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Lakhthaar
STK Scientific
IT Alliance
Posted - 2009.10.23 00:38:00 - [91]
 

Removing T2 BPOs or nerfing them is rediculous. It's unfair? So what, life isn't fair. Eve isn't fair. It cost billions to purchase them and the rate of return is 3 years or more. If you want this unfair advantage gather up some ISK and buy your own T2 BPO. It's not impossible.

Having said that I think a small buff in invention would be appropriate. But just a small one.

T2 BPOs are a part of Eve history. Don't screw it up for the veterans that have worked so hard for so long.








Maobih Vanire
Posted - 2009.10.23 01:16:00 - [92]
 

Edited by: Maobih Vanire on 24/10/2009 06:48:33
Originally by: Castaspella

This proposes absolutely zero change to T2 BPO functionality, while allowing everyone a chance at competitively producing T2 items.



i think that we need to get back on topic and stop discussing if bpo should or should not be removed from the game.... tbh: i don't see this ever happening... so... it is pointles to spend time talking about it. which as you can see the original posters idea had nothing to do with and discuss things that are more in line with what the original poster was trying to address which appears to me was: ways to address the high amount of waste involved with invention and the difficulty it presents to being profitable in your results, and be more competitive with that of the the bpo owners.

Maobih Vanire
Posted - 2009.10.24 06:36:00 - [93]
 

Edited by: Maobih Vanire on 24/10/2009 08:13:49
imo: the first thing that we need to look at is what cpp has done for other aspects of building. that being rather consistently the following two things:

there is a skill to reduce waste. (there is no such thing for invention)
with respect to blueprints there is me/pe (this has no impact currently in invention)

invention has three things that are able to impact invention:

using a meta item to increase chance, and is not useful using in all cases
using a decryptor, which is almost in all cases not cost effective
and your skill in the relevant areas for the item being invented. (eg: caldari sse and me for an onyx)

to me...

adding into the game what the OP proposed something that relies on the original bpo me/pe as a baseline
adding a skill that maybe increases (increasing me/pe reduces waste) ME and PE by 2 or 3 and gets the base me/pe closer 0 (vs the 50% negative)
and lastly finding a way to decrease the current cost of decryptors

would for the most part address most of the issues related to being relatively competitive with bpos and also be in line with what ccp has done in all other areas of building and recycling.

the meta aspect atm is totally pointless. it is not cost effective in all the cases that i have considered and i am considering that it should be either returned to the inventor on a 50% basis or removed from invention.

most invention is not profitable atm. if people spent the time to look at is this something that makes me a profit... vs just doing it i think that they would be surprised.

Darkdood
Posted - 2009.10.27 19:32:00 - [94]
 

I've said for ages they should simply allow people to do research on BPC's. Even though it can add time/cost to the inventors chain it gives the people making high value items like ships the ability to keep up with the T2 BPO holders.

Even if the case of ships like the Anshar that there is no BPO for it could be balanced. I mean seriously 4 months of lab time to get it from -2 ME to 2 ME. Yes its totally worth it but for most modules it probably won't be. Depending on how long it takes to do the lab work etc etc.

Sig Sour
Posted - 2009.10.27 19:43:00 - [95]
 

Eve is a harsh world. When the T2 BPO's are deleted, all of the time invested into making the invention and exploration mechanics will finally shine.

"I remember when they actually had tech two blue print originals in this game." - Eve Player (some day in the future)

skye orionis
Posted - 2009.10.27 21:49:00 - [96]
 

I don't mind keeping T2 BPOs, as long as we can get Devs to make comments abotu fixing the T2 BPO problem and stressing out the holders who will live in fear of their BPO being rendered worthless.

So... anyway, here's an idea - why not allow ME research to be performed on those BPC's that are produced by invention? You can invest research time in invented BPC's so taht you can get better profits, yes you now need to slow down your whole production process in return for better profits, but your patience is rewarded.

offcopy
Caldari
OffBeat Creations
Posted - 2009.10.28 00:59:00 - [97]
 

Originally by: skye orionis
I don't mind keeping T2 BPOs, as long as we can get Devs to make comments abotu fixing the T2 BPO problem and stressing out the holders who will live in fear of their BPO being rendered worthless.

