance from that. Announce that they must withdraw that percent in 2 months. Then just keep letting people withdraw every 2 months until they are either paid in full or the money runs out. People who left eve will be out of luck I suppose but what can you do? You will hopefully be able to repay many people who trusted you much of what they put in.

Trying to cling to this dead baby is not going to help anyone. No one is going to come in and bail out any operation that was handled this poorly. Everyone will simply rush the bank in one year you might as well not hold all that money that long.

Ulecese
Ihatalo Research and Development
Posted - 2009.08.26 20:35:00 - [294]
 

I mentioned this earlier in the thread but it seems to have been overlooked.

Anyhow, a couple of recent manipulation lessons to some hub traders has freed up alot more capital that has now been earmarked for reaqusitioning Ihatalo Cartel stock were possible.

[IHAFS] is now in a position to, if the Ebank BOD so desires, repurchase ALL 'Ihatalo Research and Development' shares you currently hold for 50,000 ISK each per unit (Ebank bought them at 27,000 ISK - so very good return - sell em :P ).

In addition, we can also buy back 6 of your [IRD] 7.5% bonds for full value if you wish. So, including the shares buyback that would be a cool 20b for Ebank to play with or release in limited withdrawals, whatever. :P

Let me know asap as we have other lucrative projects this can goto and I don't want to be sitting around waiting Smile


Regards
Ulecese

Pubsey
54th Massachusetts Volunteer Infantry
Posted - 2009.08.26 20:36:00 - [295]
 

Grats on an epic scam. Kind of depressing that people keep falling for it time and time again - "no this time they're legit! look at all the big backers" Confused

Kalrand
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.08.26 20:37:00 - [296]
 

Originally by: Ulecese
I mentioned this earlier in the thread but it seems to have been overlooked.

Anyhow, a couple of recent manipulation lessons to some hub traders has freed up alot more capital that has now been earmarked for reaqusitioning Ihatalo Cartel stock were possible.

[IHAFS] is now in a position to, if the Ebank BOD so desires, repurchase ALL 'Ihatalo Research and Development' shares you currently hold for 50,000 ISK each per unit (Ebank bought them at 27,000 ISK - so very good return - sell em :P ).

In addition, we can also buy back 6 of your [IRD] 7.5% bonds for full value if you wish. So, including the shares buyback that would be a cool 20b for Ebank to play with or release in limited withdrawals, whatever. :P

Let me know asap as we have other lucrative projects this can goto and I don't want to be sitting around waiting Smile


Regards
Ulecese




Take the man up on the shares, but those bonds are worth more.

Ulecese
Ihatalo Research and Development
Posted - 2009.08.26 20:45:00 - [297]
 

forgot to mention, I'll take all your 'Gordon Freeman Tech III' at current value also.

Kalrand
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.08.26 20:48:00 - [298]
 

Originally by: Ulecese
forgot to mention, I'll take all your 'Gordon Freeman Tech III' at current value also.



I valued that holding (under what I could back out of Ebank's method, which I disagree with) at 175,000,000 isk, not 133 Mil.

Seyah Tebut
Posted - 2009.08.26 20:50:00 - [299]
 

Given that I have been a detractor of Ebank when they've messed up in the past and was subsequently and harshly attacked for my criticisms, I can only feel like this is vindication of a sort. While I would be justified in screaming "I was right" in this post, I am not a lesser man so I will just focus on the present situation.


Ebank screwed up bad. While I appreciate Ray posting all this info, I think that you and the board have pretty much f'd up everything that you had going with Ebank. I'm glad that I listened to instinct and pulled out everything I had on my two characters when the Ricdic scam broke, because that was all my isk I had in this game. You woulda screwed me over for a freakin' year because of inept management of the bank which should not have been allowed to have gone on this long. I do not blame current management as they're trying to clean up the mess created by prior management, but it seems like they're getting all the blame unfortunately.

How could Ebank have thought themselves above external audits of their operations? Everything handled internally, so of course any results/audits done could be 'fixed' (and probably were I have little doubt). Enron anyone? To say nothing of them offering to do audits of various IPO's, which would then give them inside knowledge of it would be profitable to invest in, and invest heavily in. Could it be that these investments were intended to dump into Ebank's coffers to help cover interest payments? New deposits as well?

The decision to keep your guys' deposits going but blocking withdrawals and interest payments stinks, it really does guys. You're basically playing off of any of your good reputation left saying that people will be able to withdraw their isk within a year, they just have to have faith. Meanwhile, no interest payments will be made on isk held, no withdrawals will be honored, yet you still continue to allow money to be deposited to people's accounts. What's to stop you from just collapsing the bank and keeping all the contents of peoples' accounts? Nothing. And because of that little fact, that is why I got paranoid and withdrew all my isk after the Ricdic scam (which in retrospect was a good decision), because I anticipated that an account freeze was coming, but I had NO idea that it was going to be a year long one.

Whatever happened to your statements about how you always had enough isk to cover withdrawals, or that you could easily liquidate everything to cover what was in peoples' accounts? While the Ricdic scam hurt, I don't think it could've hurt that badly (of this I of course could be wrong). Then there is the misreporting of various amounts of isk; your payouts to salary for example. That used to be only in the hundreds of millions, now it's billions? How did that go up so far so fast?

Whatever the future is for Ebank (and while I wish you well and the best, and do hope to see you fully recover from this), I doubt that you'll be able to recover from a blow this serious, because after this, frankly, I don't think you'll have enough people trusting you to make running operations worth it and the bank will collapse either shortly after the freeze is over, or far before that as deposits dry up. Afterall, why would people want to deposit their isk to you without a promise of being able to retrieve it at will?

Kalrand
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.08.26 20:53:00 - [300]
 

Originally by: Seyah Tebut
:words:


The problem wasn't just Ricdic carting off with a big pile of money, it was the garbage loans he was handing out for years.


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