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blankseplocked T2 BPO Holders Make 1/3 of T2 Items (and all the profit?)
 
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darius mclever
Posted - 2010.04.16 21:43:00 - [121]
 

the last thing we need is more t2 bpos. the current way for building t2 is totally fine.
also your escalation way is just another kind of lottery. no thank you.

yes, the invention we got in game doesnt really match the term "invention" as you would use it in the RL. but it matches the well enough.

Vespoi Filar
Posted - 2010.04.16 22:29:00 - [122]
 

What the hell thread necro much?

Torothanax
Posted - 2010.04.17 06:37:00 - [123]
 

Edited by: Torothanax on 17/04/2010 06:47:37
He'll probably never read it but this struck me as funny:
Originally by: Lord Fitz
You still don't get it. It's not a competition.
Everything in Eve is a competition. Invention blows goats compared to bpo production.
Originally by: darius mclever
the last thing we need is more t2 bpos
I think more t2 BPO's is exactly what we need. I think every single invention job should have a very small chance of scoring a t2 BPO. Just don't make it like the orginal lotto with a limited number given out. The items that get invented the most would end up having the most t2 BPOs in circulation. Seems balanced to me. Keep the chance low enough that t2 BPOs don't become as trivial as t1 BPOs though.


Oh and: Posting in an epic necro thread ftw! Like 4-6 days short of being locked.

Magenta Shine
Posted - 2010.05.23 14:15:00 - [124]
 

T2 BPO must be removed! Twisted Evil

Teck Nine
Posted - 2010.08.21 02:16:00 - [125]
 

Edited by: Teck Nine on 21/08/2010 02:38:19
I agree that the people who hold the T2 BPO make alot more. Maybe they should make it where we have to make a T1 BPC and invent it into a T2 BPC but we should get the option of making it into a T2 BPO but there would have to be a little thing where you can research T2 BPC into that 1 T2 BPO but every T2 BPC researched into that T2 BPO that you want to make only gives it a 0.01% out of 100% towords of having a T2 BPO but you would need the same stuff to make the T2 BPC of it to help reserch it into the T2 BPO till it hits 100% making it a useable T2 BPO.

The reason to suck a low % to getting a T2 BPO from T2 BPC is because most players that can afford to do such a thing have a POS and can crank out the T2 BPO

Sed Man
Gallente
Havoc Violence and Chaos
Posted - 2010.08.21 06:03:00 - [126]
 

Originally by: XXXAKTIVE
I personally agree with this, but t2 BPO holders, that payed billions and billions of isk in BPOs will not be happy)))))))))

Still, they are the minority (actually they are the main isk farmers in EVE and the main rm traders in EVE), so I vote +100 for that


I say so what. CCP could remove all T2 BPO's and spawn T2 mods/ships via NPCs. they have an economist and reporting on what is destroyed and built.

T2 BPO owners have a complete advantage over anyone else. Sure compensate them for their investment in ISK... CCP prints that, its cheap....

but the players will leave eve if they get their T2 BPOs requisitioned. happens all the time when peoples houses get taken so the governments can build a freeway.

and really, are these T2 BPO owners really adding value to EVE? They take a greater share of the manufacturing 'game time' discouraging newer players from even trying invention or building their own ships.

It also distorts the market - if someone gets hit by a bus, or their corp aircraft crashes on the way to eve fanfest 2011 what are we gona do then?

Gear Spaceb
Posted - 2010.08.21 17:17:00 - [127]
 

Let's take the most profitable T2 BPO, the Hulk BPO, and look at it.

It costs Hundreds of Billions of ISK to acquire. There are only a handful, as far as I know, thus even at 23/7 production, they only account for 9 percent of Hulk Production.

This is not some super profitable ISK printing machine. What I think most people are overlooking is the fact that it will take 2 - 6 years before any of the profitable T2 BPO's make any profit at all, they can't make copies because the copy speed is 2x normal, so it's just more profitable to throw the BPO into a manufacturing slot 23/7.

And these theoretical high ME T2 BPO's that you think are floating around? They don't exist. T2 BPO's have that crazy research time multiplier like copies, so in order to research a T2 BPO up high, you have to basically add another year or two to your return on investment to achieve profitability.

