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DarkMatter
Sintered Sanity
Posted - 2004.10.12 01:38:00 - [181]
 

Edited by: DarkMatter on 12/10/2004 01:41:01
All very nice ideas Slithereen. but you will be labeled a carebear, and told to go play some other game any minute now...

Give it time, I'm sure Avon (why he named himself after a perfume company, lol I'll never know) or TheMiner (sure is a ghey name for such a badazz 0.0 rat hunter) will be here to flame you soon...

Buggsi
Posted - 2004.10.12 01:45:00 - [182]
 

Hey

What kind of minerals will a moon produce?

Slithereen
Amarr
Posted - 2004.10.12 01:50:00 - [183]
 



They can label me whatever, but I'm best described as having more political thinking. And besides, my family is into real estate so we understand what urban zoning does as well as the sheer complexities of real estate issues.

When you bring the "real estate" factor into this game (frankly I never wanted it in the first place for the background reasons above), you will add a fundamental dimension of complexity to the game you don't really need to.

You have to balance:

Risk-reward
Effort-reward
Investment-reward

As well as consequences with to the user base and the civil development of star systems.

There are many unforeseen consequences. One, is that it can turn 0.0 frontier space into a suburban environment. Where is the sense of wonder in that? When I played Homeworld I loved that sense of desolation. It was in EVE when it started. It's pretty gone now and whatever left of that will be removed when frontiers are "civilized".


Buggsi
Posted - 2004.10.12 02:04:00 - [184]
 

Ice products? It sounds like these are minerals that arent used in the manufacturing of all items right now. So its going to be an economy completely seperate from the one we got now. So basically the supply/price of Omber will have nothing to do with the supply/price of helium3.



:(

DarkMatter
Sintered Sanity
Posted - 2004.10.12 02:07:00 - [185]
 

Quote:
There are many unforeseen consequences. One, is that it can turn 0.0 frontier space into a suburban environment. Where is the sense of wonder in that? When I played Homeworld I loved that sense of desolation. It was in EVE when it started. It's pretty gone now and whatever left of that will be removed when frontiers are "civilized".


Yeah, Homeworld brought that feeling to me too... You felt so cut off, and the eriee music just added to that feeling.

CCP is trying their hearts out to get more ppl to fly in more dangerous areas so PK'ers have more things to blow up, that seems to be the bottom line here.

Some DEV's seem to have it in their head that this is what they envisioned, and dammit, this is what they will morph the gsme into one way or another to realize that vision, even if it is a pipe dream...

I really like your ideas on the Empire POS's, almost makes too much sense, so you can bet for sure CCP won't implement anything remotely close to that...

Einheriar Ulrich
Minmatar
Vengeance of the Fallen
Syndicate.
Posted - 2004.10.12 02:37:00 - [186]
 

Edited by: Einheriar Ulrich on 12/10/2004 03:01:26
Edited by: Einheriar Ulrich on 12/10/2004 02:58:54
Originally by: Carebear Barney
Edited by: Carebear Barney on 09/10/2004 22:59:32
I believe that we need to hear a confirmation from CCP. I'm in the same boat as you.. and I have less skills points then you.

I would like CCP should tell us the truth of the matter now, so we can make the decision whether or not we should cancel our account.

I think POS should be available to anyone new or old in the game and buildable in all security systems. I came into the game wanting to have a small mining corp. My character isn't a fighter, but a miner. I want to run a corp of ppl who specialize in mining. I don't want to be forced into having a corp that looks like everyone elses corp with fighters, etc.

There are many ppl who play this game in a casual and social way, not PvP.. remember that please.. and will simply quit if POS are only for certain ppl in the game. I'd support doing the same.

CCP will certainly injure their business income profits by turning away thousands of ppl who are attracted to the POS but turned off by not being able to have one.




From a game point of view "The old settled npc corps and empire controlled fractions" would not let your build POS in their space.

second, this is a PvP game, everything in this game is PvP, from agressive market trade, to forcing others to mine i lesser systems, because you hold the best, or have allready mined it, or because your agent is better that the other competitor trying to do agent missions, face it, EVE is a PvP game, its player vs player. in everything from mining to combat.

