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Papa Smurf

Posted - 2004.10.12 21:05:00 - [1]
 

Research Agents - will not be changing for the moment. It is my hope that the agent offer system will prove to be a proper channel for agent research services in the future. The Agent Offer system addresses many of the shortcomings of the research system and is deeply rooted in discussions about the research system found far down in the bowels of this forum (initiated by Morkt Drak, if my memory serves me correctly)

Location Service - will also not be changing for the moment, but improvements and other agent services are certainly pending.

Rumour Service - gosh I wish that thing didn't exist ;) Anyhow, will continue to ignore it for the time being.

Feel free to ask about other Shiva stuff here.

Qual
Gallente
Cornexant Research
Posted - 2004.10.12 22:02:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Qual on 12/10/2004 22:05:06
Im glad you aren't rushing in changes to R&D agents. The current system might be unfair as hell, but many corps are paying for the bpo's based on long term revenue. If bp's become "common" lots of corps would be hurt bad.

I for one like the system just as it is. (No havent gotten any bpo's yet, but not complaining...)

S'Daria
Posted - 2004.10.13 00:29:00 - [3]
 

Thanks for letting us know what we can expect.

We know you guys are busy with alot of the other features, but when you do get around to R&D agents I hope the solution is something like this:

1. Allow us to buy BPC with Research Points (RPs)
2. Allow us to buy BPO with alot of RPs
3. Don't restrict the number of missions we're allowed to do - RPs are rewarded for R&D missions
4. Allow us to donate materials that effect the research effort (I need some Tech2 components, that'll give us a 10% boost to research - bonus RPs)


There are plenty of threads that have a bunch more ideas to consider as improvements post-Shiva.


The Sloth
Posted - 2004.10.13 05:46:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: S'Daria
Thanks for letting us know what we can expect.

We know you guys are busy with alot of the other features, but when you do get around to R&D agents I hope the solution is something like this:

1. Allow us to buy BPC with Research Points (RPs)
2. Allow us to buy BPO with alot of RPs
3. Don't restrict the number of missions we're allowed to do - RPs are rewarded for R&D missions
4. Allow us to donate materials that effect the research effort (I need some Tech2 components, that'll give us a 10% boost to research - bonus RPs)


There are plenty of threads that have a bunch more ideas to consider as improvements post-Shiva.



I actually think that if the loyalty points offer system proves to be successful then that sytem should be transfered to the research system. That way there is still some element of 'luck' in the research system however there will be a more frequent 'end-game' for those people performing research. This will also encourage research to be a more dedicated field where people would actually do the missions rather than just start the research and hope they are lucky.


The Sloth.

Maric
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2004.10.13 06:20:00 - [5]
 

Question:

Will working mission for R&D agents gives LP's AND RP's or just RP's? Will R&D agents give Offers?

PhamNuwen
Caldari
Abyss Rangers
Posted - 2004.10.13 07:20:00 - [6]
 

Some Remarks to rewards of agents and the 'game economy'
BPO/BPC
- please don't drop unlimited BPOs/BPCs
--> this will cause in each case a inflation
- please don't drop unresearched limited BPC
--> most items are too expensive if produced with such a BPC

Tec2-Tool
- the number of RDb/RAM is to high in the game, especially as they can be repaired
- create a drain for ALL items

Other Tec2-Items
- create a game internal feedback on these items
--> respawn (more rewards via agents), if under a item specific limit (example Grav Reactors or such things)
--> use this also for BPOs (limited or not)

Items
- create a 'wear lifespan' for all items (depending on usage or depending on time)

Papa Smurf

Posted - 2004.10.13 08:39:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Maric
Question:

Will working mission for R&D agents gives LP's AND RP's or just RP's? Will R&D agents give Offers?


No, Research Agents will continue to be mutant bastards that do nothing but the research service in Shiva.

If we do move research into the offer system, we will however probably change that and make Research Agents equivalent to any other agent. There'd be numerous issues to consider related to that of course, but as this isn't even on the drawing board yet, any further details on that point would be extremely inaccurate.

