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Draeklore
Unknown-Entity
Maru Ka'ge
Posted - 2009.08.05 23:25:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Draeklore on 05/08/2009 23:26:16
Hey everyone, I am a 5.6 SP pilot trained mostly in Minmatar ships and I've been using a Maelstrom to run level 4 missions. I've been successful thus far making quite a bit more isk than doing level 3's though completing some missions does take quite a while. My question is, am I better off crosstraining to use Caldari ships (Raven in particular) to run missions in or just continue to work on my Large Projectile and Minnie BS training?

Would take 11 days to get Caldari BS 4 and about 5 more days to get Cruise Missile 4.

EDIT: Also I have my shield and support skills at 4 or 5.

Elric Redeye
Ex Coelis
Posted - 2009.08.05 23:57:00 - [2]
 

You'll probably get poll-like results. But I was in your shoes, almost exactly (Min BS IV, LP IV, T2 drones with DI to III, T2 tank mods, running a Maelstrom with 3x gyros & 2x TE's in low), and decided to try the Caldari ships for missions. IMO, much easier and faster. I kept a log of mission times to compare. The lowly Drake BC ran L4's 25-35% slower than the Maelstrom and didn't have enough DPS for one or two NPC's (e.g. last one in Vengeance, Guristas). Otherwise it is much safer and easier to run (passive tank & HML's).

When I got to Caldari BS IV and Cruise IV I bypassed the regular Raven and jumped into the CNR (there is no faction Maelstrom to compare). Total mission times started out slightly faster than the Mael and got absurdly lower as I pimped the CNR (CN BCS's & launchers). Cruise missiles are easier to run than Large arty and reach out with more oomph at absurd ranges (with sensor booster & range script) in appropriate missions. Target painter and Rigor rig bump damage against smaller targets. Active tank still has to be managed (I'm not THAT pimped in the CNR yet) but I find it adequate to the task if I re-fit for each mission.

Worth it? Heck yes, for me.

Meths
The Big Gay Animal Zoo
Posted - 2009.08.06 00:04:00 - [3]
 

yes

DeathRavens
Posted - 2009.08.06 00:09:00 - [4]
 

Hell yes (retrained from Gallente Dominix to Raven...)

JoeBear770
Amarr
Faster Muffins
Posted - 2009.08.06 00:39:00 - [5]
 

Yes! I am an Amarr BS pilot cross-trained to the Raven.

Draeklore
Unknown-Entity
Maru Ka'ge
Posted - 2009.08.06 01:39:00 - [6]
 

Alright thanks for the replies everyone. I believe I will go for it. In the mean time I can keep running missions in the Mael as its pretty safe although pretty slow.

Alberico DeSandre
Posted - 2009.08.06 01:59:00 - [7]
 

Same situation as the opening poster, i'm very comfortable with a navy mega right now in level 4s, doing them pretty fast. I even fly the thing in the AE bonus room and warp out only one time to refit guns.

I just wonder if i'm missing out on something even faster and more efficient. I've got a raven+golem plan set in evemon right now that i'm following. Based on the replies here it seems like it's worth the time, and at the very least it'l get me familiar with a new weapon and ship which will be interesting.

Psychotic Maniac
Caldari
Head Shrinkers
Posted - 2009.08.06 02:40:00 - [8]
 

although i never used a mael for missions. i would recommend getting your gun skills higher b4 you decide to cross train for raven. i use & prefer nightmare over cnr. lasers eat up missions much faster than missiles. i presume a good matar pilot with decent gun skills would agree. guns ruleExclamation

Irdia Freelancer
Posted - 2009.08.06 02:59:00 - [9]
 

Large missiles are slow. Slow gives less dps. Longer range guns are slower than short range.

I fly amarr so only have amarr ship skills yet. Take an Abaddon in amarr space which fires in under 5 secs doing em/therm vs a missile doing either em or therm which is much slower. A raven may be easy to fly, have choice of damage types, but its rate of fire is comparitively terrible. The Amarrs have the longest range close weapons with the pulse lasers, the blasters are shorter with the autocannons the shortest. On the other side the lasers have the shortest falloff with blasters longer and autocannons the longest. This means I can get away with pulse lasers with no range bonus (or chasing the npc) on the ship easier than say a min using autocannons.

For up close, the min autocannons will out damage artillery. The drawback is they are very short range. Best to get a ship with range bonuses if runing min autocannons. Even runing min artillery I found its not so bad even with no min ship or ship bonuses to artillery.

