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Rod Blaine
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2004.10.10 17:40:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: S'Daria
Originally by: Dufas
first..why would u want to build POS in empire in the first place when they have stations in just about every system you can use for free


1. Lab slots
2. There are systems with no stations in Empire
3. A place to call their own
4. They have alot of money and want to spend it on something
5. They would like the challenge of the economics to keep it going
6. Its fun for the carebears
7. They want it even if its costs alot - that should be enough for paying customers to get it from CCP


/shrug

Alianating a entire section of the populace because they don't like PvP (I don't know why, its fun), is not good PR and its not good business.

You guys shouldn't be complaining about POS in Empire because they'll be able to moon mine (even if its inferior than in 0.0), and help keep the prices of consumables lower for your stations!!!




It's not about ****ing pvp !
It's about having players not realise that this is NOT a game to be played to its full extent without you taking any risk.
There's lots of people in 0.0 space what dont pvp at all.

Lets see:
1. Sorry, what exactly do you think oveur meant when he said pos in 0.5-0.7, IF allowed at all, would have restriction in their functionalities ? There will be no labs in pos in empire space. What would that accomplish except giving them empire space people more reason never to take any risk at all.
2. Not many, and why should every system have a station anyway ?
3. though luck, make a place in low sec space. It's not as dangerous as you people think. Reward = home of your own, risk = small chance of getting into trouble if you dont involve yourself in the team aspect of this game enough.
4. why do that have all that money ? Cant they think of doing something fun ? If not, not their game. ISK is a tool, not an end. If you didnt realise that by your first billion you missed a basic lesson somewhere.
5. valid reason, but not a reason to keep it in high sec only. There's nothing preventing them from entering low security space. Believe me, I fly all kinds of ships to and from empire space from deep 0.0 space and have done so for over a year without getting killed even once !
6. oh yeah, but how long ? Carebears just need to realise the fun is in the risk. Eventually, avoiding all riosk leads to boredom only. Take insurance, have a backup plan and just try it for once you pussies.
7. bah, people who say thin should have their account canceled by ccp. If you think ccp should make the game they way you like it and remove all challenge for it so you can have everything in two weeks just because you pay for the game you should have your head examined.

Alianating a entire section of the populace because they don't like PvP (I don't know why, its fun), is not good PR and its not good business.

It's not ? Tell me why please ?

Think about it, of ccp had wanted this game to draw 1 million subscribers and didn't care how to do that they would have prevented pvp from the start. Look at the really big earning mmo's out there and tell me which US/EU centered one is full of pvp ? There is none.

Yet, CCP go to great lengths to keep pvp viable as a key part of Eve's gameplay....

Eve is a niche game. Not a mainline mmo for the carebears under us. Eve is about strategic teamplay warfare and ecoonomic competition. Planning and strict organisation are rewarded in this game. And most of all, the fun in Eve is to be sought in the presence of risk, not the avoidance of it.

Sorry about the harsh tone in my earlier reactions to this thread, but when I see threads like this one by players who havent grasped the culture of this game fully yet I get fearful of losing the one interesting MMO that exists at this moment to another carebear invasion.

Fester Addams
Minmatar
Posted - 2004.10.10 18:37:00 - [62]
 

Not that I have read the whole thread but as far as I can see the POS will be for the carebears.

As soon as they hit the game you will see what I meen :)

Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
Posted - 2004.10.10 20:27:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Sosona
It is nice that POS in 0.0 are nice new content for alliances, but since the local/map and scanner changes in shiva basically make trading runs into hostile 0.0 pointless


Yes, so let's all say no to the scanner/map changes and keep POS in 0.4 and below!

Kel Shek
Posted - 2004.10.10 21:43:00 - [64]
 

Quote:
You need a minimum of 1 hauler player for 4 miner players to run efficiently.
lol, and people gripe at my saying newbs shouldn't be in BS's...

this idea of needing 4 miners and 1 hauler to mine efficiently is.. well to put it simply, absurd.

there isn't some line where it suddenly becomes efficient where it wasn't before. efficiency is entirely relative.

I do almost all my mining solo, and am quite efficient.

in fact I'd dare say I'm likely more efficient than 4 miners and a hauler would be, why? I am not giving up 20% of my yeild to someone whos not pulling ore out of roids.

I can solo mine 33k m3 of scord, and haul it home, in like about an hour, give or take 5-10 minutes. solo.

say you have 4 people who can mine that much.... plus a hauler. dividing it evenly, suddenly MY yeild for that work is cut back to 26,400m3.

what were you saying about efficient?(especially since at least in my case, I'm one of the more efficient miners that I'd be mining with, making it even MORE of a loss comparatively, to my productiveness to my private wealth.

