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something somethingdark
Posted - 2009.08.30 12:50:00 - [61]

Originally by: Perry


Linas IV
Posted - 2009.08.30 14:04:00 - [62]

Edited by: Linas IV on 30/08/2009 14:21:41
Edited by: Linas IV on 30/08/2009 14:06:39
Edited by: Linas IV on 30/08/2009 14:03:58
With the hope in mind that CCP is really interested in balancing the Ships, not just in stress-tests,
I'll try to state my opinion about the ones i know pretty well by now, the Republic-Fleet and
Angel-Cartel Ships. (owned Macharials for 2 years now)

-Pretty good low-Sp-Ceptor, but a bit low DPS.
-Suggestion: Add the speed bonus to the base speed, and change it for a 5% projectile Dmg Bonus.

RF-Stabber / RF-Scythe:
-Pretty fine ships, have their niches.

-Has the same problems as the normal Tempest, (below average large-ACs, too low PG and Range for Sniper fittings)
-Stats and Slot-layout are basicly fine.
-Suggestions: Buff Large Acs and increase the Powergrid (enough to fit 1400s + Plate + MWD), or completly change the Tempests Bonuses.

-Screwed Slot-layout (2 med, 3 low, less than a Rifter!)
-Pretty much wasted Tripple-bonus, because it has only 2 Turrets.
-Suggestion: remove 1 high, 2 launchers, add a Med-slot and at least one Turret (maybe move another low to med aswell)

-Worse than a Rupture in most cases because of the horrible low powergrid.
-Suggestions: Increase PG by 170

-Same Probs as the Tempest. (too low PG, pretty bad large ACs; fix them already!)
-Too High mass and therfore much too slow with AB/MWD at the moment to use the speed advantage.

Suggestions for an possible Angel rebalance: (Shieltank + Closerange Kiting)
-Move 1-2 Lows to Meds, on Cynabal and Machariel. (for better use of the speed advantage; plated Machs are poor)
-Change the Dmg-Bonus on all of the ships to 10% Falloff per level, and increase the Rof-Bonus to 7,5-8% per Level (to compensate the Dps-loss)
-Reduce the Mass on the Macha by 5-10%
-Fix Large ACs (5-10% moar Dps for example)

Scatim Helicon
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.08.30 14:13:00 - [63]

On the off-chance that CCP wants actual feedback on the faction ships, I'll paste the reviews from our wiki:

Dramiel: "Triple bonus to small projectile turrets, and two turret hardpoints out of five highs. A marvel of design ingenuity."

Cynabel: "suffers from serious fitting issues. It has the same high slot layout as the Rupture, and one additional low, but has 125 less grid with which to fit it. This makes it completely unsuited for using medium artillery and it even lacks with autocannon setups."

Machariel: "now little more than a Typhoon/Tempest hybrid with a good base speed [...] There is really little reason to fly a Machariel other than the fact that it looks cool"

Cruor: "not a ship for use in any manner, except to show off [...] All in all, this is a pretty useless frigate."

Ashimmu: "While sporting a Rapier/Curse bonus combo, it is ridiculously expensive and difficult to fit. The Ashimmu suffers horribly from the lack of a 4th midslot"

Bhaalgorn: "Ferocious tanking abilities with the NOS on, but, due to the lack of a damage bonus, mediocre DPS for a faction ship. [...] Unfortunately, the ship still isn't very good."

Worm: "A slightly better Merlin, the extra shields make it a fantastic Level 1 mission-runner. However that's about all it's good for since it carries no other noteworthy characteristics. And really, you could be using a destroyer to tear through Level 1 missions faster anyway."

Gila: "This ship is pretty terrible, it has split weapon bonuses and slots, low CPU/grid, low DPS, and its slow. Fly a cerberus instead which is completely superior in every way to this hunk of garbage."