Papa Smurf

Posted - 2004.10.13 09:01:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: PhamNuwen
Some Remarks to rewards of agents and the 'game economy'
BPO/BPC
- please don't drop unlimited BPOs/BPCs
--> this will cause in each case a inflation
- please don't drop unresearched limited BPC
--> most items are too expensive if produced with such a BPC

Tec2-Tool
- the number of RDb/RAM is to high in the game, especially as they can be repaired
- create a drain for ALL items

Other Tec2-Items
- create a game internal feedback on these items
--> respawn (more rewards via agents), if under a item specific limit (example Grav Reactors or such things)
--> use this also for BPOs (limited or not)

Items
- create a 'wear lifespan' for all items (depending on usage or depending on time)


Plenty of good points here. The Shiva-related ones:

1. Agent Offers will not be dropping unlimited BPOs/BPCs. Agent Missions will at least for the time being still have these problems. We plan on dealing with them however.

2. I totally agree with you about the tools, but this issue has traditionally and repeatedly been ignored by the people that need to deal with it inhouse. In Shiva the plan is to increase monitoring and management of type distribution ingame, which may result in improvements. I make no promises however.

3. Supply/Demand of other Tech II items should hopefully also be improved as the result of better monitoring and management.

4. General wear lifespan is a good idea, but probably will have to await a later time due to implementation considerations.

Qual
Gallente
Cornexant Research
Posted - 2004.10.13 09:11:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Qual on 13/10/2004 09:16:41
Originally by: S'Daria
Thanks for letting us know what we can expect.

We know you guys are busy with alot of the other features, but when you do get around to R&D agents I hope the solution is something like this:

1. Allow us to buy BPC with Research Points (RPs)
2. Allow us to buy BPO with alot of RPs
3. Don't restrict the number of missions we're allowed to do - RPs are rewarded for R&D missions
4. Allow us to donate materials that effect the research effort (I need some Tech2 components, that'll give us a 10% boost to research - bonus RPs)


There are plenty of threads that have a bunch more ideas to consider as improvements post-Shiva.




This would in many ways compare to the Miner II and Shield Amp Scenarios a year ago. This was NOT a good idea. If there exist a guaranteed way of getting something everybody WILL get it. Chance have to be an element. And quite a big element. Thus my controversial oppinion that the curretn system is just fine, becourse I haven't seen a better suggestion that would work to the games benifit.

Why dont I want a sure way to get a specific BPO/C?

Well in T1 market the only competition factors are price and sell location.

In T2 we have the "ability to produce" factor added, but not much else. T2 market would become like T1 market if BPO/C's were readily availeble. With the much longer supply chain on T2 and eventual later Techs, this would kill all the small and middle size tradecorps. Why? Becourse players would either build what they need themselfs from collected stuff and trading or they would go to the people who can sell it the cheapest, which is allways the huge corps that does most of the work in house. And doing everything in house is only possible for small and medium size corps on T1. T2 and later requires them to have sub-suppliers of stuff, a model that works when prices are inflated due to limited bpo's.

All in all, the current model is quite fragile, and shouldn't be changed unless a lot of thought goes into the changes.

But all of this is circling the real problem: The lack of possibilities to differentiate products. If further research could be made on bpo's to slightly improve things like power grid usage and cpu usage and some of the modifiers, well, then we could build pirate loot like stuff. This of course would be hell for the Rat hunters, exept if they could still get things that was better in areas we could not improve as bpo owners.

Hm. That became a longer post than planed. Thnks for staying to the end. (If you didn't just skip here...) Cool

Papa Smurf

Posted - 2004.10.13 10:10:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Qual
Edited by: Qual on 13/10/2004 09:16:41
Originally by: S'Daria
Thanks for letting us know what we can expect.

We know you guys are busy with alot of the other features, but when you do get around to R&D agents I hope the solution is something like this:

1. Allow us to buy BPC with Research Points (RPs)
2. Allow us to buy BPO with alot of RPs
3. Don't restrict the number of missions we're allowed to do - RPs are rewarded for R&D missions
4. Allow us to donate materials that effect the research effort (I need some Tech2 components, that'll give us a 10% boost to research - bonus RPs)


There are plenty of threads that have a bunch more ideas to consider as improvements post-Shiva.




