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Galk
Gallente
Autumn Tactics
All the things she said
Posted - 2004.10.11 18:02:00 - [151]
 

Originally by: DarkMatter


Some players just want to keep others down, I guess that's human nature...


Not at all, you are only what you make of yourself.

However i have to say your constant branding of everybody thats against stations in 0.5 plus as being pk'ers i find dishearting.

Not everybody in fighting in 0.0 is a pk'er, not everybody is a pvp'er either.

My flat bottom view is that these things have a place to play within eve.... yes within the game.. it's not a person wim.

That place isn't in high spec space where there's 101 stations allready, its on the frontier....

Eve isn't a life simulator... building happy houses for the sake of it, it doesn't fit in...

Thats what basicaly all your asking for, just something you can call your own... i understand that... But Eve isn't the game for it....

Oosel
The Riot Formation
KRYSIS.
Posted - 2004.10.11 18:04:00 - [152]
 

i myself was hoping that you get pos in systems from 0.4 downwards....
these are deemed as unsecure as you wont attract concord for attacking in these zones but hopefully you would still have enough security from gate sentries etc to stand a chance of getting indies through to supply them and also this would allow mini alliances for those systems that have plenty of belts and moons but currently no stations....
be that as it may no matter how good an alliance you build there will always be an element that will want to destroy whatever it is that you create simply because thats the fun for them and you cant stop them from enjoying what they see as fun...
in any game you are going to get the im uber fear me mentality and its what keeps you on the edge of your seat as long as the wolves dont start to outnumber the sheep then eve has a long and prosperus future.....
im still a sheep but it hasnt stop me having fun and wont do so for a long time yet as i know the predation rate in eve is still sustainable

Carebear Barney
Caldari
Posted - 2004.10.11 18:17:00 - [153]
 

Edited by: Carebear Barney on 11/10/2004 18:20:19
All of you have very good points of views and great thinking of how these structures should or shouldn't be used.

For being a new player, I'm all for having these structures in 0.4 and below and also in 0.5+, but given the right balance and use for them.

On one hand you have the PK crowd who are vocal of having these structures only below 0.4 for their own purposes for a perpetual Open Ganking Season Pass. On the other hand there is the crowd of ppl who want a POS above 0.4 because they want to make more ISK with no added risks, and to be able to have a Lab Slot for once.

I really don't know which way is the best. Like I said, all of your comments and objections sound good.

I don't mind operating in 0.4 to 0.1, but for me to play this game and get ganked by someone just because they want to blow things up and have the power to do so is unfair. I don't mind PvP when it comes to an honest group, but there are hordes of ppl in this game who are skewed just to torture and grief others in the game for no reason. That's my only concern. Sure, I like PvP and it adds excitement to the game.. it's needed and valued by me.

If POS can be implemented so griefing is minimized or taken out completely then I'm OK with what CCP does.



DarkMatter
Sintered Sanity
Posted - 2004.10.11 18:29:00 - [154]
 

Edited by: DarkMatter on 11/10/2004 18:32:49
Quote:
you cant stop them from enjoying what they see as fun...


If CCP does not allow POS's in empire, then they are stopping a lot of players from having a kind of fun they were really looking forward to having.

I just don't agree with you guys, already players who live in 0.0 alliance space have so much more isk making potential out in 0.0 space, than I can ever have in 0.5 and above, and I accept this, and understand it. But not allowing POS's in empire space will be such a smack in the face for a lot of players.

I just don't see your arguments as being valid, all I see is that you just don't want players to have them who only have to worry about corp wars...

It's like saying to RL businesses, they are only allowed to build their companies facilities in the worst parts of the city, so that they get robbed & shot at by drive by shootings every so often to keep their profits in check. And they need gangs of street thugs to protect their facilities if they ever want to become profitable.

This is an absurd economic model CCP is building here.Rolling Eyes




Galk
Gallente
Autumn Tactics
All the things she said
Posted - 2004.10.11 18:50:00 - [155]
 

Darkmater a question, do you even bother reading what others say.

It's not about 'fun'

Ohh im no ganker, i don't exactly like blowing anyone up, but i do it because it's right to stand together with the decent folk that stand up up for themselfs.

I think you realy are in the wrong game mate.

Eve's got a set course, players have taken the lead in developing this game into much more than i think ccp ever imagined. The devs in turn have added and are building on that, constantly listening to ideas and watching what the players are doing.

We turn back now and ruin it by flooding the game with player stations and turning it into nothing more than a fun simulator, you will lose the true essence of what player stations are all about.

ill say it again....

Expanding the frontier.


DarkMatter
Sintered Sanity
Posted - 2004.10.11 18:56:00 - [156]
 

Quote:
ill say it again....

Expanding the frontier.


Go ahead and expand your damn frontier dude, my POS in empire would certainly not stand in your way... would it?

I don't understand the reluctance, all I see is that you don't want players like me to have one, because I won't hapily be your cannon fodder.

Over and over, no matter how you BS your way through it, I keep seeing the same common denominator.

