| Author |
Topic |
Neramore |
Posted - 2009.08.20 17:44:00 - [ 1]
Edited by: Neramore on 03/09/2009 12:39:10
Edited by: Neramore on 02/09/2009 12:42:42
The competition: Find the optimal way to gather market information from every major high-sec trading region.
The reward: starts at 100 Million isk, goes up with donations
The question:
Assume you have four pilots (the alts of two different accounts).
What is the list of systems for each of those pilots to visit to gather market info on the following regions using only high-security systems - The Citadel, Derelik, Devoid, Domain, Essence, Everyshore, The Forge, Genesis, Heimatar, Kador, Khanid, Kor-Azor, Lonetrek, Metropolis, Sinq Laison, Tash-Murkon, Verge Vendor.
The Rules:
1. Reply with your route to this post.
2. Your route can only use high security systems.
3. Post the systems each pilot A, B, C and D must visit.
4. If your list covers more of the above 17 regions than the previous best, you are the new leader.
5. If your list covers the same number of regions than the previous best, but in fewer total jumps, you are the new leader.
6. The leader wins when no one improves on the current best for one week from the leader's posting.
The Reward:
I will put up 100 million isk for the reward. I will take donations to increase the reward. If you think having this information known to all is a good thing, and would like to increase the reward, please send a donation to me with the note "Optimal Route Competition". I will publicly thank you (or not, your choice) and add your donation to the reward. If the donations exceed 1 billion isk, I will find someone to act as an escrow.
Other Details:
I will update this post as frequently as I can with the current optimum, and the current end of the competition. Obviously the end of the competition will move depending on the most recent best routes.
An Example:
A: Ourapheh - Genesis, Botane - Sinq Laison, Atlangeins - Essence, Tolle - Everyshore
B: New Caldari - The Forge, Alikara - The Citadel, Vellaine - Lonetrek
C: Ryddinjorn - Metropolis, Odatrik - Heimatar, Jark - Derelik, Lisudeh - Devoid
D: Suner - Kador, Masanuh - Kor-Azor, Ervekam - Khanid, Onazel - Tash-Murkon, Bhizhea - Domain
This route covers 16 regions. |
Neramore |
Posted - 2009.08.20 17:45:00 - [ 2]
Edited by: Neramore on 27/08/2009 14:06:00Current leader: AluvysaCompetition ends: 2009.09.03 00:08:00 |
Babel
Utopian Research I.E.L.
Hedonistic Imperative |
Posted - 2009.08.20 18:33:00 - [ 3]
A = Athinard - Chantrousse - Derrintel [Everyshore, Sinq, Genesis, Verge, Essence = 7 jumps] *also includes Verge compared to yours* B = New Caldari - Alikara - Vellaine [Forge, Citadel, Lonetrek = 3 jumps, lots of variations on this] *same as your route* C = Ryddinjorn - Lisudeh [Metro, Heimatar, Derelik, Devoid = 9 jumps, alternative start = Arlulf] *same as your route* D = Molea - Bhizheba - Romi - Tash-Murkon Prime [Khanid, Kor-Azor, Domain, Kador, Tash-Murkon = 8 jumps] *shorter than your version* Total = 27 jumps with the 4 characters, 17 regions covered ... :) nb. links are to Dotlan routes. |
Neramore |
Posted - 2009.08.21 19:28:00 - [ 4]
Only six days left! |
Neramore |
Posted - 2009.08.23 11:10:00 - [ 5]
Four days left! |
Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire |
Posted - 2009.08.23 11:13:00 - [ 6]
Will us normal peps get the result for our market alts too?  |
Joe
Umbra Legion
Shadow Empire. |
Posted - 2009.08.23 12:48:00 - [ 7]
 Originally by: Neramore
The competition: Find the optimal way to gather market information from every major high-sec trading region.
http://www.eve-central.com/Did i win?  |
Neramore |
Posted - 2009.08.23 16:49:00 - [ 8]
Originally by: Chribba
Will us normal peps get the result for our market alts too?
Chribba? Normal? Riiiight. The results are public, not sure what might be hidden here? We're just discussing where to place your alts and what systems to visit to see every major market most efficiently. |
Neramore |
Posted - 2009.08.23 16:50:00 - [ 9]
|
Professor Tarantula
Hedion University |
Posted - 2009.08.23 17:06:00 - [ 10]
Edited by: Professor Tarantula on 23/08/2009 17:06:29
Rens is the spot for the Heimatar region.
