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Leno
Turbulent
Anarchy Empire
Posted - 2004.10.09 23:44:00 - [31]
 

Here is the main point... you dont really need POS in empire as they have plenty of NPC stations. Also, alot of the stuff required to run a POS are in 0.0 (ice fields and such) at least i think. Anyway, its just that there is no reason for them, and u can expect people who see and find that you own POS and are carebears will simply only find a way to declare war on you to attack it.

TheMiner
Posted - 2004.10.09 23:56:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Buggsi
wont NPC rats attack POS?

I can see uses for POS other then status symbols. Plenty of spots in 0.5-07 space for a refineries or storage, in systems without any stations at all.


NPCs prolly will... if they even spawn at the moon though. So prolly not.

The reason POS are so valuable in 0.0 space is that you casn have a defensive structure to operate from (other than just the few player ran stations out there) and a REFINERY/extra factory/lab slots.

What good is mining Arknor if you have to transfer it in an indy 27 jumps to the nearest station --- through 0.0 space !!

Now.. imagine building a POS in the same system as the Arknor (or bistot, or crokite, or new ores to be introduced). Now people will actually be able to A) have true "homes" and B) have corps and operations wherever they want -- meaning great potential for money making and cooler fighting :)

Pesadilla
Caldari
Posted - 2004.10.10 00:03:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Buggsi

Sad


why do u even start posting if u have no idea what ur talking about?
u should really first read about the stuff u want to discuss

or did ur "math" fail again?

Hakera
Freelance Unincorporated
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2004.10.10 00:13:00 - [34]
 

Eve is not a single player game, not all features in eve will be possible to accomplish by yourself. Shiva is very much aimed towards the need for teamwork as the risk and reward is both higher. As for not being able to survive in 0.0 with 2 million skillpoints, that is a load of rubbish tbh and only a personal choice you have made to avoid low sec space.

If you choose to hidaway in empire space then you choose to miss out on some features of the game, its that simple!

Kel Shek
Posted - 2004.10.10 00:31:00 - [35]
 

remember that the situation on the test is not neccesarily how it will be in TQ....

where to start on my 2 cents worth...

lets see... for starters... in TQ a control tower likely will cost at least the value of a BS to build initially.

I expect that POS WILL be buildable in .4 and below. but not .5+.

while from what I have seen so far in testing, I doubt in most cases POS will be worthwhile to have even in .1-.4. (if you have like.. a really good, really empty system, that has hemo/hedbergite, and is someplace you can farm, thats 2 jumps from any NPC stations... sure. but if theres an NPC station within 1 jump... think about it.)

to put it simply... at 2M or less skill points, your STILL just starting. your not a "n00b" anymore... but be honest with yourself... theres still the vast majority of the game's content ahead of you.

Quote:
I think POS should be available to anyone new or old in the game and buildable in all security systems.
no offense, but this is simply not well thought out. do you expect BS's to be cheap, and easy to train for? POS are a goal BEYOND the battleship... intended for a GROUP of people to work on...

Quote:
There are many ppl who play this game in a casual and social way, not PvP.. remember that please.. and will simply quit if POS are only for certain ppl in the game. I'd support doing the same.
is this your first MMO? thats the only explanation I can come up with for this mindset.

in this variety of game, the bleeding edge content is for the hardcore. OR for people who casually associate/assist those who are hardcore. if your a casual social miner in a corp of mostly hardcore people, sure, you might get acess to POS. but to put it simply, a corp of say a dozen people who each are on <15 hours a week, CANNOT, and to put it frankly, SHOULD NOT be able to support a POS without essentially spending proportionally, a huge amount of time on it.

its a GOAL. would it be meaningful to have the best thing in the game, if it were easy to get and maintain?

Quote:
Second...please post a link to where it says Starbases will only be 0.0 and 0.1 space. If this is true...I certainly won't be staying around.

currently on the test server, they are only permitted in 0.0. it was thought at first it was only .1 and below. but I'm PRETTY sure they have said they expect it to be avaliable in .4 down before the end of testing, or something to that effect.