And who ever said an MMO was not supposed to be fun? Why should it be like work, or even more tedious & stressful than work?

Joshua Calvert
Caldari
Rule One
Posted - 2004.10.11 18:57:00 - [157]
 

Discorp, Avon, drunkenmaster, Hardin:

Are you guys completely against any form of player-owned structure in systems above 0.1 security status?

My opinion is that 0.5+ should be devoid of any player-owned structure but 0.2-0.4 should have limited functionality constrained by methods in my previous posts on this thread.

0.0 and 0.1 should have full access.

KIAHicks
Caldari
Black Nova Corp
KenZoku
Posted - 2004.10.11 18:58:00 - [158]
 

Edited by: KIAHicks on 11/10/2004 19:05:36
I thought it was made clear they'd be 0.0 only quite some time ago. In one of the dev blogs (or those meeting thingys that I can't remember the acronym for) it was stated that tech 3 would only manufacturable in 0.0 space due to its reliance on the needs of POS.

I beleive the idea was to make most of the goods available in empire, but require 0.0 for building. This way you get a reason for both the empire lot and the 0.0 lot to need each other and work with/trade with each other to get tech3 items.

Now this was a long time ago and quite probably undergone many design changes. But I personally think making pos 0.0 only is for the best in the long term goal of things. EG Not making the game playable compleatly from just 0.0 or just from empire.

I guess one design change is that they're allowing limited low sec usage as well, which isn't a bad thing, and certainly not as bad as if they'd allow these to be planted in safe >0.5 space.

DeFood
Gallente
UMEC
Posted - 2004.10.11 19:04:00 - [159]
 

The wrong game!? Galk, take a look at the map sometime, turn on "show pilots in space" and see where 90% of the pilots are. Heres a clue: not in 0.0 Heres another clue: not even in 0.4 and below.

CmdoColin
Posted - 2004.10.11 19:15:00 - [160]
 

From a story point of view - how does a solo pilot mine a moon? I find the concept alittle odd.

I'm very much a player who believes in group play - this is an MMOG after all. Rightly or wrongly - that is what I pay to play for.

Mining is most profitable in 0.0, and the most risky. For you to truely get the profits you do need a group for protection. To me - starbases - are just a continuation of this theme.

If you don't want to engage in PvP, there is plenty to do in secure space. As a solo player in secure space you forgo the chance to get involved in the 0.0 alliance wars, the 0.0 mining. From what I can understand you also give up the chance to run your own station with shiva.

I've given up content for my character. I like frigate combat, so I've never put a single research point into mining, and everything into frigates and inties, rather than cruisers or bs. Yeah it is hard to earn money, but I've chosen that path - and gone 0.0 allaince combat pilot - with only 100k skill points at the time. Sure I'm not very good - but I have fun - fun that I choose.

What it will do is open up alot more slots for production and research in high sec space. The allaince war decleration system will make ALL space dangerous for the large 0.0 alliances. As such, most/all their production and research capabilities will go with them to their home space. This allows content for all - rather than the first come first served basis we have now.

Just my theory and thoughts...

Galk
Gallente
Autumn Tactics
All the things she said
Posted - 2004.10.11 19:16:00 - [161]
 

Well droping the arguement, well my points and stooping to the low level....

Just how many stations do you see in 0.0 compared to high sec empireLaughing

It's exactly what your saying i thinkSmile

Well going by it.... 0.0 needs more players and stations... high sec empire doesn't.........

Sorry i just couldn't resist itVery Happy

drunkenmaster
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2004.10.11 19:33:00 - [162]
 

Originally by: Joshua Calvert
Discorp, Avon, drunkenmaster, Hardin:

Are you guys completely against any form of player-owned structure in systems above 0.1 security status?

My opinion is that 0.5+ should be devoid of any player-owned structure but 0.2-0.4 should have limited functionality constrained by methods in my previous posts on this thread.

0.0 and 0.1 should have full access.


I never expected to have to tell you, of all people, to read my posts. You're a bad man. Bad.

0.1-0.4 is fine with me, as long as they are restricted in what they can do.

I may even be lenient and suggest that you could have 2-3 research or factory slots there. After all, they're going to be ridiculously expensive, and there will be some risk involved, so it's not like the market will be flooded, people will be paying hundreds of millions for these things, and will probably be loathe to rent them out, unless they intend to steal people's BPC, of course Twisted Evil

I just think having them in 0.5+ is a bad idea.

If they allow it, bad people will just find a juicy one, war dec the corp on a sunday, and blast it out of the sky on the Monday. This will upset people, and they will leave the game because someone blew up their housey.

So the end result will be the same, as far as the player is concerned. Either way, it will be a lost account.

What is more important to me is keeping the balance between the risky/non-risky parts of space. as it stands, 0.5+ only corps/solos need the fruits of the labour of the 0.0-0.4 corps to supply them with building materials. If they didn't, nobody would ever have left mainline empire.

I don't care if people are too comfortable in AFK space to leave, that's their loss.