I think that POS will be avaliable in low sec empire. and I think thats good. I also expect that many will be dumb about it, and put it where its completely uneconomical, and uneffective, merely because they can. kinda like people who produce, and sell at or below mineral cost.

and not to mention a huge point of it even being remotely feasable/cost effective, is how much quantity the implemented POS will consume compared to how much you get of the needed minerals from ice mining, which is ENTIRELY unknown at the moment.

Archbishop
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2004.10.10 21:45:00 - [65]
 

Edited by: Archbishop on 10/10/2004 21:52:00

Alot of good comments on what is an important issue. I like the fact that people are staying mature and avoiding the "your a noob stfu" garbage talk that looks like it came form a third grader. There is actually a good thread started in the Shiva forum here:

SHIVA THREAD ON STATIONS

I myself have my own opinions on this matter for several very good reasons.

Quote:
"People who ask for POS in empire is the most vivid example of carebearism I can think of. There is absolutley no reason to put a base in empire other than you not wanting your base to get shot up."


Digital Communist your 100% incorrect here. Lets take a look at PIE for example. We have 20+ wars, fight daily, provide vivid roleplay for the Eve community, are you saying we have "no risk"? We lose ships all the time so do the Minmatar.

Yet as "defenders of the Empire" we have all kinds of reasons to want to put a base in Empire. This attitude of the 0.0 alliances that they're somehow so much better then anyone else or that their way of playing is the only way is nauseating. There are 40,000+ people playing Eve its a given not all of them are 0.0 players and its also a given there are MANY reasons for them not being in 0.0 other then "not wanting to be blown up".

Quote:
"I only have 2,000,000 experience points, 8,000,000 ISK in the bank, a thorax (almost to battleship too) and Iteron V. Even then, I cant afford to go waltzing through 0.0 space, I can barely defend myself in 0.5 space against NPC's."


Buggsi thats not entirely true either. In defense of those who play in 0.0 you need to accept some risk to go into 0.0. There are rewards to "risk" the reward is vast mineral wealth. I went into 0.0 right after beta and stayed there for months. The only thing keeping you out of 0.0 is your fear. Conquer your fear and take a chance.

Quote:
"I think POS should be available to anyone new or old in the game and buildable in all security systems. I came into the game wanting to have a small mining corp. My character isn't a fighter, but a miner. I want to run a corp of ppl who specialize in mining. I don't want to be forced into having a corp that looks like everyone elses corp with fighters, etc. "


Absolutely not. I don't want to wander into Amarr and find 52 stations, 65 mining platforms and 136 Oppressor towers. I don't want every Tom, **** and Harry (unless its TomB of course) to have a POS.

POS should be "goals" for big corporations or alliances. One real problem I have with POS is reading they won't cost much more then a battleship to build. I don't agree with that. These are major undertakings. I'd like to see MAJOR minerals required just to build them and MAJOR expenses in running them weekly. As for small corporations why don't you form a "trade alliance" and team up with other small corps to get a POS together? I think individuals or any small corp having POS is ridiculous. Likewise though I believe having POS only in .4 or below is ridiculous as well.

Lets look for a moment at POS. There are different types from the looks of it all we're getting at Shiva are Mining stations and Defense sentry gun towers. But don't forget we're also getting mining barges. So even little corps can go stripmine to their hearts content. There isn't a big need in Empire for POS. Still there is SOME need. If minerals found after Shiva will be only available at moons it only makes sense that people will harvest them in ANY moon system and not just .4 or below.

Quote:
"Let's not be condescending...I am well aware of what 'multiplayer' means...and it most certainly does not mean "team". "


Your right it doesn't mean "Team". But it doesn't mean because it doesn't mean team that every individual should expect to get everything everyone else does. (Does that make sense?).

Quote:
"You also hinted at Concord protecting said stations for free. Personally I don't think it's been decided one way or another. But another poster suggested that there should be a 'tax' or something to that effect. That would be a logical assumption...and not completely unreasonable I would think. If someone has enough ISK to buy him or herself a 'home'...then paying a monthly 'tax' should be no problem. "


Mr.Binary is quite correct here. There should be several things taken into account in POS in Empire including RESOURCES, STANDING, TAXES. The taxes for POS should be steep. Likewise there need to be limitations on CONCORD defense of POS in Empire. Basically they WON'T defend it. Thats what the defense towers are for!

Likewise just because a station or POS is in Empire doesn't mean there is no "risk". After all in a corp war anything goes. We have 20+ wars right now and fight daily. We have plenty of risk.

(to be continued)

Archbishop
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2004.10.10 21:47:00 - [66]
 

(continued from last post)

Quote:
"this discussion is stupid from the beginning...first..why would u want to build POS in empire in the first place when they have stations in just about every system you can use for free...POS are for .0 where stations are few and far between ... sometimes 1 or 2 in an entire region ... and if your playing by yourself with 2mill skill pts you sure as hell wont be able to afford to build a pos or have the skills to own it or defend it...best bet is to join an established .0 corp and stop whinning .... "


No its not stupid. Its a pretty mature conversation so far with a minimum of whining and smack talk. We need more discussions like this in Eve. First you'd want to build POS in Empire for the research stations (full stations - Kali probably). Also moon mining stations. There are moons in Empire not just 0.0.

