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LordSwift
Caldari
The Riot Act
Sacra Cupola
Posted - 2009.08.18 14:06:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: LordSwift on 18/08/2009 14:08:01
Right I wanted to have a discussion about the recent information regarding cloned troops being introduced into the eve. How do you think this will be possible in EVE terms.
Not surprised the technology has advanced enough that soldiers running around getting blown up, shot etc can be reanimated like pod pilots.

Alexeph Stoekai
Stoekai Corp
Posted - 2009.08.18 16:06:00 - [2]
 

Any way CCP says.

This has been my argument around combat in WiS as well. The argument is that people can't be cloned out-of-pod, but all it really takes is for CCP to say "Oh, look, scientific breakthrough!" and it's all solved.

We will probably see some fiction news about it closer to November.


LOL56
First Flying Wing Inc
ROMANIAN-LEGION
Posted - 2009.08.18 19:16:00 - [3]
 

there is no good trigger for the the mind scan on a person not in a pod. it is explained that even in a land vehicle, the lethal mind scan would often fire early, then needlessly removing the person to the clone facility, or would fire, late/not at all, leaving them dead, with no hope of recall.
CCP has stated that in WiS there will be no combat for this very reason.

Casiella Truza
Ecliptic Rift
Posted - 2009.08.18 19:21:00 - [4]
 

I believe PF allows some sort of "backups," perhaps those could occur daily or so.

Alexeph Stoekai
Stoekai Corp
Posted - 2009.08.18 19:35:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: LOL56
there is no good trigger for the the mind scan on a person not in a pod. it is explained that even in a land vehicle, the lethal mind scan would often fire early, then needlessly removing the person to the clone facility, or would fire, late/not at all, leaving them dead, with no hope of recall.
CCP has stated that in WiS there will be no combat for this very reason.
Yes, but CCP is completely free to change their mind of this to allow combat clones.

Mr Mork
Posted - 2009.08.19 02:36:00 - [6]
 

The problem is the lack of certainty of safety/death causes premature or late brain scans. CCP puts the soldiers in halo master chief awesome armor of read your vital signs and that goes away.

Ghost Hunter
True Slave Foundations
Shaktipat Revelators
Posted - 2009.08.19 15:09:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: LordSwift
Edited by: LordSwift on 18/08/2009 14:08:01
Right I wanted to have a discussion about the recent information regarding cloned troops being introduced into the eve. How do you think this will be possible in EVE terms.
Not surprised the technology has advanced enough that soldiers running around getting blown up, shot etc can be reanimated like pod pilots.


I've seen references of other cloning techniques outside of Capsule cloning; back ups, hard scans etc.

Fundamentally this is a practical way of using cloned soldiers. You have a single hard scan that acts as the construction template from which all new clones are mass produced from. The clone that survives at the end of the day can be used to update the hard scan with new information.

This does however mean that, unless there is a massive turn on Capsule cloning's head (Active cloning because viable on ground combat) that there won't be any sort of EVE skill system. In PF terms, at least.

If push comes to shove that can probably be thrown out the window.

ovenproofjet
Caldari
Therapy.
Posted - 2009.08.19 22:33:00 - [8]
 

It may turn out that the soldiers have now got the same technology as Pod Pilots built into their combat helmets. Perhaps the new technology mentioned is simply a smaller version of that already used in pods. But again this is all going to be speculation until we get some hard facts from CCP

Furrot
Posted - 2009.08.20 02:18:00 - [9]
 

If we look at the RP news lately we can see a few major events brewing. First is the end of the current Gallente presidency, second is internal religious disputes within the Minmatar and thirdly is a large proliferation of so called sub dermal microcontrolers to better control Amarr slave populations. While the strife in Gallente space is building to a greater conflict we might see a breakthrough with the microcontrolers being the storyline basis for the DUST troopers. Implanted soldiers cloned on demand and controlled through a system like our own pods could be the basis of an immortal cloned soldier that could learn from combat experience. We already have remotely controlled drone aircraft IRL, this is just a biologically based extension of the system. My only skeptism of my theory is that I'm not sure of the fluid router system could handle the remote control of these automotons but that could just lead to a ship based operating theatre that handles the uploading process.

Jowen Datloran
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2009.08.20 15:58:00 - [10]
 

Maybe clone troopers doesn't need such fancy cloning equipment as we have. After all, they don't need to be as smart as we are.Razz

An alternative way is simply generating all the clones on beforehand and then transmit experiences from the "live" clone to the ones that are dormant. You could properly modify on of those microcontrollers to help you with that.

Brigitte Helm
Minmatar
Native Freshfood
Posted - 2009.08.20 16:08:00 - [11]
 

It is an interesting idea and I can understand the confusion, but his is my take on it.

When you are in a pod about to die, you brain is scanned and you are transmitted back to your new clone with all your memories. If you are a soldier you are scanned (ok you might die but hey who cares) and all your knowledge is stored. Then as required the scan is placed in a body. The body dies, the scan is placed in a body.. repeat until the scan can no longer be used.

The thing that I find interesting is will it all be one scanned minded or many. We will have to wait and see.