And let's not forget that most T2 BPO's are not profitable enough to actually use, or profits are so slim that even for them that it's literally a waste to use a manufacturing slot for them.

Are they broken? Yeah, They kinda are. But they're not broken enough to take out of the game.

I have two proposals to make this, in my opinion, a better manufacturing mechanic.

One: Have the ME/PE of the copies used in invention have a small effect on the resulting T2 BPC. Not to make them better than a T2 BPO, but just to narrow the gap a little on the profitability.

Two: Introduce a new invention mechanic that has a rare chance to produce new T2 BPO's for an average ISK investment similar to what they sell for now.

I see this new mechanic as something very complicated, time consuming, and expensive to do, with no guarantee of success. Sort of like Invention+, the outposts of research and manufacturing.

With these two changes, T2 production will become entirely player driven. you want a T2 BPO? Then get to work, and you'll get there eventually (though like an outpost, you'll have a much easier time with a corp/alliance helping you out).

Archestratidas
Posted - 2010.08.21 21:29:00 - [128]
 

Originally by: Castaspella
I would wildly speculate that this small number of individuals make 50%, 75%, 90% or more of the total profit from all of T2 production.


This is indeed a wild speculation and like most random numbers that are simply thrown out there, not even remotely close to the truth.

Teck Nine
Posted - 2010.08.24 10:43:00 - [129]
 

I don't think the T2 BPO should be phased out of the game but players should be able to take a T1 BPO turn it into a T2 BPC and turn that T2 BPC into a T2 BPO through Research and items along with the reserch.

Yes the T2 BPO owners do have an advantage of being able to make T2 BPC of them to sell them and or to build with them.

so to wrap it up give the users to take their T2 BPC into a T2 BPO

Zirse
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.08.24 10:53:00 - [130]
 

Supported!

JIterito
Posted - 2010.08.24 12:26:00 - [131]
 

This problems solves by itself, as soon as the full set of t3 modules and ships will be release.

Really i dont see the point of any of the 2 parts, invention is fine as it is:

-inventors: got low cost bpc (compared whit bpo´s price), but whit limited runs.

-BPO´s holders: They decide to make a huge investment, to maintain a continous production chain.

Some maths for a bpo thats its on sale, for example, prowler bpo (26.5b) if want to chek :(http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1371923)

Materials required for invention:

Minmatarr spaceship datacore: 449.696.00 isk/u
Mechanical enginiering datacore: 385.004.00isk/u
+9runs decriptor:6.747.997.44isk/u
1 [email protected] isk
15 [email protected]

cost per invention:

single invention: 8*449.696+8*385.004+100.000=6.777.600 chance of succes: 30.16% (all required skills lvl 4)

Cost of a 100% chance: 6.777.600/0.3016=22.472.148.54isk

max run invention: 8*449.696+8*385.004+1500000+6.747.997.44= 14.925.597,44isk chance of succes: 18,10%

Cost of a 100% of chance: 14.925.597.44/0.1810=82.461.864,31 isk

number of runs that you will get if you use those 26.5b in invention

For single run copies: 1179 runs @ me -4 pe-4: 1746d 14h. profit: 12m each
For 9 runs copies: 2892 runs @me-6 pe-3:3856d. profit 5m

As you can see, it the sistem is perfect as you can build some of them at the same time if you are a inventor, you will have that time seriously reduced.

if using bpo (supose 10/20): 2892 [email protected] pe 20: 1734d profit: 29m each.

in the long run as you see, those numbers got really near, the diference is when you want to give the money away: in single moment, or over those 5 years of gameplay.


Morcam
Posted - 2010.08.25 02:46:00 - [132]
 

Edited by: Morcam on 25/08/2010 02:57:36

What I don't understand is why people seem to think that we should be protecting T2 BPO owners in the first place. I would prefer obsolescence of them though better invention methods, but I don't see why it would be so terrible to remove them.

They bought into a bad investment. It's not the first time that's happened, and it's not something that's restricted to the T2 BPO market. I could be furious right now that I spent loads of isk amassing x ship before y balance changes came around, but that's just stupid. It isn't CCP's responsibility to protect you from any balance change that might conflict with your checkbook.

