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Diicc Tater
Aggressive Tendencies
Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2004.10.12 09:39:00 - [211]
 

Edited by: Diicc Tater on 12/10/2004 09:43:11
My hopes are that these POS' will, combined with a new aligence system make it possible for small Mining Corps to travel to a 0.1 sys and pay for their precense by mining and refining in one of the Mega Corps POS.
That way more people will be able to travle and trade with low sec ppl. This will provide not only tax money for the corps with POS but also more prey for their restless neighbours. I think it will benefit the whole playerbase. I am soooo looking forward to this. I have a small corp of 5 qualified miners and I can't justify my right to own a POS, no way we can muster the money and protection it takes. I can however help someone else and still gain from it... depending on what tax I have to pay.
That is one way POS in 0.0 and 0.1 will make this game more fun for me atleast. Who know what'll happen later.
Since 0.0 is no-mans-land until claimed by someone there is no tax to pay to The Man. If POS are alowed in 0.2-0.9 there is mining-rights to buy and taxes to pay.....

San diablo
Posted - 2004.10.12 09:43:00 - [212]
 

Edited by: San diablo on 12/10/2004 09:50:27
well, here's something to think about, 0.0 POS ok players can defend and attack them
0.1-0.4 POS ok players can defend and attack them
0.5+ POS, if a player is defending them, and they get attacked, doesn't CONCORD warp in and kill the attacker?
espeically if it's like a 0.9 system or 1.0.
upto 0.4 space i can understand, as people can be killed in 0.4 space without concord interfering, but how will 0.5+ POS's work? the attacker shoot's and concord pwn's them?

edit: also POS's in 0.1-0.4 systems should have some kind of relation to the empire it's in, i mean a corp with a -10 standing with amarr empire shouldn't be allowed to place any POS's in amarr space, also those with more then 2 -5 standings to any of the empires shouldn't be allowed any kind of POS in the whole of empire(as it would upset too many diplomats from the races they have -5 too)

Marcus Aurelius
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2004.10.12 10:04:00 - [213]
 

Heh

This discussion has not progressed much in the last few pages.

For the sake of keeping the discussion untainted with halfassed guessed and presumtious whining about things not real can I request that everyione involved keeps from commenting or fantasising about POS mechanics, the war system, security in low security space and everyday life in 0.0 unless the ACTUALLY ****ing know anything about it.

Thank you, that part was particularly annoying to me.
If you want to get somewhere you'll have to trust the judgement of people that actually have firsthand experience
of testing POS and of life in all professions and security zones in Eve. I see so much bull**** being spouted here by people that have not even the least of clues as to what 0.0 space is all about.

Discorporation
Amarr
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2004.10.12 10:08:00 - [214]
 

Edited by: Discorporation on 12/10/2004 10:11:21
Originally by: S'Daria
Dev chat:
Originally by: "EVE Dev Chat"

Oveur> and at this point in time, I wouldn't exclude 0.5-0.7 in exchange for a hefty "rent", where you buy the "moon mining rights" from the sovereignty




That's exactly why I'm against highsec pos.

For every 1 tower and harvester Joe McN00b can afford, hardcore alliance member can afford 10. For every million Joe McN00b places, hardcore alliance member will get ten. Assuming 1 million per hour results 240 million ISKs per day for a hardcore alliance member, risk-free with no effort other then keeping the base supplied with consumables.

That's 2.4 billion isks risk-free per 10 days.

Declaring war will bring down the wrath of an entire alliance on the war declarer.

Marcus Aurelius
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2004.10.12 10:10:00 - [215]
 

Originally by: Etienne
Originally by: DeFood
Frankly, wether or not CCP allow them in high sec or not, the only corps with enough muscle and presence to guard them are the 0.0 alliances. If empire corps build POS they become herd animals. Their only safety lies in numbers - the vain hope that there are so many other empire corps that they will be ignored for now. Of course, in the fullness of time, destruction is inevitable. Even in 1.0


"their only safety lies in numbers" - yes, for example smaller (non political) corps in empirespace which have a POS in the same area, could agree to a mutual defence pact :)


Yes of course !

But what if alliance X wardecs empire corp Y which happens to be the owner of POS 1 ? How exactly is corp Z going to wardec ALL of alliance X just to be able to help in defence ?

Let me tell you: they won't. Instead, Corp Y uses the 24 hour period they have upon war declaration to dismantle their pos and rebuild it under an altcorp name. Aftetr that setting security rating and giving out some passwords is all that is needed to have the pos online again and uable by corp Y, but without any risk of Alliance X attacking it.

