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Poreuomai
Minmatar
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.08.07 11:34:00 - [151]
 

Mr Windu, or whatever your true name may be, I have found Zoolkhan to be a very honest and honourable warrior, who at times has even rejected some of my own suggested tactics as they were deemed being not worthy of a Minmatar warrior, so I find your assertions here hard to believe.

edeity
Amarr
Posted - 2009.08.07 12:03:00 - [152]
 

A former outsider, now almost insiders perspective on these struggles, I feel compelled to make comment.

More than anything I respect and admire the pursuit of virtue and honor. To my view, the true slavery that exists is over the capsuleer class and is a slavery of numbers. Isk or killboards many seem willing to trade what has real value for these shams of meaning.

The zeal of Ushra'Khan is admirable. But your virtue is mixed. I do see pursuit of ideals, but there is opportunistic interpretations of truth, and this utterly pathetic demagoguery of sloganism is utterly shameful for something that could have promise.

CVA is trustworthy. As first an outsider to providence I observed and watched and grew to love over time the tangible expression of purpose embodied in real virtue. These are living saints.

Ushra'Khan, at first seemed meaningless violence. Indistinct from the rabble of piracy. Over time one catches hints of slogans left lingering in channels, but when challenged in debate the spouters of these slogans are left mentally ill equipped beyond simple sentences. I fear the truth is that opportunism has taken root in your cause, and that the cause itself is increasingly devoid of meaning.

For me, I sit on the fence on slavery. I am not true blood Amarr, and I have an appreciation of the complexity of the issue. But even the truest of true blood Amarr will acknowledge that slavery in and of itself is not a purpose, but a means to achieving holy purpose.

From observation, the purpose of Amarr remains pure. Your purpose on the otherhand is difficult to distinguish from the rabid dogs who fly belt to belt desperate for finding some meaning in violence. I would truly love to see there is more that pursue real meaning in New Eden, and though you purport that you do, the evidence to this observer points contrary.

Xennith
Imperial Logistics and Supply
Posted - 2009.08.07 12:58:00 - [153]
 

You dont sound very neutral, undecided or impartial.

You also dismiss anything that doesnt affect capsuleers, which is a very self centered viewpoint.

Deus Letus
Chooch Inc.
Posted - 2009.08.07 12:59:00 - [154]
 

Quick question to Unity.

I know that if as Neut I fly into providence CVA and Holders will leave me alone and eventually embrace me.

If I do the same in Catch will -A-, Atlas and you do the same?
or
Immensia for that matter?

Just curious here nothing more. Please understand I know my past allegiance may nake this difficult for me personally so Please use just anyod Neut as an example

Poreuomai
Minmatar
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.08.07 13:05:00 - [155]
 

Edited by: Poreuomai on 07/08/2009 13:04:56
Originally by: edeity
But even the truest of true blood Amarr will acknowledge that slavery in and of itself is not a purpose, but a means to achieving holy purpose. From observation, the purpose of Amarr remains pure.

Your purpose on the otherhand is difficult to distinguish from the rabid dogs who fly belt to belt desperate for finding some meaning in violence.

I think you are right to distinguish between the purpose itself and the means to a purpose. However you seem to completely fail to make that distinction when you look at us. Our purpose is the ending of slavery. Our method is violence against those supporting slavery.

Xennith
Imperial Logistics and Supply
Posted - 2009.08.07 13:23:00 - [156]
 

Originally by: Deus Letus

If I do the same in Catch will -A-, Atlas and you do the same?



Why would we? You are a slaver supporter and therefore not neutral. We dont shoot neutrals, unfortunatly, unless we know before hand that you are not in providence supporting the fleshmerchants the assumption is that you are.

If you think that we have incorrectly identified you as an enemy of freedom then please contact one of our diplomats.

Again I feel it is a pity that you are looking at your own wallet and dismissing any concerns about the human beings that you are exploiting to fill that wallet.

Poreuomai
Minmatar
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.08.07 13:28:00 - [157]
 

Edited by: Poreuomai on 07/08/2009 13:29:00
Originally by: Deus Letus
Quick question to Unity.

I know that if as Neut I fly into providence CVA and Holders will leave me alone and eventually embrace me.