But negating the value of anything more dangerous is not a positive thing for the game.

pvp'ers depend on carebears, and carebears depend on pvp'ers* and the balance must be maintained.



*no, not *all* of them, before anyone chimes in with 'but xyz corp don't blah blah'. I'm talking generally here, folks.

Rod Blaine
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2004.10.11 19:51:00 - [163]
 

Edited by: Rod Blaine on 11/10/2004 19:58:32
Originally by: Carebear Barney
If POS can be implemented so griefing is minimized or taken out completely then I'm OK with what CCP does.


Read this again, and again and then imagine how people would interpret this.

Basically it sounds like you are saying:

"If POS can be implemented so I can have one and operate it with little to zero risk then I'm ok with what ccp does"

Now can you imagine that the balance of this game, meaning the risk v reward balance, will be right out of the window once you allow that ? Zero risk yet more reward ?

I can imagine you want to be part of the operation and control pos allow, but I can also imagine that other people would object to introducing even more no-risk isk earning tools.

It's not that I don't want you to have fun, I do. It's that changing this part of the equasion of risk v reward unbalances the road ahead for this game. Low security empire space was never meant to be high risk space, it is not now and CCP have already gone to great lengths to make it even less so. The introduction of POS in high security empire space would make the introduction of POS in low security empire space superflous.

If there has been one glaring problem in this game to this date it has been that of balancing the scale or risk v reward from 1.0 to 0.0 so that taking a step up on the risk ladder brings you a step higher on the reward ladder.

Currently, operating out of 0.2 for example makes no sense at all. There is only 0.5+ (which is equal to 1.0 for all things that matter) and 0.0. There is only the earning potential of high sec space and the earning potential of 0.0 space. There is only the no-risk zone and the absolute risk zone. Only black and white.

POS are THE tool to introduce shades of grey into this. Putting them into 1.0 with any functionality at all would severely lessen this ability to blend the current black and white of Eve.

Some s(n)ide remarks to add in reaction to post added since my last reply here:

0.0 is full of people that do NOT shoot neutrals. Actually, I'd guerss about 80% of the people in 0.0 do NOT shoot neutrals. I know we do not, and we are not the least force to reckon with in our part of 0.0 space.

In reaction to the guy saying CCP cannot withold pos from 0.5+ players now that these players have been waiting for them for so long:
Where did ccp ever give you the idea POS would be placeable in high sec space ? If you would have kept up to date on the issue you would have seen a good number of hard indications they would not. In fact CCP has made clear that the role of POS was already to be sought in low security space. I for one always was convinced by their information on the matter that POS-mechanics and economics are intended to boost the economic infrastructure of 0.0 space as well as add a static inherent worth to the defence of resources there.

Anyway, we can only see and listen as to what CCP does with the playerbase input and their own designs for this, thusfar unique, game.

Carebear Barney
Caldari
Posted - 2004.10.11 20:51:00 - [164]
 

Edited by: Carebear Barney on 11/10/2004 20:54:44
Edited by: Carebear Barney on 11/10/2004 20:54:11
Rod Blaine,

No, I'm not afraid of risk, actually it's the only thing that gets my heart rate up in this game... I welcome it.

My experience from Day One in this game was being in 0.4.. I'm just flying around looking at the awesome graphics, then three some guys web-scrambled me, blows my Ibis up, demands a 2 Mil ISK bribe in local chat else they pod me right on the spot. I tell them that I'm new to the game and was just sight seeing, then one of them replies.. "STFU you worthless Noob, get back in 0.5 Space where the likes of you belong", then he calls me names like scum of the Universe & Fecking Stupid Veld Sucker, etc. and then pods me on the spot like I was a sacrificed animal. So as you can see, the very start of this game gave me memories in 0.4 alone which have been branded in my memory forever.

You can now see where my point of reference is coming from now, hopefully.


Kel Shek
Posted - 2004.10.11 21:06:00 - [165]
 

only skimming the last couple pages... god you people get talky sometimes.

honestly whats the fun in having a POS if theres no threat to it at all? at least in my imagination, say, being chased to my POS by a pirate, (them not knowing theres a POS there, just watching my warp and following, since there HAPPENED to be a celestial body where I pointed) and then being popped by my turrets missiles and suchlike automated defenses, would be FUN.

on another thread it was mentioned how that a POS could easily be put into reinforced mode by a fleet of 20 BS's. lol, of course, this was said by someone who thought this was no big deal... or at least thats the impression I got. now.. I don't know about you, but if I was in a place to command 20 BS's, and there was an installation to attack, that would, at least for the time between arrival, and doing something like 800k damage collectively, would be shooting with likely numerous turrets of various sizes, be shooting cruise missiles, torps, and probably heavy missiles at you, likely taking out at least a couple of your ships... I'd want to have a good reason to be attacking that.

as far as I can figure, they are going to make it so your casual solo ship, or even small group, will NOT be able to take out an even modest POS, if it is intelligently arranged and kept maintained. (ie: plenty of ammo/missiles, plenty of fuel...)

remember that 800k damage or whatever, before being able to actually make any real progress, is a HELL of a long shot for all but a huge group(referred to 20 BS fleet) and you have THAT much time to do enough damage to take out the attacking ships.

yeah it could be expensive supplying it with missiles and such to do it... but isn't that part of the work that goes into maintaining it?