It's also commonly accepted that people in Rens and Abudban are naturally cooler and sexier than the people of other systems. |
Neramore |
Posted - 2009.08.25 19:08:00 - [ 11]
Only two days left! Easy isk, just spend some time with the map! |
Fink Angel
Caldari
The Merry Men |
Posted - 2009.08.25 19:14:00 - [ 12]
Edited by: Fink Angel on 25/08/2009 19:18:17Aha, this is known as the Travelling Salesman Problem, or also "NP Complete". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travelling_salesman_problemhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NP-completeGood luck, there's no simple computational solution. Edit: see here too: "One experience from dealing with the Travelling Salesman's Problem is that our eyes easily discovers the flaws of different solutions. Something just "feels wrong". But it can be very difficult to put the feeling into words, not to talk about defining it in terms that can be used as an algorithm. Isadora Duncan once was asked to tell what her dance was about. She answered - "if I could tell it, I wouldn't have to dance it"." http://web.telia.com/~u85905224/tsp/TSP.htm |
B1FF |
Posted - 2009.08.25 20:12:00 - [ 13]
Originally by: Fink Angel
Edited by: Fink Angel on 25/08/2009 19:18:17
Aha, this is known as the Travelling Salesman Problem, or also "NP Complete".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travelling_salesman_problem
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NP-complete
Good luck, there's no simple computational solution.
Edit: see here too:
"One experience from dealing with the Travelling Salesman's Problem is that our eyes easily discovers the flaws of different solutions. Something just "feels wrong". But it can be very difficult to put the feeling into words, not to talk about defining it in terms that can be used as an algorithm.
Isadora Duncan once was asked to tell what her dance was about. She answered - "if I could tell it, I wouldn't have to dance it"."
http://web.telia.com/~u85905224/tsp/TSP.htm
Not quite as the OP doesn't care about distances just the number of jumps. This makes it trivial to compute. |
Fink Angel
Caldari
The Merry Men |
Posted - 2009.08.25 23:29:00 - [ 14]
Originally by: B1FF
Not quite as the OP doesn't care about distances just the number of jumps.
This makes it trivial to compute.
Should take into account the AUs of the warps too. That would properly optimise it, especially if you're slow-warping your freighter. |
Taedrin
Gallente
Kushan Industrial
|
Posted - 2009.08.26 00:02:00 - [ 15]
Edited by: Taedrin on 26/08/2009 00:02:32 Originally by: B1FF
Originally by: Fink Angel
Edited by: Fink Angel on 25/08/2009 19:18:17
Aha, this is known as the Travelling Salesman Problem, or also "NP Complete".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travelling_salesman_problem
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NP-complete
Good luck, there's no simple computational solution.
Edit: see here too:
"One experience from dealing with the Travelling Salesman's Problem is that our eyes easily discovers the flaws of different solutions. Something just "feels wrong". But it can be very difficult to put the feeling into words, not to talk about defining it in terms that can be used as an algorithm.
Isadora Duncan once was asked to tell what her dance was about. She answered - "if I could tell it, I wouldn't have to dance it"."
http://web.telia.com/~u85905224/tsp/TSP.htm
Not quite as the OP doesn't care about distances just the number of jumps.
This makes it trivial to compute.
The number of jumps IS the distance. This is a 17 point Traveling salesman problem, as you have to visit at least 17 points (regions) and attempt to find the shortest possible route while visiting all 17 points. This is NOT easily solved. The naive brute force method for solving this requires you to compare 355,687,428,096,000 different possible routes to find the best possible solution. However, humans are surprisingly good at finding a "good enough" solution, hence the reason why the OP is bringing this to the forums. |
Jennifer Celeste |
Posted - 2009.08.26 00:24:00 - [ 16]
Originally by: Neramore
Edited by: Neramore on 25/08/2009 19:07:45
The competition: Find the optimal way to gather market information from every major high-sec trading region.
The reward: starts at 100 Million isk, goes up with donations
The question:
Assume you have four pilots (the alts of two different accounts).
What is the list of systems for each of those pilots to visit to gather market info on the following regions using only high-security systems - The Citadel, Derelik, Devoid, Domain, Essence, Everyshore, The Forge, Genesis, Heimatar, Kador, Khanid, Kor-Azor, Lonetrek, Metropolis, Sinq Laison, Tash-Murkon, Verge Vendor.
The Rules:
1. Reply with your route to this post.
2. Your route can only use high security systems.
3. Post the systems each pilot A, B, C and D must visit.
4. If your list covers more of the above 17 regions than the previous best, you are the new leader.
5. If your list covers the same number of regions than the previous best, but in fewer total jumps, you are the new leader.