I'm fairly in support of the "Higher research on T1 BPO = Higher research on T2 BPC's" but I'm not all for that. This honestly should've been resolved back when invention was first introduced, and now we're just sitting around reaping the negatives.

Misanthra
Posted - 2010.08.25 05:03:00 - [133]
 

Edited by: Misanthra on 25/08/2010 05:14:28
Edited by: Misanthra on 25/08/2010 05:04:13
Originally by: Morcam
They bought into a bad investment. It's not the first time that's happened, and it's not something that's restricted to the T2 BPO market. I could be furious right now that I spent loads of isk amassing x ship before y balance changes came around, but that's just stupid. It isn't CCP's responsibility to protect you from any balance change that might conflict with your checkbook.


slight difference between nerfing ships and taking away up to 16 billion isk investments. Falcon after its nerf was still a very capable ship (in fact still remains one of 2 faildari ships people x-train for specifically, drake the other one). Loss of t2 bpo's bit more of sting compared to falcon not having omfg e-war range to their owner lol.

No real way to get rid of these things. Lots of money tied up in them. Pick your markets before you invent all I can say. T2 bpo owners aren't taking all the money Trust me I know, was making pretty decent isk per month pure invention. OWned a few t2 bpo's as well....they made me more money getting resold than they did in production to be honest. Secret to indy success....don't be a lemming making the same things half the server is making.

1000 people making stealth bombers casue they are the new black of nulll sec fleet warfare gonna hurt the market to the point where only t2 owners make money...mainly because you have 900 (I will pull 100 sb bpos out of thin air, probably much less) people cutting each others throats not charging for datacores and invention time or pos fuel costs if a pos owner). If no bpo's...many ship markets would still suck cause of this cuthtroat imo. Edit: look at marauders, rather tight market historically, no T2 bpo.

SurrenderMonkey
Posted - 2010.08.25 05:14:00 - [134]
 

Edited by: SurrenderMonkey on 25/08/2010 05:30:29

Originally by: Morcam
Edited by: Morcam on 25/08/2010 02:57:36

What I don't understand is why people seem to think that we should be protecting T2 BPO owners in the first place. I would prefer obsolescence of them though better invention methods, but I don't see why it would be so terrible to remove them.


I don't see why it would be so terrible to set your wallet balance to -20 trillion. No skin off my ass. People are always very liberal when it comes to taking away other people's hard work.

With that said, it has nothing to do with "protecting T2 BPO owners" - it's about the fact that it's not okay to go around arbitrarily deleting hard-earned assets merely because some infant child who is too lazy or too stupid to acquire such assets for him/herself is jealous. And, yes, that's what the BPO whining is really about. It has nothing to do with fairness or the welfare of the game.

Quote:
They bought into a bad investment.


Uh, no they didn't. You're trying to arbitrarily turn it into a bad investment. At present, it's a perfectly okay investment.

Quote:
I'm fairly in support of the "Higher research on T1 BPO = Higher research on T2 BPC's" but I'm not all for that.


That plan is idiotic for reasons that have nothing to do with BPOs. The cheaper, easier, and more accessible something is, the less it's worth. You literally just asked for invention to produce less money. You don't know it, but you did.

James Moroci
Posted - 2010.08.25 05:38:00 - [135]
 

stop whining ffs. i own a ishtar bpo, its not worth buildig it. profit is to love. so its in copy constantly- the golden days where u could make ****load of isk having a t2 bpo is ower... atleast if u have to buy the stuff to make em like i do.

Creiter
Posted - 2010.08.25 05:47:00 - [136]
 

What unlife cannot be killed.
*waves an iron cross and holy water*
BEGONE NECROPOSTING!

Jiao Zelig
Coffee Lovers Brewing Club
Posted - 2010.08.25 22:21:00 - [137]
 

I think this is a great idea. Maybe not a 1:1 transformation of Tech 1 BPC ME to Tech 2 BPC ME, but something where invention can produce a Tech 2 BPC without totally awful waste.