I honestly don't get the opinion that 8 people couldn't handle maintaining a modest POS, especially in .4 I think they want it to be such that an INSANE soloer could handle a small POS, or a small corp could handle a small one.

the problem being defending it of course.... but if you build it right, from what I'ev seen and expect.... your average small group will not be able to take one out at will. but maybe I'm overestimating the toughness, and underestimating the cost

another issue, I think... will be a problem people have with that whole "living within your means" thing. its not something people who play this game seem to be real good at. if the support for a POS is a 10 person average activity corp, they cannot expect to maintain a POS the same size as a corp the size of a Megacorp.

my speculation is that a hardcore, low key soloer, who picks out a good quiet spot, will be able to maintain a POS with enough defense to fend off your common passing rabble efficiently, and to have his own factory and refining and hangar, and moon mining, and be able to do that on his own.

I don't think it will be all that difficult to set up defenses that will be able to defend the unattended POS from pretty much any solo pilot, and all but the best coordinated small groups.

Quote:
If CCP does not allow POS's in empire, then they are stopping a lot of players from having a kind of fun they were really looking forward to having.
they are already essentialy 99% going to have POS in everything below .4, the question here is wether it should be in .5

Quote:
From a story point of view - how does a solo pilot mine a moon? I find the concept alittle odd.
you don't "solo" pilot a ship bigger than a frig either. you have a crew, they just are expendable, :-P you have hired people that are expendable on your POS.

if you fly ONLY Frigs... well... wow. good for you, Wink I honestly can't imagine doing that.

people will think POS = houses. and they'll want it to have all the bells and whistles, and be indestructable. which is not what they are for.

I think that being low key, can do alot more for one's safety than people are giving credit. its really quite simple, at least in theory.
1) avoid becoming a threat to whoever "them" is.
2) while putting up enough defense to make it not worth their time/risk to attack you. example: your in a cruiser, a solo T1 frigate follows you to a gate. you deploy drones. assuming they are really on their own... this will as far as I've ever heard or seen, be enough to scare them away.
3) don't attract attention. strip mining, taking sides, engaging in combat other than with NPC's...

both in RL (obviously with other references for detail stuff) and in game, these sorta general concepts can help avoid conflicts. yeah, some people will attack whatever moves. but I don't get the feeling they are the majority.


Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2004.10.11 21:40:00 - [166]
 

Edited by: Avon on 11/10/2004 21:44:12
Originally by: drunkenmaster
Originally by: Joshua Calvert
Discorp, Avon, drunkenmaster, Hardin:

Are you guys completely against any form of player-owned structure in systems above 0.1 security status?

My opinion is that 0.5+ should be devoid of any player-owned structure but 0.2-0.4 should have limited functionality constrained by methods in my previous posts on this thread.

0.0 and 0.1 should have full access.


I never expected to have to tell you, of all people, to read my posts. You're a bad man. Bad.

0.1-0.4 is fine with me, as long as they are restricted in what they can do.

I may even be lenient and suggest that you could have 2-3 research or factory slots there. After all, they're going to be ridiculously expensive, and there will be some risk involved, so it's not like the market will be flooded, people will be paying hundreds of millions for these things, and will probably be loathe to rent them out, unless they intend to steal people's BPC, of course Twisted Evil

I just think having them in 0.5+ is a bad idea.

If they allow it, bad people will just find a juicy one, war dec the corp on a sunday, and blast it out of the sky on the Monday. This will upset people, and they will leave the game because someone blew up their housey.

So the end result will be the same, as far as the player is concerned. Either way, it will be a lost account.

What is more important to me is keeping the balance between the risky/non-risky parts of space. as it stands, 0.5+ only corps/solos need the fruits of the labour of the 0.0-0.4 corps to supply them with building materials. If they didn't, nobody would ever have left mainline empire.

I don't care if people are too comfortable in AFK space to leave, that's their loss.

But negating the value of anything more dangerous is not a positive thing for the game.

pvp'ers depend on carebears, and carebears depend on pvp'ers* and the balance must be maintained.



*no, not *all* of them, before anyone chimes in with 'but xyz corp don't blah blah'. I'm talking generally here, folks.


Pretty much what DM said.

My fault for using the term 'Empire Space' to mean 0.5 and above, always leading to confusion. Technically there are even 0.0 Empire systems so I could see how my comments could be confusing.

'Safe' (Concord protected) space - absolutely no POS.
'Other Empire' - including those pesky 0.0's - limited functionality, high taxes and other Empire related beaurocracy stuff. Low yeild. These things should be able to mine the resources required to make techII components, but not at a profit. The whole thing should lead to a dependable supply for manufacturing corps, not a way to sell the stuff on for profit.
The one thing that really concerns me is what defences to allow in these areas. I think things like turrets and launchers should be a no-no, just have the ecm defences.