This would in many ways compare to the Miner II and Shield Amp Scenarios a year ago. This was NOT a good idea. If there exist a guaranteed way of getting something everybody WILL get it. Chance have to be an element. And quite a big element. Thus my controversial oppinion that the curretn system is just fine, becourse I haven't seen a better suggestion that would work to the games benifit.

Why dont I want a sure way to get a specific BPO/C?

Well in T1 market the only competition factors are price and sell location.

In T2 we have the "ability to produce" factor added, but not much else. T2 market would become like T1 market if BPO/C's were readily availeble. With the much longer supply chain on T2 and eventual later Techs, this would kill all the small and middle size tradecorps. Why? Becourse players would either build what they need themselfs from collected stuff and trading or they would go to the people who can sell it the cheapest, which is allways the huge corps that does most of the work in house. And doing everything in house is only possible for small and medium size corps on T1. T2 and later requires them to have sub-suppliers of stuff, a model that works when prices are inflated due to limited bpo's.

All in all, the current model is quite fragile, and shouldn't be changed unless a lot of thought goes into the changes.

But all of this is circling the real problem: The lack of possibilities to differentiate products. If further research could be made on bpo's to slightly improve things like power grid usage and cpu usage and some of the modifiers, well, then we could build pirate loot like stuff. This of course would be hell for the Rat hunters, exept if they could still get things that was better in areas we could not improve as bpo owners.

Hm. That became a longer post than planed. Thnks for staying to the end. (If you didn't just skip here...) Cool


The short version: Qual is right. The problems of gauranteed BPOs are just too many. Destroys all potential for player involvement in manufacturing really.

If the research system does end up in the offer system, odds are that it would have some of the following characteristics, taking Miner III as an example.

1. An offer template is created that allows you to buy a Miner III for a huge amount of LPs, making player manufacturer prices seem like a real bargain in comparison. (Note: this offer is primarily of value when there are no manufacturers).

2. An offer template is created that allows you to acquire a Miner III limited run BPC for a ridiculous amount of LPs, making player manufacturer prices seem fair in comparison.

3. An offer template is created that allows you to acquire a Miner III BPO for a ludicrous amount of LPs. This offer template is only dished out a fixed amount of times, creating a small number of player manufacturers. Something cool (requiring alot of design work) is done to make sure that this is done fairly and takes advantage of player's existing investment in research related skills and doesn't nullify or reduce the value of current research points..

4. Some form of "breakthrough" concept has often been discussed for research. An option within the agent offer system would f.ex. be that a few offer templates are made that dish out things such as "Mechanical Engineering Papers", and the actual Miner III BPO offer would be a crafting offer where you bring X papers to the agent and get a BPO in return.

In any case, this is pure future stuff.

allmus
Minmatar
Amistad Annihilate
Posted - 2004.10.13 12:12:00 - [11]
 

just a thought, ever consided leaving the R'D agents and system the way it is and just create cuttoff's every so often?

like at 5,000 points if u were reaseaching a field that gave tech2 ammo out, u could trade in your 5,000 points for a limited run researched BPC max run of the item

have the really good stuff lottery only, but have like a number of ingame bpc's given by research agents
so say 500 people in the game take a BPC of tech2 phased plasma(S), every month, the number could be checked, and if say some people used up all the runs and theres only 390 BPC's left in game, agents could offer another 110 BPC limited runs out to those in that RP gap vaule.

keeping all major tech2 weapons, items, and ship strictly lottery give's the long term player the chance to go after the big score, while people just wanting minor BPC's to make a bit of a profit can work too.
also it would give those players with a huge ammount of RP points already in a field a way to get out without 100% time wasted.
each RP gap value could have a different BPC item
so after 5,000 RP points it could go up to something a little better, until those with huge ammounts of RP's could get BPC runs of large tech2 weapons.

the ammount of run's on the BPC and the ME value would depend on the ammount of RP's gaved to get it.
the example i gave was:
phased ammo(S) tech2 BPC
RP gap value - 1,000(0 ME 50 run's) to 5,000(ME50 1500 runs)

then at 5,001 RP's it goes to ME0 50 runs on the next valued item

just a thought

S'Daria
Posted - 2004.10.13 13:16:00 - [12]
 

Thanks for responding in such detail. I don't know if you would like our ideas on R&D agents, but might as well give them until you say stop, please stop.


