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SPIONKOP
Caldari
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2004.10.11 12:20:00 - [1]
 

I would like to gauge the opinion of players as to the future of small corps. CCP seem to be making it more difficult for the smaller corps to exist and to have a role in the game. I can only see problems for the game if small corps, freelancers and newbs are forced to join the mega corps. Whilst some will join, I fear that many will simply leave the game.

The next release of shiva seems to offer much more for the mega corps than it does the smaller corps. Whilst I agree with a lot of what Shiva will deliver I am not sure the balance is right. The following are just some of the issues that concern me.

A corp can not declare war on another corp in an alliance, they have to declare war on that alliance. This gives the alliance members way too much power over the smaller corps.

Costs of Labs/Office Space/Factories. Costs will be affordable for mega corps but small corps will struggle. Also players that want to specialise in building/research can't find lab slots and new corps can't find stations in the higher sec areas.

POS. Devs still don't seem to be sure if POS can be built in low sec empire space or not. Not sure I want to see POS in Jita, but surly they have to allow POS in 0.4 and below.

Trade. New skills will restrict the development of small corps who wish to buy/sell items on the market as well as the new cost being applied to buy orders. Large corps can afford to specialise and have the funds to operate the market.

Alliances. The cost of alliance wars will make it more cost effective to have a small number of large corps, rather than a large number of small corps. Small corps will not be able to join an alliance unless they merge.

Don't get me wrong I am looking forward to Shiva and all that it offers but I do worry about the future. For Eve to grow we need to increase the number of new players to replace those that leave. IF there are no roles for the small corp, solo players etc then we lose a lot of players and discourage others from joining the game or staying long enough to see how good eve is.




Drefsab
Caldari
Apex Consortium
Posted - 2004.10.11 12:27:00 - [2]
 

hey spi, I know exactly what you are saying, I once was a director of a small (but at the time still powerful) corp. But we ended up merging with rona as the larger groups will always get the biggest toys first. OTE is a good corp and you and its members deserve to be able to get in on the main action, sadly it looks like your only real options are joining an allience or merging. If you send me an eve mail later I will have a chat and put in some good words for you if you like.

Respect to the OTE crew :D

Wren
Minmatar
x13
IT Alliance
Posted - 2004.10.11 12:35:00 - [3]
 

go try to be a freelance merc IRL.

be a small soda company IRL.

be a small corp anywhere IRL.

You will find it much much easier in EVE.

Decilius
Gallente
Inter Planetary Expeditions
Posted - 2004.10.11 13:29:00 - [4]
 

I am the CEO of a small corp (>10 members) and I like it that way, dont get me wrong I want the corp to grow but slowly and controllably merging with a big corp is simply not an option for us.

On the other hand I think CCP would be happy if nought but 2 absolute megacorps existed in their universe and fought each other tooth and nail for everything.

You are right of course about the lack of offices and factories in high sec space and the shortage of labs is just laughable. There seems like there is no room for the little guy in Eve (and I do go through some dreadfully depressing times when I just think that its not worth it anymore but sometimes as is at this moment in time, I'm glad we are small as it does give us some freedoms not enjoyed by bigger corps and alliances and we do tend not to get noticed except when we want to be.


Ruffio Sepico
Minmatar
Hidden Agenda
Deep Space Engineering
Posted - 2004.10.11 13:43:00 - [5]
 



Activity and dedication gets you where you are, not numbers alone.
Big numbers alone doesnt make anyone effective or good. If people put just as much effort into get anywhere as they do moaning, they would do so much better.

Decilius
Gallente
Inter Planetary Expeditions
Posted - 2004.10.11 13:47:00 - [6]
 

What Ruffio said

Barth3zzzNL
Gallente
Coreli Corporation
Posted - 2004.10.11 14:37:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: SPIONKOP
A corp can not declare war on another corp in an alliance, they have to declare war on that alliance. This gives the alliance members way too much power over the smaller corps.