Empire corps use the alt route out already, whats gonna change about that ? One mroe reason for no pos in 0.5+.

Schroni
PPN United
Posted - 2004.10.12 14:50:00 - [216]
 

Edited by: Schroni on 12/10/2004 15:10:40
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Im not going to waste breath responding to all the carebears in this thread, they won't understand logic and whats better for the game because they want to play with starbases without risking themselves.

Simply put, starbases are high end content. High end isn't how much skillpoints you have, it isn't how much experience you have, it isn't how much money or reputation you have. Nor is it how big your fleet is, and how many battleships you've killed in the last week. High end gameplay is a mindset. Those people who tackle the biggest challenges should be rewarded with the biggest toys.

Whether you succeed or fail in the game of risk doesn't matter. At the end of the day you tried, and you learned. Go out there, stake your claim to some resources, and your right to harvest them. Find something you really like thats already claimed? Contest that claim. The day CCP puts everyone on an equal playing field no matter now much willpower, desire and motivation they have is the day I stop playing EVE. Nuff said.

I'll be out there, and I'll be ready. Will you?


couldn't have said it better

/me claps Very Happy

another thing just came to my mind. I'm really surprised that so many people think that their POS would be attacked by pirates/gank squads/whatever all the time. In my opinion (i'm a pirate myself) it's just not worth it, atleast not in empire space.

First of all, all POS can and of course should have some defensive modules setup. Like 4 cruise missiles turrets, 4 torp turrets and some laser turrets and what not. To beat that you'd need atleast a group of several battleships, and even then it would take them quite some time to break the defence of a POS.

Do you honestly think a group of pirates would really bother attacking your POS for even longer then 30 minutes, and in the process risking their ships? It's just not worth it imo. Sure, there might be some people who just play the game to destroy things, but given the time and effort it would cause them, i don't think it's very likely.

Another point is that i assume that with POS it's the same as with player ships, you'll take security status hits should you attack it. So all you have to do is find a empire system which is surrounded by 0.5+ systems. There's plenty of those.

I can't honestly imagine a group of players taking a whole fleet into those space, attacking your POS, totally fecking up their security status and finally beeing stuck in that area cause they can't move thru the boardering high sec systems anymore.

Should people be able to build POS in empire space, all i see is a large rise in war declarations just to be able to destroy POS... And i don't think thats what CCP wants...

my 0.02 isk YARRRR!!

DarkMatter
Sintered Sanity
Posted - 2004.10.12 15:30:00 - [217]
 

Edited by: DarkMatter on 12/10/2004 15:35:27
Quote:
Already done, and you can buy it on the market now and call it whatever you want.

Default name is 'Giant Secure Container'

Ok, so its not a hangar, and it doesn't cost 125mil, but it is about as good as PoS should be in safe space


Giant secures are about as useful as a cucumber in a dildo factory.

It's amazing how little respect all of you have for the largest part of the EVE community.

This game is so bass ackwards sometimes...

Quote:
Should people be able to build POS in empire space, all i see is a large rise in war declarations just to be able to destroy POS... And i don't think thats what CCP wants...


From the get go, corp wars were to be the main PvP element in EVE, it has not turned out that way. Gate ganking has been the mainstay for the PvP crowd, don't think that is what CCP intended...

Psychomar
Posted - 2004.10.12 15:48:00 - [218]
 

Disco is right about rich 0.0 alliances buying up all the mining rights in empire if they allow them to be bought. Someone also said more labslots would flood empire with BPC that is true as well. On possible solution is no more lab slots at all. Anywhere. The ones in 0.0 space are already the property of the 0.0 alliances. But how many empire ones also belong to 0.0 alliances? If they are allowed to put labslots in POS then maybe 0.0 alliance members should be prohibited from owning lab slots in empire? Empire is a fixed number while 0.0 will not be. If they can build their own POS and labslots in 0.0 space they should not also be able to use empire ones. The reward theyre so keen on could be the fact they can build as many as they want. I wonder how many 0.0 corps actually have a large presence in empire as alts or miners? Id bet alot of them do. They want the best of both worlds. I dont think they should have it. Let them have the reward of high end ores and the reward of POS but let them also have all the risk. They hide behind the risk and reward argument yet Id bet 90% of them are actually in empire using labs and working. They dont deserve to be in empire using their risk and reward theory.

Psychomar

DarkMatter
Sintered Sanity
Posted - 2004.10.12 15:59:00 - [219]
 

Not much you can do about ppl paying for multiple accounts Psychomar...