So... anyway, here's an idea - why not allow ME research to be performed on those BPC's that are produced by invention? You can invest research time in invented BPC's so taht you can get better profits, yes you now need to slow down your whole production process in return for better profits, but your patience is rewarded.


i would be up for this, as any good inventor would have a stoke of t2 bpc to build at any given time.

darius mclever
Posted - 2009.10.28 01:06:00 - [98]
 

imho making the t1 bpc ME/PE level affect the t2 bpc level might be worth more.

maybe 10% of the ME/PE bonus survive and get added on top of the base -4/-4 ?

Jinx Barker
Caldari
GFB Scientific
Posted - 2009.10.28 12:19:00 - [99]
 

OK, OP is an imbecile - look it up if you do not know the word.

Invention has killed T2 BPOs status as "ISK PRINTING MACHINE" - at the moment if you are good, have capital, and have at least some brains, using invention you can make at least 2x as much ISK/year as the BPO user who builds from the BPO.

All those screaming about invention not working are obviously inept individuals who have failed one too many times. Like the socialists and communists who subscribe to the notion of "from everyone according to their abilities, and to everyone according to their needs." Sorry ladies, EVE is not a Marxist place, although it has communist corporations, work for your T2 BPO with a 1% profit margin - just like everyone else did.

In any event, I am making more from Invention than I am making from my T2 BPOs, this should tell you something.
Find the right item, research the market, and actually spend time on finding a profitable item(s) to invent - and go at it, or fail, and stay in the gutter.


Slade Cale
New Eden Trinity
Posted - 2009.10.29 12:19:00 - [100]
 

I might be an inexperienced player, but I had originally hoped that invention would involve more actual...invention. That people specializing in invention would be able to create "modified" ships based upon originals. This ship might be researched to have an extra rig slot, this ship might have more shields, this ship might have more capacitor or more resistance to certain kinds of damage or is faster...the possibilities would be endless, and it would be a step in the right direction for actual creation within the EVE universe. Right now, players can only create what already exists.

I would like to see a change where inventors and explorers create new items from old ones and found technology, or research within a subset of technology (ie. Shield Management or some such). To me it would make EVE more flexible as well as providing a different job for inventors than doing something that is already being done, and that is producing what other people are already producing, albeit at a faster rate, and it would make the skills that an inventor has trained more applicable to what he or she is researching.

Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
Posted - 2009.10.29 15:18:00 - [101]
 

People are imagining there are issues where there aren't none, and totally ignoring how the market works.

As an inventor, you can invent any product.

Thus, if you're concerned about profit, as people seem to be, you will find the most profitable products and invent those.

Bam. All other T2 BPOs thus are non-issues, as 95% of them make products that barely make any profits from the BPO let alone make as much as inventing the more profitable items.

Now, how much profit can you make, well BPO owners couldn't possible supply all this market, so the prices begin to rise. As prices rise, more and more inventors take notice of this market, and begin to start inventing, the supply gets dramatically increased. (In these more profitable markets inventors can make up 80-90% of the supply).

Eventually the profit drops to the point where only people inventing in extreme bulk for tiny margins can compete, and the rest move on to other products.

Thus, the best way to increase profit as an inventor, is to get to new products first, and have less other inventors to compete with. This is actually achieved by making inventing more difficult, and introducing new items. New items typically make good profit when introduced, but for shorter and shorter periods after each patch, as TENS of THOUSANDS of inventors descend on the market.

The problem with ME research of BPCs is that the -VE ME of invention actually has little to nothing to do with balancing vs T2 BPOs, and everything to do with balancing the decryptors, the weapons you use against other inventors who don't know how to work out which one to use. Even though you can start with a product with 50% 'wastage factor' that can translate to only another 1-2% in the actual 'extra cost' of that item over a well researched BPO, as many parts of many BPs are not subject to waste, or it doesn't affect the cost significantly anyway.

With T2 BPOs one of the following must be true:
- T2 BPOs are overpowered compared to how much they sell for, this being the case, you must proceed to the for sale forum and purchase one yourself.
- T2 BPOs are underpowered, and dropping in price faster than they extra profit they could make over a single slot of invention, thus you should point and laugh, because clearly you're better off inventing.

Comparing T2 BPOs to Invention for market share, and thinking that has anything to do with profits is incredibly misinformed. In fact in many cases the profit on Inventing items WITH T2 BPOs is higher than on inventing those without, because people think that since no T2 BPO exists, it must be profitable, and the market gets flooded with people too lazy to do the calculations to find that other more profitable T2 item to invent that DOES have a BPO.