Quote:
Some people who play this game must suck. I have less than 1.3 million skill points and ive been hutning rats in 0.0 in my cruiser for weeks. The only thing I cant kill where I am is battleships.
some people have a knack for these things. when I was at around that, I could pwn any NPC rats in empire that I'd come across, in my thorax, but when I tried going into 0.0... well I got pwned. some people seem to have trouble with low sec rats, even at that point. honestly I see no explanation for it, but seems thats how it is.

TheMiner, lol, your first post on this thread is the wisest I've seen on these boards in a long time, if not ever. (you also seem to be damn good at this game)

Quote:
I tried NPC hunting before with my thorax in 0.5 space. There is nearly zero ISK to be maded compared to mining, I dont understand.
.5 space, I agree. .3 space, or so, where you get into cruisers, is WORLDS better. better loot, better bountys, and alot more interesting. til you get to the point where you can swat them like flies, but easier.

Quote:
Is this game for the masses of ppl or just certain ppl who are into only one playing style like player killers?? Don't we have the choice to specialize? I know many ppl who love just mining and building ships, etc.
sure, but you have to accept the consequences of said descisions. if you limit your skills and general play to ONLY mining in .5+, you simply WILL NOT, EVER make as much money even as someone mining in .4, let alone someone mining in .2(hedberg/hemo) or 0.0(all the super-good ores) and you will either NOT be able to afford some things, or at least not very quickly be able to afford them.

honestly looking at level 4 agents... when shiva hits, I'll likely become far more involved in agents. my first level 4 gent mission got me like 2.5M total. while it took me a long time to do it... to put it simply, my Battleship was not loaded for it, I'd never faced other BS's before, and I barely finished it. when I go after it with my megathron that I'm nearly finished building... and speculating on numbers... I would expect on average it'd probably be 5x as profitable, in bountys and agent payment alone, as high sec mining.

a POS is NOT(intended to be) a "home" for a single person. I'm expecting that it WILL be possible, if difficult, for one person, who stays low key, and doesn't make enemys, and is well off, to build and maintain a POS. but thats like... 3% or less of the server population.

long winded.

MrBinary
Minmatar
Binary Systems
Posted - 2004.10.10 00:43:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: MrBinary on 10/10/2004 00:50:29
Originally by: Focht


so youre saying eve was not designed as a teamgame ?
true or not:
a) a team can mine saver and more then a single player (with a single account)
b) a team gets skill boni from gangs (leadership skills)
c) a team can help ppl grow faster by borrowing isk/ giving tips / helping out with missing skills (pe5 is the way or good refining skills)
d) a team can do more damage or hunt protect better then solos

all the above in my book make a teamgame. You dont have to, thats true but its the easier road and the game supports it (simply because if players get to know each other and form teams they form a community) and unlike you apparently, ppl enjoy playing with friends (some they brought in from rl) and others who made them in eve.
The point of this thread is not affordability or who those pos are for. The person posting has 2 mil sp so is considered new, compared it to a level 1 char in diabolo or any other game and he wants to use gear which is for the more experienced players.
You think with 8 mil isk he will be able to pay and keep a station running ? i hope not, otherwise the stations will be cheaper then a friggin bs.
Stations should be a symbol (more worth then a bs etc) and should be "in danger". from the RP side, why would the empires allow ppl plastering stations all over their space, while they and concord protect it for free ?
Same as conquerable stations and t2 goods they are for the advanced players and for those who work out on the frontier, youre not telling me that large t2 guns will be for starter players will you ?


You have some good points, and I agree with alot of what you suggest. I am glad you kinda see what I'm getting at though, as well. I agree that joining a corp or alliance can help some players, I certainly don't think it's a requisite to having fun, and I don't think EvE was designed as a 'team' game so much as a MMOG. *edit* You make the assumption that I don't like playing with friends...Why? Because I'm not in a corp? Because I'm not in an Alliance? Because I freelance? C'mon...that's simply not true. I have many valued friends in this game. While all of those reasons you give for being in a corp are valid...none of them are impossible without. You can most certainly still have and make new friends, and do everything else you mention without a corp. *edit*

Of cource I do not think the original poster would be able to buy or upkeep a Spacestation at his current level, I never suggested that. He was primarily concerned with the systems these stations could be placed in.