Second for the RP aspect. A big part of Eve history is the Amarr-Minmatar war. Those of us who play RP in that venue live in the Empires. What are we supposed to do? Up and quit just to get POS? Abandon years (since beta) of work?

Who said POS are "for 0.0"?

I agree with you that someone with 2m skillpoints shouldn't expect to own a POS. They need to be so expensive and costly to run (in BOTH 0.0 AND empire) that only the largest alliances and corporations can build them.

Quote:
"POS cannot be destroyed in empire space if they can activate those shields that stop everything and only require an upkeep to keep them active. Since there is no way to starve out the POS from consumables."


They aren't immortal by any stretch of the imagination. Do you think the mineral supply in empire is unlimited? No in corp wars POS can still be destroyed in empire. There is plenty of risk in empire through corp wars and alliance wars. There are alliances based in empire for that matter.

Quote:
"So if it costs 1 billion or 2 or even 5 billion isk to build a POS in 0.5+ and using it barely pays the rent, thats fine for me. But building any POS below 0.5 is very pointless for me or a small(er) group. It will just drag some alliance or pirate group to it who will quickly kill it."


This is my biggest problem with only allowing POS in .4 and below. It isn't so much the "risk" as the "mindless" aspect. We have a group of players in this game who do nothing but run around and blow things up for a cheap thrill. There is no RP involved. There is no "big alliance" goal involved. They just blow things up. No purpose. No grand motivation other then their cheap thrill.

There are alot of people who play Eve who just don't play like that. Where is the economy we're supposed to have? Where is the stock market? Where is the financial risk? PvP is certainly part of Eve but it isn't the ONLY part and thats something many people seem to forget.

Someone posted in another thread that there are so many people into PvP they shouldn't even have to worry about .5 and above because they have endless PvP in 0.0 -.4. I agree 100% with this view. If I thought they were really fighting for something..... ANYTHING..... I'd feel different. But as of yet no one has shown me anything to the contrary.

Quote:
"Sosona is a rare exception and not the type of player this game caters towards."


Rod how do you know WHO this game caters too? I'd like to think it caters to everyone. I've seen nothing from CCP saying "Your a xxxxx player you don't need to bother". Eve has alot to offer we can all exist here together. We can all exist without demeaning anyone elses style of play.

Quote:
"And most of all, the fun in Eve is to be sought in the presence of risk, not the avoidance of it."


Fun is available in many different ways. Not all people play for "risk". Some play for economic conquest. Some play for X, Y or Z. We don't know peoples motivations. To say ONLY one way is right and everyone else is wrong isn't right and it isn't fair.

Quote:
"I can only accept POS to be placed in low sec if it's somehow connected with positive standing with the faction who claims the area. Actually I would like to see this rule include 0.0 too. (Why would the Gurista alow enemies to put up structures right in their domain any way?)."


I agree an excellent suggestion. These corps and alliances that want to build POS should have 9.0 or above standing and KEEP it to maintain control of the station.

CONCLUSION:

In conclusion I see no real reason to keep POS only in 0.0 - .4. The only ones arguing for it are the people who live in 0.0. In other words they want to "hog" some new content and force people out to them so they can gank them for no reason. Thats about all it boils down to. They completely discount as "not catered to" anyone who plays Eve differently from them.

Archbishop
Captain
PIE CORPORATION

These views are my own as a longtime player and beta tester. They are not the views of PIE.

Archbishop
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2004.10.10 21:48:00 - [67]
 


I would like to ask those who advocate POS in only 0.0 - 0.4 to answer a simple question for me.

HOW WOULD HAVING STATIONS IN .8 - .5 SPACE AFFECT MY GAMEPLAY

For the players who advocate POS in .5 - .8 systems (Empire) I'd like you to answer this question.

HOW WOULD HAVING STATIONS ONLY IN 0.0 - .4 SPACE AFFECT MY GAMEPLAY

When you answer post as an INDIVIDUAL describing how YOU DIRECTLY are affected by one or the other not some big "theory" of Eve gaming. How are YOU or YOUR CORP directly affected by this?

Archbishop
Captain
PIE CORPORATION

These views are my own as a longtime player and beta tester. They are not the views of PIE and I do not represent PIE in my statements. As someone who lives and wars heavily in empire space I have a real interest in this topic. Thank you for your politeness and mature comments.

Myko
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2004.10.10 22:07:00 - [68]
 

seeing as all im doing atm is logging in to change skills, wouldnt change my gameplay. Doesnt mean that i dont think its wrong, as it indirectly affects me.