TheNecromancer
Caldari
The Royal Order
Posted - 2004.10.12 16:23:00 - [220]
 

The only one who wants POS not no to be in empire is pirates...so simple is that...

Xor X
Posted - 2004.10.12 16:26:00 - [221]
 

OMG!!! not a ugh & not a YARRRR!! but OMG! Shocked

i don't believe this, ya'll are joking right???

like we want to warp around crashing into POSs everywhere, getting shot at by uber guns etc., everytime we warp to a moon???

get real.. these things were supposed to take uber resources/skills to build in the first place and the same to keep them in place, as well as protection night & day. wasn't that the original plans for POS??

if i see 1000s of these things everywhere trashing up eve like the million containers that were floating around before, then i might leave. so there!!! Razz

nay, nay, a-boo-boo, now i'm a bigger baby than you!!! Cool

Sosona
Posted - 2004.10.12 18:45:00 - [222]
 

Originally by: Einheriar Ulrich
From a game point of view "The old settled npc corps and empire controlled fractions" would not let your build POS in their space.


And why exactly wouldnt they?

POS means Player owned structure. That many people here make a "player owned system control" from it, is purely in their mind*.

Actually if i am rich enough and preferably have a good relation to the local power, i can build nearly anything within their protected space (basically as long as they profit from it, dont need the space themselves, i honor their laws and it doesnt threaten them). It is merely a matter of money and more or less good relations.

If how people argue in this thread was true, the only entity who would build buildings/factories/whatever in New York, would be the US government Rolling Eyes

Originally by: Einheriar Ulrich
second, this is a PvP game, everything in this game is PvP, from agressive market trade, to forcing others to mine i lesser systems, because you hold the best, or have allready mined it, or because your agent is better that the other competitor trying to do agent missions, face it, EVE is a PvP game, its player vs player. in everything from mining to combat.

If your want Pve, go play another game, if you want to be left alone and do everything yourself,play a singleplayer game.


Many empirespace miners, traders, npc hunters, agent runners, scouts and even producers will be baffled that everything is pvp.

De facto eve isnt pvp only as you want to make it look like, it has many many ways of having fun and making ISK beside pvp. I dont mind if you want to argue with me against that, but before you do so - please have a look at planetside or quake or unreal tournament which are purely pvp and then compare it with eve.

Originally by: Einheriar Ulrich
POS, shouldnt be build in secure space, for game mechanic reasons. If you are protected under the empires, how can i conquer or destroy your POSQuestion


You basically cant, thats my main point of putting a POS in 0.5+. That many people who posted into this thread cant understand the point of something they cant destroy, says a lot about them and few about the topic.

However ultimately (meaning not in this lifetime) some player alliance should overrun the existing NPC empires - at least if i remember the story hints in my original eve package right but it has been a while since i read it Very Happy

*: From what i know about POS (havent tried them on sisi yet), they just "claim" some moon. I couldnt care less if a moon is claimed in a system. If you travel through, use the stations, mine or npc hunt - you wont even notice that. That can hardly be called "owning a system".

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2004.10.12 18:49:00 - [223]
 

Edited by: Avon on 12/10/2004 19:15:05
Originally by: TheNecromancer
The only one who wants POS not no to be in empire is pirates...so simple is that...


That clearly isn't true.
Either you haven't read all the posts, or you are just trolling.

Are you saying that my point of view is invalid because this character is a pirate in game?

The fact that I was a beta tester, played since release and am currently testing Shiva counts for nothing?
The fact that I play all aspects of Eve, and have a deep and fundemental understanding of the game mechanics is negated because this character is ebil?

I want balance, challenge and diversity.
I want player driven content, and the tools to provide it.

POS in safe space detracts from the game as a whole.
I have a character which runs a very large and very wealthy corp in Empire space. It is on a different account and has no financial connection with Avon. That character could exploit POS in Empire space to their maximum potential, and has the resources and manpower to do it. They would give him and his corp more things to do, and more money making potential, and yet I still argue against them. Not because I want pirates to have an easier life, or because I want carebears to have a harder / more boring life; but because POS in safe space are unbalancing to the game as a whole.

I argue for Eve, not for any one player group.

If you see Avon posting it is because the 'ebil pk rat' view is the correct one to maintain game balance. When the 'soft and cuddly carebear' view is correct I post with a different character.


Bottom line is that my opinion (as a person, not as a character) is that POS in Empire space can not be balanced unless they are a huge money sink with no profit making potential. However, if they were introduced as such there is a chance that they could be 'tweaked' to keep players happy until they became unbalancing to the game structure. Because of this I think is better to never introduce them in safe space, and to make it clear that they will never be allowed there.