If I do the same in Catch will -A-, Atlas and you do the same?
or
Immensia for that matter?

If you have questions about .-A-. and Atlas, why are you asking us?

Deus Letus
Chooch Inc.
Posted - 2009.08.07 13:29:00 - [158]
 

Let me rephrase this since you missed the part about I understand my past may be an issue I am referring to just any old neut with no past history of Sylph, CVA or anyone.

If they come into your center of influence, not supporting slavers, but looking to experience 0.0 and even *gasp* maybe even trade with you. WOuld you accept them as CVA does or shoot them first and adk later.

It is a simple questions that does not require much thought to it. A simple yes we would shoot them no we would not is sufficient. No need for double speak here.

As for your insults to in regards to making profits or ISK, I wonder how you are able to afford what you have or are you also a thief as well.

Poreuomai
Minmatar
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.08.07 13:33:00 - [159]
 

Our ROE is quite clear and should be well known by now:

We are NRDS everywhere except Providence and Catch. In Providence and Catch we are NBSI.

Does that answer your question?

Xennith
Imperial Logistics and Supply
Posted - 2009.08.07 13:34:00 - [160]
 

Yes, we operate NRDS. (outside of slaver space)
Look at the time last year that Ushra'Khan based from Curse in the CL-85V area for proof of this.

skye orionis
Posted - 2009.08.07 16:57:00 - [161]
 

Since you don't control any space except a solitary system in Catch gifted to you by -A- the policy of 'NRDS everywhere except Providence and Catch' has almost no practical meaning.

If you truly believed in your cause you would be expending more effort creating your own stretch of 0.0 which was neutral friendly and slaver free. You brand every neutral pilot using Providence and Catch as a 'friend of slavers' and yet make no alternative available to them.

Many of the traders were simply concerned with making money with no realisation that they were supporting slavers. And now they are aware they are asking 'where else can I go'? If you fail to offer an alternative to them then you will never win, the power of economics will drown your principles and rhetoric. If you make no attempt to offer safe space in 0.0 for neutral traders then you will simply be considered terrorists, and history will not be kind to you.

Xennith
Imperial Logistics and Supply
Posted - 2009.08.07 17:15:00 - [162]
 

History can go take a running jump as long as we free our people and end slavery.

I would dearly love to be able to create an area of free space where we could welcome people in and allow everyone capsuleer and mortal alike to pursue their own dreams. However, being realistic this is unlikely to happen in the near future, we have survived as long as we have because of our belief in our cause and because we are almost impossible to pin down.

Inaction isnt an option, you fight the fight the best way you are able and right now that is through education with words, and education with phased plasma.

In the words of a legendary politician: "Education, Education, Education".

Kazzzi
Amarr
Heathen Legion
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.08.07 17:19:00 - [163]
 

Edited by: Kazzzi on 07/08/2009 17:20:57
Originally by: skye orionis
Since you don't control any space except a solitary system in Catch gifted to you by -A- the policy of 'NRDS everywhere except Providence and Catch' has almost no practical meaning.

If you truly believed in your cause you would be expending more effort creating your own stretch of 0.0 which was neutral friendly and slaver free. You brand every neutral pilot using Providence and Catch as a 'friend of slavers' and yet make no alternative available to them.

Many of the traders were simply concerned with making money with no realisation that they were supporting slavers. And now they are aware they are asking 'where else can I go'? If you fail to offer an alternative to them then you will never win, the power of economics will drown your principles and rhetoric. If you make no attempt to offer safe space in 0.0 for neutral traders then you will simply be considered terrorists, and history will not be kind to you.


Personal opinion:

I don't give a s*** about neutral traders who lack the stomach to fight for the cause. We're here to fight slavery in nullsec. We won't shoot these traders unless directed by ROE, but we're also not here to cater to and guard beancounters. Honorable warriors are welcome to join us in our struggle but cowards who only care for the isk can rot in hell.

skye orionis
Posted - 2009.08.07 17:46:00 - [164]
 

Then your efforts are for naught, the neutral pilots will continue to fill the coffers of the 'slavers' because there is no alternative but the ever tedious expanse of concord policed space.

Economics will ultimately be a more powerful force than your band of nomads.