For a lot of veteran players its the principle thats wrong, if every player can own multiple battleships etc., own billions of isk in the safety of 0.5-1.0, then whats the point of 0.0? Whats the point of PvP? Why is anything worth fighting over? The word is see bandied about a lot is 'jaded', and IMHO eve is fast approaching a carebear mining and production sim.

There is no high-end content at all, the changes that started with castor have made it so that isk is irrelevant, so that all that matters is skill training time. Roleplay and alliances are the only thing IMHO saving eve from becoming an attritional grind that never ends. All thats really left now are people fighting over silly made up stories and sectors of space.

The last couple of posts of this ilk have made me consider whether the majority of players really care about balance in eve anymore, or anything other than their own self-interest.

Princess Arcadia
Amarr
Doomheim
Posted - 2004.10.10 22:24:00 - [69]
 

Quote:
"HOW WOULD HAVING STATIONS ONLY IN 0.0 - .4 SPACE AFFECT MY GAMEPLAY"

Well since my corporation is empire based it would affect us alot. If we wanted to have a POS we'd have to move to unsecure space and deal with griefers and alliances. We dont have the numbers to stand up to those types of people. I play to make isk and new friends. Having to move to pirate space means giving up all we've worked for to date in eve. It would affect us in a major way.
Quote:
"Whats the point of PvP? Why is anything worth fighting over? The word is see bandied about a lot is 'jaded', and IMHO eve is fast approaching a carebear mining and production sim. "

I dont see that at all. Most of space is 0.0 space look at the map. There is plenty of pvp out there. Why dont you pvp people fight each other? Why do you insist on forcing everyone else to play your way?

Princess Arcadia
Libertas


BobGhengisKhan
Dashavatara
Posted - 2004.10.10 22:30:00 - [70]
 

Edited by: BobGhengisKhan on 10/10/2004 22:32:52
If you want to set up a pretty little base that has no function other than impressing your friends that you've built your own little office at a moon in Amarr, then whatever the decision is I wont care.

But if you want these things to be profitable, then competition between component manufactures in eve simply becomes who can buy the most alt accounts to set up bases in yulai

Rod Blaine
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2004.10.10 22:30:00 - [71]
 

Nice post Arch.

I agree partly sice I must admit that RP was gorgotten in my reasoning. Also, I was kinda miffed at the senseless posts made early on in this thread about people having some sort of 'right' to own a pos even if a two week old noob independent player.

I agree with you that there's a case for pos in high sec, altho one could also reason for PIA to just take its RP war into 0.4 as far as pos go. After all, it might even be viable imo to weave an RP event thread around PIE getting Amarr Empire permission to form a three-system eclave of military complex within amarr-protected apce (0.4).. I think you would like that right ?

I also agree that anyone should at least respect the need for pos to be at least somewhat exclusive. The low investment cost ccp decided on makes that hard to realise in practice tho, hence my opinion on the need to involve risk with pos by excluding them from secure space. Empire wars cannot cover this risk aspect, and pos can change hands to altcorps just as well as members can. And also, empire wars dont cover even a small part of the empire corporations and they never will purely because these corporations are not willing to take the risk of starting or getting involved in one. Hence, pos only < 0.5. No risk = no pos for you.

Lastly, i think pos should require teamplay and organisation.
they are not houses or towers liek in Ultima Online where you can store your stuff... Whay (imo) should funstion as static and vulnerable possesions of a corporation which add to the corporations' vulnerability. CCP has most clearly designed this game to incorporate competition from the fields of the ingame market to the ownership or claiming of resources, trade routes and even space.

Tools for this competition were given in the way of the player-only driven market (which promotes competition, as opposed to an AI-driven market), in empire wars, low swecurity space and alts that can be used to spy, steal and deceive. The design makes perfectly clear that ccp did not have a low-risk playing experience in mind when designing the high-end content in this game.

They did add high sec space with rules and boundaries set to protect the young however. They also set skill requirements, high building cost and other ways of adding exclusivity to high end wares in this game. To me, this sounds like they want to keep goals to wark towards in this game. And I honestly believe that they are intent on making the high=-end experiences happen in 0.0 space, be it pvp or npc aimed, production or military, research or mining.

Taking all this into account, I see little reason to allow functioning pos in 0.5+. I agree, it sucks for your RP (to some extent), but the view people ahve of 0.0 space is not correct most of the time, nor is it definitive. I only see 0.0 space come alive and function like the self-governed empires they are if ccp draw more people out of empire. POS in empire does not cumpute.


oh, and please pretty please leave standings out of the whole equasion. I agree they do make sense with regard to POS setting, but as long as standings depends on missions and NPC content only I see alot of people getting hurt by making pos placement standing-dependent.

Rod out

Psychomar
Posted - 2004.10.10 22:33:00 - [72]
 

Quote:
"If you want to set up a pretty little base that has no function other than impressing your friends that you've built your own little office at a moon in Amarr, thats fine."