You also hinted at Spacestations being plastered all over Empire. I think if you look at the current trend with CCP and the skill sets and requirements for various things...as well as costs involved...this really should not be a real concern. I think that the skills required for Spacestations, and the costs involved will keep most players from attaining that goal for a long time anyhow. I seriously doubt we will be seeing SpaceStations 'plastered everywhere' for a very long time to come. Not only that...I think we can all agree that EvE is truly a grand place...there is more than ample room.

You also hinted at Concord protecting said stations for free. Personally I don't think it's been decided one way or another. But another poster suggested that there should be a 'tax' or something to that effect. That would be a logical assumption...and not completely unreasonable I would think. If someone has enough ISK to buy him or herself a 'home'...then paying a monthly 'tax' should be no problem.

And your final comment where you ask if I think Large Tech2 Guns should be for starter players. Of cource not. I never wanted to give the impression that I thought SpaceStations should be for newer players either. I only found the notion that they should be limited to volitile space absurd.

Regards,
MrBinary

Focht
Destructive Influence
Posted - 2004.10.10 00:56:00 - [37]
 

i based my evaluation of pos and their high amount on the last dev chat where it was hinted that stationparts would be common goods and not like t2 bpo restricted playerowned goods but instead npc produced parts.
Furthermore it was hinted that the price for single components would be around battleship tier 2 costs per part (nothing deffinate just what i remember).

I find this price and the possibility of npc amounts as my base for "plastered all over empire".

My personal view should allow 0.0 - 0.4 locations. As in those systems no mobile concord forces are around.
In my opinion players should be forced to defend their POS properly. Empire Pos would limit that.

On a sidenote, just based on guessing, i think it will be a biatch to maintain a station on your own, imagine hauling all the stuff there and running it 24-7. Tho it could be fun.

Lets just hope there is no insurance for those things :P

Team or not, if you wanna drive the ferrari pay for the ferrari

Korth
Amarr
Serenity Technology
Posted - 2004.10.10 01:24:00 - [38]
 

Empire space needs to stay free range. We don't need no wire.

XSKULLX
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2004.10.10 02:02:00 - [39]
 

there is tons of isk to be made without mining. my 1st account was a billionaire in 2 months. of course i had help from a event that i got a bpc of the cloaking device but i had to spend 90 - 95 mil isk to get a batch of jove parts to get that bpc but still for 2 months in game i did hella good. now it has just under 6 mil sps and i can do anything i want to do in game except mining as i havent mined more than 12 hours total in 6 months of being in game. this account is going to sit in station for 6 months to a year and learn all he can and then ill use him for something

DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
Posted - 2004.10.10 04:43:00 - [40]
 

POS should not be anywhere in empire space. Period. They are territorial conquest and expansion tools, by putting them in empire space you're trying to undermine the control each faction has on its space.

NPCs take a % value from the amount you refine, they make money off you. Highway gate tolls are a future possibility, so is taxed empire mining. So then why should empires let you build your own base and refine for free while getting all the protection high security systems have to offer?

This game, whether you choose to play solo or in a team is still all about risk vs reward. And those who risk it all are those playing the end game of EVE. The limitations of skillpoints is a poor excuse. You lack experience, and the willingness to get said experience.. Therefore why should you be playing any high end content in EVE if you haven't bothered to stand up to a new level of risk?

People who ask for POS in empire is the most vivid example of carebearism I can think of. There is absolutley no reason to put a base in empire other than you not wanting your base to get shot up.

Dufas
Amarr
freelancers inc
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2004.10.10 05:26:00 - [41]
 

this discussion is stupid from the beginning...first..why would u want to build POS in empire in the first place when they have stations in just about every system you can use for free...POS are for .0 where stations are few and far between ... sometimes 1 or 2 in an entire region ... and if your playing by yourself with 2mill skill pts you sure as hell wont be able to afford to build a pos or have the skills to own it or defend it...best bet is to join an established .0 corp and stop whinning .... ugh

S'Daria
Posted - 2004.10.10 06:43:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Dufas
first..why would u want to build POS in empire in the first place when they have stations in just about every system you can use for free


1. Lab slots
2. There are systems with no stations in Empire
3. A place to call their own
4. They have alot of money and want to spend it on something
5. They would like the challenge of the economics to keep it going
6. Its fun for the carebears
7. They want it even if its costs alot - that should be enough for paying customers to get it from CCP


/shrug

Alianating a entire section of the populace because they don't like PvP (I don't know why, its fun), is not good PR and its not good business.