If your want Pve, go play another game, if you want to be left alone and do everything yourself,play a singleplayer game.

POS, shouldnt be build in secure space, for game mechanic reasons. If you are protected under the empires, how can i conquer or destroy your POSQuestion

EVE is also about team effort, with POS you can truely begin to settle the deep space frontier, and carve your own space, but remember out in deepspace, the one with the best agressive force usually wins, so you should not be able to build POS, if you cannot defend it.

POS is not for a singleman corp or a small corp, it takes tremendeous ammounts of isk to run, its hard to defend against a capble force, and therefore its up to the big cooperations to build and defend them, but no one hinders you in building them anyway, but be prepared to loose what you cannot defendWink

For those who says " i do not have enough skillpoints, etc ect....

When i first ventured into deep 0.0 space, i flew a frigate and a hauler, ninja mined ark alone, later i joined a corp helped start an alliance, and i was only in a cruiser.

This game isnt easy, its hard and difficult on many levels, thats why EVE is still thrilling to me after 1.5 years or more.

Join a big cooperation, battle the frontier, survive, make a name for yourself, or stay in empire, learn how to corner the market, either way , one day, someone will take notice of you, and you may find enemies or friends and allies.

EVE is PvP. or at least it tries to be, hopefully, when shiva hits, it will return to its more agressive nature.

Everyhing is possible in EVE, but its not easy to get to your goal, and thats the way it should be.





DarkMatter
Sintered Sanity
Posted - 2004.10.12 02:45:00 - [187]
 

Quote:
POS, shouldnt be build in secure space, for game mechanin reasons. If oyur protected under the empires, how can i conquer or destroy your POS


And why do you feel it is your right to destroy his POS?

Einheriar Ulrich
Minmatar
Vengeance of the Fallen
Syndicate.
Posted - 2004.10.12 02:54:00 - [188]
 

Edited by: Einheriar Ulrich on 12/10/2004 03:00:05
Originally by: DarkMatter
Quote:
POS, shouldnt be build in secure space, for game mechanin reasons. If oyur protected under the empires, how can i conquer or destroy your POS


And why do you feel it is your right to destroy his POS?


Because, read my post carefully, and read the original box in which this game came, EVE is a PvP game, everything in tis game is PvP.

Those stations means alot of isk, if i can somehow get hold of that isk i will. It has nothing to do with griefing or destroying others experience of this game, its how its meant to be played, simple as that.

Kel Shek
Posted - 2004.10.12 02:54:00 - [189]
 

Quote:
Final point: a reasonably well defended base cannot be taken down by random gankers. If someone wanted to take your base they'd need to bring a fleet. Then you should be prepared to counter that fleet with one of your own..
thats part of what I'm saying exactly, I completely agree, Smile though I might even go as far as to merely say a "modestly" defended/laid out base would be safe from random passerbys.

only thing I'd add to that, is "or evacuate and abandon it" the trick I'd have in mind on that, is that you don't draw enough attention, make enough of a nuisance of yourself... whatever, as to make it worth their time to gather a fleet and go to where you are to take it down. unless the POS is alot more expensive than I expect... if you can take out at least a couple BS's of the attacking fleet... unless theres a REAL reason for them to be attacking you, it wouldn't be worth it.

Faction standing effecting where you can build... heck I wouldn't be against limiting .1-.4 according to standing, but I wouldn't expect it.... but if theres .5+, I think you should have to have high standing to build it.

as far as I've gathered, moons will "produce" essentially tech 2 parts, or components used in the production of tech 2 parts.

the FUEL for the stations come from ice mining... which is entirely new.


Slithereen
Amarr
Posted - 2004.10.12 03:14:00 - [190]
 

Edited by: Slithereen on 12/10/2004 03:16:49

Quote:
POS, shouldnt be build in secure space, for game mechanic reasons. If you are protected under the empires, how can i conquer or destroy your POS


Easy.