6. The leader wins when no one improves on the current best for one week from the leader's posting.
The Reward:
I will put up 100 million isk for the reward. I will take donations to increase the reward. If you think having this information known to all is a good thing, and would like to increase the reward, please send a donation to me with the note "Optimal Route Competition". I will publicly thank you (or not, your choice) and add your donation to the reward. If the donations exceed 1 billion isk, I will find someone to act as an escrow.
Other Details:
I will update this post as frequently as I can with the current optimum, and the current end of the competition. Obviously the end of the competition will move depending on the most recent best routes.
An Example:
A: Ourapheh - Genesis, Botane - Sinq Laison, Atlangeins - Essence, Tolle - Everyshore
B: New Caldari - The Forge, Alikara - The Citadel, Vellaine - Lonetrek
C: Ryddinjorn - Metropolis, Odatrik - Heimatar, Jark - Derelik, Lisudeh - Devoid
D: Suner - Kador, Masanuh - Kor-Azor, Ervekam - Khanid, Onazel - Tash-Murkon, Bhizhea - Domain
This route covers 16 regions.
translation: Hey guys im too lazy to plot a trade route, can you all do it for me? |
R Ramjet
Immortal Council |
Posted - 2009.08.26 00:40:00 - [ 17]
Originally by: Jennifer Celeste
translation: Hey guys, I earn enough isk nowadays to waste my time plotting a trade route, so I'm kindly offering to pay someone to do it for me.
There, fixed that for you. |
B1FF |
Posted - 2009.08.26 12:18:00 - [ 18]
Originally by: Taedrin
Edited by: Taedrin on 26/08/2009 00:02:32
Originally by: B1FF
Originally by: Fink Angel
Edited by: Fink Angel on 25/08/2009 19:18:17
Aha, this is known as the Travelling Salesman Problem, or also "NP Complete".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travelling_salesman_problem
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NP-complete
Good luck, there's no simple computational solution.
Edit: see here too:
"One experience from dealing with the Travelling Salesman's Problem is that our eyes easily discovers the flaws of different solutions. Something just "feels wrong". But it can be very difficult to put the feeling into words, not to talk about defining it in terms that can be used as an algorithm.
Isadora Duncan once was asked to tell what her dance was about. She answered - "if I could tell it, I wouldn't have to dance it"."
http://web.telia.com/~u85905224/tsp/TSP.htm
Not quite as the OP doesn't care about distances just the number of jumps.
This makes it trivial to compute.
The number of jumps IS the distance. This is a 17 point Traveling salesman problem, as you have to visit at least 17 points (regions) and attempt to find the shortest possible route while visiting all 17 points. This is NOT easily solved. The naive brute force method for solving this requires you to compare 355,687,428,096,000 different possible routes to find the best possible solution.
However, humans are surprisingly good at finding a "good enough" solution, hence the reason why the OP is bringing this to the forums.
Go read the link. Finding the shortest route between all nodes in a graph and all nodes in a graph with weighting is significantly different. Your search space arguement is meaningless. Trivial has a distinct meaning in comp sci. It does not mean quick to solve. It means easy to solve. The problem as layed out by the OP is identical to the maze navigation screen saver. It is not traveling salesman. |
B1FF |
Posted - 2009.08.26 12:18:00 - [ 19]
Originally by: Fink Angel
Originally by: B1FF
Not quite as the OP doesn't care about distances just the number of jumps.
This makes it trivial to compute.
Should take into account the AUs of the warps too. That would properly optimise it, especially if you're slow-warping your freighter.
In that case you would be right, but the OP doesn't so you're wrong. |
Neramore |
Posted - 2009.08.26 18:29:00 - [ 20]
It's amazing how many folks read this and think I'm asking for one route. I'm not. I'm asking for four routes that combined cover all 17 regions. Also amazing how much discussion about the type of problem it is, but not much actually addressing the problem.
And yes, this is absolutely a case of spending isk instead of time. One of the few examples in EVE where a noob can make a decent pile of isk with 0 skills whatsoever.
Ah well.
One day left! |
Fink Angel
Caldari
The Merry Men |
Posted - 2009.08.26 19:05:00 - [ 21]
Originally by: Neramore
Also amazing how much discussion about the type of problem it is, but not much actually addressing the problem.
It's a discussion forum, so I guess you'll have to live with it. Also, the discussion might have ended up helping your quest for an answer. |
Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech |
Posted - 2009.08.26 20:25:00 - [ 22]
Originally by: Neramore
Also amazing how much discussion about the type of problem it is, but not much actually addressing the problem.