I actually do disagree on this part, its really going to decrease the overall amount of PVP in eve. Which is bad Sad

Originally by: SPIONKOP
Costs of Labs/Office Space/Factories. Costs will be affordable for mega corps but small corps will struggle. Also players that want to specialise in building/research can't find lab slots and new corps can't find stations in the higher sec areas.

This isnt really corp related, its related to CCP's unwillingness to implement a decend solution. Several of those have already been posted by players.

Originally by: SPIONKOP
POS. Devs still don't seem to be sure if POS can be built in low sec empire space or not. Not sure I want to see POS in Jita, but surly they have to allow POS in 0.4 and below.

Just because POS have to be in 0.0 doesnt mean small corps cant own one.
Join an alliance or move into neutral 0.0.
Im a member of a 6 man corp and were already planning on building an outpost.

Sure, it might be harder to defend then a large corp but you are also a less obvious target.

Originally by: SPIONKOP
Alliances. The cost of alliance wars will make it more cost effective to have a small number of large corps, rather than a large number of small corps. Small corps will not be able to join an alliance unless they merge.

Alliances have to pay 1 mill per corp per month or so. An alliance could simply set a 1 mill isk membership fee for all corps no matter their size. I doubt anyone has problems getting 1 mill isk.

SPIONKOP
Caldari
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2004.10.11 16:40:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Wren
go try to be a freelance merc IRL.

be a small soda company IRL.

be a small corp anywhere IRL.

You will find it much much easier in EVE.


I think your missing the point Wren. Eve is not real life, it fun time.

To me joining a mega corp and taking "orders" and doing what I am told without much of say over who we are at war/peace with resembles real life too much. I like to enjoy myself and help the corp and its members.

I just feel sad that many players will miss out on playing such a great game because they will be forced to join a mega corp or be unable to partake in certain elements of the game.

Whilst it may be unlealistic for small corps to own/defend a POS surly they should be able to research a BPO or declare war on a small corp causing them grief but instead they can't get find a lab and have to declare war on an alliance.

Eve is fun and that should be the most important reason we play the game. No matter if you a pirate, a merc, a miner, carebear what ever.

Raem Civrie
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2004.10.11 16:47:00 - [9]
 

I think the real problem is the fact that most small corps are trying to operate like the biggies, and worse, trying to compete with them. Your 10-man corp isn't likely to be able to undercut the regional alliances on battleship prices. Not for long, at least.

Your ten members aren't going to be able to fully compete with dozens of people. It's about specialization and playing on strengths, and I feel alot of people are doing neither. The alliances, however, have found their strengths in wealth and numbers, and act upon those strengths.

DarkMatter
Sintered Sanity
Posted - 2004.10.11 16:48:00 - [10]
 

CCP is doing it's best to stomp out small corps...

We are the black sheep of the EVE universe...

pardux
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2004.10.11 17:14:00 - [11]
 

Crying or Very saddarkmatter is right

Decilius
Gallente
Inter Planetary Expeditions
Posted - 2004.10.11 17:19:00 - [12]
 

Darkmatter no you are not right, someone said earlier in this thread that it is about specialisation and finding your niche in this Universe. I have found one for my corp and as far as I know we are doing alright for ourselves. As for the small corps cant compete with big corps I have one word.... phooey there is a member of our corp who produces loads of stuff makes himself 15- 20 mil at a time and still finds time to run 3 factories for corp. You just have to LOOK for a way to make your corp work IdeaIdea

LaughingLaughingLaughing

Kattrina
Posted - 2004.10.11 17:24:00 - [13]
 

Dec is right.

CmdoColin
Posted - 2004.10.11 18:38:00 - [14]
 

I personally think the only thing small corps miss out on in the starbases from shiva. My reasons for this are:

Doesn't specialisation become the key here? One uber refiner is all thats needed in a mega corp, its all thats needed in a smaller corp too. He takes the missions, but gets your one of the combat specialised guys to actually do the kill missions to get standing. The guy specialised as a hauler does the courior. Same for the new selling thingie. One guys skilled up something silly - eveything is sold through him. Doesn't this actually work better in a smaller corp? A small corp where everyone knows and trusts each other - rather than a mega corp where you know even if refiner Y nicks everything, refiner Z, and the corp mining drones can replace it in a few minutes.