Im new and would like to join a Minmatar freedom corp someday. I think we should have stuff in empire. Like the PIE guy said some corps have a ton of wars and live in empire. Why should they have to move to 0.0 just for new content? Doesn't make sense to me mate.

BobGhengisKhan
Dashavatara
Posted - 2004.10.10 22:36:00 - [73]
 

Edited by: BobGhengisKhan on 10/10/2004 22:38:57
Because the 1.0s are the systems that have been settled for thousands of years- you think you'd be the first guy to think of setting a mining station on an Amarr moon? the 0.0 and 0.1 systems are the frontier of eve, where it is possible to find a relatively uninhabited area and stake your claim to make some cash

Setting up your base in 0.0 is like staking a claim to a section of Oregon in the 1800s, instead of standing in the middle of London and claiming an acre for yourself. A little late

Archbishop
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2004.10.10 22:39:00 - [74]
 


Quote:
"I agree with you that there's a case for pos in high sec, altho one could also reason for PIA to just take its RP war into 0.4 as far as pos go. After all, it might even be viable imo to weave an RP event thread around PIE getting Amarr Empire permission to form a three-system eclave of military complex within amarr-protected apce (0.4).. I think you would like that right ?"


Thanks for the nice words Rod I appreciate it. I figured no one had taken into account the RP Empire guys in this discussion. Sorry my post was so long I hadn't intended it to be so.

I do agree POS should be PROJECT ORIENTED requiring massive resources and workers to build and maintain. I don't want to see systems with 20 stations in them. I mean that would be insane and can you imagine the lag?

Individuals can certainly play EVE alone and solo it, I did so for months, but they can't expect to get everything an alliance can get.

I look at MINERALS as the big 0.0 advantage. Thats another reason I don't want to see stations in .4 and below only. 0.0 already has the high-end ores. While some do ninja-mine out there and make good money most people stay in empire.

Likewise with POS if they were only allowed in 0.0 - .4 and they eventually included stations (kali?) that had research offices I'd recommend that if they were only in .4 and below that no person in a 0.0 alliance corp could then have research slots in empire space. You either have it or you don't and shouldn't have the benefit of both since the empire people don't have the benefit of both.

Otherwise we're in agreement on many things. PvP is a big part of Eve but not the only part. But theres enough of Eve for everyone. I do want to see POS heavily regulated and expensed so it doesn't become like release here where in two months everyone had a Battleship. At least now with capitalism and scarcity the new T2 ships and heavy cruisers will be super expensive. It's nice to have something to "work toward" and accomplish.

Archbishop
PIE CORPORATION

These are my own views as a longtime EVE player and beta tester and are not the official view of PIE CORPORATION.

Archbishop
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2004.10.10 22:45:00 - [75]
 


Quote:
"Setting up your base in 0.0 is like staking a claim to a section of Oregon in the 1800s, instead of standing in the middle of London and claiming an acre for yourself. A little late"


Yes and no Bob. I almost agree with you on the mining issue as there are many mining stations available in Empire. Really the only real need in Empire is RESEARCH STATIONS. You have to admit there is a shortage there. I'll be the first to confess I have some "300 run" things in my slots because I can't afford to lose them. Even at 9,000 a week now they're honestly with 10x that when you need one.

From a RP sense I know it would be nice to have an HQ in Amarr space. I'd also like to see the Minmatar have an HQ in Pator or somewhere. Something we can protect with sentries and stuff. To enhance the RP aspect of Eve. You must admit with 20+ wars and constant battle we're not exactly "empire carebears". We play Eve a little differently using the storyline but we do have alot of PvP and combat.

Archbishop
PIE CORPORATION

These are my personal views and not the official position of PIE CORPORATION.

S'Daria
Posted - 2004.10.10 23:22:00 - [76]
 

Aren't the moons in 0.0 going to be minded better than those in 0.1-0.4 or even 0.5-0.8?

Since people in 0.1+ systems won't have moons that mine as well, the 0.0 POS can make alot of money selling consumables to them!!! If I were an advocate for 0.0 only POS I would think this would make money for me and be good for us.

I think the largest reason, and it was already mentioned, allowing POS in 0.5+ would mean many would create POS research stations.

Sorry, but I'm not going to put a 500mil BPO into a station in 0.0 that can be detroyed the next day.


drunkenmaster
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2004.10.10 23:40:00 - [77]
 

I wouldn't like to see POS in >.5 space. As was said before, it makes a total mockery of risk/reward, which is one of the things that makes Eve the game it is.

Putting a POS somewhere where the overpowered NPC's will protect you is, frankly, a ridiculous idea. They security systems alone would be next to useless, compared to a concord gank fleet.

0.4-0.1 I can accept, to a point, as these will need some defending, but they should still be very limited in what they can do, or you will be negating the use of 0.0 space.