I do wonder about how a rocket equiped with defenders ship could perform against a raven/golem. It has the ability to fire off quickly as much as 4-5 time in the time a raven fires 1x, ie 1 rocket turret may work well for point defence. Looking at the skills, should still be able to defend up to over 100km. Its something I'll have to try sometime.

Psychotic Maniac
Caldari
Head Shrinkers
Posted - 2009.08.06 03:12:00 - [10]
 

Question
Originally by: Irdia Freelancer
Large missiles are slow. Slow gives less dps. Longer range guns are slower than short range.

I fly amarr so only have amarr ship skills yet. Take an Abaddon in amarr space which fires in under 5 secs doing em/therm vs a missile doing either em or therm which is much slower. A raven may be easy to fly, have choice of damage types, but its rate of fire is comparitively terrible. The Amarrs have the longest range close weapons with the pulse lasers, the blasters are shorter with the autocannons the shortest. On the other side the lasers have the shortest falloff with blasters longer and autocannons the longest. This means I can get away with pulse lasers with no range bonus (or chasing the npc) on the ship easier than say a min using autocannons.

For up close, the min autocannons will out damage artillery. The drawback is they are very short range. Best to get a ship with range bonuses if runing min autocannons. Even runing min artillery I found its not so bad even with no min ship or ship bonuses to artillery.

I do wonder about how a rocket equiped with defenders ship could perform against a raven/golem. It has the ability to fire off quickly as much as 4-5 time in the time a raven fires 1x, ie 1 rocket turret may work well for point defence. Looking at the skills, should still be able to defend up to over 100km. Its something I'll have to try sometime.
QuestionQuestionQuestion
wtf does any of that nonsense have to do with that guy training a raven

Draeklore
Unknown-Entity
Maru Ka'ge
Posted - 2009.08.06 03:28:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Irdia Freelancer
Large missiles are slow. Slow gives less dps. Longer range guns are slower than short range.

I fly amarr so only have amarr ship skills yet. Take an Abaddon in amarr space which fires in under 5 secs doing em/therm vs a missile doing either em or therm which is much slower. A raven may be easy to fly, have choice of damage types, but its rate of fire is comparitively terrible. The Amarrs have the longest range close weapons with the pulse lasers, the blasters are shorter with the autocannons the shortest. On the other side the lasers have the shortest falloff with blasters longer and autocannons the longest. This means I can get away with pulse lasers with no range bonus (or chasing the npc) on the ship easier than say a min using autocannons.

For up close, the min autocannons will out damage artillery. The drawback is they are very short range. Best to get a ship with range bonuses if runing min autocannons. Even runing min artillery I found its not so bad even with no min ship or ship bonuses to artillery.

I do wonder about how a rocket equiped with defenders ship could perform against a raven/golem. It has the ability to fire off quickly as much as 4-5 time in the time a raven fires 1x, ie 1 rocket turret may work well for point defence. Looking at the skills, should still be able to defend up to over 100km. Its something I'll have to try sometime.


So...yes or no on the Raven? Laughing

Kher'Aleer
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.08.06 05:31:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Irdia Freelancer
...Incoherent rambling...


Your point being Amarr BS with rocket defender > Raven Question

Tamahra
Gallente
Apina.
United Pod Service
Posted - 2009.08.06 06:45:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: DeathRavens
Hell yes (retrained from Gallente Dominix to Raven...)


dito. and i have never regretted my decision

Irdia Freelancer
Posted - 2009.08.06 06:51:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Draeklore

So...yes or no on the Raven? Laughing

Player choice. any battleship can do a good job dropping npc's. I listed what I would consider if I was making the choice. Mostly I would chose based not on the ship, but where I intended to be.

If you fly in Min space then a min ship will do beter dps than the raven as its more specialised. The raven is a jack of all trades approach. It not the best, but its not bad either.

You have looked at Artillery. In min space with autocannons/gyros and a range/falloff bonus you can do more dps. Given that artillery isn't that bad either. I use artillery on an amarr shield tank (no ship bonuses to artillery) where I want more tank than convential armor tanking is capable of, plus am facing non amarr npc's so have advantage of being able to select damage type better.

If your in Min space, then I definately wouldn't train a raven. If not in min space, then other ships could be better, with the raven being the JOAT ship which can change damage types plus do good damage to everything. If you move around and dont have many opponents with defender missiles, raven could be better.