Eve will be ruined by the narrow minded, self interested group of players who are unwilling to play it because they fear the challenge. They want it moulded to suit them, and frankly if CCP keep giving in to them it will become nothing more than Eve in name. Eve has already become too safe and too easy, and yet lazy or stupid (not sure which) people still want it made more fluffy and maybe pastel shaded. Why should the people who have grown to love Eve for its harshness, danger and challenge have to adapt to suit them, have to surrender the game they love for a kiddies version?

Enough of the Eve-tendo trend.

Einheriar Ulrich
Minmatar
Vengeance of the Fallen
Syndicate.
Posted - 2004.10.12 19:11:00 - [224]
 

Originally by: Sosona
Originally by: Einheriar Ulrich
From a game point of view "The old settled npc corps and empire controlled fractions" would not let your build POS in their space.


And why exactly wouldnt they?

POS means Player owned structure. That many people here make a "player owned system control" from it, is purely in their mind*.

Actually if i am rich enough and preferably have a good relation to the local power, i can build nearly anything within their protected space (basically as long as they profit from it, dont need the space themselves, i honor their laws and it doesnt threaten them). It is merely a matter of money and more or less good relations.

If how people argue in this thread was true, the only entity who would build buildings/factories/whatever in New York, would be the US government Rolling Eyes

Originally by: Einheriar Ulrich
second, this is a PvP game, everything in this game is PvP, from agressive market trade, to forcing others to mine i lesser systems, because you hold the best, or have allready mined it, or because your agent is better that the other competitor trying to do agent missions, face it, EVE is a PvP game, its player vs player. in everything from mining to combat.

If your want Pve, go play another game, if you want to be left alone and do everything yourself,play a singleplayer game.


Many empirespace miners, traders, npc hunters, agent runners, scouts and even producers will be baffled that everything is pvp.

De facto eve isnt pvp only as you want to make it look like, it has many many ways of having fun and making ISK beside pvp. I dont mind if you want to argue with me against that, but before you do so - please have a look at planetside or quake or unreal tournament which are purely pvp and then compare it with eve.

Originally by: Einheriar Ulrich
POS, shouldnt be build in secure space, for game mechanic reasons. If you are protected under the empires, how can i conquer or destroy your POSQuestion


You basically cant, thats my main point of putting a POS in 0.5+. That many people who posted into this thread cant understand the point of something they cant destroy, says a lot about them and few about the topic.

However ultimately (meaning not in this lifetime) some player alliance should overrun the existing NPC empires - at least if i remember the story hints in my original eve package right but it has been a while since i read it Very Happy

*: From what i know about POS (havent tried them on sisi yet), they just "claim" some moon. I couldnt care less if a moon is claimed in a system. If you travel through, use the stations, mine or npc hunt - you wont even notice that. That can hardly be called "owning a system".


PvP, do not only mean combat, ist Player V Player, if the economi should be playerdriven, it also means that you can corner the market, produce better and mine more, which is another way of PvP.

Second, i dont think, if you take into consideration, that this game is a MMORpg, that the empires will allow any players, to build and harness their precius ressources in their space i.g like moons and such.

Their has to be some core element of risk in this game, without it it would be no challenge, thus boring.

What you want is playerowned HQ, situated in empire space, preferbly in 0.5 to 1.0 sec space, so you cannot be attacked or destroyed. That goes against this game is.

Their are plenty of 0.4 to 0.0 systems in empire space not settled, go build there, but take some risk.

I can just imagine, everyone with the wallet for it, building a POS stucture in Pator, yulai or Amarr.

I dont think its gonna happen anywayWink the DEVS will not ruin their game this way.

You dont need a POS structure in secure empire space, their are plenty of stations there allready.

POS is designed to help setle the frontier, not making empire space more crowded.

I am sorry you think PvP only has to do with actual combat, but everytime, you force someone away from the market, mining fields or get the best agents, thats PvP, someone is going to be the looser, get it nowCool

Sorry if i offended you, it was not intended.

Sosona
Posted - 2004.10.12 20:21:00 - [225]
 

Edited by: Sosona on 12/10/2004 20:26:17
Originally by: Einheriar Ulrich
PvP, do not only mean combat, ist Player V Player, if the economi should be playerdriven, it also means that you can corner the market, produce better and mine more, which is another way of PvP.