Have a legal war of alliances even within empire space. Let's take a potential hypothetical example of the Alliance of Amarrian Slavers vs. the Alliance of Minmatar Terrorists.

Their wars are totally in-Empire, and yet they could conduct a legal massive force operation to have a POS within empire space destroyed, right up to 1.0.

POS is only protected against non-legal attacks, not against legal wars.


Einheriar Ulrich
Minmatar
Vengeance of the Fallen
Syndicate.
Posted - 2004.10.12 03:26:00 - [191]
 

Edited by: Einheriar Ulrich on 12/10/2004 03:31:13
Originally by: Slithereen
Edited by: Slithereen on 12/10/2004 03:16:49

Quote:
POS, shouldnt be build in secure space, for game mechanic reasons. If you are protected under the empires, how can i conquer or destroy your POS


Easy.

Have a legal war of alliances even within empire space. Let's take a potential hypothetical example of the Alliance of Amarrian Slavers vs. the Alliance of Minmatar Terrorists.

Their wars are totally in-Empire, and yet they could conduct a legal massive force operation to have a POS within empire space destroyed, right up to 1.0.

POS is only protected against non-legal attacks, not against legal wars.




You know there is something like alts, in this game,[)

This is not about war, but about the old empires, if your RP'ing in this game, why would they allow anyone, to settle their space, and control their space.

If you want a HQ, their is plenty of stations, in less travelled areas of empire where you can locate yourself.

This game, have to an element of risk, no risk no reward.

Remember when Shiva hits, if alliance corp A, declares war on empire corp b, the whole alliance of corp A, will be able to attack, no pos would be left standing in empire.

POS is made for those who wants to carve their own scpace, not because you find it convenient or cool, to have your own station.

Why would you, empire is cluttered with stations, who cannot be destroyed, and best of all you dont pay maintenence on themWink.

I can see that the notable rp corps im empire would like to have their own HQ, i was once CEO of Oracle, belive me I know the conflict.Wink

Their is plenty of space in the empires, that range from 0.0 to 0.4, here you shuld be able to build, your pos, its away from concord an navy controls, and have an element of risk.

What im against, is those who want to build their POS in pator Amarr or Yulai,,

In order to get the highest reward, you should accept the consequence of ultimate defeatYARRRR!!

This is not because, i think, that some people should be derived from experiences in this game. But once in a while someone comes along, and states, that players should be able to play EVE in a risk free inviroment. So not to repeat myself, THIS IS a PvP GAME.

I do apologize for the capsVery Happy

Slithereen
Amarr
Posted - 2004.10.12 03:28:00 - [192]
 



One more thing I like to add.

Removing POS out of empire space does not help the cause of PvP. Rather the opposite---it removes an important element for PvP among potential legal alliance and corporation wars within Empire space. Not all PvP is 0.0 space confined.


DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
Posted - 2004.10.12 03:42:00 - [193]
 

Im not going to waste breath responding to all the carebears in this thread, they won't understand logic and whats better for the game because they want to play with starbases without risking themselves.


Simply put, starbases are high end content. High end isn't how much skillpoints you have, it isn't how much experience you have, it isn't how much money or reputation you have. Nor is it how big your fleet is, and how many battleships you've killed in the last week. High end gameplay is a mindset. Those people who tackle the biggest challenges should be rewarded with the biggest toys.

Whether you succeed or fail in the game of risk doesn't matter. At the end of the day you tried, and you learned. Go out there, stake your claim to some resources, and your right to harvest them. Find something you really like thats already claimed? Contest that claim. The day CCP puts everyone on an equal playing field no matter now much willpower, desire and motivation they have is the day I stop playing EVE. Nuff said.

I'll be out there, and I'll be ready. Will you?

Slithereen
Amarr
Posted - 2004.10.12 03:42:00 - [194]
 

Edited by: Slithereen on 12/10/2004 03:45:33
Quote:

You know there is something like alts, in tis game,[)



You know, you really should not have alts in this game as that is artificial and damages the immersion of the game. It is an out of character artificiality.