Ravens do have their achilles heel. Missiles can be shot down. As for the brainless idiot who called what I wrote incoherent ramblings. Lets just illustrate the effect of rockets.

- rocket launcher II 3.2 sec to fire (think its -25% with training = 2.4 secs)
- cruise missile launcher II 17.6 sec to fire (13.2 trained)

Say the raven has 3x bcs's which reduce firing times by about 25% more and are only on the raven. This reduces the firing time to around 9.6 secs - ie 1x rocket launcher can be almost eliminating 4 cruise launchers. I haven't tried it in-game, but the figures sure suggest the rockets sure have potential in stopping a good amount of raven cruise missile damage. This I feel is a weakness that missiles have which gun turrets (laser/hybrid/projectile) dont have. But the brainless idiot has not thought of such thing therefore its incoherent ramblings. If your up against something with defender missiles, rockets can sure pump a lot of them into space for a short duration.

I have heard that npc's target 1 defender to each torp while 2 are needed to knock down a torp. If fit torps the npcs wont knock down your missiles. Torps being the hevier and shorter range for missiles, much like artillery and autocannons or beams/pulse lasers, or rails and blasters. Shorter range does more dps.

Ydyp Ieva
Caldari
Amarrian Retribution
Posted - 2009.08.06 07:08:00 - [15]
 

Raven was my second BS I could fly. Only owned 2 of those, first one got blown to smitherenes when I wasn't watching out. Second one I sold cause I don't realy like BS that much. But as far as I can tell the Raven had a faster pace through missions then the Dominix that I tried once as well.

Now I use Ishtar/Nighthawk, they get the job done perfectly fine. Slightly slower then a fully trained Raven pilot though. So if you feel comfortable with your skills in the shiptypes you want to fly or are focused on maximizing isk/hour a crosstraining to Raven (and even amarr ships) isn't a bad thing to do.

Kher'Aleer
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.08.06 08:15:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Kher''Aleer on 06/08/2009 08:15:32
Originally by: Irdia Freelancer
As for the brainless idiot who called what I wrote incoherent ramblings. Lets just illustrate the effect of rockets.


Dude, seriously, it was incoherent.
The second post wasn't though, I give you that.

For the other part: you obviously have no clue about what you're talking about, you havent even tested the stuff you're talking about ingame yet.
Still you come here and try to "illustrate" things to senior players while you call them brainless idiots?

Amazing. Shocked


Edit: spelling 4tw.

Kher'Aleer
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.08.06 09:09:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Kher''Aleer on 06/08/2009 09:11:15
To OP.

It's been said already but crosstraining for a Raven when you already fly Minmatar isn't such a bad idea.
The raven is the perfect workhorse and a good compliment to your Maelstrom.

As for skillpoint distribution goes (PVE wise):
Raven shield tank and so does your Maelstrom, no wasted SP there.
Raven uses light and medium drones for anti frigate/cruiser support, so does your Maelstrom too I believe?

The only "wasted" SP will be into Caldari BS and missiles.
Missile skills really doesnt take much SP as there are no tree you'll have to train, like with guns.
Just train for the missile type you want and the few support skills for it then you're done.

A second note about missiles would be that the Typhoon also use them to an extent, thus it's not a complete waste minmatar wise.
Although why one would actually fly the 'phoon is beyond me, as it's ugly as hell. Very Happy

edit: moar spell

Arrs Grazznic
Poena Executive Solutions
Posted - 2009.08.06 09:34:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Alberico DeSandre
Same situation as the opening poster, i'm very comfortable with a navy mega right now in level 4s, doing them pretty fast. I even fly the thing in the AE bonus room and warp out only one time to refit guns.

I just wonder if i'm missing out on something even faster and more efficient. I've got a raven+golem plan set in evemon right now that i'm following. Based on the replies here it seems like it's worth the time, and at the very least it'l get me familiar with a new weapon and ship which will be interesting.

I feel the same as Alberico -- I run a Navy Mega with a 700dps permatank, dishing nearly 1000 dps. No matter how I play with the figures in EFT I can't get a CNR to match this, in both damage output and especially in tank. Yet... Everyone claims the Raven is better and I feel I'm missing out somehow!

So, is it just the ability to change damage types that makes the Raven the ship of choice, or is there something else I'm missing that would make it out perform my Mega?

Cheers,
Arrs

Ydyp Ieva
Caldari
Amarrian Retribution
Posted - 2009.08.06 09:49:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Arrs Grazznic
Originally by: Alberico DeSandre
Same situation as the opening poster, i'm very comfortable with a navy mega right now in level 4s, doing them pretty fast. I even fly the thing in the AE bonus room and warp out only one time to refit guns.