All other 0.0 non-empire systems, survival of the fittest. Full, unrestricted, POS.

Rod Blaine
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2004.10.11 22:56:00 - [167]
 

Originally by: Carebear Barney
Edited by: Carebear Barney on 11/10/2004 20:54:44
Edited by: Carebear Barney on 11/10/2004 20:54:11
Rod Blaine,

No, I'm not afraid of risk, actually it's the only thing that gets my heart rate up in this game... I welcome it.

My experience from Day One in this game was being in 0.4.. I'm just flying around looking at the awesome graphics, then three some guys web-scrambled me, blows my Ibis up, demands a 2 Mil ISK bribe in local chat else they pod me right on the spot. I tell them that I'm new to the game and was just sight seeing, then one of them replies.. "STFU you worthless Noob, get back in 0.5 Space where the likes of you belong", then he calls me names like scum of the Universe & Fecking Stupid Veld Sucker, etc. and then pods me on the spot like I was a sacrificed animal. So as you can see, the very start of this game gave me memories in 0.4 alone which have been branded in my memory forever.

You can now see where my point of reference is coming from now, hopefully.




Oh well, I guess you had the disfortune to meet the native species of rather dumb carnivorous animals called pi3rat.

The pi3rat is an evolutionairy spinoff of the pirate, and while rather succesfull in their chosen habitat they lack stamina and strength to surivive in more harsh conditions. Therefore they are mostly found in 0.1 to 0.4 security systems.

Aside from their inability to deal with any competition in their evolutionairy niche, they also have the habit of swiftly dissapearing upon the introduction of a more domesticised counter-species called bountyhunter or corp-protection force.

Beleive me, the spineless ******s that acted like that to you do in no means represent the majority of 0.0 space inhabitants.

It's just that low security empire space seems to offer some easy targets to them. Would this part of space offer more, or slightly harder targets, this species would soon be eradicated.

Maybe a preserve would be in order, can I propose they be transported to that closed off section of toally empty and useless space in the east somewhere ?

Wharchild
Posted - 2004.10.11 23:16:00 - [168]
 

I feel this game is full of systems that look well and good when viewed individually, but are dysfunctional when viewed in the context of the whole game. Sometimes there is an attention to mechanics, but rarely does it seem there much attention paid to how the mechanics interact with and impact player behavior. I expect POS to be no different.

On the risk v. reward front, let's take a look at 0.0 space. Inherently, operating in zero-sec space isn't much more dangerous than operating in low-sec empire. The NPC spawns can be tougher, but it's still just AI. If you want to avoid them, you generally can. The real danger comes from other players. In low-sec empire, safety is generally just a hop to a sentry gun away. No such luxury in zero-sec.

All of 0.0 space is currently "claimed" by various alliances, most of whom also claim exclusive rights to that space. I.e., if you're not a member of the alliance, you're at the very least escorted from "their" space if not outright destroyed. These alliances base their claims on their ability to defend their space by military might. For quite some time, they are the ones who have been benefiting from rare ores, rich NPC spawns (now including officers) and soon-to-come, complexes (and speculatively tech-3 research, boosters and other black market uberness). Now let's give them POS...

"Each structure costs from cruiser to a battleship, keeping in the initial cost of building a Starbase from being prohibitive."

Presumably, these alliances will build POS (initially around the moons which generate the highest income). In those systems, the alliance members now have the security of a sentry gun to run to. So let's attack it...

"Attacking an Starbase is no small feat, the defenses heavily benefit the defender so it results in considerable losses, mostly to the attacker to assault a Starbase."

Ouch...

After the reinforced state, the defender will however be prepared for the attack and have ships within the defense perimeter ready to receive the attacking force."

What size fleet will it take to get through the reinforced state and destroy the starbase before the defending alliance instajumps in? And what did they lose even if you do destroy it? What did you gain? You better hope for a nice BPO or something because the cost of rebuilding is insubstantial for these alliances. And these things generate more cash...

"In some cases of course, you would want to strategically place Starbases, as a forward outpost and the cost of ownership not an issue. That is your choice."

So now you place them in systems that may not have a superb moon, but rich ore belts or simply for safety.

I'm seeing less risk, more reward. Zero-sec space becomes the suburbs and empire space the decaying inner city. If you're accepted by the neighborhood association, you get to enjoy all the benefits placed in zero-sec under the guise of "risk v. reward", but in security only somewhat less (due to lack of gate guns) than low-sec empire space. And in one sense, it offers more protection: against a war target, I suspect your guns will still protect you when an empire gun wouldn't. And the only real restriction I'm aware of on how large and safe an alliance can make their empire is the workforce required to keep their POS supplied with consumables. Where's the frontier now?