Rattlesnake: "this ship is utterly useless in practice. It's very expensive and has no purpose whatsoever. For the ISK you'd spend on it for a PVE ship (since it's basically a Raven) you could buy a Golem or a, far cheaper, Raven Navy Issue, which are infinitely better. The hybrid bonus is useless in practice [...] too expensive for its role, and there are better options costing a fraction of its price which exceed it in every way. Even if this ship cost as much as its alternatives, it still would be inferior. Do not ever touch one or fly one"

Succubus: "The Succubus is by and far the best faction frigate in the game. Massive fitting numbers enable it to fit the classic oversized tank AND the biggest guns possible AND an MWD, all without fitting mods. While it only has two guns, the bonuses and its special ability means that it packs quite a punch."

Phantasm: "Flying the ship in PVP is only recommended if you enjoy shiny toys, since it is absolutely going to be a priority target for the enemy. For PVE uses it's a reasonably effective ratting ship."

Nightmare: "exceptionally expensive and, while it certainly is unique, the cost generally precludes use in 0.0 PVP. The primary use of the ship is as a pimped out mission running ship"

Daredevil "CCP and their dumb fetish with split slots strike again, with all of the damage bonuses limited to a single weapons system. Any utility the fourth mid may give you is overshadowed by the fact the Taranis does everything this ship does, but better."

Vigilant: "A Thorax on steroids, and with one more midslot than a Deimos it makes for a really good "Almost HAC" ship. Without rigs you'll have a lot of trouble fitting everything but thanks to it having more Rig slots and calibration points than the HAC you can work around this problem easily."

Vindicator: "nerfs, the rise of Recon ships in everyday fleets and sometimes Capitals in even the smallest gangs have made this thing a tomb to fly [...] can fit a respectable passive armor tank, but is outperformed by the far cheaper Megathron Navy Issue"

[part 2 coming]

Scatim Helicon
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.08.30 14:33:00 - [64]

Amarr Navy Slicer: "An overgrown Executioner designed as a really expensive Punisher with headlights and an extra low slot."

Caldari Navy Hookbill: "a hard tanker and that's it!"

Gallente Navy Comet: "There are only two things that make this ship interesting to goons:

1) The letters "GF-PD" are stamped on the side of it.
2) It has police lights."

Republic Fleet Firetail: "a very expensive Rifter with 2 missile and 2 turret hardpoints, and about 50% more shield and armor."

Augoror Navy Issue: "With the same powergrid as the Maller and seven lowslots as well it can fit a mean tank for a cruiser."

Omen Navy Issue: "This ship is good, but it's still some ways behind the Phantasm. The Phantasm can provide similar DPS, but with a better Alpha, a better range, a better tank and is more Cap stable than the Omen Navy Issue, at the cost of two drones and some effective HP, and a ****load more ISK and the inconvenience of cross-training. So if you're not going to bother with cross-training and need to spend 200m in a Cruiser, the Omen Navy Issue can be a good option. Only God however knows why you'd do that."

Osprey Navy Issue: "has a double bonus to Missiles, but is lacking in versatility due to the lack of utility highslots"

Caracal Navy Issue: "Marginally better than a Caracal but not quite as good as a Cerberus"

Exequeror Navy Issue: "This was a crappy ship anyway, and the speed nerf just totally ****d it"

Vexor Navy Issue: "a hybrid of a Thorax and a Vexor, with the turret slots of the former and the drone bonus and bay of the latter. Since both the Vexor and Thorax are excellent ships, the Vexor Navy Issue ends up being something of a powerhouse, able to output in excess of 700 DPS with good skills in a 'gank' fitting"

Scythe Fleet Issue: "basically a fast Bellicose with an extra highslot and a smaller dronebay"

Stabber Fleet Issue: "comparable to the Vagabond [...] probably the best Bumping vessel in the game when outfitted with a battleship-sized Micro Warp Drive"

Apocalypse Navy Issue: "400m isk. You get 20% more Armor, 20% more Shield and 1 more Low slot for your money"

Raven Navy Issue: "one of the single best ships for PvE, as its primary use is as a level four mission running machine"

Megathron Navy Issue: "It can tank a little bit better than the standard Megathron, but on the whole you're paying for an extra lowslot and ~1k more armor."