Ok, lets go with the premise that there should be no guranteed way to get a BPC or BPO. Now the scientists in game would like a more interactive way of researching rather than this pure luck lottery.

So how about modified lotto system:

1. You talk to an R&D agent like you do today.
2. They give you "Research related missions" that earn you RP points just like Loyalty Points (LPs).
3. Your agent gives you a list of BPs that you can "research towards" and you select 1 on that list.
4. Depending on the complexity of that BP you can turn in a fixed amount of RP for a chance at a BP.
5. You turn in a fixed amount of RP and based on your skills you have a chance for a BP (note that this requires that you actively work for the agent instead of the passive system it is today).
6. The higher your skills the greater the chance.
7. Along the way you may get limited run BPC or some "prototypes" of the module you're working on.


Your skill may give you a 1% bonus chance for each level of the skill or something like that.

The number of RP you gain is dependent on similar factors today, like agent's skill, complexity of research, etc...


Perhaps, as a service, you can turn in your RPs for Tech 2 components.

This modified system would have the element of chance, but be modified by the dedicated skilled scientist.

Skills learned should not only be a requirement to even speak to the agent, but also modify the chance in getting a BP.


I like what was suggested where there would only exist a fixed number of BPO in the game. If so let us know so we can change research. At least we can change research agents if we know we'll never receive a BP.


Please also have limted run BPCs as "almost" research.

I would happly keep researching something even if I got a 1-run Miner III BPC for example.



Thanks for responding to our posts.


Papa Smurf

Posted - 2004.10.13 14:28:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: S'Daria
Thanks for responding in such detail. I don't know if you would like our ideas on R&D agents, but might as well give them until you say stop, please stop.


Ok, lets go with the premise that there should be no guranteed way to get a BPC or BPO. Now the scientists in game would like a more interactive way of researching rather than this pure luck lottery.

So how about modified lotto system:

1. You talk to an R&D agent like you do today.
2. They give you "Research related missions" that earn you RP points just like Loyalty Points (LPs).
3. Your agent gives you a list of BPs that you can "research towards" and you select 1 on that list.
4. Depending on the complexity of that BP you can turn in a fixed amount of RP for a chance at a BP.
5. You turn in a fixed amount of RP and based on your skills you have a chance for a BP (note that this requires that you actively work for the agent instead of the passive system it is today).
6. The higher your skills the greater the chance.
7. Along the way you may get limited run BPC or some "prototypes" of the module you're working on.


Your skill may give you a 1% bonus chance for each level of the skill or something like that.

The number of RP you gain is dependent on similar factors today, like agent's skill, complexity of research, etc...


Perhaps, as a service, you can turn in your RPs for Tech 2 components.

This modified system would have the element of chance, but be modified by the dedicated skilled scientist.

Skills learned should not only be a requirement to even speak to the agent, but also modify the chance in getting a BP.


I like what was suggested where there would only exist a fixed number of BPO in the game. If so let us know so we can change research. At least we can change research agents if we know we'll never receive a BP.


Please also have limted run BPCs as "almost" research.

I would happly keep researching something even if I got a 1-run Miner III BPC for example.



Thanks for responding to our posts.




stop, please stop Wink

The research system isn't being changed atm so it would be more fruitful to go into this discussion deeper at a later point in time.

Anyway, note that this idea breaks an important requirement of the lottery system.

You have given a player a fixed chance to aquire a BP (f.ex. 1% per skill level). If 10000 players with level 5 thus try to acquire a Miner III BPO, roughly 500 BPOs must be distributed. Thus it is no longer possible to control the number of BPOs.

But let's rather continue this discussion at a later date, when the research system is going to be chopped up a bit, and try to stick more with the Shiva issues atm.

S'Daria
Posted - 2004.10.13 14:39:00 - [14]
 

Okay Dokay.

So...err...what do we discuss in this thread that isn't covered already?

Or rather what would you like input from us?


Papa Smurf

Posted - 2004.10.13 14:45:00 - [15]
 

Well, Other Stuff, mostly Wink


sableye
principle of motion
Posted - 2004.10.13 21:21:00 - [16]
 

will a bribing service be implented so we can pay to fix factional standing ect, I heard long ago these were supposed to exist would be nice if they did.