You guys shouldn't be complaining about POS in Empire because they'll be able to moon mine (even if its inferior than in 0.0), and help keep the prices of consumables lower for your stations!!!


S'Daria
Posted - 2004.10.10 06:45:00 - [43]
 

Additionally they might come to 0.0 more often to sell/buy consumables.


S'Daria
Posted - 2004.10.10 07:06:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Eve-I Dev Chat
Hakera> YaRisse> Will it be possible to setup Player Owned Stations within 0.1-0.4 Regions?

Oveur> We had this discussion just today, and 0.1-0.4 is a 95% yes

Oveur> if we can sort out the rest of the quirks associated with it, then it's in, cause we wan't to

Oveur> and at this point in time, I wouldn't exclude 0.5-0.7 in exchange for a hefty "rent", where you buy the "moon mining rights" from the sovereignty

Oveur> but these would be severely limited in what structures you could deploy there and a number of things would not be possible at all

Oveur> I'd say ... 25% on those, at least in november release


S'Daria
Posted - 2004.10.10 08:01:00 - [45]
 

Would you put a BPO in a POS in 0.0?

Unless you were very sure of yourself and your corp/alliance.

I think this is why many carebears want to be able to make a POS in 0.5+.

Myko
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2004.10.10 08:18:00 - [46]
 

in my opinion, there should be no pos in 0.5-1.0, as these systems are completely safe and the risk/reward is totally screwed. As for low sec empire space, you should have to pay fees (taxes, rent whatever) to the empires for establishing a base.

And for everyone that complains about not being able to do 'xxx' solo, there needs to be content for groups (i.e. corps and alliances) otherwise might as well make eve single player. If shiva fails, so does eve...CCP had better get it right.

Zyrla Bladestorm
Minmatar
Foundation
R0ADKILL
Posted - 2004.10.10 08:24:00 - [47]
 

At least as it stands on singularity, moon mining produces materials used in making construction components, used for tech 2+ items.
The ice products used to keep POS operational are produced from mining ice fields .. we dont yet know where they will be (though the shiva mining info says only indys will be able to mine them due to blocks of ice being huge)

pardux
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2004.10.10 08:39:00 - [48]
 

Crying or Very sad POS should be in 0.5-0.8 many people never go to 0.0 and we need POS-es to Razz

Kalle Port
Gallente
Interim inc.
Posted - 2004.10.10 08:46:00 - [49]
 

POS cannot be destroyed in empire space if they can activate those shields that stop everything and only require an upkeep to keep them active. Since there is no way to starve out the POS from consumables.

All they need to do is use alts that are not in the corp at war to supply the POS and then the empire war is as useless as ever.

Joshua Calvert
Caldari
Rule One
Posted - 2004.10.10 09:13:00 - [50]
 

Edited by: Joshua Calvert on 10/10/2004 17:17:38
The only player-owned structure that should be available outside of 0.1-0.0 space is a moon miner.

It's use would be restricted as follows:

You can only use it to mine a moon of a planet which is orbitted by a station owned by a corporation/faction which holds your corporation in high regard (i.e you can mine Moon III of the planet orbitted by Caldari Navy Assembly Planet if they hold you at a standing higher than 9).

Standings above 9 would reduce the tax they place on the minerals the higher your standing goes.

It would also only be available in 0.2 to 0.4 systems.

S'Daria
Posted - 2004.10.10 09:17:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Kalle Port
POS cannot be destroyed in empire space if they can activate those shields that stop everything and only require an upkeep to keep them active.
Corp wars can destroy a POS.
Originally by: Kalle Port
Since there is no way to starve out the POS from consumables.
With a corp war you can put the station in locked mode and hit them economically.
Originally by: Kalle Port
All they need to do is use alts that are not in the corp at war to supply the POS and then the empire war is as useless as ever.
Still costs alot of money to keep the POS going if every time you go there you put the station into lockdown mode.