Tempest Fleet Issue: "No additional CPU or Grid, which makes actually USING that extra mid questionable, at least if you intend to try and shield-tank it."

Posted - 2009.08.30 15:14:00 - [65]

Well, as I already posted ideas about this issue elsewhere, I'll just link to them.

On Pirate Faction Ships
(Alternative Guristas Modification)
On Empire Faction Ships

To mare
Advanced Technology
Posted - 2009.08.30 16:14:00 - [66]

for the faction ships i have flown i can say:
-cruor is useless, too low mids
-ashimmu have terrible fitting, need a drone bay, laser bonus is useless cause it cant fit them anyway.
-bhaalgorn not bad but fitting is too tight and again laser bonus isnt the optimal(maybe a projectile bons or a dmg bonus to laser).
-dramiel need a 3rd turret
-cynabal need more fitting, AC+1600plate+2 missile launcher/med neut and it could have a niche over the fleet stabber/rupture
-Machariel lost the only thing where it was good at in the nano nerf, need more speed and better agility. suffer the large projectile suckage.
-fleet tempest suffer the large projectile suckage as well as the machariel. FIX LARGE PROJECTILE.
-rf scythe, rf firetail, gn comet, cn hookbill all have a crappy split weapon system, fix it.

if someone tell me to stop whine about fitting, and to use faction fit on faction ships just look at the sansha ships, they can be fully fitted with T2 stuff and fitting problem at all. hell the nightmare can even fit a rack of tachyon + mwd w/o fitting mods.

and to all the ppl who suggested to give faction ships a marauder bonus pls stop it, its not needed.

Imiarr Timshae
Funny Men In Funny Hats
Posted - 2009.08.30 16:33:00 - [67]

Feedback on faction ships :

My personal view on all of the faction ships, having flown them all, is that rather than being special they are simply alternative. The empire faction variants are fine, being an improvement on the regulars, which they are, but the Nightmare/Vindicator/Bhaalgorn/Rattlesnake/Machariel arn't an improvement on anything.

The lack of a unique feel was dispelled somewhat with the Nightmare's damage bonus, and I think that applying this to all of the faction ships would simply make you some Marauders with three rig slots.

Instead, I think that the faction ships should gain some more character to them, other than just being "I do missions in it, it's great."

I would suggest that the faction ships be given all around bonuses, as they are "modified" versions of empire ships, souped up arsekicking machines, or, in Sansha's case, a whole new monstrosity.

A bonus to everything I think would be suitable, something along the lines of a 5% boost to all modules of all kinds. (Not per level, just 5%

This means :

Shield boosters boost 5% more and cost 5% less cap, and have 5% less cycle time.
Armor Hardeners have 5% more resistances (pre stacking) and 5% longer cycle time and 5% less cap.
Missile launchers have 5% faster ROF, 5% more damage, 5% lower reload times, 5% more capacity.
Armor plates give 5% more armor bonus

And, to add to this, all modules have 5% lower fitting requirements.

It would seem imbalanced, but it isn't simply due to these faction ships rarity. They become a viable option for fleet combat when they are that much better but cost you 1bn+.

It fits in with the idea of the custom faction ships : (Guristas pinching a Scorpion and making it awesome?) and it won't make them too powerful as marauders will still be better for marauder type operations yet it will provide faction ships with a unique niche. Faction frigates will be useable in PvP etc.

In my opinion this idea would give the pirate faction battleships a much needed boost to simply make them something more than "Hey look I got a navy mega from Serpentis.", without making them any rarer or more common this would really make them feel more like the unique modified piratemobiles they should be.

Anyway, my idea.

Posted - 2009.08.30 16:41:00 - [68]

Fleet Scythe needs something so it get's used for something good since I never ever see one unlike the Fleet Stabber which are seen more often.

Sansha ships are by far the best dps boats for low sp people if you ask me.

Linas IV
Posted - 2009.08.30 19:21:00 - [69]

CCP throw us a bone please. Are you planning to rebalance the faction-ships or is this just a "for fun" Event.