The only 'niche markets' where T2 BPOs can even have an impact on the price, are those where the the supply from T2 BPOs outstrips market demand, and in those cases prices will continue to fall until it's not worth even the T2 BPO owners building anymore, and in some cases further, as T2 items don't always refine into the material used to build them, many items out there are selling for under T2 BPO build cost, yes that's right, some T2 BPOs LOSE money (stupid owners). There are over 10,000 T2 BPOs, most of which are kept in continual production, the most profitable of which makes a tiny fraction of what you can make in any profession, or a tiny fraction of a good moons worth, the rest make in many cases a good deal less than inventing the more profitable items.

Removing T2 BPOs, would increase prices on the 'useless' items, it would increase the 'number' of inventors in the market, but you lack a firm grasp of the Eve economy if you think for one second that it's going to make a profit difference to invention. Invention is such an established mechanic now that it can be done in incredible mass amounts, multiple characters operating on tiny % profits still more than pay for their subscriptions over a month.

Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
Posted - 2009.10.29 15:24:00 - [102]
 

The only way to guarantee an increase in the margins of any activity in Eve, is to make it more difficult. The more difficult (or new) it is, the less people want to, or are able to do it, thus the greater profits. As soon as people have worked into a rhythm, profits drop to the lowest profit people are willing to accept in order to meet the demand. That's how the economy works and it's totally immune to influence from CCP or T2 BPOs or anything else you care to name.

Fortuna Cournot
Caldari
Whiskey Loners
Whiskey Loners Alliance
Posted - 2009.10.30 13:48:00 - [103]
 

Edited by: Fortuna Cournot on 30/10/2009 14:17:55

transform t2 bpo into 3 max-run bpc. done.

------
Law and Order.

Grarr Bexx
Posted - 2009.10.31 19:24:00 - [104]
 

Originally by: Fortuna Cournot
Edited by: Fortuna Cournot on 30/10/2009 14:17:55

transform t2 bpo into 3 max-run bpc. done.

------
Law and Order.


Laughing

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2009.10.31 22:20:00 - [105]
 

Originally by: Maobih Vanire

a) adding into the game what the OP proposed something that relies on the original bpo me/pe as a baseline

B) adding a skill that maybe increases (increasing me/pe reduces waste) ME and PE by 2 or 3 and gets the base me/pe closer 0 (vs the 50% negative)

c) finding a way to decrease the current cost of decryptors




a) fully supported and the original idea by CCP. Probably not implemented because of some programming hurdle.

b) not bad but the production efficiency skills alredy affect production, even T2 production.
So the skill would worjkk reducing the negative ME/PE of the invented BPC, without ever moving them to positive without the use of decryptors.

c) it will require to split the decryptors in 3 groups: ships, modules and rigs, with different chances to drop.
Currently decryptors are priced based on the most rewarding job where you can use them, making them almost useless for the low return jobs.


Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2009.11.01 01:15:00 - [106]
 

Originally by: Slade Cale
I might be an inexperienced player, but I had originally hoped that invention would involve more actual...invention. That people specializing in invention would be able to create "modified" ships based upon originals. This ship might be researched to have an extra rig slot, this ship might have more shields, this ship might have more capacitor or more resistance to certain kinds of damage or is faster...the possibilities would be endless, and it would be a step in the right direction for actual creation within the EVE universe. Right now, players can only create what already exists.

I would like to see a change where inventors and explorers create new items from old ones and found technology, or research within a subset of technology (ie. Shield Management or some such). To me it would make EVE more flexible as well as providing a different job for inventors than doing something that is already being done, and that is producing what other people are already producing, albeit at a faster rate, and it would make the skills that an inventor has trained more applicable to what he or she is researching.


T3 and reverse eenginering.

And no, with a single shared world you can't have 300 variants of each ship.

Slade Cale
New Eden Trinity
Posted - 2009.11.01 04:57:00 - [107]
 

Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Slade Cale
I might be an inexperienced player, but I had originally hoped that invention would involve more actual...invention. That people specializing in invention would be able to create "modified" ships based upon originals. This ship might be researched to have an extra rig slot, this ship might have more shields, this ship might have more capacitor or more resistance to certain kinds of damage or is faster...the possibilities would be endless, and it would be a step in the right direction for actual creation within the EVE universe. Right now, players can only create what already exists.