As for the war decleration - why would a 10 member or less corp want to declare war on an alliance with 800+ memebers. If a corp pays 1million to be in an alliance - surely they are entitled to the protection it affords, or we all just use our combat alts to get around the war restrictions on corps in allainces.

Put together your own alliance... If all the small corps untied - like small shops trader groups irl - gives you aliitle more clout.

As for costs - I think your'll see a drop IF starbases are restricted to where they can be placed. Building and lab research can occur in both - so why would a 0.0 alliance have them in up in high sec space. I personally think your'll see them drop in usuage and price.

High sec space does become dangerous for all 0.0 alliances. Out of the big 0.0 alliances - who isn't CA going to declare war on, and who isn't going to declare war on the nasty bad ebil CA? (of which I'm a member Confused ) That allows all those alliances to go on a gank fest on each other without sentry guns or concord getting involved. Empire is going to start empting out very slowly of 0.0 allaince members (and I see alot of various 0.0 allaince members in empire in indies Twisted Evil)...

Fianlly - Starbases... hmmm... aren't they about moon mining? I can't personally see how a small corp of less than 10 people could support a substantial mining effort with labslots, refining, defence, t2 component production and docking facilities 23/7. If you keep it in 0.4 and below - anyone can blow it away when every they like - and you can't protect it 23/7 with a sizeable force. I'm sure someone can find a way for blaming the CA for that as well...

In that sense I do think you are right - I think starbases are going to be mega corp factilites - and as such will have to be able to get around the propblems in a mega corp that the guys in a small corp don't have. Otherwise why would we have small corps? Managing all the members of a large corp is a serious pain.

PS - I call them starbases as we already have POS (player owned stations) - which had to be taken over not built, and cannot destroyed, but taken over by the new attacking group once they do enough damage.

Ruffio Sepico
Minmatar
Hidden Agenda
Deep Space Engineering
Posted - 2004.10.11 19:49:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: SPIONKOP
I think your missing the point Wren. Eve is not real life, it fun time.

To me joining a mega corp and taking "orders" and doing what I am told without much of say over who we are at war/peace with resembles real life too much. I like to enjoy myself and help the corp and its members.

I just feel sad that many players will miss out on playing such a great game because they will be forced to join a mega corp or be unable to partake in certain elements of the game.

Whilst it may be unlealistic for small corps to own/defend a POS surly they should be able to research a BPO or declare war on a small corp causing them grief but instead they can't get find a lab and have to declare war on an alliance.

Eve is fun and that should be the most important reason we play the game. No matter if you a pirate, a merc, a miner, carebear what ever.



There is several kinds of players. Ranging from the casual lax ones to the more powerplaying types. Guess which progress fastest and see best results?

It doesnt matter if your Corp got 10 members or 100 members, if its not organized, structured and active. Sure with a smaller corp you got less options available for you but that doesnt or shouldn't keep you from explore the options you actually can look into, and then do the best out of.

No one forces you to do anything in EVE, you chose your own path to go. Don't expect people to entertain you, you need to entertain yourself. So what you can't do things that bigger Corps's can becasue you lack isk and manpower. If you want to compete at that level, get the manpower and get the isk, and work towards that goal.

I'm so sick of people paint everything black and not realize what actually is avaiable for them. But sure its more comfort on sit on your *** moan, whining about what you can't do than actually work for something, and to become something.

You are your own limitation.

Ruffio Sepico
Minmatar
Hidden Agenda
Deep Space Engineering
Posted - 2004.10.11 19:52:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: DarkMatter
CCP is doing it's best to stomp out small corps...

We are the black sheep of the EVE universe...



No, they are making more options available in the game, but that doesn't necessary mean they make those options available for everyone to solo or what not. Stop moan and do something about it rather than cry about your limitations.

Decilius
Gallente
Inter Planetary Expeditions
Posted - 2004.10.11 20:06:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: CmdoColin


Put together your own alliance... If all the small corps untied - like small shops trader groups irl - gives you aliitle more clout.