Sinnbad Mayhem
Posted - 2009.08.30 20:40:00 - [70]

Very enjoyable event both days. Lag was barely noticeable and the fleet was well behaved. Hopefully we get some constructive feedback from this.

I doubt anyone on TQ will ever get the chance to blow up THAT many Faction BS in one go but was very cool to witness it both days Wink

Surviving 3x DDs with more than half my a Navy Apoc.... Priceless Razz

CCP WeirdFish

Posted - 2009.08.30 20:48:00 - [71]

Originally by: Linas IV
CCP throw us a bone please. Are you planning to rebalance the faction-ships or is this just a "for fun" Event.

I need your constructive opinions on the ships, so please go to the feedback thread and give me your opinions, that was the aim of the event.

Maelstrom Crew
Posted - 2009.08.30 21:25:00 - [72]

Originally by: Sera Ryskin
Originally by: Scatim Helicon
Edited by: Scatim Helicon on 29/08/2009 19:59:55
I'm sure CCP learned alot about faction ship balance by putting 200 of them in a fleet and repeatedly doomsdaying them Very Happy

I guess this is CCP's concession that the whole "faction ship balance" thing was pure bull*** and just an attempt to get enough people to show up for their stress test?

I mean, I'm sure it would be wonderful for every faction ship to be able to tank a DD or ten, but does anyone honestly think that we're going to see any fixes coming, with this kind of hilariously stupid "testing"?

I take it you guys missed the baddass and slightly RP wormhole session?

I and DO believe that kind of testing will help out since it was a 'stress' test. Im sure todays event will give a good idea to CCP of what can be added in the future. Otherwise how will you know what your system can do (CCP servers) if you dont test out what they are capable of doing?

Posted - 2009.08.30 21:34:00 - [73]

Originally by: Sera Ryskin
Originally by: CCP WeirdFish
The fleet and pos test are purely to get some numbers and data the idea is to give you the ships and then let you play with them and that's where we get our balance data. Yes there will be stress tests runing but the aim of the whole event is to get a feeling of how you all see the ships as comparing with there T1 and T2 counterparts as well as each other.

What balance "data" are you hoping to get? That most people feel that the Machariel is a poor ship for killing POSes? No ****, nobody uses it in that role or expects it to be good in that role. The "data" you are going to get is about as relevant to balance decisions as if you decided to test mining barge balance in a POS fight.

There are two things you should do:

1) Read the MANY balance threads that have already been posted. There have been many good ideas, and vast amounts of constructive feedback, and all you have to do is go read it.

2) Test faction ships in solo and small gang fights. Unlike POS killing and large fleet fights, these are the situations where people actually USE faction ships. And since the balance issues, fundamental tactics, etc, are all completely different from POSes/fleet fights, you will get feedback that you could not get from your current plan.

Or take the third option: admit that all this talk of "balance" is just a way to get lots of people to sign on for your stress test. Seriously, we would have a much higher opinion of your judgment if you just admitted the faction ships are just bait, rather than pretty much the worst possible approach to balancing you could possibly think of.

all of this to be honist

testing faction ships in massive blobs where their unique bonuses don't stand it is completely ******ed

Maelstrom Crew
Posted - 2009.08.31 04:01:00 - [74]

I made a bunch of clips with todays event and thought I would share what a badass day it was today.
Nice to have some fun while CCP test their servers.

Im no video editor btw , I just record and convert.


Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
Posted - 2009.09.02 06:13:00 - [75]

Please buff the following ships: Machariel and Dramiel.
I don't know if they are balanced or not, but I need to sell some more of them and hope that you can help me by increasing the demand for those ships.
The rest of the faction ship can be nerfed.

5th Front enterprises
Chain of Chaos
Posted - 2009.09.03 11:22:00 - [76]

suggest u guys leave the nightmare. It does a good amount of damage but given the price of 1.2b isk its by far the most expensive to. 4 laser slots that do a large amount of damage ut 2 other slots that can only take something like cloaker or nos.