I would like to see a change where inventors and explorers create new items from old ones and found technology, or research within a subset of technology (ie. Shield Management or some such). To me it would make EVE more flexible as well as providing a different job for inventors than doing something that is already being done, and that is producing what other people are already producing, albeit at a faster rate, and it would make the skills that an inventor has trained more applicable to what he or she is researching.


T3 and reverse eenginering.

And no, with a single shared world you can't have 300 variants of each ship.


Why not? You already keep track of how many hundreds of characters in each system that are just variants of each other based on skills. If it's just numbers, (ie. fittings and statistics) why can't they be kept track of? T3 is a good start, but I would like to see a bit more actual uniqueness for people brought into EVE...It's the one thing that I find EVE truly missing, and to be able to have, or create unique ships that everyone has a chance to buy, well, that truly would be something.

Fullmetal Jackass
Posted - 2009.11.01 05:57:00 - [108]
 

Originally by: Lakhthaar
Removing T2 BPOs or nerfing them is rediculous. It's unfair? So what, life isn't fair. Eve isn't fair. It cost billions to purchase them and the rate of return is 3 years or more.
Then you made a stupid purchace and the person that sold it to you laughed all the way to the bank and then home again. Welcome to investment bubbles. Someone over paying on the secondary market isn't justification for continuing a broken mechanic in game. The prices are just going to keep going up without new supply or an alternative.

BPO's need a nerf, or Invention needs to be more competetive. I'd be happy with either.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2009.11.01 09:12:00 - [109]
 

Edited by: Venkul Mul on 01/11/2009 09:13:51
Originally by: Slade Cale
Originally by: Venkul Mul

T3 and reverse eenginering.

And no, with a single shared world you can't have 300 variants of each ship.


Why not? You already keep track of how many hundreds of characters in each system that are just variants of each other based on skills. If it's just numbers, (ie. fittings and statistics) why can't they be kept track of? T3 is a good start, but I would like to see a bit more actual uniqueness for people brought into EVE...It's the one thing that I find EVE truly missing, and to be able to have, or create unique ships that everyone has a chance to buy, well, that truly would be something.


You know what "show info" on each ships every time you see it will do?

What having 300 different variants of each ship will do to the database?

Currently when you do show info on a ship it call a relatively short list comprised by several frigates and variants, a few destroyer and variant, several cruisers and variants, a few BC and variants, a few BS and variants, a small number of capitals/supercapitals and a few industrial/mining ships. 281 in total if I have,'t missed some.

Add even a "invented" variant with different base stat:

- 1 slot switched between high/medium/low = x6 number of different ships
- a bit of HP trade between two of shield/armor/hull = x6
- a bit of trade between PG and CPU = x2

the above number increase by 6x6x2= 72 times, i.e. 20.232 models.

Now try a little experiment: do a search on your computer for a file named test, first time in a directory with 281 entry, next time in one with 20K entries. Time your research and you will see why it is not feasible.

Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass

BPO's need a nerf, or Invention needs to be more competetive. I'd be happy with either.



So it boil down to the usual point, unmotivated envy.


Fullmetal Jackass
Posted - 2009.11.01 09:45:00 - [110]
 

Originally by: Lord Fitz
The only way to guarantee an increase in the margins of any activity in Eve, is to make it more difficult. The more difficult (or new) it is, the less people want to, or are able to do it, thus the greater profits. As soon as people have worked into a rhythm, profits drop to the lowest profit people are willing to accept in order to meet the demand. That's how the economy works and it's totally immune to influence from CCP or T2 BPOs or anything else you care to name.
That's some nice theory crafting there. CCP can do anything they want to the market. They for the most part don't though, unless there is a game altering imbalance.

If one person or a couple people can produce the exact same item for significatly less, they can undercut everyone else. Or they can sell for the same price and make more money per item. Either way they win.

In eve, people buy the lowest priced item that's convenient to get to. Even if it's .01 isk cheaper. A bpo hold, who already makes more more per item sold, can drop his prices lower then anyone else and still turn a profit. That means his items will always sell first. Sure if there's enough demand, he can't effectivly manipulate the market, but he has a huge advantage in that he makes isk faster and with alot less effort. It's not how much you make so much as how much time and effort it takes you to do it.