Funnily enough I am in negotiations with an alliance atm to merge. Now normally I would dismiss this out of hand but they are small (4 corps) and they want to make a safe spot to mine which is what we do do a lot of so we arent completely independent anymore. SurprisedSurprisedSurprised

Myko
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2004.10.11 20:06:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: SPIONKOP

I think your missing the point Wren. Eve is not real life, it fun time.



i'd say that a sizeable percentage of the playerbase consider eve to be fun because it mirrors real life pretty accurately (many people regard eve as a second job) - the 'real life' angle to eve is what makes it so rewarding, in that if you do well it means something.

If a first person shooter is football then eve is chess - everything in eve is tactical, and thats where the fun comes from for a lot of players. If being in a small corp isnt fun for you, try doing something else. Remember, its not just your fun that matters.

Reiisha
Veto Corp
Posted - 2004.10.11 20:57:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: SPIONKOP
I would like to gauge the opinion of players as to the future of small corps. CCP seem to be making it more difficult for the smaller corps to exist and to have a role in the game. I can only see problems for the game if small corps, freelancers and newbs are forced to join the mega corps. Whilst some will join, I fear that many will simply leave the game.

The next release of shiva seems to offer much more for the mega corps than it does the smaller corps. Whilst I agree with a lot of what Shiva will deliver I am not sure the balance is right. The following are just some of the issues that concern me.


Overall, small corps are less powerful than larger ones. Why would you want otherwise? Do you want to make the work of people who got their corp to where it is now (Xanadu, OC, or even Evol) useless?

Bigger corps will always be the most dominant ones. Why? Because they are bigger. They ahve the manpower to do what they want and get what they want. Isn't that logical? Why should 10 man corps be able to do the same stuff as 200 man corps?

Originally by: SPIONKOP
A corp can not declare war on another corp in an alliance, they have to declare war on that alliance. This gives the alliance members way too much power over the smaller corps.


Why do you think they are in an alliance? Also remember, if you're at war with them, they can't simply take that war into an alliance - you can have no active wars to join an alliance.

An alliance is exactly what it says: an alliance. Mutual benefit. Ring any bells?

Originally by: SPIONKOP
Costs of Labs/Office Space/Factories. Costs will be affordable for mega corps but small corps will struggle. Also players that want to specialise in building/research can't find lab slots and new corps can't find stations in the higher sec areas.


While i agree that hoarding slots is not good, large corps need more slots than smaller ones. They got more bpo's and people to reaearch them, no?

Originally by: SPIONKOP
POS. Devs still don't seem to be sure if POS can be built in low sec empire space or not. Not sure I want to see POS in Jita, but surly they have to allow POS in 0.4 and below.


No POS in empire space. Empire space belongs to the empires, NO ONE ELSE needs to be there.

Originally by: SPIONKOP
Trade. New skills will restrict the development of small corps who wish to buy/sell items on the market as well as the new cost being applied to buy orders. Large corps can afford to specialise and have the funds to operate the market.


What stops smaller corps from having poeple specialized?

Originally by: SPIONKOP
Alliances. The cost of alliance wars will make it more cost effective to have a small number of large corps, rather than a large number of small corps. Small corps will not be able to join an alliance unless they merge.


It's still the same amount of people. 1000 people in 10 corps are the same as 1000 people in 100 corps. Manpower is the key for alliances, not corp power. Alliances co-operate, they don't have their members go about their business without thinking of other members. Essentially an alliance is 1 big corp.

Originally by: SPIONKOP
Don't get me wrong I am looking forward to Shiva and all that it offers but I do worry about the future. For Eve to grow we need to increase the number of new players to replace those that leave. IF there are no roles for the small corp, solo players etc then we lose a lot of players and discourage others from joining the game or staying long enough to see how good eve is.