Quote:

This is not about war, but about the old empires, if your RP'ing in this game would allow anyone, to settle their space, and control their space.

If you want a HQ their is plenty of stations, in less travelled areas of empire where you can locate yourself.

This game, have to an element of risk, no risk no reward.

Remember when Shiva hits, if alliance corp A, declares war on empire corp b, the whole alliance of corp A, will be able to attack, no pos would be left stainding in empire.

POS is made for those who wants to carve their own scpace, not because you find it convenient or cool, to have your own station.


Then why do Caldari, Minmatar, Gallente and Amarr stations everywhere with all four empires.

Because stations are not Empire property per se, but corporate property. That's why Quafe and Ishukone stations are all around.

This game is really built around CORPORATE WARS. Repeat again, C-O-R-P-O-R-A-T-E WARS. And it does not make a difference if the station is made in 1.0 space or 0.0 space. If it is involved in a corporate war, it is a legal target.

Quote:

Why would you, empire is cluttered with stations, who cannot be destroyed, and best of all you dont pay maintenence on them.


Empire stations should and can be destroyed under legal corporate wars.

Quote:

I can see that the noteble rp corps im empire would like to have their own HQ, i was once CEO of Oracle, i know the conflict.


Then you know how much great value it is for the game to have role playing wars than simple gang and thug wars over "neighborhood".

Quote:

Their is plenty of space im the empires, that range from 0.0 to 0.4, here you shuld be able to build, your pos, its away from concord an navy controls, and have an element of risk.


No problem with that.

Quote:

What im against, is those who want to build their POS in pator Amarr or Yulai,,


Why is that a problem?

Yulai and Amarr, as well as in empire systems like Kisogo, have some of the highest death rates in any system. Just check the map of deaths everyday. This means a lot of private corporate wars do go on, and one of the best places to find a fight is in a place with lots of traffic. If you happen to be in a corporate war like you once did, a place like Yulai, Amarr or Pator is often a lot more dangerous than 0.0 space.

In a legal corporate-alliance war, even private POS in Amarr or Yulai would be fair game.

Quote:

In order to get the highest reward, you shoudl accept the consequence of ultimate defeat

This is not because, i tink, that some people should be derived from experiences in this game. But once in a while someone comes along, and states, that players shoudl be able to play EVE in a risk free inviroment. So not to repeat myself, THIS IS a PvP GAME.


And what you are advocating is to remove a PvP element for those who are involved with PvP within empires.


Spruance
Caldari
Cygnus Advanced Technologies
Posted - 2004.10.12 03:53:00 - [195]
 

Quote:
"I can see that the notable rp corps im empire would like to have their own HQ, i was once CEO of Oracle, belive me I know the conflict.
Their is plenty of space in the empires, that range from 0.0 to 0.4, here you shuld be able to build, your pos, its away from concord an navy controls, and have an element of risk."


Considering we can put up defense towers and shield generators around the POS I see no reason to dot secure empire space with them. I was once of the put them everywhere camp but Ive changed my opinion reading this thread. There are many .4 systems in empire space I mine in many of them already. Plenty of places to put a POS along with a defense system.

I'm CEO of a small corp. We could find some other manufacturing allies and build a POS together. With the automated defenses we dont need to be there 24/7. The PK Gankers wont be able to stumble into us and hurt us. In fact it seems from the posts only a well organized fleet action will be able to destroy a POS. I can live with that.

Reginald Spruance III
CEO
Libertas Enterprises

DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
Posted - 2004.10.12 04:00:00 - [196]
 

What I can't quite comprehend, is say high sec starbases were allowed, and you would get your corporate warfare pvp "wish", what motive would a corporation have for deploying a base in the first place?

I mean, why would any corp deploy one if there was no profit involved. Profit and high sec don't add up.. for every 10 corporations wanting to cause you harm, maybe one will declare war and try to. Thousands of corporations scattered around empire that aren't involved in any politics translates to thousands of corporations making a profit undisturbed, and now with greater researching and production ability equals even more inflation.