The only reason people sell them is because there rich people willing to part with large sums of isk, and the owner is probably tired of building. No one sells a bpo so they can get into invention.

Fullmetal Jackass
Posted - 2009.11.01 10:06:00 - [111]
 

Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass

BPO's need a nerf, or Invention needs to be more competetive. I'd be happy with either.
So it boil down to the usual point, unmotivated envy.
Way to quote one line out of context and then apply your own interpretation.

No, it comes down to fair business practice. In the real world people would find a way to make production more effeicent and in that way compete with established builders. In game it's fixed. One method of procution is way better then the other. The one that is way better is artifically rendered out of reach for most players. There are too many "isk for free" and "isk for little effort" sources that are controlable by few players in game.

There's enough "old money shutting out everyone else" in the real world. Who want's to deal with it in game? You want lots of money, work for it. Advantages are fine, creates discord. T2 BPOs and high end moons take it too far. They are self propagating.

Castaspella
Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design
Posted - 2009.11.27 09:36:00 - [112]
 

Originally by: Lord Fitz
The only way to guarantee an increase in the margins of any activity in Eve, is to make it more difficult. The more difficult (or new) it is, the less people want to, or are able to do it, thus the greater profits. As soon as people have worked into a rhythm, profits drop to the lowest profit people are willing to accept in order to meet the demand. That's how the economy works and it's totally immune to influence from CCP or T2 BPOs or anything else you care to name.

I think we are quite in agreement on this (at least as it applies to industrial pursuits) - Idea which brings me back to my initial proposal. One elegant side effect of having the base T1 BPC's ME and PE impact the T2 BPC is that to be competitive in inventing, a player would have to secure high quality T1 BPCs - thereby raising the difficulty bar for invention. Not only that, it would reduce the rapid changing of product lines that inventors focus on, which would serve to elevate players with a product specialty.

Tiny Tove
Posted - 2009.11.27 10:17:00 - [113]
 

Invention sets the price, BPOs set the volume.

ChaoticDemon
Posted - 2010.01.07 06:07:00 - [114]
 

I would like some way of increasing the me/pe/runs from invention whether is from fixing the implants adding new skills or going based off bpc started with. Even 3 new skills would be great have 1 each for me/pe and runs say add +2 or 3/lvl to me/pe and for runs can be based off of bp type say +1 for ships/rigs +10 for modules/ammo or have based on lvl of skill say 1 for lvl 1, 3 for 2, 6 for 3, 10 for 4, and 15 for 5 etc. even if it was a rank 20 skill and only available from exploration would be great

Emerald Dreams
Gallente
Emerald Dreams Finance Ltd.
Posted - 2010.01.07 17:50:00 - [115]
 

I support the idea !

Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
Posted - 2010.01.21 20:36:00 - [116]
 

Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass
That's some nice theory crafting there. CCP can do anything they want to the market. They for the most part don't though, unless there is a game altering imbalance.


I'm not sure you read me, the process I describe is the way humans work, CCP can't change that, they can change drop rates or the processes that lead to item creation, but in the end, the constant, predictable outcome, is how people will react to those changes, and it is always the same.

Quote:
If one person or a couple people can produce the exact same item for significatly less, they can undercut everyone else. Or they can sell for the same price and make more money per item. Either way they win.


You still don't get it. It's not a competition. The amount of profit you can make is not at all dependent on how much profit someone else with a BPO makes, because the production from BPOs is finite. The amount of profit you can make is determined by the minimum amount people are willing to accept to fill the gap between the BPO supply and the market demand. And that is determined by how hard / easy inventing is.

It's actually inventors that set the price, the BPO owners can't undercut them because they will simply be bought up, and resold at a higher profit by someone else who didn't even have to own the BPO. This can happen indefinitely until the market demand is met by inventors. Yes, BPO owners will make more isk per item on the specific item they have a BPO for, however if you look at the difference in profit they are making vs an inventor, for that specific item you are probably looking at a decade worth of BPO building to make the difference, and for MOST T2 BPO owners, they would make MORE isk by inventing another item.

Thus the problem exists only as one of equity in your head, it doesn't exist in a way that actually effects YOUR profitability.