Buggsi
Posted - 2004.10.10 10:16:00 - [52]
 

Edited by: Buggsi on 10/10/2004 10:17:45
Never mind.

Only being able to orbit moons will make not make a lick of difference in 0.5 space and above, since the biggest gap i've come across of systems without a station+refinery is 1 system.

Oh well. I figured they could be deployable in asteroid belts for some reason. I DONT see why they shouldnt be able to. Why cant those stations be put in asteroid belts? I mean an orbit is an orbit, around a star or around a planet or moon.


And who said I wanted to own a POS as all by myself? I dont even mine by myself. You need a minimum of 1 hauler player for 4 miner players to run efficiently.

Myko
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2004.10.10 10:54:00 - [53]
 

the reason they arent going to be allowed to be deployed in asteroid belts is that they are designed for 0.0 to be used to fill the need for local stations Rolling Eyes, not as a new way of making risk-free profit.


Ulendar
M34t p0p s1ckle Manufacturing
Privateer Alliance
Posted - 2004.10.10 11:00:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Buggsi
well, you know. I dont mind PVP, only problem I see is that it takes mounds of battleships to do it in 0.0 space. What about smaller corp battles in empire space? Wouldnt that be exciting too? Destroyer and frigate fleets fighting over POS in empire space would be fun and less expensive too.


Why do you assume that battles in 0.0 space involve hoardes of battleships and only battleships? Have you ever taken part in a real battle? Have you ever BEEN to 0.0 space even? I can assure you that battles involve cruisers and especially frigates atleast asmuch as it involves battleships. Yes battleships ARE used in battles and yes they do present a clear advantage when used right, that does not however that it must be YOU in that battleship. And no that does not imidiatly reduce you to just fodder....although if you want thats a role you can fill and it is just as needed as any other.

To not assume things you have no facts on. Instead try it and form your opinion based on personal experiences (note: flying through a couple 0.0 system and then getting podded by a pirate is NOT trying).


Quote:
Let's not be condescending...I am well aware of what 'multiplayer' means...and it most certainly does not mean "team". Multiplayer means more than one...or not 'singleplayer'. It means that more than one person can experience the world created by the developers, at the same time. It does not mean that 'teams' or 'guilds' or whatever you want to call them, have to be created and/or joined in order to experience the game. That is an assumption you have subscribed to yourself.

You can do anything and accomplish anything in this and other MMORPGS being a solo player. Myself and many others are prime examples of this fact. Your assertion that being in a corp affords you better chances at being successful is flawed. A better chance at what? Are you in a corp? Are you better off than I? Are you suggesting that Starbases should only be afforded to those in Corps or Alliances?


In multyplayer...which is what EVE is. There are several modes. Cooperative, deathmach, team deathmach, objective ect.

In ANY other mode then cooperative where the enemie is an AI, you are engaging yourself in competition with other players. IF you are a freelancer who is a miner then you are putting yourself up for competition with others. Everytime you sell minerals on the market you fill an order that could have bene filled by someone else. Every time you build a ship and sell it you take away someone elses opertunity to a sale. Hell, far fetch but every roid you mine is one someone else can mine anymore (but there is plenty so nm that).

How do you perpose to compete with other players YET never truely interact with them?! It sounds contridictory and thats exactly what it is. Perhaps you didnt notice but you ARE playing in MP mode and you are competing with other. Does it matter that you do not specifically FIRE at someone and then interact with them in unfriendly manners? Is that what mp is to you? Surely you are kidding...

Deploying a player owned station in a low sec system of your choice with the intent to 'mine the place out' is most definitly competing with other players! Did you also have in mind of asking refining and docking fees to people? Lucrative no?! Surely you must see that you are interacting with others by doing this? What happens if i build a base right next to yours and charge slightly cheaper fees? Laughing

Sosona
Posted - 2004.10.10 13:54:00 - [55]
 

I am playing eve since nearly the release and i am a rather rich freelancer. Currently i am waiting for POS as a potential ISK sink since there is absolutely no content for me to use this amount of ISK otherwise. My intention of a POS in 0.5+ isnt to make ISK, but to actually get rid of some Wink

So if it costs 1 billion or 2 or even 5 billion isk to build a POS in 0.5+ and using it barely pays the rent, thats fine for me. But building any POS below 0.5 is very pointless for me or a small(er) group. It will just drag some alliance or pirate group to it who will quickly kill it.