Been there - done that. I made some billions completely on my own and some of the income came from cornering markets and pressing other people out of it. However it isnt really necessary to do it, as an example you can sit happily in 0.6 or 0.7 or even 0.9 systems in empirespace and mine several million ISK each hour without any trouble. There isnt any real competition - you can easily find your own 0.7 system and mine for weeks nonstop. The only slightly annoying thing is ore thieves if you do it in yulai/amarr but once you know them, you can easily counter them or just live with the rather small occasional loss.

I find it very far fetched to call it "pvp" because in theory any ore i mine, cant be mined by another player. The logical error is simply that there is waaaaaaaayyyyyy more ore to mine then there are actually players competing for - therefore no real competition about the ore or "pvp" IMHO.

NPC hunting isnt "strictly pvp" either, in fact the community itself made some carebear rules how to share the few very profitable (moon) spawns. Just like with ore, there are way to many NPC continuously respawning to create any kind of real competition over them. The only difference there is that different regions have different spawns and different loot drops and therefore (unlike ore), people _sometimes_ have to go to a specific region for NPC hunting. That results in pvp situations because basically all 0.0 space is claimed or conquered. However even then, most people dont actually fight but get for example a npc hunting pass.

But if you insist that everything is pvp, then im a rather good pvp'er cause im pretty rich and the reward and ultimate measurement for "pvping" (success) on the market, is ISK.

Originally by: Einheriar Ulrich
Second, i dont think, if you take into consideration, that this game is a MMORpg, that the empires will allow any players, to build and harness their precius ressources in their space i.g like moons and such.


I dont get what this game beeing a MMORpg has to do with empires not allowing players to build or harness their resources in their space. Then why are the empires letting people mine in their space? Also it is not like moons are a scarce resource and the empires need them for their own stations - quite to the contrary, nearly all are totally unused.

From a roleplaying aspect, it would actually make sense to me if a rich player with great standing to a empire is given the right to exploit a resource if they pay a good tax/share. Again if i compare that argument to reallife, it would mean only governments run oil companies, silver mines, diamond mines etc.

Sosona
Posted - 2004.10.12 20:24:00 - [226]
 

Originally by: Einheriar Ulrich
Their has to be some core element of risk in this game, without it it would be no challenge, thus boring.

What you want is playerowned HQ, situated in empire space, preferbly in 0.5 to 1.0 sec space, so you cannot be attacked or destroyed. That goes against this game is.

Their are plenty of 0.4 to 0.0 systems in empire space not settled, go build there, but take some risk.


If i as a single person build a POS in 0.4, i would expect it to be killed by whoever decides to do it "soon". How soon depends mostly about how quickly somebody stumbles across it and tells the right people. My only chance would be to leghump a alliance or corp to protect it and then i would be totally dependant on them.

POS are like NPC, 100% predictable. I expect small groups with something like 3 apocs in longrange setup (or 3 gankageddons supported with 2 remote repairing support cruisers) to "quickly" find a way to take down segments and then the tower of a POS.

There are too many people in this game who are just out to destroy stuff and some of them already posted in here.

The "risk" would be that somebody takes notice of my POS - from that moment on it is only a matter of time till its killed. So with a simple risk/reward judgement, i would say building a POS myself (in below 0.5) without larger backup is mostly just wasting time, effort and isk for nothing.

Originally by: Einheriar Ulrich
I can just imagine, everyone with the wallet for it, building a POS stucture in Pator, yulai or Amarr.


I dont think anybody would want that situation and likely most wouldnt want a POS in those systems.

What i mentioned in my first posting, was to have a few places each region (like 5 to 10) - have them auctioned to people with high standings toward the faction owning the region. I am sure the prices would be enormous - i probably couldnt even afford one Very Happy

I really dont see a argument against that if it is done right.

Originally by: Einheriar Ulrich
You dont need a POS structure in secure empire space, their are plenty of stations there allready.

POS is designed to help setle the frontier, not making empire space more crowded.


You are right. I dont technically _need_ POS in empirespace (given with the amount of restrictions people want to apply on them) and i even expect them to burn ISK and not make any. I would still want one.

Why? - For the fun of it - for the very rare new content which is introduced into eve and for waiting months for shiva for new content and likely not getting any for my playing style (the other thing i waited for was system scanning ...). Other new shiva content will just be the good-old castor throwback again for this char - you get several abilities on the market removed and some new skills you need to learn to get back at where you where.

If i would need another billion ISK - i know how to get that without any POS, but there is absolutely no content i can buy for it and thats why i stopped making more.