Quote:
In eve, people buy the lowest priced item that's convenient to get to. Even if it's .01 isk cheaper. A bpo hold, who already makes more more per item sold, can drop his prices lower then anyone else and still turn a profit. That means his items will always sell first. Sure if there's enough demand, he can't effectivly manipulate the market, but he has a huge advantage in that he makes isk faster and with alot less effort. It's not how much you make so much as how much time and effort it takes you to do it.


If you think it's so great, you should really just buy one of the many thousands of T2 BPOs available to any player who starts the game today. Are you missing the fact that 95% of T2 BPOs make less isk than inventing something else, or even building T1 with less effort again? The 'advantage' comes at a significant capital cost, there very much SHOULD be an advantage, and it should be more significant than it is (which is to say negligible for 95% of T2 BPOs and not all that much for the rest).

The market can't be manipulated in either case. Either there is too much demand and invention sets the price, or not enough demand and other BPO owners set the price at equal to or in some cases LESS than build cost. If there isn't enough demand for invention to be profitable, there isn't enough demand for the BPO to be profitable either, particularly not as profitable as T1 building or invention.

If the BPO owner drops their price, you can buy and resell for more, knowing they have finite production compared to market demand.

Quote:
The only reason people sell them is because there rich people willing to part with large sums of isk, and the owner is probably tired of building. No one sells a bpo so they can get into invention.


I sold a T2 BPO to get into invention.... The T2 BPO was making me -7 million isk per month if I built off it. Invention made me several billion isk in the first month using that seed capital (much more than the BPO sold for). Quite clearly invention was the better isk maker

Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
Posted - 2010.01.21 20:50:00 - [117]
 

Originally by: Tiny Tove
Invention sets the price, BPOs set the volume.


Invention sets the price, market demand sets the volume. BPOs set nothing. Invention even influences BPO prices, which drop as invention continues to drop in cost (cheaper datacores and decryptors). You also have to keep in mind that many T2 BPOs are built in rapid manufacturing facilities, which add waste. Because just like invention, the throughput is more important to profit than profit per unit.

Originally by: Castaspella
Originally by: Lord Fitz
The only way to guarantee an increase in the margins of any activity in Eve, is to make it more difficult. The more difficult (or new) it is, the less people want to, or are able to do it, thus the greater profits. As soon as people have worked into a rhythm, profits drop to the lowest profit people are willing to accept in order to meet the demand. That's how the economy works and it's totally immune to influence from CCP or T2 BPOs or anything else you care to name.

I think we are quite in agreement on this (at least as it applies to industrial pursuits) - Idea which brings me back to my initial proposal. One elegant side effect of having the base T1 BPC's ME and PE impact the T2 BPC is that to be competitive in inventing, a player would have to secure high quality T1 BPCs - thereby raising the difficulty bar for invention. Not only that, it would reduce the rapid changing of product lines that inventors focus on, which would serve to elevate players with a product specialty.


High quality T1 BPCs are not particularly difficult to find. ME/PE research does not take long. Do many people actually invent off ME0 BPOs ? I mean, most people probably build the T1 item anyway so... I don't think it really raises the bar anything significant, unless you made the ME research requirement something silly high, but then it just seems like making work for the sake of making work. The problem with that is that it coincides with tying up the research slots that newer players want to use for researching their T1 stuff. Also currently, the -ve ME on modules doesn't really effect them at all, in many cases the build cost is within tens of isk of the BPO anyway.

I rather preferred the idea where T1 ships were going to get components the way capitals have. Modules could probably use a good build time / invention time nerf too, they're way too cheap and easy to flood markets with.

Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
Posted - 2010.01.21 20:59:00 - [118]
 

Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass

BPO's need a nerf, or Invention needs to be more competetive. I'd be happy with either.
So it boil down to the usual point, unmotivated envy.
Way to quote one line out of context and then apply your own interpretation.

No, it comes down to fair business practice. In the real world people would find a way to make production more effeicent and in that way compete with established builders. In game it's fixed.


Actually in the real world it would be patented and you would be legally prevented from competing with them by producing their product. In Eve, you can produce an IDENTICAL copy of the item without having to pay the up front R&D cost yourself.

Quote:
One method of procution is way better then the other. The one that is way better is artifically rendered out of reach for most players. There are too many "isk for free" and "isk for little effort" sources that are controlable by few players in game.