That's how "scientists" are trained up these days. They aren't trained any more to solve problems. They are trained to categorize problem, sort them into folders, tag them with labels, research the nature of the problem etc. But they aren't taught how to solve it. Very typical for our days. |
Aluvysa |
Posted - 2009.08.27 00:08:00 - [ 23]
Kassigainen (Citadel) - Synchelle (Essence) - Pakhishi (Gensis) - Tar (Gen) - Merolles (Verge Vendor) - Tar (Gen) - Manarq (Gen) - Tolle (Everyshore) :: 7 Jumps, 5 Regions
Molea (Khanid) - Nakregde (Kor-Azor) - Kor-Azor Prime (K-A) - Amarr (Domain) - Bhizheba (Dom) - Tash-Murkon Prime (Tash-Murkon) - Bhizheba (Dom) - Romi (Kador) :: 7 Jumps, 5 Regions
Tunttaras (Lonetrek) - Niyabainen (The Forge) - Perimeter (For) - Ieyn-Oursta (Sinq Laison) :: 3 Jumps, 3 Regions
Lisudeh (Devoid) - Lashesih (Derelik) - Sasta (Der) - Jark (Der) - Odatrik (Heimatar) - Trytedald (Hem) - Ivar (Hem) - Ameinaka (Hem) - Arlulf (Metropolis) :: 8 Jumps, 4 Regions
17 Regions visited
25 Jumps Total |
Neramore |
Posted - 2009.08.27 14:11:00 - [ 24]
And in a near last minute entry, Aluvysa becomes the new leader, resetting the clock per rule 5 and 6! Double checked that route, and it all looks good.
To date there have been no isk donations, unfortunately.
If no one improves on Aluvysa's routes within one week of that post, she will be the new winner! |
B1FF |
Posted - 2009.08.27 16:44:00 - [ 25]
Originally by: Gnulpie
Originally by: Neramore
Also amazing how much discussion about the type of problem it is, but not much actually addressing the problem.
That's how "scientists" are trained up these days.
They aren't trained any more to solve problems. They are trained to categorize problem, sort them into folders, tag them with labels, research the nature of the problem etc. But they aren't taught how to solve it.
Very typical for our days.
How can you solve problem A if you think you're solving problem B and thus are using the tools needed for problem B? |
Neramore |
Posted - 2009.08.30 15:51:00 - [ 26]
Four days left. Just have to beat the best by one to win 100 Million Isk! |
cyboman
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
|
Posted - 2009.08.31 15:00:00 - [ 27]
Originally by: Aluvysa
Kassigainen (Citadel) - Synchelle (Essence) - Pakhishi (Gensis) - Tar (Gen) - Merolles (Verge Vendor) - Tar (Gen) - Manarq (Gen) - Tolle (Everyshore) :: 7 Jumps, 5 Regions
Molea (Khanid) - Nakregde (Kor-Azor) - Kor-Azor Prime (K-A) - Amarr (Domain) - Bhizheba (Dom) - Tash-Murkon Prime (Tash-Murkon) - Bhizheba (Dom) - Romi (Kador) :: 7 Jumps, 5 Regions
Tunttaras (Lonetrek) - Niyabainen (The Forge) - Perimeter (For) - Ieyn-Oursta (Sinq Laison) :: 3 Jumps, 3 Regions
Lisudeh (Devoid) - Lashesih (Derelik) - Sasta (Der) - Jark (Der) - Odatrik (Heimatar) - Trytedald (Hem) - Ivar (Hem) - Ameinaka (Hem) - Arlulf (Metropolis) :: 8 Jumps, 4 Regions
17 Regions visited
25 Jumps Total
To imporve on the last set... Lisudeh (Devoid) - Lashesih (Derelik) - Sasta (Der) - Jark (Der) - Odatrik (Heimatar) - Rens (Heimatar) - Ryddinjorn (Metropolis) :: 6 Jumps, 4 Regions 17 Regions visited 23 Jumps Total Unless I missed something? |
Neramore |
Posted - 2009.09.01 15:45:00 - [ 28]
Originally by: cyboman
To imporve on the last set...
Lisudeh (Devoid) - Lashesih (Derelik) - Sasta (Der) - Jark (Der) - Odatrik (Heimatar) - Rens (Heimatar) - Ryddinjorn (Metropolis) :: 6 Jumps, 4 Regions
17 Regions visited
23 Jumps Total
Unless I missed something?
Sorry, can't go straight from Rens to Ryddinjorn. Please try again? |
Neramore |
Posted - 2009.09.02 12:44:00 - [ 29]
We're in the final hours for the competition, folks. Unless, of course, YOU find a better route and post it! |
Neramore |
Posted - 2009.09.03 12:40:00 - [ 30]
Congratulations to Aluvysa. She has won the competition, and the 100 million isk. This isk has been deposited in her account.
Thanks to all our participants! |
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