I just wonder if i'm missing out on something even faster and more efficient. I've got a raven+golem plan set in evemon right now that i'm following. Based on the replies here it seems like it's worth the time, and at the very least it'l get me familiar with a new weapon and ship which will be interesting.

I feel the same as Alberico -- I run a Navy Mega with a 700dps permatank, dishing nearly 1000 dps. No matter how I play with the figures in EFT I can't get a CNR to match this, in both damage output and especially in tank. Yet... Everyone claims the Raven is better and I feel I'm missing out somehow!

So, is it just the ability to change damage types that makes the Raven the ship of choice, or is there something else I'm missing that would make it out perform my Mega?

Cheers,
Arrs


You missing out the tracking/falloff of guns compared to the always hit from the missions. For missiles the only factors to calculate dps is signature radius and speed compared tot he type of missile you use.
Guns are a lot more complex, and in some missions you don't want to overaggro by flyinginto the other groups before the first one is taken down.

Agree that a gunboat deals out more dps when it can keep his optimal and the tranvertical small enough so it's guns can track.

A raven however just warps in, lock up and fires his missiles, wait for them to hit. Doesn't have to move into optimal, keeping an aye on transverticals and all that sort of stuff a gunboat will have to. So Raven: easier to fly, quicker to start shooting, no need to travel 30-50km to a gate you land on because of you had to move that much to chase the rats.

FroschForscher
Caldari
The German Star-Fighters
United European Star-Force
Posted - 2009.08.06 09:56:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: FroschForscher on 06/08/2009 09:56:48
Edited by: FroschForscher on 06/08/2009 09:56:08
a faction fitted cnr with all related skills at IV will run an AE without bonus room in about 30 minutes. now its up to you if its worth to crosstrain

edit: fitted with TP and 3x rigor (signature focusing at IV as well)

Chronospin
Minmatar
MATAR ELITE ARMY
Posted - 2009.08.06 11:15:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Chronospin on 06/08/2009 11:15:16
Me think u should go minmatar. After, ppl can say what they want but if u are able to pwn seriousely in matar hulls, u are a master among the wanabees.

Me think this raven should be nerfed again, again, and again.

Soliscout
Posted - 2009.08.06 12:06:00 - [22]
 

I for my part can say the following...for allround mission running there is nothing better than ships of the raven class, be it a simple raven, or a CNR or even a Golem.

This reasons were described around here enough already, BUT taking the fun factor in account...well there are many other ships that are a lot more fun....basically what you do in missions with a ravenkind ship is

Arrowwarp in ArrowtargetArrowmissle awayArrowretargetArrow???Arrowprofit

there is no movement involced, nor is there anything around angels or optimal range involved...so its pretty damn boring

what I would advise you is to get a ravenkind ship to "farm" money when in need...and keep your other BS for when you want to have some "fun" (as far as this is possible in missions)

maddmaxx III
Caldari
Sons Of 0din
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2009.08.06 12:45:00 - [23]
 

Fail raven is fail, yes its nice afk farming setup but missiles suck, didn't take me long to realize this until I trained amarr, no ammo ftw. Gunnery skills are a pain to train properly but its worth it in the end.

Ydyp Ieva
Caldari
Amarrian Retribution
Posted - 2009.08.06 12:47:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Soliscout
I for my part can say the following...for allround mission running there is nothing better than ships of the raven class, be it a simple raven, or a CNR or even a Golem.

This reasons were described around here enough already, BUT taking the fun factor in account...well there are many other ships that are a lot more fun....basically what you do in missions with a ravenkind ship is

Arrowwarp in ArrowtargetArrowmissle awayArrowretargetArrow???Arrowprofit

there is no movement involced, nor is there anything around angels or optimal range involved...so its pretty damn boring

what I would advise you is to get a ravenkind ship to "farm" money when in need...and keep your other BS for when you want to have some "fun" (as far as this is possible in missions)


Try a level 4 in an interceptor Wink But I would advice to try that only with missions where you are up against only gunships.

Ghoest
Posted - 2009.08.06 13:18:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: maddmaxx III
Fail raven is fail, yes its nice afk farming setup but missiles suck, didn't take me long to realize this until I trained amarr, no ammo ftw. Gunnery skills are a pain to train properly but its worth it in the end.