Slithereen
Amarr
Posted - 2004.10.12 04:09:00 - [197]
 

Edited by: Slithereen on 12/10/2004 04:14:47
Edited by: Slithereen on 12/10/2004 04:12:10
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
What I can't quite comprehend, is say high sec starbases were allowed, and you would get your corporate warfare pvp "wish", what motive would a corporation have for deploying a base in the first place?


If there is no motive, then why build it? That answers the question in the first place.

Quote:

I mean, why would any corp deploy one if there was no profit involved. Profit and high sec don't add up.. for every 10 corporations wanting to cause you harm, maybe one will declare war and try to. Thousands of corporations scattered around empire that aren't involved in any politics translates to thousands of corporations making a profit undisturbed, and now with greater researching and production ability equals even more inflation.


Empire POS should have a lot of restrictions. Limited number per moon and per system.
Taxes.
No mining and refining.
High Faction rating requirement. Build a POS in a 0.7 system? Then you need a faction rating 7 and above.

No payee taxes and maintenance, loss of faction rating, empire shuts you down for delinquency and non reg compliance---like here on Earth. That is no risk to you?

These alone would make sure that not every ****, Harry and Sally corporation can build a station.

Empire POS should be like a downtown office building. Lots of regs to overcome, expensive to build, lots of favoritism and reputation with the mayor and the local politicians, expensive rent.

Low risk? No. It's high risk. High financial risk. This is for the Donald Trumps of the game.

of course, with the equally high financial risk, you can get high investment return as well.


Dethra
Minmatar
Infusion.
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2004.10.12 05:00:00 - [198]
 

Didn't read all 196 posts.. actually posted this in another location, where a topic got hi-jacked. Anyway:

If you play in 0.0 space, you don't have the security of concord. The risks are greater. The pay-out (for virtually anything) is greater.

If you play in 0.1 to 0.4 space, you have some security if concord; however some things can still be attacked. The pay-out is still greater than 0.5 to 0.7, yet less secure. On the other hand, it's lower than 0.0 for pay-out, but more secure.

If you play in 0.5-0.7 you have total security - except from the loop hole finders like ore thieves - but you have far less profit than if you were to play in 0.0.

Advantages: 0.0 = far greater pay out possibilities for virtually anything.
Disadvantages: 0.0 = far greater risk, less security, and less stations. This means more jumps to make, less research slots, less agents, less factory slots.

Advantages: 0.5-0.7 = far more stations
Disadvantages: 0.5-0.7 = much less pay out possibilities for virtually anything.

Ok, on with the real stuff. That was just a bunch of information given in my rambling repetitive way.

POS (Player-Owned-Structures) have these purposes:
1) they are a base of operations
2) this is a sign of who controls the area
3) they can be used in place of stations if none are nearby
4) refer to 1/2. they can be used in wars to dictate number 2.

So, this would mean they are best used where there are a lack of stations, and where there needs ot be an object to substitute a station, and to designate who controls what area.

This means they are ideal for 0.0, and to a lesser extend 0.1 to 0.4.

They are useless in 0.5 to 0.7. Sure, you can say, "I have my own POS and it's awesome!" and feel proud of it; I'm not getting mad at you, but that could cause it's own problems down the road.

What I'm saying is there is nothing to control in 0.5-0.7, and not only that, but everything a POS can do, a station can do better, EXCEPT for manufacturing illegal goods, which most likely needs to be outside empire space, as per the ERE.. Empire regulations Extension or something like that that forbids illegal goods to be made in empire space.

Now, you say then why all the planets and such? In real life, why do we build space stations? For a way to get into space cheaply from a planet right? Go to the station in a shuttle, then board a larger ship there. Well, in Eve it's the same way. People live on those planets, and have space stations orbitting them. Also, wouldn't it seem really wierd to have an empty solar system? No planets..no moons. This also means no asteroid belts. So, a useless system, no?

