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Wren
Minmatar
x13
IT Alliance
Posted - 2004.10.10 10:58:00 - [1]
 

Ganking is using absurd advantage over another player for the sole reason of blowing them up.

Ganking isn't about war, or profit, or territorial defense, it's about a quick fix for boredom or for amusement, the "wtfpwn" factor.

Combat is matching skill on skill. True warriors are those who fight when they know that they can be defeated.

What CCP has done has made a game where it is no longer smart or fun to be a warrior. Instead, gankfests and gank-o-rama artists are growing and growing, and the art of combat is being slowly staked through the heart.

So, you might ask, "Why are you blaming CCP?"

Well, it's simple.

This game is all about the fastest kill with the least amount of danger.

Well, that's nothing new, every pvp game has to have this struggle, the meta gamers find out ways to push the limits so that they have advantage over everybody else, that gets nerfed and they find another way, the world revolves the game evolves and if it doesn't, it dies.

But... but CCP has made a game where it takes so long to find a target, so long and hard to get this target to not run away, and then so short of a time to finish him off once you find and capture this target, that there is no time for fighting.

Who would agree that 80% of the pvp of this game is finding someone to shoot, then 15% stopping/scrambing/trapping/fooling/surprising this somebody, and then a short not even sweet 5% fighting, usually with vastly superior advantage, either in ship size or numbers or both?

This general boredom and the long buildup time between kills leads to lots of players just becoming gankers. Why risk all your stuff in fair fights? It's not smart, and getting blown up isn't fun (usually, though I beg to differ, I had some serious fun getting blown up by PIE and DS back in the day).

Will I draw some flames for this?

Maybe, but I just want to point out the symptoms.

You got experience veteran players joining corps just so they can open up on them in high security space since concord doesn't do crap if you are in the same corp as someone else. You got vastly knowledgeable players who find out that the best way to have fun is to be a pirate and shoot anything that moves. The number of gankers is growing. They travel around in huge packs waiting to jump someone who is practically defenseless against them. It doesn't look good for the new guy. A game without new guys dies. Think about that.

Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
Cloakers
Posted - 2004.10.10 11:11:00 - [2]
 

I think you'll find that throughout history the ganker has always existed and won. Warefare has always been about gaining an unfair advantage and then exploiting that advantage to the maximum. Eve is realistic in this respect. Your warriors are just fictional romantic hogwash though :)

I do agree with you on the 80% finding, 15% catching and 5% fighting thing though. Hopefully this new not showing up in local may adjust these percentages a bit.

Infinity

H Zub
Captain Morgan Society
Privateer Alliance
Posted - 2004.10.10 11:12:00 - [3]
 

What will it look like with the new war declaration system Sad

Wren
Minmatar
x13
IT Alliance
Posted - 2004.10.10 11:16:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Infinity Ziona
I think you'll find that throughout history the ganker has always existed and won. Warefare has always been about gaining an unfair advantage and then exploiting that advantage to the maximum. Eve is realistic in this respect. Your warriors are just fictional romantic hogwash though :)

I do agree with you on the 80% finding, 15% catching and 5% fighting thing though. Hopefully this new not showing up in local may adjust these percentages a bit.

Infinity


How fun is it to watch history lessons?

Why should a game be created where it rewards the spineless and cowardly?

Maybe I am a romantic, I picked the Minmatar back in beta to make a difference in the EVE galaxy by being a freedom fighter. But CCP squashed that dream when they didn't even think or consider the fact that people would try to rescue slaves. Duh.

Estroth Chin
Posted - 2004.10.10 11:21:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Estroth Chin on 10/10/2004 11:27:02
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
I think you'll find that throughout history the ganker has always existed and won.


The former may be true, but they dont allways win. Its then the True warriors & heros show.