Saying guns are good realtive to missiles just because Amarr are awesome is silly.

Draeklore
Unknown-Entity
Maru Ka'ge
Posted - 2009.08.06 13:44:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Soliscout
I for my part can say the following...for allround mission running there is nothing better than ships of the raven class, be it a simple raven, or a CNR or even a Golem.

This reasons were described around here enough already, BUT taking the fun factor in account...well there are many other ships that are a lot more fun....basically what you do in missions with a ravenkind ship is

Arrowwarp in ArrowtargetArrowmissle awayArrowretargetArrow???Arrowprofit

there is no movement involced, nor is there anything around angels or optimal range involved...so its pretty damn boring

what I would advise you is to get a ravenkind ship to "farm" money when in need...and keep your other BS for when you want to have some "fun" (as far as this is possible in missions)



That's exactly what I plan to do. The Raven will be to farm L4's and maximize profit but I plan to fly matar for PvP and what not.

Draeklore
Unknown-Entity
Maru Ka'ge
Posted - 2009.08.06 13:49:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Arrs Grazznic
Originally by: Alberico DeSandre
Same situation as the opening poster, i'm very comfortable with a navy mega right now in level 4s, doing them pretty fast. I even fly the thing in the AE bonus room and warp out only one time to refit guns.

I just wonder if i'm missing out on something even faster and more efficient. I've got a raven+golem plan set in evemon right now that i'm following. Based on the replies here it seems like it's worth the time, and at the very least it'l get me familiar with a new weapon and ship which will be interesting.

I feel the same as Alberico -- I run a Navy Mega with a 700dps permatank, dishing nearly 1000 dps. No matter how I play with the figures in EFT I can't get a CNR to match this, in both damage output and especially in tank. Yet... Everyone claims the Raven is better and I feel I'm missing out somehow!

So, is it just the ability to change damage types that makes the Raven the ship of choice, or is there something else I'm missing that would make it out perform my Mega?

Cheers,
Arrs



It's been said before but EFT numbers do not tell you everything. You can get up to 1000 dps assuming you are always in optimal range and hitting your target. Missiles don't have optimal range and always hit (minus defender missiles of course) so if you compared actual DPS of a Raven with that of your Mega, the Raven may actually end up on top for most missions.

Sytoru Hiroshyma
Live and let burn
Posted - 2009.08.06 14:05:00 - [28]
 

I still haven't bothered with Minmatar BS but that was primarily a circumstance thing. I was running L3s in a 'Cane (passive shield) and at the time it was actually quicker for me to cross train to a Raven than it was to get into a 'Strom. This, coupled with the fact that Stealth Bombers were using Cruise Launchers and I wanted some of that as well meant that the only "wasted" SP were going to be Caldari Frig and Cruiser to 4.

The big advantages that the Raven hulls have are the ability to pick damage type without sacrificing anything and the lack of worrying about optimal/falloff and tracking. Now for the disclaimer.... I run missions purely for ISK. I don't enjoy doing them, they're just the quickest way to pay for ships to pew in.

Now, if you are going for the Raven as an ISK machine I strongly urge you to get a CNR asap and faction fit the launchers and BCUs as soon as you can. The CNR gives you an immediate ~18% boost in dps through the additional launcher slot as well as a massive shield buffer to play with. Whack 4 T2 specific hardeners in and you will find that with reasonable Cruise/drone skills you will be able to just run the missions on your buffer. Keep an XL booster and a boost amp on there until you are actually confident in this and then you can swap the boost amp out for a Target Painter. As you learn more about what the ship is capable of you will even find yourself swapping the XL booster out for a second Target Painter quite often. Yes. There will still be missions that you will want to keep the booster and amp for - L4 Blockade springs to mind. But those missions are few and far between.


Then again, if you derive enjoyment out of the actual missioning process then I'd suggest thinking carefully before going this route since it will quickly make your missions routine.

Survivor Aid
Posted - 2009.08.06 14:16:00 - [29]
 

I asked this same question about a month ago. I ended up training for a CNR, pimped it out with some faction and deadspace stuff... Damn it's fast for missions... The tank is rarely a problem since you kill stuff so fast. Now I'm training up for the golem, will see how that performs...

Kaomi Zorbaz
Posted - 2009.08.06 15:01:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Kaomi Zorbaz on 06/08/2009 15:01:54
Nice topic. I have been playing off and on for the past 3 years. But this time thinking about sticking it out. I am training minmater and was wondering about cross training caldari for missions.


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