Discrodia
Gallente
Symbiosis International
Moose Alliance
Posted - 2009.08.20 18:40:00 - [12]
 

I believe in the EVE Empyrean Age book the Broker was able to clone without a pod. Possibly in a way related to that?

Mithfindel
Zenko Incorporated
Posted - 2009.08.21 19:40:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Mithfindel on 21/08/2009 19:42:54
A few things needed to be taken into account include the requirements for skill system, if any etc. If the possible "classes" or "allowed equipment" are unlocked with an achievement system (perhaps more familiar to console players - unless CCP goes to plow new ground), skills might not be needed. The immortality can be explained with pre-mission backups. Even EVE-style skill systems could be built with backups - instead of the capsuleer's "mind transfer on demand" system, the grunts would need to periodically back up their memories, bringing another risk/reward mechanic - that is, if you don't back up before battle, you save on scrip but chance losing the memories, something which should be already familiar at least to the soldiers using a lot of C2H5OH (ethanol). Also, jump cloning would be a practical mechanic for troop delivery - since even if a few dropships are destroyed, it is enough that a single dropship gets thru and is capable of activating its clone bays. Also, one of the chrons (Life in Three Acts) does seem to hint that the bodies sent on the field aren't just regular meatbags.

...and a quick edit: If the soldiers "R&R" body is already on the operating room, being prepared for a clone jump, I assume that storing a snapshot of the mind from the moment the soldiers enters the battlefield is quite trivial. Thus, assuming that the fights don't drag on for days, the worst-case scenario of lost memories would include on the battle itself - and perhaps not even that if the soldier has memory implants and the body can be recovered.

Horatius Caul
Amarr
Kitzless
Posted - 2009.08.21 19:57:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Mithfindel
Also, one of the chrons (Life in Three Acts) does seem to hint that the bodies sent on the field aren't just regular meatbags.
Ooh, good call. I had completely forgotten about that!

Ouro Akala
Posted - 2009.08.21 21:29:00 - [15]
 

Setting up a jump clone costs 100k ISK, that's A LOT, for a signle more or less disposable soldier, unless the DUST troopers are some sort of hyper elite fighting force. And should that be the case, they'd probably not take part in regular combat - and that is the thing we saw in the preview. I'm actually puzzled how they're gonna implement respawning PF wise. There is ample room for it, it's just... not very believable from the way I see it.

Creed Demastikus
House of Demastikus
Posted - 2009.08.25 19:50:00 - [16]
 

if its like starwars "cloning" so all bodys same only "personalty" is different as few ppl states already if one dropship with tons of clones manage to land on ground thats enough for "mind transfer" so u get your fresh clone troopers / dust troopers

i wondering what kind of structures can be implanted on the ground as hilmar said on the video.. and what kind of planetery system comin? can u raise buildinds like civilization or (if anyone played) "imperium gallactica" kind ?

goshh too many question only few answers.. :( wish i had chance to go fanfest :/

Deviana Sevidon
Gallente
Panta-Rhei
Butterfly Effect Alliance
Posted - 2009.08.26 10:33:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Deviana Sevidon on 26/08/2009 10:41:18
It might be possible that a Burning Scan is done only once, when the Training of the Soldier is completed. After that Backups of the Scan are made and inserted into each new Clone. The obvious downside is, that the Clone would lose all Memories after the first Scan happened when they die.

So this way of Cloning would not be a good Idea for Pod Pilots, but might work if you want a large Army of essentially fearless Soldiers. The best thing, they do not even cost that much in the long run, since you do not need to treat them on Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, or have to worry about reintegrating them into Society.

Edit:

The Broker seems to have done a bit of the same. He had one Body held somewhere in Stasis as Master and the Ones running around were disposable Copies. But it seems he went a bit further and was able to integrate the Memories of the Copies at least partially back into the Master. Somewhere during this Experiments he must have made a grave Mistake and now the Master is infected with a Disease that causes all Clones to detoriate extremely fast and bears some similarities to Vitoc. (It is not Vitoc Withdrawals that affects the Broker, so Insorum alone would not help him but the Formula would be Start to find a Cure for his Condition).

LordSwift
Caldari
The Riot Act
Sacra Cupola
Posted - 2009.08.26 12:39:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Deviana Sevidon
Edited by: Deviana Sevidon on 26/08/2009 10:41:18
It might be possible that a Burning Scan is done only once, when the Training of the Soldier is completed. After that Backups of the Scan are made and inserted into each new Clone. The obvious downside is, that the Clone would lose all Memories after the first Scan happened when they die.

So this way of Cloning would not be a good Idea for Pod Pilots, but might work if you want a large Army of essentially fearless Soldiers. The best thing, they do not even cost that much in the long run, since you do not need to treat them on Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, or have to worry about reintegrating them into Society.