Plus the fact the cap can run down pretty quickly and the need for a few shield mods its good on dps but if its sucked dry or being attacked at close range then they are sitting ducks unless i na gang ( esp against a bhaalgorn)

Otherwise vindicator needs something projectile bonus perhaps ?

Other ships seem fairly balanced machriel might get a small damage boost and a small resistance boost and nerf its top speed a little.

1600 RT
Posted - 2009.09.03 11:40:00 - [77]

nerf sansha ships to the level of the others, problem solved Laughing

Posted - 2009.09.04 02:44:00 - [78]

Originally by: 1600 RT
nerf sansha ships to the level of the others, problem solved Laughing

part of me just died from reading that... :(

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2009.09.04 09:52:00 - [79]

Originally by: 1600 RT
nerf sansha ships to the level of the others, problem solved Laughing

Alright, here are my proposals:

Keep 100% damage bonus to lasers, but half the number of turrets.
Since we halved the turrets, cut PG and CPU appropriately, and then some more.
Remove drone bays.
Change tracking bonuses to cap use bonus. On hybrid weapons.

Job done! Idea

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2009.09.05 00:27:00 - [80]

Edited by: Cpt Branko on 05/09/2009 00:28:14
On the ships I've flown:
- Cynabal: you get a rupture with a extra low and less fitting space, and less dronebay. Plus, inferior tracking bonus to the fleet stabber.

The ship needs the following:
- 10%/level tracking bonus (inline with fleet stabber)
- 25m3 dronebay/bandwidth
- +150 grid

What it could really use, however, is this:
-1 highslot, +1 midslot

That would make it a interesting counterpart to the fleet stabber.

I also don't really like the looks of it, but eh.

James Vayne
Posted - 2009.09.09 15:53:00 - [81]

Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: 1600 RT
nerf sansha ships to the level of the others, problem solved Laughing

Alright, here are my proposals:

Keep 100% damage bonus to lasers, but half the number of turrets

So you'd have a Succubus running around with one turret would you?

if you half the amount of turrets on the others it wouldn't be worth having the bonuses. You'd be suffering from the same problem the dramiel is.

Dramiel, by the way, desperately needs:

Powergrid/CPU boost.
Third Turret (at the expense of a launcher)
Third Mid.

Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
Posted - 2009.09.09 17:12:00 - [82]

maybe it's time for an outline of pirate faction ships - a manifest if you will...

like we have for sanshas, being shield tanking marauders;

angels could keep their slot layout (pending (major) projectile corrections). this may have made sense once upon a time with propulsion upgrades working differently. but unless they get a... +50 to +100% speed role/race/whatev' bonus, this'll never work out. signature in today's day and age may work on specialized scimitars and inties but that's it, really. so i fear they'll have to become an armor race.

blood raiders are weird but somehow that's the fun. however, their bonuses don't work together well. therefore, i'd suggest changing bonuses to something like...
role bonus: +50% nos/neut amount
per level(s):
cruor: +20% nos/neut range, +5% web strength
ashi: +10% nos/neut range, +5% web range+strength
bhaal: +15% web range, 5% web strength
- and ofc the obvious fitting stats boost

i don't have much experience with guristas... -.-

serpentis.... +7.5%/lvl to the effectiveness of damage controls...? :D

and we'd need the same outlines for empire faction ships really... seeing how this new tempest doesnt originate from any existing minmatar philosophy, maybe it's time to draft one. as i posted before, we do have the "new" fleet stabber, which could make an excellent basis for speedy minne ships with drones, a alot layout that favours T1 armor tanking against lasers, some tracking to go along with a built-in extra-speed.
the phoon has the slot layout and the drones already and offers missiles instead of tracking - works for me. if the tempest ends up looking like a geddon slot-wise, then that's ok, too. bring in the role players immersionists to bombard us with stuff like minmatar taking amarr tech with them when they "left"
this may leave us with little room for a future addition of ammatar ships but i don't see that happening for the next five years anyways -.-

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