The relationship would need to be inverse and geometric (increasing T1 researching would not provide as great an improvement as doing research on T2 BPOs). Also, I was thinking that each type of item would have a difficulty modifier that would create quite a bit more T2 waste. Normal modules might have a difficulty modifier of 1 (no difficulty), weapons a difficulty modifier of .5 and ships a difficulty modifier of .1, for example. Different ships might have different difficulty modifiers (frigates might be as high as .5 while battleships might be .1).

The equation to go from Tech 1 BPC ME to Tech 2 BPC ME might look like:
[Tech 2 BPC ME] = (([Difficulty Modifier] * [Tech 1 BPC ME]) ^ .5) - 4

For example, a 0 ME T1 BPC becomes -4 ME T2 BPC (just like currently), while a 100 ME T1 BPC would become 6 (with a difficulty modifier of 1), 3 (with a difficulty modifier of .5) or -1 (with a difficulty modifier of .1). If the T1 BPO is researched to 200, those values become 10, 6 and 0, respectively.

These are just examples and the whole system would need balancing but it provides an opportunity to benefit from good T1 research without making it as good as current T2 BPOs.

Morcam
Posted - 2010.08.25 22:38:00 - [138]
 

Edited by: Morcam on 25/08/2010 22:44:32
Edited by: Morcam on 25/08/2010 22:40:35
Originally by: SurrenderMonkey

I don't see why it would be so terrible to set your wallet balance to -20 trillion. No skin off my ass. People are always very liberal when it comes to taking away other people's hard work.

With that said, it has nothing to do with "protecting T2 BPO owners" - it's about the fact that it's not okay to go around arbitrarily deleting hard-earned assets merely because some infant child who is too lazy or too stupid to acquire such assets for him/herself is jealous. And, yes, that's what the BPO whining is really about. It has nothing to do with fairness or the welfare of the game.

When did I say to delete them? And what are you talking about? My wallet is sitting at a couple hundred mil, and I'm perfectly happy with how much I've got. I have no interest in T2 production and I never have. Trying to blindly accuse me of something I'm not isn't a great idea?

I do have something against something that exists that does make huge amounts of money, but cannot be obtained except through other players. Players set stupid, arbitrary prices on items, which is why it's ridiculous that BPO's exist when players can no longer obtain them. They're now just items that conflict with a renewable source of T2 production. I don't have a problem with T2 BPO owners making the same amount of money/effort as inventors, but as it is, that doesn't appear to be the case.

Quote:
Uh, no they didn't. You're trying to arbitrarily turn it into a bad investment. At present, it's a perfectly okay investment.

Your point being...? Stuff like this happens all the time in ships. There are people out there who HAVE played the market for 15 billion isk based on balance changes. Look at some of the sell orders out there in Jita worth billions.

Quote:
That plan is idiotic for reasons that have nothing to do with BPOs. The cheaper, easier, and more accessible something is, the less it's worth. You literally just asked for invention to produce less money. You don't know it, but you did.

Ok. That's cool. I never came up with the solution in the first place? I'm sure there's a better solution out there that CCP could certainly come up with. I don't assume to compete with their creative development team.

Quote:
No real way to get rid of these things. Lots of money tied up in them. Pick your markets before you invent all I can say.

How is this idea related? What makes you think just working around older players because there isn't a game mechanic to compete is a good idea?

As just an afterthought, it might be interesting if T2 BPO's were obtainable through some kind of invention system, but they could only be used in 0.0/low-sec posses.

Bhattran
Posted - 2010.08.25 23:53:00 - [139]
 

The ME of a BPO should have an effect on the invented BPC, no way it should be a 1:1 conversion but there should be some improvement and I'd like to see a scaling level where a BPO that has 10% waste perhaps yields a BPC with 20%, a BPO with 17% waste yields one with 8.5% waste. Unresearched BPO's would yield 50% waste on invented BPC's.


Misanthra
Posted - 2010.08.26 01:48:00 - [140]
 

Originally by: Morcam
As just an afterthought, it might be interesting if T2 BPO's were obtainable through some kind of invention system, but they could only be used in 0.0/low-sec posses.