Edit: (oh and just because you loose, doesnt mean your not a hero or a true warrior either)

Ulendar
M34t p0p s1ckle Manufacturing
Privateer Alliance
Posted - 2004.10.10 11:30:00 - [6]
 

Ok good point but seriously. CCP with their uber concord and uber sentry policies are creating a totally different brand of nubs. Hell i have played games where PVP was not possible and felt more threatened then i do when im flying a char through empire space.

Why is CCP handicapping all these new guys by giving them the illusion that EVE is safe? Are they afraid that there might a few people who dont like EVE and leave? Do they really think that wont happen nomatter what?! I'm all for not just throwing nubs into the sharktank and hoping they find a rock to hide under till they grow up. But seriously, if there is a safe place in EVE then it should be very limited and only introduce you to the basic of the game. As soon as you are familiar with the game then things should get a bit more risky because that will prepare you for what EVE really is... a dangerous place!

CCP cannot change this game into a completely safe non PVP game at this stage without changing it completely and imho that would mean the death of EVE...So why on earth do they keep trying? Didnt THEY decide what this game was going to be like?! Why the hell do they keep trying to change it now?? O_o

I understand your views on ganking. The thing with EVE is that its located in space. And space...well is BIG. Alot of places to hide, its not like a game that situates itself on earth or some other 'surface' world. You can always track a person, drive him into a corner and cap him. People get used to being challenged and they become more willing to take a stand. In space however people quickly learn better ways to run and hide instead of fight.

And so you get a situation where you spend most of your time tracking down players, then spend a good amount of time making sure they wont get away again and then finally you spend a slight amount of time killing them. The result is that wars in EVE revolve highly around intel and counterintel.

In RP corporations this is different. Both want to kill eachother, its mutual PVP. Both parties will agree on a place to fight, both parties will agree to fight honorably ectect. This leads to less searching and making sure the person doesnt run and MORE actual fighting.

Unfortunitly very little poeple in EVE will ever agree to an honorable fight and then honor their agreement. Most will try and scam/backstab you and then run away or disappear.

The amount of gankings are due to the way this game is designed. The HARDER CCP makes it to get a clean kill on someone, the more people will turn to ganking.

In the early stages of the game it was easy as pie to avoid a pirate blockade or to avoid being killed. If you had half of half a brain there is no way you can get capped. And back then there were NO sentries at any gates except high sec empire O_o. Infact i recall that TTI payed m0o to pass through their mara/passari blockades because they thought it was tomuch of a hassle to go around a few systems. Today that notion would be rediculous!

People find new and better ways to gank because the easy ways have been eliminated. The problem is that easy ways of pirating are easily avoided or countered. When people start with advanced alt networks and such things then you get to a point wher enew players do not stand a chance because the knowledge gap is so huge that newbs are practically a no brainer for older players.

IF pirating for example was easyer... Lets say you could set up gatecamps without concord hassle in 0.2 space, then said pirates would nto have to resort to said tactics where they join a corp and kill their own corpmates or declare socalled 'griefer wars'. Its all a bunch of dung that got created when CCP tryed to chance the gameplay of this game...albeit 3 years to late!

Shamis Orzoz
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2004.10.10 11:31:00 - [7]
 

blah blah blah YARRRR!!

Ulendar
M34t p0p s1ckle Manufacturing
Privateer Alliance
Posted - 2004.10.10 11:32:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Wren
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
I think you'll find that throughout history the ganker has always existed and won. Warefare has always been about gaining an unfair advantage and then exploiting that advantage to the maximum. Eve is realistic in this respect. Your warriors are just fictional romantic hogwash though :)

I do agree with you on the 80% finding, 15% catching and 5% fighting thing though. Hopefully this new not showing up in local may adjust these percentages a bit.

Infinity


How fun is it to watch history lessons?

Why should a game be created where it rewards the spineless and cowardly?

Maybe I am a romantic, I picked the Minmatar back in beta to make a difference in the EVE galaxy by being a freedom fighter. But CCP squashed that dream when they didn't even think or consider the fact that people would try to rescue slaves. Duh.