And as complex as some people claim EVE Online to be, it's still a very simple simulation of what life would really be like. Most of the factors that would limit personal and group behavior in real life are absent from the game. Here, you can murder as many law-abiding citizens as you like as long as you do it in the shadows (zero-sec space) and still walk the streets of New Caldari Prime (and do agent missions and benefit from the protection of CONCORD etc) without any fear. Heck, you can even muder in the open (low-sec empire) as long as you offset your actions by murdering enough other criminals to keep your sec status up. I've seen no indication of a diplomatic system or any other mechanic to keep alliances in check. Perhaps the Jove visit to the alliances was foreshadowing, but who knows? Yet even if it is, players will find a way around mechanics. By using alts or creating "sister alliances" who maintain good relations with the empires, zero-sec alliances will be able to benefit from every aspect of the game without regulation.

Introducting mechanics like ownership of space, especially the richest space (and with a new revenue stream to boot), without all the necessary regulating factors is one more mechanic that allows one group of players to gain an substantial advantage over another. In my experiences, MMO players tend to flee a losing team for a winning team. The biggest problem with introducing mechanics that allow players to win is, invariably someone does.

DarkMatter
Sintered Sanity
Posted - 2004.10.11 23:43:00 - [169]
 

Alliances & 0.0 imhabitants seem to get all things high end delivered to their doorstep, those of us who want no part of alliances, and being told how to play the game are left out in the cold.

I don't need or want some alliance boss telling me how I should run my corp, I will run it the way I want, on my own timetable.

I don't consider the definition of a multiplayer game to be:

Come home from work, log and, and recieve orders from your alliance boss. That's crap, not multiplayer.



TheMiner
Posted - 2004.10.11 23:56:00 - [170]
 

Dont mind DarkMatter. He just wants everything handed to him on a silver (golden perhaps) platter. POS are not "houses." Get that cearbear thought out of your noob cearbear mind, noob. Risk VS Reward.




Ah.. just kidding. I see your point now. Why not allow POS in .5+ systems if you also add a good tax to its operation and make it so the moons are not as lucrative? It satisfies the cearbears, it does not give them a huge reward for min risk (since they have to pay taxes and the moons do not yeild as much, they dont make as much profit)..and it will be fun for empire corp war people. Why not? You can no longer argue that the risk vs reward is not balanced. Let the non-adventurous scardy cat type people have some noob cearbear fun.

Archbishop
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2004.10.12 00:01:00 - [171]
 


Quote:
"There is a risk of getting shot at, yes, but those risks are so infinitesimal, especially when you're in the 100% safety of a control tower's forcefield, that you have nothing to worry about."


Discorporation [EVOL] has made an excellent point here that I failed to consider. In .4 and below there are still defenses possible.

In fact in looking at it from his view I can see where only a really giant fleet coming along would be able to dent one of these things.

I've never participated in a player-owned station attack (I moved from 0.0 before they came in) so perhaps Disco or Digital or someone can explain them to me. I believe they take MASSIVE amounts of firepower to conquer. I mean its not something a few stray ships can accomplish correct?

So I will reevaluate my position and now agree that .4 and below would be best. I make this reevaluation based on the newfound knowledge that you can still be "protected" from the random gankers yet in a real war you'll really be at risk. My concern about the random killers is based on "pirate experiences" with pirates in my past. With a sentry tower (or 10) that isn't such a concern is it?

I have one question. Is there a limit to the number of sentry towers you can place (and defense shield things)? Can you really fortify a base so it is uber-protected?

Archbishop
PIE CORPORATION

These views are my personal views and not those of PIE CORPORATION

Miri Tirzan
Caldari
Clan Korval
Posted - 2004.10.12 00:12:00 - [172]
 

Well, I was not going to inject into this as it appears to be turning into the standard whining. My only question is, for those living happily in 0.0, why do you care what the people in empire space are doing? As far as I can see, other than empire space being where you drag stuff to sell, nothing that happens there matters to you.

Basically, this does not look like a discussion of the why PoS would be good or bad in empire space, but rather, the standard "I dont think the game should be like that so...."

And the list of similar topics.. mining with battleships, mining in empire space, coping BPOs and selling them, etc... .

The thing I like about Eve is that anyone can do just about anything. The problem with Eve is that some players will not accept that not everyone has to play like them and that there is room in Eve for many styles of play.

Personnaly, I would like to see PoS in Empire space but require the owner to have a good enough rating with the Empire in question. It would be nice if some of the content that was promised was finally in the game... such as good rating would let you become a custom agent.

drunkenmaster
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2004.10.12 00:12:00 - [173]
 

Originally by: DarkMatter
Alliances & 0.0 imhabitants seem to get all things high end delivered to their doorstep, those of us who want no part of alliances, and being told how to play the game are left out in the cold.

I don't need or want some alliance boss telling me how I should run my corp, I will run it the way I want, on my own timetable.

I don't consider the definition of a multiplayer game to be:

Come home from work, log and, and recieve orders from your alliance boss. That's crap, not multiplayer.