There are more than 10,000 T2 BPOs, and most were purchased by players for isk, the same way as is available to anyone today. I agree that the original distribution method left much to be desired, but the nature of the MMO is that this can't be fixed. The damage is done, those players sold it on and the problem became embedded in the game, never to be removed.

Quote:
There's enough "old money shutting out everyone else" in the real world. Who want's to deal with it in game? You want lots of money, work for it. Advantages are fine, creates discord. T2 BPOs and high end moons take it too far. They are self propagating.


Well it's a persistent world, unfortunately there is no dating on the money, someone who joined last year and saved every cent for a T2 BPO is treated the same way as someone that was given it 5 years ago. You want a T2 BPO, work for it. Even the most profitable T2 BPOs today, make very little isk, and 99% of them make next to nothing. The high end moons reach levels that T2 BPOs never did, levels where wave after wave of replacement caps effectively shut out anyone without their own high end moons already. A T2 BPO on the other hand, even the most profitable, make less than half as much as you can make inventing or building with the same amount of seed capital and minimal effort.

Short of starting the server from scratch again, there is no fix for the 'old money' situation, T2 BPOs themselves aren't old money, as they exist they are well balanced or poor for their cost. It was the introduction of them that was flawed, and can never be corrected. Mistakes in Eve are forever, many of the unfairest things in the real world are even worse in Eve, that's the game, if it makes you unhappy then you should probably try another, because it's never going to change.

Misanthra
Posted - 2010.01.22 03:54:00 - [119]
 

Originally by: Lord Fitz

I sold a T2 BPO to get into invention.... The T2 BPO was making me -7 million isk per month if I built off it. Invention made me several billion isk in the first month using that seed capital (much more than the BPO sold for). Quite clearly invention was the better isk maker



the isk do buy alot of materials lol.

Have been a t2 owner several times. They best used as investments to resell. Here's why...

The T2's I have owned (ammo's, all I can afford) if I did "free" sales, that is sales where I do not charge for actual materials just market price to pay back the bpo investment, to make back the cost of the bpo was still huge number of sales at a price for item I pulled off market prices at the time. That was not charging for materials. Not a good way to make money obviously.

Sooo...you charge at market rate to keep you stuff moving in markets, pay for your materials. So that the t2 owner's "profit" are still not there for quite some time. Say on an ammo your ME tweak ability gives you 20 isk per unit savings. based on recent ammo's going for 2 bil....still an buttload of sales to get back the cost of that bpo before yuo can say you are making a profit. Market changes like with dominion, that 20 isk can fluctuate to keep competitive. can get down to 10 isk...making that road longer.


Do the OG owners make out...probably. given the number of sales just on this forum alone and in game though this is a small breed by now (I have bought 3 t2 bpos and resold 2 of them for example adding to the pool of new bpo owners). Also bet isk to donuts thier biggest source of profit is having the funds, skill and time to have huge pos farms to get moon goo and do something with it. The 600K isk on avg for cores they are saving by not inventing and some ME tweaking...man, chump change to not paying for costs of mats with the realignment of moon goo products in dominion t2 production. They make/min cheap sell high and tap the supplies they produce....nice present for themselves. Us the non reaction pos holders are basically paying for their moon goo in their production lines. Very sexy setup.

Not seeing a call to tear down these pos' or *****ing about it....not seeing why the T2 hate. Its the same thing. got an advantage, use it to make some money. Welcome to business...

Andy Landen
Caldari
Posted - 2010.04.16 21:23:00 - [120]
 

Edited by: Andy Landen on 16/04/2010 21:29:47
Originally by: Garthran
I'm generally in favor of this. Increasing availability of t2 and decreasing production cost would also make it more affordable. Something I think most of Eve would have no problem with.


You know, invention should play a role in creating bpo's or bpc's for faction gear or sleeper gear, not for T2 stuff. Invention is the process in figuring out how to build stuff that is beyond current, commonly available technology. T2 bpo's should become available through escalations in null sec, to increase the tensions among the alliances for control of null sec and to bring T2 production onto a more fair playing field for all Eve players. Invent meta 1 bpc to get meta 3, meta 4 to get meta 6, T2 to get meta 7, etc. Distribute the bpo's for each meta level through escalations. Introduce a new meta level to allow sleeper gear bpc's. No bpo's for sleeper or officer gear, only bpc's, because this technology is so far advance from the commonly available technology that it must be invented each time. This is my line of thought.


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