Another reason for no 0.5-0.7 would be because they are core empire worlds, and you, as the empire, or faction, would want some corp setting up a base.. it could be a military operations.

OK, so this contradicts setting up bases in 0.1-0.4 empire/faction controlled regions.. There are less empire/faction bases in these systems, and less police force/more piracy, so it could be deemed excusable to set up a base here.

Just my 3 ISK (well, inflation..2 ISK doesn't cut it anymoreRazz)

DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
Posted - 2004.10.12 05:09:00 - [199]
 

Originally by: Slithereen
Edited by: Slithereen on 12/10/2004 04:14:47
Edited by: Slithereen on 12/10/2004 04:12:10
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
What I can't quite comprehend, is say high sec starbases were allowed, and you would get your corporate warfare pvp "wish", what motive would a corporation have for deploying a base in the first place?


If there is no motive, then why build it? That answers the question in the first place.

Quote:

I mean, why would any corp deploy one if there was no profit involved. Profit and high sec don't add up.. for every 10 corporations wanting to cause you harm, maybe one will declare war and try to. Thousands of corporations scattered around empire that aren't involved in any politics translates to thousands of corporations making a profit undisturbed, and now with greater researching and production ability equals even more inflation.


Empire POS should have a lot of restrictions. Limited number per moon and per system.
Taxes.
No mining and refining.
High Faction rating requirement. Build a POS in a 0.7 system? Then you need a faction rating 7 and above.

No payee taxes and maintenance, loss of faction rating, empire shuts you down for delinquency and non reg compliance---like here on Earth. That is no risk to you?

These alone would make sure that not every ****, Harry and Sally corporation can build a station.

Empire POS should be like a downtown office building. Lots of regs to overcome, expensive to build, lots of favoritism and reputation with the mayor and the local politicians, expensive rent.

Low risk? No. It's high risk. High financial risk. This is for the Donald Trumps of the game.

of course, with the equally high financial risk, you can get high investment return as well.




What you're saying still results in profit, only at the expensive of more effort in terms of gaining said faction rating. In the end you'd be pulling a profit with moon mining and your justification is financial risk. ROFL.

What financial risk? Having to build everything? The only form of risk in this game is financial risk assuming you at least keep your clone up to date. So by that definition I could say I'm taking a financial risk by building in 0.0 space. What you just described will only make it annoying to place a structure, but once a corp has say a high faction rating with Amarr, what stops them from putting a base in every system in Domain? At the end it will result in profit.. all at marginal risk.

Slithereen
Amarr
Posted - 2004.10.12 05:26:00 - [200]
 

Edited by: Slithereen on 12/10/2004 05:28:43
Quote:

What you're saying still results in profit, only at the expensive of more effort in terms of gaining said faction rating. In the end you'd be pulling a profit with moon mining and your justification is financial risk. ROFL.


Well, didn't you read what I said? I said no mining with POS at 0.5 and above as per my proposal.

Quote:

What financial risk? Having to build everything? The only form of risk in this game is financial risk assuming you at least keep your clone up to date. So by that definition I could say I'm taking a financial risk by building in 0.0 space.


Boy, you really don't know the real estate business do you.

There is something called an overhead and taxes incurred with the property. You own it, you pay it. Ths risk is that you have to make enough money to cover it. And not all business is guaranteed, like those empty office buildings that abounded in Houston, Texas.

Quote:

What you just described will only make it annoying to place a structure, but once a corp has say a high faction rating with Amarr, what stops them from putting a base in every system in Domain? At the end it will result in profit.. all at marginal risk.


It's called having enough money to actually do it. Just because you can possibly do it does not mean you will do it at all. Having plenty of stations does not guarantee a profit, especially if mining is removed as in my proposal. Rather, you can have an overhead that is too high to be overcome by your cash flow.

It does not strike me you understand capitalism at all.



DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
Posted - 2004.10.12 05:54:00 - [201]
 

You don't know what you're talking about. I suggest you test out deployables because its quite clear you're playing the game that only exists in your head instead of the one that its being constructed around you.