The one thing in this thread that really makes me want to vomit is soloists who think they should be able to have their own POS.

Are thay f***ing mental? Have they not realised that not everyone can have everything? I don't understand the mindset for this. Maybe they're too used to single player games, and godmodes.

I accepted, in my first week here, that some things would be out of my reach as a beginner. some things would be out of reach as a veteran, and some things would be out of reach, even as a corp member.

But now you get people come in, asking for the best things in the game, like they somehow deserve them.

The phrase that immediately comes to mind is "moon on a stick"

It was the same with battleships last year, people were complaining about the cost, and crying that they couldn't just go out and buy one.

what would the point of the game be if people could have everything they ever desire? Where's the risk? where's the reward, if something isn't hard or risky? I can't see it do anything but hollow the game out.

Being afraid of human interaction should not be an excuse to dumb the game down to such an extent. Some things require teamwork. People have to accept that, unless they team up, such things will be beyond them.

gah. I'm sure the people who disagree with me will either not read, or simply ignore this post. And if by some freak occurence they *do* read it, I doubt they'd be able to comprehend it.

Rod Blaine
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2004.10.11 00:00:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: S'Daria
Aren't the moons in 0.0 going to be minded better than those in 0.1-0.4 or even 0.5-0.8?

Since people in 0.1+ systems won't have moons that mine as well, the 0.0 POS can make alot of money selling consumables to them!!! If I were an advocate for 0.0 only POS I would think this would make money for me and be good for us.

I think the largest reason, and it was already mentioned, allowing POS in 0.5+ would mean many would create POS research stations.

Sorry, but I'm not going to put a 500mil BPO into a station in 0.0 that can be detroyed the next day.




Well S'daria, As I already replied to another post in another thread on the subject, I think that the first thing (besides sentry guns) that will be removed from POS if they ever make it to high sec space will be research modules.

If ccp had wanted more research slots in empire they would just have doubled those in the npc stations. They haven't, and they won't. Scarcity makes for competition, and as I said before ccp are a big fan of competition as far as i've noticed in my year-plus of playing Eve.

So you are not going tom place your 500 mill BS bpo in a station in 0.0 are you ? Well I guess you will then have to pay alot of rent for your Yuali slot to research it there instead. Nothing wrong with that tbh. Just research the cheap stuff in 0.0. Run ammo copies for produciton of ammo in your 0.0 base etc. Afaik research modules wont eb in immediately anyway, altho that info is not completely accurate maybe.

And finally, selling excess consumables from your 0.0 station to people in a 1.0 system ? You been playing Eve at all this year ?

Someone in deep 0.0 will not be very likely to fill his hauler with fecking icecubes to sell in yulai when he can fill it with zydrine too. Unless of course icecubes go for 5K/pound due to all the bear building hugging and caring stations in yulai that they can't run due to not having the consumables.

But I somehow doubt that it'll come that far.

F'nog
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2004.10.11 00:02:00 - [79]
 

Edited by: F'nog on 11/10/2004 00:07:06
The first thing wrong with much of the POS talk so far is that too many people seem to think they're like houses in other games. They are not, and never were intended to be a place where you could keep your stuff and show it off to friends, or even for a corp to hang out and chat. They were designed with several important goals in mind, which I'll get to.

For those saying everybody should be able to have one, anywhere, you need to do some research into how they run. From testing on Shiva, they take HUGE amounts of resources to maintain and keep online. So only large amounts of people will be able to use them regularly. This, IMO, is a good thing. So even if a small corp of 10-20 players has tons of ISK, they won't have the manpower to keep a POS running 23/7, unless they want to devote ALL of their time to supplying it with minerals. This will quickly get repetative and boring for almost everyone, except maybe the people who mine all the time and never do anything else. This is, however, a good reason to allow them in Empire, because if CCP limits the amount of resources in Empire, we won't have to worry about a plethora of POSes showing up everywhere, because only the largest corps, or alliances (not the 0.0 type) of corps will have the manpower to collect the resources from their disparate locations and get them to the POS in the first place. So everybody may be able to build them, but few will actually be able to use them.

That being said, there are many reasons POSes will be useless in 0.5+

Refining:
First there's a ton of refineries already in the central systems, so why build one? If it's to keep NPC corps from taking your share, you're SOL, because the POS refineries have something like a 25% yield, versus 30-50% from NPCs, so you'll be losing more minerals than you're gaining unless you have all the ore skills at V.

Refineries are part of POSes because in 0.0 and the fringe ares of Empire there are few refineries, so even a lower yield is better than flying 10-20 jumps between the ore and the refinery, plus another 10-20 to the factory to build anything with it. So clearly they weren't designed with Empire mining in mind.

Labs:
Yes, there's a HUGE shortage of labs available, and POSes will help this, so that's a good reason to build them in Empire.