Papa Smurf

Posted - 2004.10.13 21:40:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: sableye
will a bribing service be implented so we can pay to fix factional standing ect, I heard long ago these were supposed to exist would be nice if they did.


No, there will probably never again be a way to translate ISK to standings (except through instamissions that cross the border into the realms of exploiting).

S'Daria
Posted - 2004.10.14 01:46:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Papa Smurf
Originally by: sableye
will a bribing service be implented so we can pay to fix factional standing ect, I heard long ago these were supposed to exist would be nice if they did.


No, there will probably never again be a way to translate ISK to standings (except through instamissions that cross the border into the realms of exploiting).

If your agent asks you to get something, be it minerals, ore, or whatever and you already have the items to instantly finish the mission...is that an exploit?

Example:

My agent asks for 49k of Trit and I happen to have a bunch of it already at my station. Is it an exploit to instantly finish this mission?


Zyrla Bladestorm
Minmatar
Foundation
R0ADKILL
Posted - 2004.10.14 05:29:00 - [19]
 

All your new shiva agent material looks mind blowing papa :)

I am however unfortunately torn completely down the middle by it :P because I've kinda been waiting for building and having a real impact on the world since about the time I got into beta and the only agent mission I could get was taking 1 spiced wine to a station somewhere which I failed to write down (and couldn't remember afterwards - journal didn't exist)

so Er EEK! do I stay in minmatar space and work my ass off getting loyalty points and doing cool missions (I was one of those managed to get a Miner II BPO previously, when it required an insane # of missions and have 9+ in multiple minmatar corps at present, if that shows my dedication to it) Or do I go 60 jumps away with my corp/alliance mates and help build/run our stations ?

Erk Rambling *Kicks self*

Anyhow, my question, Is there any possibility that we will ever be able to Hire an agent to come live in a starbase stucture if we have good enough standings with the corp and enough money to pay for there expenses (wine, women, fast ships and the like) and give us (presumably just kill for simplicity's sake) missions ?

Blazde
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2004.10.14 05:42:00 - [20]
 

Research agents may not be 'changed', but the level 4 ones have been opened up. Currently however all level 4 agents have level 3 research field skills, except for a few that have level 5 skills.

Can we rely on the current field/agent distribution to remain the same when Shiva's released? Is this lack of level 4 fields intentional?

S'Daria
Posted - 2004.10.14 10:23:00 - [21]
 

Papa Smurf, do you want to hear about other suggested mission types?

Like in this thread?


Kretin Arnon
Amarr
Path of the Immortals
Posted - 2004.10.14 15:05:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Kretin Arnon on 14/10/2004 19:39:02
EDIT: Let me update that question.
I've taken a look at EVE-I on the stats of the emperial battleships, and I just wonder if those are the final stats?
Most of them seem pretty weird from a RP point. Here's what I noticed about the battleships from the four empires.

Amarr: The Armageddon is like you would expect an amarr navy ship to be. It's long range and deals laser damage. It's weakness are the same as the Blood Raider ships. The Apocalypse on the other hand is strange. It's a close combat vessel though normally people would use an Arma for that. Also it's fitted with blasters it seems (very non-amarr). I can't figure what the "Quake L" listed under missiles refers to.

Caldari: Again the "small" battleship (the Scorpion) seems to fit what you would expect from a Caldari vessel. Going long range and firering cruise missiles dealing kinetic damage. The Raven deals EM damage as primary, together with explosive and kinetic (must be a weird gun) together with kinetic missiles. It too stays at long range so no short range battleships for the Caldari (understandable).

Gallente: Dominix looks fine. But while it's unlikely to see an Apoc being used as short range platform you'll often see a Megathron in that role. Nobody has told the Gallente navy it seems. The Megathron is long range like the Domininx. Both battleships deal the same type of damage making defending against them easier. The Mega fire explosive cruise missiles though. Overall seems like the easiest ships to fight against.

Minmatar: Though the Minmatar has developed the turrets with the longest range none of their battleship seems to be using them. They're both very short range. The Typhoon doesn't deal explosive damge and the Tempest must have bought the same guns as the Raven. The plus side to these ships is that their armor and shields are resistance weak to the same types of damage.