Heh i made this char minmatar for the exact same reason... After about 7 months of playing i finally realised that EVE had changed somuch it wouldn't be possible anymore...i was a bit ****ed to say the least. But well im back now because PVP in EVE, is although hard, still possible and still worth it imho. Only i kill everything now and not for RP or antislavery but for profit :D

Wren
Minmatar
x13
IT Alliance
Posted - 2004.10.10 11:48:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Ulendar
Ok good point but seriously. CCP with their uber concord and uber sentry policies .....[snip snip] a bunch of dung that got created when CCP tryed to change the gameplay of this game...albeit 3 years to late!


Ah, but what is the difference between 'surface' games and space? Why isn't there tracking skill that let you follow a ship around? In the FAQ before launch, it said that each ship had a different id # that could be tracked. That's true, the GM/devs has used this sorta tagging system to locate exploiters with isk/ships/mods. Why can't we players get some tools so that we can have decent player run defense and bounty hunting forces? It should only be safe in a station or cloaked, or in .5 -> 1.0 space.

I agree, once the zombie incident, the sentries and concord eliminated a vast number of options for pirates.

Also, Role Playing corps don't run around in 0.0 space. That space is populated by the so called '1337'. Those who couldn't give two shakes about RP, or even any sort of interaction besides ganking/fighting.

Here is what should happen. Agents should allow you to get a prelim general area of your enemies. After that, skills and moduals on your ship should allow you to track these targets. Different skills and moduals should allow you to warp to them, but it would be like a gang warp, and better if it was like 60K away. This would help you if they were safe spotted, but if they were moving around you would always just end up in empty space. You would have to chase them around until you could trap them at a gate or station.

The next thing would be to make the fighting ... better. I know there is talk about upping the hitpoints of all the ships, but maybe that isn't enough. There should be counter mods to every mod. But the most used mods don't have good defenses. We need mobile/remote warp stabalizers. Mobile/remote webifier neutralizes, but we also need other ways to trap a ship.

Anyway, it's late and I have to leave. Bye.

Admiral IceBlock
Caldari
Northern Intelligence
Posted - 2004.10.10 11:53:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Admiral IceBlock on 10/10/2004 11:58:23
well i agree, but what could be done to make combat better instead of superior numbers vs one loner?

i think that the reason why eve is mostly about numbers is becouse of combat being "turn based" instead of "real time" (like freelancer). becouse no pilot can really excel in combat when engaging the enemy like dodge around and strike from behind, you just warp in and fire your guns...

MaiLina KaTar
Posted - 2004.10.10 11:56:00 - [11]
 

Quote:
well i agree, but what could be done to make combat better instead of superior numbers vs one loner?


POS.

kurg
Posted - 2004.10.10 12:11:00 - [12]
 

I agree that the worst part of eve is those that you describe, but Im a little disappointed that you dont present a possible solution.

Generally the problem is that its 'too easy to run' (and hide)especially in a one on one situation.

This all comes down to warping, if there was no warping people wouldnt be able to run as easily.

But obviously we cant remove warping, then traveling would take years and years ;)

So the solution must lie in the gamemechanics around warping, we want to make travelling easy (possibly less easy to travel great distances, especially in low sec, but thats another story), but we want to make it less simple to 'run and hide'....

One possible solution could be that weapons discharging would destabilize warpcores, thus it would take some time after someone hit you, or you fired a weapon until you will be able to warp. Fitting warpcores would reduce this time.
Also as yu sustain damage your ship loose agility, so you loose speed.

Ofcourse this would change a lot of the way battles are fought, so it would need to be tested (on the dev server).

But I think we need something along these lines to open up more 'real combat' not just 20 gankers nuking everything at a gate.

Btw. Id love if the largemass->drop out of warp, idea got implemented too, ie: when traveling through a system you would need to do several warps if there were large mass objects on/near your path, this would spread out possible combat zones.

Sally
Caldari
Posted - 2004.10.10 12:49:00 - [13]
 

Yep. PvP is dead.