Originally by: Einheriar Ulrich
I am sorry you think PvP only has to do with actual combat, but everytime, you force someone away from the market, mining fields or get the best agents, thats PvP, someone is going to be the looser, get it nowCool


I may just slightly disagree with your specific "pvp" definition as i explained at the beginning of this posting, nothing serious Smile

Originally by: Einheriar Ulrich
Sorry if i offended you, it was not intended.


You didnt Smile

Chucky
HEAVEN'S DEATH DEALER'S
V.I.R.A.L.
Posted - 2004.10.12 20:48:00 - [227]
 

Originally by: Buggsi
Hey what happened to the Titans?


I bought them ALLTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted Evil

Marcus Aurelius
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2004.10.12 20:56:00 - [228]
 

Sosona, one question.

Did you actually already test POS and their defenses ?
Did you read what some of the players that did have said about them after testing them ?

DeFood
Gallente
UMEC
Posted - 2004.10.12 21:20:00 - [229]
 

Edited by: DeFood on 12/10/2004 21:41:16
Originally by: Marcus Aurelius
Sosona, one question.

Did you actually already test POS and their defenses ?
Did you read what some of the players that did have said about them after testing them ?



How naive exactly are you? This might sound a bit harsh, but how many times exactly has CCPs "uber protection" in empire space been proved less than effective? How many times have griefers discovered some combination of modules that can allow them to tank enough damage to destroy their target in areas CCP thought were protected? CCPs "perfect" protection have been taken down more than once, causing CCP to increase the uberness of sentries and concord everywhere.

Do you actually think a relativly small fleet of ships using EW modules cannot be made to take on POS defenses in perfect safety?

Do you actually think that, with the continuing introduction of ship classes, and tech 3 modules, that it will become even more possible to create a small fleet combo capable of outranging / outtanking POS defenses?





And, all those tech 3 modules we will be getting. Im sure they will be totall

Marcus Aurelius
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2004.10.12 21:40:00 - [230]
 

Originally by: DeFood
Originally by: Marcus Aurelius
Sosona, one question.

Did you actually already test POS and their defenses ?
Did you read what some of the players that did have said about them after testing them ?



How stupid exactly are you? This might sound a bit harsh, but how many times exactly has CCPs "uber protection" in empire space been proved less than effective? How many times have griefers discovered some combination of modules that can allow them to tank enough damage to destroy their target in areas CCP thought were protected? CCPs "perfect" protection have been taken down more than once, causing CCP to increase the uberness of sentries and concord everywhere.

Do you actually think a relativly small fleet of ships using EW modules cannot be made to take on POS defenses in perfect safety?

Do you actually think that, with the continuing introduction of ship classes, and tech 3 modules, that it will become even more possible to create a small fleet combo capable of outranging / outtanking POS defenses?





And, all those tech 3 modules we will be getting. Im sure they will be totall


Ah ok.

Well, I assume you have tested pos then yes ?
Onoes, you're talking our of your ass too !

I asked this to remind people to not whine about what they do not know.

POS modules cannot be EW-ed atm, defenders are absolutely safe, any attacker gets webbed and scrambled at 75km and if he stays at longer range can get dampened so he cant target the structures anymore. On top of that, 2-3 apocs with tachs are not going to get past a POS shield very fast when under fire.

Thus, untill indeed some uber griefer gets the magic inkling there will be no POS griefing in 0.4 as easy as described by Sosona.

That was my point.

Sosona
Posted - 2004.10.12 21:49:00 - [231]
 

Originally by: Marcus Aurelius
Sosona, one question.

Did you actually already test POS and their defenses ?


Nope, i mentioned in one posting that i didnt yet test POS on sisi.

Originally by: Marcus Aurelius
Did you read what some of the players that did have said about them after testing them ?


I have read every posting in this thread. I assume you mean the fact that not every single passing by person can kill a defended POS.

What people totally seem to forget or deny are groups like zombie inc., teddybears, armoured assassins, alliances, mercenaries and two important facts.

a) POS are 100% predictable and they need/eat consumables for stuff like missiles for example (AFAIK).

That means if a missile tower annoys me, i can either use a tanked BS to sit it out till the missiles are gone or i can use 3-4 medium smartbombs nonstop to kill any incoming missile - same goes for ECM. People will "soon" find easy setups to take on common POS structures. Dont forget that with stuff like support cruisers and ships with insane resistances to one or two specific damage types, the chance is very good to find a way to counter damage without losing anything but time while the resources of the POS arent unlimited like concord or NPC have. With the right setup you can tank against any NPC spawn (beside some commanders maybe) with a single apoc. I expect with some experience that small groups of 3+ people can crack nearly any POS as long as there arent defenders.