Make it incredibly expensive, restrict it with requiring high skills or a high standing to the faction in which region it is placed and restrict it to 5 or 10 for each faction if its needed, but please make it available in 0.5+.

It is nice that POS in 0.0 are nice new content for alliances, but since the local/map and scanner changes in shiva basically make trading runs into hostile 0.0 pointless for me, it would be nice to have _some_ new content to look for (I dont like agent missions and they also seem to go into the multiplayer/group direction).

POS in 0.5+ would make a nice base for training or helping out new players, no matter if they are profitable for the owner or not Smile

S'Daria
Posted - 2004.10.10 16:05:00 - [56]
 

Sosona's post pretty much sums it up.

Joshua Calvert
Caldari
Rule One
Posted - 2004.10.10 16:35:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Sosona
I am playing eve since nearly the release and i am a rather rich freelancer. Currently i am waiting for POS as a potential ISK sink since there is absolutely no content for me to use this amount of ISK otherwise. My intention of a POS in 0.5+ isnt to make ISK, but to actually get rid of some Wink

So if it costs 1 billion or 2 or even 5 billion isk to build a POS in 0.5+ and using it barely pays the rent, thats fine for me. But building any POS below 0.5 is very pointless for me or a small(er) group. It will just drag some alliance or pirate group to it who will quickly kill it.

Make it incredibly expensive, restrict it with requiring high skills or a high standing to the faction in which region it is placed and restrict it to 5 or 10 for each faction if its needed, but please make it available in 0.5+.

It is nice that POS in 0.0 are nice new content for alliances, but since the local/map and scanner changes in shiva basically make trading runs into hostile 0.0 pointless for me, it would be nice to have _some_ new content to look for (I dont like agent missions and they also seem to go into the multiplayer/group direction).

POS in 0.5+ would make a nice base for training or helping out new players, no matter if they are profitable for the owner or not Smile


If having so much isk bothers you, I'm willing to be a martyr and let you give some to me to take care of.

Rod Blaine
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2004.10.10 17:12:00 - [58]
 

lol

I read up and until someone said he wanted a pos in high sec space to protect him against npc's when he was mining.

That's where all hope of this thread ever going anywhere got throw out the window here.

For godssakes FIRST YOU READ AND LEARN ABOUT WHAT YOU CRY ABOUT, ONLY AFTER THAT YOU CRY.

halfwit noob

And to those people that are crying for their little mining station in yulai, just for the fun of having one... Try and get an idea of what this game is about before crying about not every damn thing being availiable to you. It's not like you could even use a pos btw, since that requires a damn lot of skills you dont have. Team the **** up and start acting like you like a challenge, cause if you don't you really need to go and look elsewhere for your fun.

Kretin Arnon
Amarr
Path of the Immortals
Posted - 2004.10.10 17:17:00 - [59]
 

Edited by: Kretin Arnon on 10/10/2004 17:19:44
I can only accept POS to be placed in low sec if it's somehow connected with positive standing with the faction who claims the area. Actually I would like to see this rule include 0.0 too. (Why would the Gurista alow enemies to put up structures right in their domain any way?).

Rod Blaine
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2004.10.10 17:20:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: S'Daria
Sosona's post pretty much sums it up.


Sosona is a rare exception and not the type of player this game caters towards.

If Sosona has been playing since release and has not found any other interesting thing to do in Eve except trading and getting rich off it pos are gonna be boring to the max within a month for her.

One more time: all repeat after me:
"this is a game heavily skewed towards teamplay, that is fine"
"this is a game that requires some imagination to have fun in, that is fine too"
"this is a game that present very possibly the steepest challenge to a new player, and that is why i am not playing swg"
"I like teamwork, challengesm, at least a basic level of risk and competition between players"

Please repeat this to yourself 500 times and if you still feel like crying about pos not being availiable in high sec space go dowload swg.

//end rant


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