Where is this profit coming from if there is no moon mining, huh? You need moon materials to keep a structure running smart guy. The profit that comes out of these bases is dependent on the quality and amount of materials that can be harvested from the moon by the moon harvester.

The only upkeep that bases have is the amount of consumables required to keep it running. Introducing a tax will only make that overhead larger, but if you find a moon that is profitable enough to overcome the tax and the upkeep costs then you're making a solid profit. Now heres the part where I think you don't understand: you're assuming people won't know the profit levels before they build the base.

You will be able to scan for the quality of moons and decide whether to build a base or not. No guessing and games of chance. Naturally all the crappy moons won't get touched because you'd need to constantly feed them consumables to keep it online, all the good moons will be picked up right away. So where is the financial risk? You're comparing it to office space and real estate, but in this case the real life contractor would know exactly how much he would make in a given location before building anything there.

Seriously, its not capitalism I don't understand, its your inane reasoning to even have POS in empire in the first place, as well as your justification and means for making them profitable.

Severus Trajan
Amarr
Tok'Ra Inc
Posted - 2004.10.12 06:08:00 - [202]
 

Originally by: Wharchild
So now you place them in systems that may not have a superb moon, but rich ore belts or simply for safety.

I'm seeing less risk, more reward. Zero-sec space becomes the suburbs and empire space the decaying inner city. If you're accepted by the neighborhood association, you get to enjoy all the benefits placed in zero-sec under the guise of "risk v. reward", but in security only somewhat less (due to lack of gate guns) than low-sec empire space. And in one sense, it offers more protection: against a war target, I suspect your guns will still protect you when an empire gun wouldn't. And the only real restriction I'm aware of on how large and safe an alliance can make their empire is the workforce required to keep their POS supplied with consumables. Where's the frontier now?


This is an excellent point by Wharchild.

S'Daria
Posted - 2004.10.12 06:26:00 - [203]
 

Dev chat:
Originally by: "EVE Dev Chat"
Hakera> YaRisse> Will it be possible to setup Player Owned Stations within 0.1-0.4 Regions?

Oveur> We had this discussion just today, and 0.1-0.4 is a 95% yes

Oveur> if we can sort out the rest of the quirks associated with it, then it's in, cause we wan't to

Oveur> and at this point in time, I wouldn't exclude 0.5-0.7 in exchange for a hefty "rent", where you buy the "moon mining rights" from the sovereignty

Oveur> but these would be severely limited in what structures you could deploy there and a number of things would not be possible at all

Oveur> I'd say ... 25% on those, at least in november release



S'Daria
Posted - 2004.10.12 06:28:00 - [204]
 

From the above its unlikly the Dev will have POS in Shiva release for 0.5+ systems...if at all depending whether this discussion sways their decision.

Only 25% chance of POS in 0.5+ at Shiva release it looks like.


DeFood
Gallente
UMEC
Posted - 2004.10.12 07:43:00 - [205]
 

Originally by: DarkMatter
Quote:

CCP is trying their hearts out to get more ppl to fly in more dangerous areas so PK'ers have more things to blow up, that seems to be the bottom line here.

Some DEV's seem to have it in their head that this is what they envisioned, and dammit, this is what they will morph the gsme into one way or another to realize that vision, even if it is a pipe dream...


Indeed. There is a fine line at which the emphasis on risk (of PvP) vs reward ceases to be a game and instead it simply becomes bait to keep victims attention diverted from the fact that their role is now purely to exist for the amusement of griefers.

The concentration of "fun" rat spawns in 0.0, as well as the rare ores already makes the game feel more like its designed to lure traders into 0.0 for the amusement of gate gankers and alliances.

I have no real desire to continue playing a game that only lets me have the prety beads if I interact with what are essentially shcoolyard bullies frequently.

I think however that the argument is really irrelevent. We could build POS in 1.0 space and still be griefed. It doesnt matter *how* many ships are needed to blow up a POS. All it takes is one relativly large squad to make a career out of scouting for large POS, deccing war on the owning corp and attacking it.