2) Now lets assume for a moment that CCP actually makes POS so strong that a smaller group of 5 to 8 experienced people cant take down a POS of a single person.

If that would be the case, i assume a lot people would whine on the forums how it isnt realistic/fair/risky enough etc. etc. Therefore even in the incredibly small chance that a undefended POS from a single person would actually survive any attack of such a group, i would expect that quickly to be changed/nerfed after some proper forum-whinage.

A rather famous climber once was asked what made him go on the highest hill and he replied "Because it was there". It will be the same with POS and there are a lot people in eve who just run around and destroy stuff. Something with a reputation of beeing indestructable, will just drag larger groups to it.

Oh and if i ever picked up trading again (to fund a POS), i am sure it wouldnt take long for some trader/corp to hire a mercenary corp to kill my POS because i ruined their marketshare Wink Not to mention ofc that after this thread, several people would probably use location agents to find out where my POS is in shiva "just because" Wink

Bohr
Posted - 2004.10.12 22:06:00 - [232]
 

Originally by: Buggsi
I just resubscribed yesterday and just found out that POS are only for 0.0-0.1 space.

I resubscribed, looked foward to joining a mining corp in like 0.4-0.7 space where with a refinery, and moon miner, shield, missle and gun POS to defend against NPC's. Now I find out its only for 0.0-0.1 space. Cant say im too excited about it.

I only have 2,000,000 experience points, 8,000,000 ISK in the bank, a thorax (almost to battleship too) and Iteron V. Even then, I cant afford to go waltzing through 0.0 space, I can barely defend myself in 0.5 space against NPC's.

Im not a carebear by choice, but by necessity.



Join a 0.0 corp. Lots of fun, exitement, and many ways of making isk to compliment whatever losses may occur :)

Buggsi
Posted - 2004.10.12 23:16:00 - [233]
 

PvP is great and all, but PvP just for the purpose of ganking is kind of silly. Wouldnt it be better to have wars so you can gain territory? And how can you gain territory if the only territory to gain is only available in 0.0 space?

Moneta
Evolution
Posted - 2004.10.12 23:27:00 - [234]
 

Originally by: Buggsi
PvP is great and all, but PvP just for the purpose of ganking is kind of silly. Wouldnt it be better to have wars so you can gain territory? And how can you gain territory if the only territory to gain is only available in 0.0 space?


Exactly, the only terrotory to gain is in 0.0 space.
How could it not be ? The territory in 0.1+ is already claimed by empires and secured by concord and sentries. It's what is called the starting area for this MMO. Problem being too little poeple actually venture out of it Very Happy

The intention is to have POS make the claiming and holding of territory in the vast areas of 0.0 space availiabel entail more then just camping the entries and blowing up your strangth with l33t names and uber posts. Controlling space will not be as easy as it was, but it will be more real then it is now.

90% of the fear for venturing into 0.0 is based on the choke systems and on reputation of alliances. I've been trying to tell people here for months already that the actual risk is much lower if you keep your head down. Most combat in 0.0 is between non-neutrals, mostly alliances and dedicated pvp corporations. The gate-ganking and senseless podding you guys fear so much is only done at the fringes of empire space by some of the pirate corps that can't or won't getinto a real fight. But that's a minority really.

I've been flying in and out of every part of 0.0 for nearly a year now without EVER getting killed along the way. When I get killed its because I chose to engage in pvp, not because i was forced to.

Really, it's the small amounts of naysaying scared negativists that are telling you alot of crap about what 0.0 space is like.
And with POS it could all get even alot easier for casual neutrals in 0.0

drunkenmaster
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2004.10.12 23:34:00 - [235]
 

well, this conversation has gone nowhere at all, really.

'non risk takers' think that they are going to get these great, sprawling structures, loaded up with defenses, giving them a hangar, a fitting station, maybe a refinery.

They already exist. And are far more efficient, unbreakable, and for the most part, free to use.

Just because you can't put your name on them, doesn't mean you should damage the balance of the game.

I just don't understand the mentality of people who will try to break the subtle balance that holds the universe together just to make a crippled structure with 'bill & joe's great station' written on it.

I'm sure they will be the same people that complain that insurance doesn't cover the cost of their titan when they buy one, and that it is still too expensive. And they will wonder why they get ganked out of it while travelling solo.

Some things in this game aren't designed to be just toys to own.

I just hope the devs stick to their guns about only being able to produce/research tech III in 0.0 space.