So you want to give null sec alliances the moon goo to make the stuff, and the t2 bpos to make em cheaper?. Adding further to the rift empire peeps complain about between empire money and null sec.

And this also puts the ball in the older players court. Not too many 1 yr players have the support base to support even low sec operations. JF...required, higher the skill the better. Decent cyno alt with maxed pos gun skills. Both of these accounts need to run at same time so abilituy to plex one if not both monthly highly recommended (again a skill older players pick up as they have the wallet to fund money making ventures). And a bit of pvp experience since pirates do sometimes come off gates so being versed in fighting or avoiding them highly recomennded. And financial resources to create deathstars and to buy fuel for months (unlike an empire pos, really is just better to buy bulk and wake up the cyno alt with pos management rights once in a while)

Morcam
Posted - 2010.08.26 20:02:00 - [141]
 

Originally by: Misanthra
Originally by: Morcam
As just an afterthought, it might be interesting if T2 BPO's were obtainable through some kind of invention system, but they could only be used in 0.0/low-sec posses.


So you want to give null sec alliances the moon goo to make the stuff, and the t2 bpos to make em cheaper? Adding further to the rift empire peeps complain about between empire money and null sec.


When did this happen? L4 mission runners already walk away with more than I can make by mining in 0.0...

Also, it's not necessarily about giving the 0.0 alliances more money. I'd be okay if you could produce them in lowsec as well, as I already said. It's about getting the BPO's out of their locked up stations where they have zero risk.

Quote:
And this also puts the ball in the older players court. Not too many 1 yr players have the support base to support even low sec operations. JF...required, higher the skill the better. Decent cyno alt with maxed pos gun skills. Both of these accounts need to run at same time so ability to plex one if not both monthly highly recommended (again a skill older players pick up as they have the wallet to fund money making ventures). And a bit of pvp experience since pirates do sometimes come off gates so being versed in fighting or avoiding them highly recommended. And financial resources to create deathstars and to buy fuel for months (unlike an empire pos, really is just better to buy bulk and wake up the cyno alt with pos management rights once in a while)

I don't think you've spent much time in 0.0. I can fly around in my 0.0 home completely freely. I've never even seen a pirate gatecamp in the lowsec-0.0 gap. Also, you're saying this as if T2 production is something to be taken upon lightly. Profitable invention requires quite an investment as well. As well as the players who own the T2 BPO's making quite an investment.

Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
Posted - 2010.08.27 14:50:00 - [142]
 

Just insert a very rare chance of an invention job turning out to be a BPO and any problem with T2 is solved.

It's no longer a lottery but a grind, grind hard enough and you'll eventually hit that statistical payout... Ok so it's still a lottery but it's a lottery the grind monkeys can appreciate.

No nerfing needed to current T2, more prints in the long run will be the nerf in itself.

Caldari Citizen20090217
Posted - 2010.08.27 15:20:00 - [143]
 

Seeing alot of people saying that a t2 BPO costs alot to buy, thus is balanced. That is the case now, but remember that the original owners came by these things through luck, and very little time investment.

In some markets they gimp all invention attempts, if theres low volume, high cost items the t2 bpo will have a huge advantage and can squeese all inventors out. Its only in high volume t2 items that inventors can compete, and even then the bpo holders make a killing essentially 'cos they rolled a lucky die back in the day.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2010.08.27 16:39:00 - [144]
 

Originally by: Caldari Citizen20090217
Seeing alot of people saying that a t2 BPO costs alot to buy, thus is balanced. That is the case now, but remember that the original owners came by these things through luck, and very little time investment...

If the gripe had been raised back then it would have meaning, but as very few (if any) of the prints are in the hands of the original recipients that argument has no merit.

Invention can generate insane amount of ISK when done properly whereas the income from a print is more or less static and does not scale at all .. R&D on the print takes it out of queue -> reduced income.

The ONLY thing that needs to be added (note: not removed) is a post-processing step to invention;
Inventor spends ISK, time and/or materials to refine a T2 BPC, improving ME thus reducing manufacturing costs and increasing "per run" profits.