BUT POS labs were designed to research new tech that the Empires won't allow. They're really there to research Tech II comps, and Tech III+ eventually. So while you can build them in Empire, the Empires themselves won't let you use them for their intended purpose (Either they simply won't let you do the research, or Concord or the local navy may come and blow up your POS for conducting illegal research). So you'll get some benefit from them in 0.5+, just not as much as you could from 0.0.

Factories:
In some places there are factory issues, but in many parts of Empire I've seen none used at all. So you really don't have reason to build a POS to build with unless you want to do it in Yulai, which already has enough lag as is.

Again, the real benefit here is in 0.0 and the fringe where there aren't many factories.

I guess that's covered the main reasons for POSes, but please add any others that may come up. While I'm not against POSes in 0.5+, except 1.0, which shouldn't have them (and maybe 0.9 too), I don't think that's why CCP designed them. Their biggest advantages come in 0.0, so that's where CCP has them now. They'll probably extend them up to 0.4, and maybe beyond, but they really don't have as much use there, other than for allowing a corp to dock at their "home" base.

The resources involved in them addresses the issue of everyone wanting one. They're simply too resource intensive for everyone to use. You won't get any advantage from them if you're a small Empire corp, because you'll be spending too much time to keep it supplied if you're only building it to be able to say, "I've got a POS."

So to all those clamoring to get their hands on a POS right away, take a moment to think about "what do I want a POS for?" "what will I do with it once I've built it?" and "is it worth all the trouble in upkeep just to have a few small benefits in Empire?"

PS You can't have a POS in a roid belt, because you have to be within range of the moon to mine it to get the resources to run it. Plus it would remove all risk from the game being able to station a bunch of sentries there to kill all the NPCs in 0.5+, which really aren't that had to kill in the first place. If you want to mine without risk, stick to 0.9+, and accept that the rewards are lower when there's little to no risk.

Norsten
Posted - 2004.10.11 00:17:00 - [80]
 

woah too much reading on this post. the game does what the game does, just let it play out.

MaiLina KaTar
Posted - 2004.10.11 00:17:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: "Maule"
Are you suggesting that Starbases should only be afforded to those in Corps or Alliances? <-- I would say yes becurse pos are expensive to run, aquire alot of mining whose ice feilds to get the heravy water you need to run it. you need all kinda stuff to make your starbase working.. and tbh. no one can do that alone. so yes.. its for medium to large corps and alliances.. small corps could probely do it aswell but it would aquire alot of work...


No mate. It's merely a question of how you scale your POS. Low amount of modules = low upkeep.


S'Daria
Posted - 2004.10.11 01:40:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: F'nog
Refining:
First there's a ton of refineries already in the central systems, so why build one?
I agree. However there are few systems with no stations at all in Empire.

Originally by: F'nog
Labs:
Yes, there's a HUGE shortage of labs available, and POSes will help this, so that's a good reason to build them in Empire.

BUT POS labs were designed to research new tech that the Empires won't allow. They're really there to research Tech II comps, and Tech III+ eventually. So while you can build them in Empire, the Empires themselves won't let you use them for their intended purpose (Either they simply won't let you do the research, or Concord or the local navy may come and blow up your POS for conducting illegal research). So you'll get some benefit from them in 0.5+, just not as much as you could from 0.0.
Where are you getting this information? I not aware the CONCORD would limit Tech II or III research. I know they will stifle contraband - is Tech II and Tech III considered contraband?

Please give us a link or a dev chat reference where you heard this. I would be very interested in learning more about what you bring up here.


I don't understand why people want to limit new content to those unwilling to exit 0.5+ systems?

You can still declare war on them so their POS'es can still be destroyed.

The moons will not be as profitable so why have any angst against 0.5+ carebears?

POS are expensive, let them learn that it'll not be profitable and be a huge money sink.

Why do you care so much to limit their game?



KamiCrazy
Caldari
Xoth Inc
Firmus Ixion
Posted - 2004.10.11 01:45:00 - [83]
 

I can honestly say that in all likelyhood starbases will probably by available in 0.7-0.5.

However it is also very likely they are going to be extremely crippled.

So it's probably in all likelyhood to be utterly pointless to build a starbase in empire space.

S'Daria
Posted - 2004.10.11 01:59:00 - [84]
 

Hopefully there will be an economic reason to have POS in 0.5+ systems, even with the "rent".

I just hope CCP won't alianate the carebears in 0.5+ space with this new content. I believe, from the dev chat, that they only said there would be a 25% chance of that at the time Shiva was release, but post-Shiva they would add it.

I'm sure the carebears won't mind waiting a month or two while POS issues get hammered out. They said there's a 95% chance that POS will be in 0.1-0.4 systems.

/shrug

I wish the carebears would come out into 0.0...would make for a fuller game, but to each his own.