People kill you 20 vs 1 and say good fight.

Yawn.

Sun Wu
Caldari
Evolution
Posted - 2004.10.10 12:51:00 - [14]
 

Combat is great, it's not hard to find safespots, and that'll get easier with shiva, it's not hard to keep someone from running either. If you can't do those you simply suck at EVE. It's really that simple. Evolve or die.

kurg
Posted - 2004.10.10 13:01:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Sun Wu
Combat is great, it's not hard to find safespots, and that'll get easier with shiva, it's not hard to keep someone from running either. If you can't do those you simply suck at EVE. It's really that simple. Evolve or die.



ultra safies, that are located 200+ au from the sun is pretty hard to find, the scanner doesnt reach that far.

keeping someone from running require you to get within 10km of them and usually even closer, this will usually require a fast frig, and backup firepower...

... which means we're back at ganking....

Sally
Caldari
Posted - 2004.10.10 13:12:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Sun Wu
Combat is great, it's not hard to find safespots, and that'll get easier with shiva, it's not hard to keep someone from running either. If you can't do those you simply suck at EVE. It's really that simple. Evolve or die.


Maybe you fight idiots only.

So maybe you are the one who sucks here.

Just a guess.

Barth3zzzNL
Gallente
Coreli Corporation
Posted - 2004.10.10 13:15:00 - [17]
 

Killing safespots would fix a lot, if you could scout trough a system and find enemies fairly fast then neither side can sit at a safespot scanning gates and ganking every lone ship.

Speeding up travelling would help as well, i spend half my play time moving around, which is REALLY boring and such a big waste of my time.

kurg
Posted - 2004.10.10 13:17:00 - [18]
 

its a balance I think it would be stupid if you could travel from venal to curse in 5 minutes.

space is huge, so if you want to travel far you need to spend time doing so

Discorporation
Amarr
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2004.10.10 13:20:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: kurg



ultra safies, that are located 200+ au from the sun is pretty hard to find, the scanner doesnt reach that far.

keeping someone from running require you to get within 10km of them and usually even closer, this will usually require a fast frig, and backup firepower...

... which means we're back at ganking....


Those 200+AU ones are the easiest to find Wink

Sally
Caldari
Posted - 2004.10.10 13:23:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Discorporation
Originally by: kurg



ultra safies, that are located 200+ au from the sun is pretty hard to find, the scanner doesnt reach that far.

keeping someone from running require you to get within 10km of them and usually even closer, this will usually require a fast frig, and backup firepower...

... which means we're back at ganking....


Those 200+AU ones are the easiest to find Wink


Yeah.

And if your enemy fleet is warping all the time between some decent safespots you will never find them.

Joshua Calvert
Caldari
Rule One
Posted - 2004.10.10 13:24:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Sally
Originally by: Discorporation
Originally by: kurg



ultra safies, that are located 200+ au from the sun is pretty hard to find, the scanner doesnt reach that far.

keeping someone from running require you to get within 10km of them and usually even closer, this will usually require a fast frig, and backup firepower...

... which means we're back at ganking....


Those 200+AU ones are the easiest to find Wink


Yeah.

And if your enemy fleet is warping all the time between some decent safespots you will never find them.


It'd be easier and smarter to just log out if that's all you're gonna do.

Galk
Gallente
Autumn Tactics
All the things she said
Posted - 2004.10.10 13:28:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Admiral IceBlock


i think that the reason why eve is mostly about numbers is becouse of combat being "turn based" instead of "real time" (like freelancer). becouse no pilot can really in combat when engaging the enemy like dodge around and strike from behind, you just warp in and fire your guns...


I like it iceblock, over a year of playing it, i think thats the first time iv'e ever seen anybody admit to that.

Personaly id love realtime, i was a twitch addict, but this is the game we play, it's point and click, atributes... not sure you could mix the two tbh.

What it is certainly not is a 'skilled pilot' it takes confidence yes... but not skill in that sence, thats just a pretty word.