Edit:

The Broker seems to have done a bit of the same. He had one Body held somewhere in Stasis as Master and the Ones running around were disposable Copies. But it seems he went a bit further and was able to integrate the Memories of the Copies at least partially back into the Master. Somewhere during this Experiments he must have made a grave Mistake and now the Master is infected with a Disease that causes all Clones to detoriate extremely fast and bears some similarities to Vitoc. (It is not Vitoc Withdrawals that affects the Broker, so Insorum alone would not help him but the Formula would be Start to find a Cure for his Condition).


I really want to find out whether he is still about. We didnt really get a answer except his body turning to mush at a stargate

Stitcher
Caldari
Posted - 2009.08.26 13:37:00 - [19]
 

Cloned standardized bodies that can be mass-produced cheaply. You retain the training and mind-state of a soldier via soft-scan, upload it into the soldier body, away they go. if they get killed, just repeat - they don't have to remember the battle, just fight in it.

or, to put it another way: soldier clone-jumps into combat body. Soldier goes into body with backup mind-state behind the lines. if he dies, he gets cloned from the backup. At the end of the battle, the mind-state jumps back into the original body, none the worse for wear, aside from effective having amnesia about the battle.

Dex Nederland
Caldari
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
Posted - 2009.08.26 13:56:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Ouro Akala
Setting up a jump clone costs 100k ISK, that's A LOT, for a signle more or less disposable soldier, unless the DUST troopers are some sort of hyper elite fighting force. And should that be the case, they'd probably not take part in regular combat - and that is the thing we saw in the preview. I'm actually puzzled how they're gonna implement respawning PF wise. There is ample room for it, it's just... not very believable from the way I see it.

But 100k ISK isn't a lot from the perspective of the mercenary corp who is going to charge tens to hundreds of millions for its services. Squad of 10 DUST also isn't necessarily jump cloning as far or requires as much "bandwidth." These aren't capsuleers who require significantly more infrastructure support.

Deviana Sevidon
Gallente
Panta-Rhei
Butterfly Effect Alliance
Posted - 2009.08.28 19:59:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Dex Nederland
But 100k ISK isn't a lot from the perspective of the mercenary corp who is going to charge tens to hundreds of millions for its services. Squad of 10 DUST also isn't necessarily jump cloning as far or requires as much "bandwidth." These aren't capsuleers who require significantly more infrastructure support.


But the Dust Mercenaries will be dealing with Capsuleers and to be honest,100K is not really much for a single Capsuleer. At this Price purchasing even a whole Army would not mean much for a Capsuleer Alliance.

Nachshon
Caldari
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2009.08.28 22:14:00 - [22]
 

The best system I can think of would be a version of jump clones. PF could state that the clone bodies are specifically designed for this purpose. Hell, the technology could even come from an outside source - the Sleepers, perhaps?

Oh, that's gotta be it! Reverse-engineered Sleeper technology! Explaining not only where it came from, but why the capsuleers have superior access to it!

Ethan Bellator
Taggart Transdimensional
Posted - 2009.08.30 06:17:00 - [23]
 

It'd make sense: in Unreal Tournament 3 they had a simple explanation to the case of respawners (which were flash-cloning machines with little to no flaw, and it was so quick you wouldn't even realize you died aside from the horrid pain of it).

No casualties, and it makes sense. Why would you need to keep looking for newer soldiers when the best ones would just 'respawn' themselves somewhere safe?

azeral kulik
Amarr
Posted - 2009.09.24 15:35:00 - [24]
 

this was extracted from one of the eve short stories and shows that the tech is already there.


(Before Faus could react, the Jovian grabbed his wrist and thrust the pistol into his own chest. “You could save the lives of at least some of them if you act now!”)

(“You should not be living, Grious,” he stammered. “I saw you—”)

(“Stop. Do not tell me how I met my death, Faus,” Grious warned. “In time, reanimation science will reveal itself to the other races. But until then, we will seem as demons to those who hold religion accountable for immortality.”)


thats my theory something to do with the jovians

Alexeph Stoekai
Stoekai Corp
Posted - 2009.09.24 16:38:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: azeral kulik
this was extracted from one of the eve short stories and shows that the tech is already there.


(Before Faus could react, the Jovian grabbed his wrist and thrust the pistol into his own chest. “You could save the lives of at least some of them if you act now!”)

(“You should not be living, Grious,” he stammered. “I saw you—”)

(“Stop. Do not tell me how I met my death, Faus,” Grious warned. “In time, reanimation science will reveal itself to the other races. But until then, we will seem as demons to those who hold religion accountable for immortality.”)


thats my theory something to do with the jovians

1. It was a revival from a backup clone, not an immediate one.
2. Grious was a Jovian, if I'm not mistaken. They have much more advanced cloning technology.
3. This was at a point in time when no-one had heard of being revived through a clone body.

Urishkan Kharii
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.09.27 14:30:00 - [26]
 

Unless they go down the Rogue Trooper line.

Each dustie has a biochip implant that at point of death does a data download of the person?

But then that raises the issues of can you harvest the implats mid battle or do you wait and who-ever carried the day gets to harvest their fallen, and they they can destroy the enemy chips- in effect "podding™" them.

or failing that there could be an orbital resurrection ship (given the dusties have to get to a planet somehow) - Perhaps cloaked or somesuch?


 

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