Shiva is, as i see it, tailored for the alliances and big corps. Small corps should grow if they want to compete, or merge. It's that simple. Now you can agree with it or not, however, the facts are still there. Also, as i already explained, small corps should NEVER outperform larger corps. That defeats the entire point of having more people in your corp. It's just that simple that 250 people can do more than 25. More people = more people to do jobs = more profits. It's that simple Confused

Athule Snanm
Amarr
Rien Ici
Posted - 2004.10.11 21:16:00 - [20]
 

Small corps that complain about things being difficult are generally (although not always) trying to behave like big corps. Behave like a small/medium corp and you'll find you can be just as successful as a bigger one, just in a different way. Take Jericho Fraction for example, a pretty small corp but fairly well known and with plenty of very successful members - we wouldn't be where we are today by getting bogged down in all the things we can't do due to our size, or for that matter giving up on tryng to do something just because it's challenging due to our membership base.

Rocius
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2004.10.11 21:29:00 - [21]
 

I just wanna chime in here a little bit on a few points. My Corp is not at all a large one, and I do not know what our plans are as far as a station goes. I do not think that we have any plans on joining any alliances nor merging with any other Corps. Yet I am still greatly looking foreward to Shiva. I think alot of the points that Reiisha made were very valid.

The only issue I have is the one over the stations. Not that I woulod want to see them everywhere in the galaxy, but from a "realistic" (as can be expected) viewpoint, why should they NOT be allowed anywhere? Reiisha stated that Empire space should be for Empires only......I am willing to bet that MOST of the stations in Empire space are NOT owned by the Gov't's are they? No, the majority are owned by CORPORATIONS. Granted they are not player ones, but they are private buisness entities ireguardless. So from that standpoint, player Corp should be afforded the exact same luxuries that the NPC Corps get. I know that does not lead to the best of situations, but I dont see why Player Corp should not get to set up stations in Empire space, .4 at LEAST maybe even .5.

Oh well, just my .02



Synex
Gallente
PCG Enterprises
Posted - 2004.10.11 22:09:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Synex on 11/10/2004 22:12:08
Originally by: SPIONKOP
To me joining a mega corp and taking "orders" and doing what I am told without much of say over who we are at war/peace with resembles real life too much. I like to enjoy myself and help the corp and its members.


If this is what a mega-corp wants from you, then you are definatly looking at the wrong Corps. There are a shed-load of 'mega-corps' out there that encourage and support solo-play.

Take myself and BIG for example. I solo played for a long time, mined my way into several Battleships, but started getting very bored (and lonely) in game. I joined BIG and have been having a whale of a time since. BIG almost never 'orders' its members, and its great being in a megacorp for several reasons:

I have a load more opportunities to have fun... The FA is always getting attacked by someone, which provides loads of opporunities for some PvP against some really good pilots. 0.0 space is full of good mining belts, NPC pirates, agents and lots of other opportunities. Always having 5-20 people online means there is always something going on that you can team up with, or just go off on your own if you feel like it. If you feel that joining a mega-corp would 'stifle' your gameplay, then you are looking at the wrong corps.


Lufio II
Amarr
Marangrio Space Services Inc.
Posted - 2004.10.12 09:44:00 - [23]
 

Well, I personally think that both types of corps do have their own distinct advantages and disadventages.
Small Corps are more flexible when it comes to moving around. For my own small Corp it's like we're deciding mutually that we don't like our current place anymore and want to move somewhere else. Then we get our stuff together, refine what's not needed and after 2 days we're done moving completely. Flexibility is what makes small corps more efficient when it comes to fast reactions to new market situations or whatever.

MegaCorps lack that flexibility because of their pure size. But due to their amount of manpower they can of course take on larger projects, which smaller corps would take an eternity for.

Small or Mega Corporation... those two require completely different styles of management and in my eyes one complements each other very well if done right. Let the MegaCorp produce the big stuff, while the Small Corps runs deliveries or produces Ammo (for a price) that would just clog up the slots that could be actually used for building mor BIG stuff or plainly take too much time away from defending that station over there.

At the very everyone has to deside for himself which style he prefers, and which corp suits him best. (I haven't found one that suits me, so I founded one that does Laughing)


 

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