Your best strengh in battle becomes from understanding and timing, with level heads, and the ability to adapt to situations, despite best layed plans.

Now thats not a world away from quake itself, or freelancer if you willSmile

Skilled, just call it confidence with understanding.





Negotiator H4x
Posted - 2004.10.10 13:37:00 - [23]
 

Even the best fleets aren't mobile enough to do that Molly. And shush, you dont fight in fleets anyway...

Discorporation
Amarr
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2004.10.10 13:41:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Sally


Yeah.

And if your enemy fleet is warping all the time between some decent safespots you will never find them.


Can't exactly stop 'em from warping around, can we. It's not like there's 200 AU range warp disruptors :|

MaiLina KaTar
Posted - 2004.10.10 13:48:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 10/10/2004 13:52:57
People don't fight larger fleets because there is no reason to do so. Why should you risk a 500m+ isk fleet when you're fighting out of pure boredom and/or just for kicks? That's stupid and busting safeposts won't change a damn thing about it.

People don't fight because there is no valid ingame reason to do it. Killing safespots won't change anything because people will simply dock at stations, safespot and log out immediately or do whatever they have to do to keep their ships. If they can't keep them they will not even bother to move out of highsec so what's the point?

You have to provide a valid and worthwhile reason for someone to fight you, not force them into a fight by taking away all gameplay mechanisms that might be able to save them. If you do that, they'll stay in highsec or simply leave the game.

Sally
Caldari
Posted - 2004.10.10 13:53:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Negotiator H4x
Even the best fleets aren't mobile enough to do that Molly. And shush, you dont fight in fleets anyway...


Yup.

Cause it's very hard to have one dude warping to somewhere and to say warp to me each 5 minutes.

And yeah, in none of my movies I made, there is a fleet I have been in.

Get a life.

Negotiator H4x
Posted - 2004.10.10 13:56:00 - [27]
 

1st. I havent seen any movies you've made.
2nd. If you had any kind of sizable fleet in a safespot, you would know that its hard to keep people awake at all times. Alot of people go afk to go to the bathroom, get food, smoke, etc. So warping a fleet every 5 minutes isnt as easy as you make it sound, noob. :)

Kisses and <3, Nego!

Sally
Caldari
Posted - 2004.10.10 14:15:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Negotiator H4x
1st. I havent seen any movies you've made.
2nd. If you had any kind of sizable fleet in a safespot, you would know that its hard to keep people awake at all times. Alot of people go afk to go to the bathroom, get food, smoke, etc. So warping a fleet every 5 minutes isnt as easy as you make it sound, noob. :)

Kisses and <3, Nego!


Not my fault you have to keep the cannon-fodder from Evo and CFS awake.

You know, there is always an excuse for something. But the fact remains, if you do not want to be found, if you do not want to fight, it is easy in EVE to achieve that (you do not even have to log for that (Joshua)). And that is what the original poster said.

People prefer to gather a gank group and to sit somewhere or move around and clean out blobs.

On the fleets and movies, if you don't know what the people are doing in the game, just shut up. Or does something like "all m0o have been copying blueprints in Yulai the last year and they actually never fought anywhere" sound any smart?

Buyakan
tr0pa de elite
Posted - 2004.10.10 17:12:00 - [29]
 

Wow have u learned nothing from human nature.... You sir need to read Sun Tzu The Art of War.

Rod Blaine
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2004.10.10 20:01:00 - [30]
 

Sorry Wren, but you're talking crap here.

As much as the ethics of the bushido code may be attractive, inserting honour into an inherently honourless conflict of intrest just isn't the most effective way of serving that intrest.

War should be brutal, complete, and using every tool availiable. Be it gank, empire war, camping, spying or even ore thieving. War is total, it's the ultimate form of competition where one side goes to any length as long as it serves their intrest.

the bushido wasn't overridden by cultural progress and the evolution of warfare for no reason you know.



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