I think most of the people that have read this thread already realise that you're generally antisocial, and have a very blinkered view of alliances. I don't think it's necessary to drive the point home any further.

I play this game to enjoy myself, and to meet interesting people, both friend and foe. And you are definitely interesting. Just in a wierd way. Your inability to view the bigger picture will leave you disappointed at one stage of the game or another.

I'm now looking forward to the 'bah! Titans are designed to discriminate against solo players' thread with baited breath...

As for Mr. Carebear (no offence, that's his name): I used to be a pirate, but not of the ilk you unfortunately met. I've never been verbally hostile to anyone that wasn't verbally hostile to me first (In which case I will unleash the fury). Yes, I may have relieved them from their ships one way or another, or taken some money from their wallets, but it was always done in a professional way. Some may not have seen it as particularly nice, but I guess they just hadn't managed to meet the 'nasty' types back then..

I am no longer a pirate, although I am occasionally tempted, but I won't attack anyone that is not hostile to my corp. Most corps out in 0.0 follow similar 'rules of engagement'.

It's really not as bad as most people will lead you to believe. And they only lead you to believe that because they are minting it out in 0.0, and don't want the idea to become too popular. Don't believe everything you read.

RollinDutchMasters
Gallente
Ordnance Delivery Services Inc.
Posted - 2004.10.12 00:16:00 - [174]
 

If POS are allowed in .5+ (not arguing if they should or shouldnt) I know that I for one will be war decing and ransoming as many of them as I possibly can.

"Good evening, this is a stickup. Please donate 200m to me or your labslots get it in the back of the skull"

I don't imagine for a minute that there will be any shortage of people doing the same thing.

Archbishop
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2004.10.12 00:19:00 - [175]
 

DarkMatter posted:
Quote:
"I'm already not allowed to mine high end ores, or should not be allowed to mine in BS's, what else do you guys not want me to have?"


Dark thats not entirely true. You can mine anywhere you want if your willing to accept the risks. I'll be the first to admit I've gone out in 0.0 space (in an Omen with an alt) to mine higher end ores. It's risk and I "ninja mine" but its doable. It is alot of work and I have been blown up (by NPC's no players). It does have financial rewards. When Zydrine was 9,000 each a couple of months ago you can bet I was out there mining (and running) in 0.0.

So your not "prohibited" from mining in 0.0. I have to agree with Hardin also that there are many near-abandoned 0.0 - 0.4 systems. You just have to watch local and have an escape plan in case danger arrives. You'll lose some ships thats a given but you can also have fun doing it.

The more I think about it now the more I'm glad I changed my position on this issue. Considering we'll have defensive capabilities for these POS theres no reason ANYONE can't put them in .4 systems. I'm hoping a veteran 0.0 player posts an answer to my question about the forces needed to conquer a player station (in my last post). I'm assuming it'll take more then a few battleships to dent a POS especially if Oppressor towers are shooting back.

Archbishop Smile

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2004.10.12 00:43:00 - [176]
 

Edited by: Avon on 12/10/2004 00:46:32
Originally by: Archbishop
DarkMatter posted:
Quote:
"I'm already not allowed to mine high end ores, or should not be allowed to mine in BS's, what else do you guys not want me to have?"


Dark thats not entirely true. You can mine anywhere you want if your willing to accept the risks. I'll be the first to admit I've gone out in 0.0 space (in an Omen with an alt) to mine higher end ores. It's risk and I "ninja mine" but its doable. It is alot of work and I have been blown up (by NPC's no players). It does have financial rewards. When Zydrine was 9,000 each a couple of months ago you can bet I was out there mining (and running) in 0.0.

So your not "prohibited" from mining in 0.0. I have to agree with Hardin also that there are many near-abandoned 0.0 - 0.4 systems. You just have to watch local and have an escape plan in case danger arrives. You'll lose some ships thats a given but you can also have fun doing it.

The more I think about it now the more I'm glad I changed my position on this issue. Considering we'll have defensive capabilities for these POS theres no reason ANYONE can't put them in .4 systems. I'm hoping a veteran 0.0 player posts an answer to my question about the forces needed to conquer a player station (in my last post). I'm assuming it'll take more then a few battleships to dent a POS especially if Oppressor towers are shooting back.

Archbishop Smile



Ok, I was just trying this on the Shiva test server against POS (not that I asked permission :D)

The defences on a well set-up POS are formidable. Getting up close it not really an option in a large ship, so maximum damage isn't really possible.

Overcomming the force field which prevents you attacking things within it is in itself a mighty task, and then you will have to take out the defences before moving in on the control tower.

To do this easily you are going to need a huge amount of firepower, a long time, and control of the system. Resupplying will have to be prevented, so you have to keep the system clear of anyone who may be helping the POS. This will be hard in 0.0 systems, but I am not sure how well it could be done in sentry protected empire systems - criminal flagging will make system control almost impossible.