Just one or two points of ME is staggeringly huge when building the bigger items (ie. anything but mid/lowslot mods) .. combined with the volume that any respectable inventor churns out Shocked

Ricc Deckard
Trux Germani
Ev0ke
Posted - 2010.08.31 07:43:00 - [145]
 

Originally by: Danton Marcellus
Just insert a very rare chance of an invention job turning out to be a BPO and any problem with T2 is solved.

It's no longer a lottery but a grind, grind hard enough and you'll eventually hit that statistical payout... Ok so it's still a lottery but it's a lottery the grind monkeys can appreciate.

No nerfing needed to current T2, more prints in the long run will be the nerf in itself.


THIS !!!!

Totally my opinion. Give Inventors a very slim chance to achieve a BPO via Invention. Would fix the problem imo.

o/
Ricc Deckard

Horizonist
Yulai Guard 2nd Fleet
Yulai Federation
Posted - 2010.10.19 11:53:00 - [146]
 

I am also in favor of simply seeding out more T2 BPOs in order to run up competition.

GizzyBoy
Posted - 2010.10.19 14:35:00 - [147]
 

Epic Necro, My former ceo from 2 years ago posted on this one..
I used to care, I care less now, if there's anything you learn in this game its that assets == Liability, Sure you can have a bunch of sov, Massese of hs/ls towers , Loads of shiney t2 bpo's but untill you try to turn those into isk, gdamn youll have pvp tears, carebare tears, and alliance wtf aren't you pawning that @#$% from sunrise to sunset.

With opportunity comes great responsibility.

Theres also gangs of people just itching to catch you and wardec you from now untill eternity till you hand over the bpo.

Invention, Its Not perfect, its the ugly duckling for sure, But at some point its turned out to be a semi pretty but not totally ******ed swan. you invest and work those bpc's you profit,

Vincardi
Caldari
Posted - 2010.10.19 16:41:00 - [148]
 

Edited by: Vincardi on 19/10/2010 16:44:52

+1 with OP,
and please make more T2 BPO available on the market sold by npc or what ever you call it. ccp seller..
Every time i look in the market for a T2 BPO, there is nothing, NOTHING....

But yet, there is the name of the BPO.
Why have the name but nothing to be sold or buy.?
this seriously needs a fix.


Sephiroth CloneIIV
Rim Worlds Republic
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2010.10.19 19:32:00 - [149]
 

Edited by: Sephiroth CloneIIV on 19/10/2010 19:34:03
Originally by: Ydyp Ieva
Invention was never meant to mass produce T2 ships. Only to give another option to players to acquire T2 stuff and making sure the owners of a T2 BPO doesn't go way out of the prices. As if they went up higher, more people would start invention. So if you ask me CCP achieved what they wanted to reach with invention in the first place.


OK I don't get these arguments, invention was designed to give a alternative method to developing t2 items to BPO's? Getting a BPO of a tech 2 item spawned is imposable being a finite number existing at the ending of the lottery.

How else do you mass produce a t2 ship, what if the ship was released after the lottery ended?

If invention is not supposed to be the primary source of production of t2, then why stop seeding BPO's, unless it was done to only enrich the profits of a few players who got them in the time window long ago.

CCP got to really evaluate this, having a secondary subpar method of producing tech 2 the only way people can do it joining the game who were not around during a lottery years ago.

Sephiroth CloneIIV
Rim Worlds Republic
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2010.10.19 19:43:00 - [150]
 

Originally by: Danton Marcellus
Just insert a very rare chance of an invention job turning out to be a BPO and any problem with T2 is solved.

It's no longer a lottery but a grind, grind hard enough and you'll eventually hit that statistical payout... Ok so it's still a lottery but it's a lottery the grind monkeys can appreciate.

No nerfing needed to current T2, more prints in the long run will be the nerf in itself.


Best idea ever. It uses the current skills used to make tech 2, and it is kind of a lottery anyone can do but involves work, luck, and skills.

If a ship is in demand more people will be inventing, bpc's, so more of a chance to get a bpo of it to help producing it improving supply and demand. It wouldn't be taking away anything other people (like BPO's, while unfair would suck for person holding on to them just vanish) have but having it stop be a exclusive once in a lifetime opportunity that's unbalanced to new players who were not in the lotto.


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