Papa Smurf

Posted - 2004.10.14 19:24:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: S'Daria
Originally by: Papa Smurf
Originally by: sableye
will a bribing service be implented so we can pay to fix factional standing ect, I heard long ago these were supposed to exist would be nice if they did.


No, there will probably never again be a way to translate ISK to standings (except through instamissions that cross the border into the realms of exploiting).

If your agent asks you to get something, be it minerals, ore, or whatever and you already have the items to instantly finish the mission...is that an exploit?

Example:

My agent asks for 49k of Trit and I happen to have a bunch of it already at my station. Is it an exploit to instantly finish this mission?




'tis only an exploit if the agent happened to be so bugged that the vast majority of your missions are instacompletable. A normal number of insta-completions are to be expected.

Papa Smurf

Posted - 2004.10.14 19:29:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Zyrla Bladestorm
Anyhow, my question, Is there any possibility that we will ever be able to Hire an agent to come live in a starbase stucture if we have good enough standings with the corp and enough money to pay for there expenses (wine, women, fast ships and the like) and give us (presumably just kill for simplicity's sake) missions ?


A pending feature for agents is "agents in space". It has no specs whatsover, but I could imagine that it would suit low sec dwellers. Sponsoring an agent like you suggest could possible be a plausible feature, but it's not on the drawing board atm.

Papa Smurf

Posted - 2004.10.14 19:30:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Blazde
Research agents may not be 'changed', but the level 4 ones have been opened up. Currently however all level 4 agents have level 3 research field skills, except for a few that have level 5 skills.

Can we rely on the current field/agent distribution to remain the same when Shiva's released? Is this lack of level 4 fields intentional?


Not intentional. I have a bug report on it and will try to get it fixed ASAP.

Papa Smurf

Posted - 2004.10.14 19:32:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: S'Daria
Papa Smurf, do you want to hear about other suggested mission types?

Like in this thread?




Poke me again with this about the 20th of Nov Wink

Kretin Arnon
Amarr
Path of the Immortals
Posted - 2004.10.14 19:51:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Kretin Arnon on 14/10/2004 19:53:49
Hm, I just noticed that all the different kinds of navy ships belonging to one faction (like Amarr) deals out diffent kind of damage. Not like the pirate faction were all ships tend do deal only two types of damage.
No wonder it's so hard to tank against those empire ships. Looks like I'm on the wrong side of the fence again.Sad

Zyrla Bladestorm
Minmatar
Foundation
R0ADKILL
Posted - 2004.10.14 23:49:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Kretin Arnon
Edited by: Kretin Arnon on 14/10/2004 19:53:49
Hm, I just noticed that all the different kinds of navy ships belonging to one faction (like Amarr) deals out diffent kind of damage. Not like the pirate faction were all ships tend do deal only two types of damage.
No wonder it's so hard to tank against those empire ships. Looks like I'm on the wrong side of the fence again.Sad


Heh! Angel pirates do/have always done all four damage types (though not neccessarily to the same extent) you've just been spoiled by others Very Happy

GardenerOfEden
Deep Space Fishing
Posted - 2004.10.14 23:59:00 - [29]
 


There was also some talk earlier about bringing back the mission frequency timer for level 4+ agents - this was previously implemented as a stand down period between completed missions but should really have been implemented at the time as a respawn timer on mission offers (to combat the abuse of rejecting offers till get what want which was subsequently countered with the loss of standing). Is it safe to assume that there will not be any mission frequency limits in Shiva ?


Papa Smurf

Posted - 2004.10.15 11:33:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: GardenerOfEden

There was also some talk earlier about bringing back the mission frequency timer for level 4+ agents - this was previously implemented as a stand down period between completed missions but should really have been implemented at the time as a respawn timer on mission offers (to combat the abuse of rejecting offers till get what want which was subsequently countered with the loss of standing). Is it safe to assume that there will not be any mission frequency limits in Shiva ?




Currently no plans of this. There are however some concerns inhouse about whether level 4 missions are way overboard rewards-wise, so there may be some balancing attempts here yet to come. Doubt it'll be the mission timer however.


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