I forsee lots of apocs with tachs and radio crystals being in demand - start producing guys :D

DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
Posted - 2004.10.12 00:50:00 - [177]
 

Originally by: Archbishop

Quote:
"There is a risk of getting shot at, yes, but those risks are so infinitesimal, especially when you're in the 100% safety of a control tower's forcefield, that you have nothing to worry about."


Discorporation [EVOL] has made an excellent point here that I failed to consider. In .4 and below there are still defenses possible.

In fact in looking at it from his view I can see where only a really giant fleet coming along would be able to dent one of these things.

I've never participated in a player-owned station attack (I moved from 0.0 before they came in) so perhaps Disco or Digital or someone can explain them to me. I believe they take MASSIVE amounts of firepower to conquer. I mean its not something a few stray ships can accomplish correct?

So I will reevaluate my position and now agree that .4 and below would be best. I make this reevaluation based on the newfound knowledge that you can still be "protected" from the random gankers yet in a real war you'll really be at risk. My concern about the random killers is based on "pirate experiences" with pirates in my past. With a sentry tower (or 10) that isn't such a concern is it?

I have one question. Is there a limit to the number of sentry towers you can place (and defense shield things)? Can you really fortify a base so it is uber-protected?

Archbishop
PIE CORPORATION

These views are my personal views and not those of PIE CORPORATION



It took me and two RKK pilots to take down a control tower's shields approx 2-3 hours. The tower had zero defense. Not only that but no one was home to boost the shields.

Imagine if CCP implemented my suggestion of being able to lock things if you are inside.. You and your entire corp would basically be able to lock the control tower and shield boost it, negating any long term damage on the tower. Not only that but you wouldn't need to worry about getting shot, and the attackers would need to worry about the defenses.

Final point: a reasonably well defended base cannot be taken down by random gankers. If someone wanted to take your base they'd need to bring a fleet. Then you should be prepared to counter that fleet with one of your own..


Archbishop
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2004.10.12 00:55:00 - [178]
 

Quote:
"Final point: a reasonably well defended base cannot be taken down by random gankers. If someone wanted to take your base they'd need to bring a fleet. Then you should be prepared to counter that fleet with one of your own.. "


Thank you both Avon and Digital for those answers. You've confirmed for me that my "change of heart" on this issue was a correct judgement on my part.

To all who don't see this let me explain. My big "argument" for allowing the POS into .5 - .8 was the fact the "random ganker" could come along and just gank you for no reason. Digital has pretty well confirmed thats not the case. Thats all I care about. If a fleet shows up it's probably a war anyway and you can expect to be attacked so no surprise there.

So 0.4 to 0.0 is ok with me now. Thanks guys!

Archbishop Smile

DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
Posted - 2004.10.12 01:01:00 - [179]
 

Originally by: Avon

Ok, I was just trying this on the Shiva test server against POS (not that I asked permission :D)

The defences on a well set-up POS are formidable. Getting up close it not really an option in a large ship, so maximum damage isn't really possible.

Overcomming the force field which prevents you attacking things within it is in itself a mighty task, and then you will have to take out the defences before moving in on the control tower.

To do this easily you are going to need a huge amount of firepower, a long time, and control of the system. Resupplying will have to be prevented, so you have to keep the system clear of anyone who may be helping the POS. This will be hard in 0.0 systems, but I am not sure how well it could be done in sentry protected empire systems - criminal flagging will make system control almost impossible.

I forsee lots of apocs with tachs and radio crystals being in demand - start producing guys :D


Another good point, get to 75km and you'll be scrambled, webbed and cruised to death in a minute. If you attack past that range you'll get dampened, either by the dampening array or by someone with a scorp on the inside. People underestimate the level of defense you can have with a good base and good tactics.

Slithereen
Amarr
Posted - 2004.10.12 01:21:00 - [180]
 

Edited by: Slithereen on 12/10/2004 01:24:04

I'm for POS in 0.5 and above, but in a limited way. POS in empire space should not have the full facilities of those in less secure space.

* Corporation, Individual or Alliance Requires high faction standing

* Manufacturing, Research, and Office space is only allowed, no mining and refining.

* Required Taxes for Empire/Concord.

* No black markets or unauthorized tech development.

* Numbers will be specifically limited---a system or a moon can only have a fixed X amount of stations.

The idea is to create and maintain Empire space like a downtown city environment and make them the centers of research, marketing, and manufacturing as they should be.

As expected, empire space should be subject to the same strict zoning and regulatory rules like any structure in a city should do.

0.4 to 0.1 POS will have "zoning" like that of the above, but will allow mining and refineries. Still subject to taxes and required high faction standings. This should be called "suburban" development.

0.0 POS. No requirements at all in faction standings, no limits on the number of bases made, all types of structures permitted, no texes etc,. "Unrestricted" or "frontier" development. Stations on 0.0 will have the lowest operating costs of all.

Taxation will be gradual, based on the security of the system---the higher, the greater the taxation rate.

Faction standing will also be gradual---the higher sec the system you want to build in, the higher the required faction status should be.

All this is designed to reflect the higher cost of real estate property in "downtown".


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