Hell, for all my main chars dedicated carebearness, Id bully along with the rest of them. If anyone creates a corp dedicated to the systematic destruction of high sec POS, Id put an alt in it and help, just to prove how stupid an idea destroyable POS are.

Frankly, wether or not CCP allow them in high sec or not, the only corps with enough muscle and presence to guard them are the 0.0 alliances. If empire corps build POS they become herd animals. Their only safety lies in numbers - the vain hope that there are so many other empire corps that they will be ignored for now. Of course, in the fullness of time, destruction is inevitable. Even in 1.0

Etienne
Posted - 2004.10.12 09:12:00 - [206]
 

Originally by: DeFood
Frankly, wether or not CCP allow them in high sec or not, the only corps with enough muscle and presence to guard them are the 0.0 alliances. If empire corps build POS they become herd animals. Their only safety lies in numbers - the vain hope that there are so many other empire corps that they will be ignored for now. Of course, in the fullness of time, destruction is inevitable. Even in 1.0


"their only safety lies in numbers" - yes, for example smaller (non political) corps in empirespace which have a POS in the same area, could agree to a mutual defence pact :)

Hardin
Amarr
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2004.10.12 09:21:00 - [207]
 

Originally by: Joshua Calvert
Discorp, Avon, drunkenmaster, Hardin:

Are you guys completely against any form of player-owned structure in systems above 0.1 security status?

My opinion is that 0.5+ should be devoid of any player-owned structure but 0.2-0.4 should have limited functionality constrained by methods in my previous posts on this thread.

0.0 and 0.1 should have full access.


Nope I don't think any of us are...

I think we were objecting to high sec 'economic' PoS in 1.0 to 0.5

Discorporation
Amarr
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2004.10.12 09:30:00 - [208]
 

Originally by: Hardin
Originally by: Joshua Calvert
Discorp, Avon, drunkenmaster, Hardin:

Are you guys completely against any form of player-owned structure in systems above 0.1 security status?

My opinion is that 0.5+ should be devoid of any player-owned structure but 0.2-0.4 should have limited functionality constrained by methods in my previous posts on this thread.

0.0 and 0.1 should have full access.


Nope I don't think any of us are...

I think we were objecting to high sec 'economic' PoS in 1.0 to 0.5



Yup, totally cool with PoS in 0.4 and lower.

PoS are high-end toys. 0.5 and above do not and should not contain high end toys (due to the competely risk-free environment). That, and the fact that the only ones able to sustain large amounts of PoS in high-sec space are alliances and other 0.0 factions who shouldn't be building their stuff there in the first place.

Myko
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2004.10.12 09:32:00 - [209]
 

maybe CCP should create an 'outpost' POS item, basically its a hangar with a little bit of cargo space. It can be deployed in any system but only in orbit of a moon. It doesnt use any of the other POS modules and should cost 125M isk. It should have the shields of approx 3 battleships.

I dont think there should be any more lab or factory slots in empire, i dont think there should be any mining facilities in empire POS and i dont think they should have much defence.

If more lab slots were available all people would do is produce more BPC's, flood the market and destroy that profession. The knock-on effect would be that everyone productes their own stuff, and the manufacturing industry dies. The lack of a manufacturing industry would mean that buy orders for minerals would dissapear leading to huge problems for eve.

Im not trying to protect x revenue stream for me (agents in my case) im trying to protect the already skewed balance of risk/reward in eve.

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2004.10.12 09:35:00 - [210]
 

Edited by: Avon on 12/10/2004 09:38:38
Originally by: Myko
maybe CCP should create an 'outpost' POS item, basically its a hangar with a little bit of cargo space. It can be deployed in any system but only in orbit of a moon. It doesnt use any of the other POS modules and should cost 125M isk. It should have the shields of approx 3 battleships.



Already done, and you can buy it on the market now and call it whatever you want.

Default name is 'Giant Secure Container'

Ok, so its not a hangar, and it doesn't cost 125mil, but it is about as good as PoS should be in safe space.


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