DarkMatter
Sintered Sanity
Posted - 2004.10.11 02:08:00 - [85]
 

Edited by: DarkMatter on 11/10/2004 02:11:10
If POS's are not allowed in Empire Space, that will be the final straw for someone who has been playing this game from day two...

I've had enough of CCP dangling carrots in front of me, only to get dissappointed by the broken promises yet again.

POS's should not only be for mega corps and alliances, if that turns out to be the case, I will find some other game or hobby...

I'm sick and tired of CCP catoring to the full time PvP crowd, it's disgusting, and makes me feel like they don't want me to play their game, they don't want diversity & true specialization... They don't want my subscription money...

And no, no one can have my stuff, you can all **** off!

And especially The Miner, he's a little prick!

F'nog
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2004.10.11 02:17:00 - [86]
 

S'Daria, I read it in an update or chat somewhere awhile back, like March or April, but I'll post a link as soon as I can find it, and remember which site it was on.

Archbishop
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2004.10.11 02:20:00 - [87]
 

Quote:
"Putting a POS somewhere where the overpowered NPC's will protect you is, frankly, a ridiculous idea. They security systems alone would be next to useless, compared to a concord gank fleet."


Drunkenmaster (hi btw).

They wont be protected by the NPC's in a war situation. That was my point regarding "risk". There is risk even in Empire space. Look at my corp with 20+ wars. In fact I was blown up (again) about 45 minutes ago by a Rupture (poor Maller). Even using game mechanics there is a TON of risk in Empire.

Perhaps the solution is put sentry guns by POS? That way only corps / alliances at war with you can actually attack you? Isn't that the way it is in real life? You get attacked? You declare war? You fight til someone is wasted?

I do think this "you can't declare war until someone is killed in 24 hours" deal is stupid imo. But I do believe war should be declared (even in 0.0) before people can just run around ganking everything in sight.

As for mercenary corps they could also "declare war" and attack. So they're not losing anything.

The only real people who are affected by this are the people who live and work in Empire only for whatever reason. They'd have to completely change their gameplay and maybe even leave their corps and friends if they wanted to be involved in a POS. I just don't agree with that.

I do agree they should be VERY expensive to build and maintain. Small corps and individuals should not be able to build them realistically. HOWEVER if a small corp wanted to join 10 other small corps and form an alliance and build one THAT would be acceptable.

But they're not meant to be "houses" the other poster was EXACTLY on target with that.

Archbishop
PIE CORPORATION

These comments are my own as a longtime player and beta tester. They do not represent the views of PIE CORPORATION.

Tripp Orsam
Dragonstar
Posted - 2004.10.11 02:32:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: TheMiner
I see you are a nice person and will therefore change my tone.


That would probably be best, for someone that is quite new to the game you certainly have a big mouth, which is not a bad thing as long as you keep things constructive, personally i would have not called the original poster a 'noob' and i think that the forums (and tranquility) could use less people like this.

Also I'd like to know what your startegy is for a spawn like 1 battleship and 3 scrambling intercepters (not to fight them, just to get the hell of of there), because as far as i know once you warp in there isnt even enough time to align for warp let alone escape (in a cruiser). Or perhaps you were very lucky and when you encoutered this type of spawn you were very far from them and had time to escape, just curious. Bottom line is its not a good idea hunting 0.0 in a cruiser unless you dont mind losing ships quite often, or perhaps some 0.0 systems just dont spawn battleships/inties i dont know.

F'nog
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2004.10.11 03:03:00 - [89]
 

Archbishop reiterated a good point I made. If you're a small corp and want to build a POS, find a few allies in Empire and work together with them then share the POS. It'll save a lot of work and give you the benefit of one. It's all about teamwork, which is why 1, or a few players shouldn't be able to just get one. You'll make some nice friends and have more fun doing so. It's easier for the big Alliances and corps to get them, but that's how it should be; they've got the manpower to operate it efficiently without (hopefully) it driving them all crazy.

S'Daria
Posted - 2004.10.11 06:38:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: F'nog
Archbishop reiterated a good point I made. If you're a small corp and want to build a POS, find a few allies in Empire and work together with them then share the POS. It'll save a lot of work and give you the benefit of one. It's all about teamwork, which is why 1, or a few players shouldn't be able to just get one. You'll make some nice friends and have more fun doing so. It's easier for the big Alliances and corps to get them, but that's how it should be; they've got the manpower to operate it efficiently without (hopefully) it driving them all crazy.
Where exactly would a group of Empire corps put a POS in 0.0? I mean there are alot of alliances out there...and as far as I'm aware there isn't any "safe" 0.0 space...so these Empire corps will get their arse handed to them.

You know it and I know it...1 experience player could probably take out like 5 'Empire noobs'...

Most 'Empire noobs' don't even know how to use their ships/modules effectively, let along work together.

It'll be a slaughter.



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