If they do, then people may decide that some things *are* actually worth the risk.

although in certain people's cases I never expect that to happen. Some people just get too used to having godmodes, and being able to stroll right through to the endgame without actually risking any loss. I can't see that as being anything other than a hollow 'victory'

Kel Shek
Posted - 2004.10.13 00:13:00 - [236]
 

Sosona... your REALLY showing having not tested it

Quote:
That means if a missile tower annoys me, i can either use a tanked BS to sit it out till the missiles are gone or i can use 3-4 medium smartbombs nonstop to kill any incoming missile - same goes for ECM.
you can have many missiles. now maybe I'm underestimating how much tanking capacity is there... but if what your attacking has 1M HP, and can potentially be shooting half a dozen or more cruise missiles, half a dozen or more (half a dozen being an arbitrary "sounds like a reasonable amount" number) torps, probably at least as many turrets of various sizes(once everything is fully operational) be webbing, sensor dampening, and ECM'ing... ALL AT ONCE.... that could take a pretty sizeable force to be able to knock over without having some notable losses.

Quote:
With the right setup you can tank against any NPC spawn (beside some commanders maybe) with a single apoc. I expect with some experience that small groups of 3+ people can ***** nearly any POS as long as there arent defenders.
if they are REALLY good, and very patient, and the POS was not put up by someone with a few billion to burn (ie: packing all turrets with appropriate ammos, and putting up a zillion and twelve turrets) then maybe it could be taken down by a small handful of expert people. but I wouldn't be sure. and I doubt it'd be easy or cheap for them either. ie: there would have to be a good reason for them to bother.

Quote:
The gate-ganking and senseless podding you guys fear so much is only done at the fringes of empire space by some of the pirate corps that can't or won't getinto a real fight. But that's a minority really.

lol, yeah... I have had more problems, and been forced out of trying to mine in Pelille(0.2) by pirates, more than I have had problems in, or getting in/out of PF-346.(chokepoint 0.0 system 1 jump from .5)


DarkMatter
Sintered Sanity
Posted - 2004.10.13 00:33:00 - [237]
 

Quote:
Some things in this game aren't designed to be just toys to own.


Dude, this is a ****ing game, it's supposed to be entertainment, you know, fun?

Some of you ppl act like allowing players to actually have fun instead of slaving over this ****ing MMO is a crime or something.

God Dammit it's supposed to be FUN!

A lot of you want to turn this game in to some type of masacistic online torture game for those of us who don't play the game exactly like you. **** off!

Spruance
Caldari
Cygnus Advanced Technologies
Posted - 2004.10.13 00:53:00 - [238]
 

DarkMatter please relax it isn't that bad. Certainly there is a population of "griefers" out there who will fly around and blast you in unsecure space. Still there is alot of unsecure space right in the empires available for POS. I'm hoping to get together with some other smaller industrial corps and build one together. We're already stockpiling basic ores for the day this becomes reality.

I think the "Commerce Alliances" will be big after Shiva just as the 0.0 alliances are now. From looking at the Shiva test server it seems alot of the content is geared toward the market including many new market skills to buy and sell. Economic alliances will becomre more relevant then and it isn't so much how much money you have as how, when and where you use it.

DarkMatter this is a game and it is supposed to be entertainment. But every game has rules and this one apparently will have the rule that POS are to be in 0.4 and below only. We'll have to adapt our playing style around that. Considering we can put up defense shields and laser towers to defend a POS I think we have a chance even as mining and industrial carebear types.

Reginald Spruance III
CEO
Libertas Enterprises

DarkMatter
Sintered Sanity
Posted - 2004.10.13 01:12:00 - [239]
 

I've been playing for 15 months now, and it seems as though the most exciting content to date is not gonna be accessible for me, I'm ****ed...

I've seen so much added to this game for PvP'ers, and very little for me, for 15 months. Now I finally get it, and I have to put my ass out there so the ******* PK'ers get a chance at me if I want to enjoy this new content. It's almost like it's indirect content added for PvP'ers, more stuff to blow up, more opportunities to grief the industrialists...

I'm not looking to make risk free billions, never have been looking for that. I just want to feel part of the game, and have fun a few hours a week, and not have to spend all my playing time picking my ass back up off the carpet because I got ganked yet again, that gets real ****ing old...


Sally
Caldari
Posted - 2004.10.13 01:19:00 - [240]
 

Chill:

<Oveur> Starbases (POS) are for the more advanced player and will get available to younger corps when we allow them in higher security levels (Up to 0.8 planned)


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