Conlin
Gallente
LangToun
Posted - 2009.08.07 18:25:00 - [165]
 

Originally by: Lord Windu
Originally by: Conlin
Windu , I,ve never heard of you as a Sylph pilot , or even a U'K pilot .
In fact I doubt your sincerity in all of this , even you yourself question your own employment history .
Nice try though Rolling Eyes


At the time I was known as Kai Tempest although it has been a long time since I have gone by that name as it is flown under a different person. The fact that you do not know me does not change the my view on events over the last few years. That is why my publicly viewable employment history is inaccurate. Currently known as Kirra Liu on the most part however she has gone on a posting holiday for six months. Anyway back on topic, my point's have been accurate to how I have viewed the situation between your alliance and Sylph.


Would that be accurate from a "short Sylph career " point of view , or accurate from a "I have so many alts , I cant remember which one I sold off " , point of view ?.
Either way chum your very short career in sylph can hardly be appointed as unbiased now can it ?.
As I said previously , too many sylph or ex sylph pretending to know what they are talking about with the occassional shepherds crook nudging them in the back Wink

Butter Dog
Gallente
The Monocled Elite
Posted - 2009.08.07 18:47:00 - [166]
 

Originally by: skye orionis

If you truly believed in your cause you would be expending more effort creating your own stretch of 0.0 which was neutral friendly and slaver free. You brand every neutral pilot using Providence and Catch as a 'friend of slavers' and yet make no alternative available to them.


U'K does not have an ideology which necessitates space holding. We're not expansionists like the CVA, we align to no empire.

There is good ISK for neutral pilots to be made working for the Empire factions (preferably not Amarr or Caldari, of course), pilots will earn no more in providence, with its empty moons, barren and over-farmed belts, and low-ranking Sansha outlaws.

It makes no economic sense to base in Providence. We're happy to provide people with the educational experience of having their sansha-hunting vessels destroyed whilst they attempt to fill the coffers of the slavers.

It it not our role to provide an alternative for their greed. Although there are many options which will mean they do not support slavers when earning their coin.

skye orionis
Posted - 2009.08.07 19:12:00 - [167]
 

So, can we expect more direct action against those alliances who support the slave trade?

Looking at the market in the Catch region the only stations buying and selling slaves belong to Against All Authorities, I look forward to your attempts to eradicate them. And we should remember that unlike Sylph only friends of -A- can dock at these stations, so pilots who are members of -A- or their allies are more directly connected to the slave trade than any member of Sylph.

And yet, you not only tolerate this open market in your kinsmen, but you fly side by side with these pilots. What would make your pilots abandon this basic principle? Fear of -A- is surely a powerful factor, they could take your space from you without a thought. I think your acceptance of the slave trade within -A- is a sign that you do value your space after all, having a home base at the cost of a handful of slaves is an easy deal to rationalize. But it is a compromise, and shows your principles will be abandoned when it suits you.

I'm sure the slaves forced to work for -A- still support your cause, even though you refuse to suit theirs.

Xennith
Imperial Logistics and Supply
Posted - 2009.08.07 19:37:00 - [168]
 

Dont be rediculous. CVA dont even attempt to deny that they are slavers, they revel in it, celebrate it. Sylph have been long standing allies of CVA. Various members of Sylph have been spotted openly talking in local channels about how many slaves they own, how they want to enslave UK pilots.

Market orders that can be placed by anyone are hardly going to make anyone think that -A- are anything but freedom loving pilots who I am glad to call ally.

Got any other arguments about what we should be doing and who we should be shooting to lay down? We've picked our fight already, we know why we fight and who the enemy is.

zoolkhan
Minmatar
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.08.07 19:44:00 - [169]
 

Originally by: skye orionis
So, can we expect more direct action against those alliances who support the slave trade?



more direct than going into their space and killing them?

or is this yet another "why dont you 800 bunch take on the 1290 strong CVA, 688 paxton, 811 -7-, 500 sylph, ..etc)
blob headon, and remove their jammers
" question?

I think we score well, thats evident and indiscutable.
As well as the fact that we have to operate withing our possibilities. And obvously, we are after all those years and despite friendly bonds to other alliance - still pretty much working alone in our own gangs most of the time.
And that is simpley because our cause is an idealistic cause w/o profit. Liberating humans does aparrantly not attract as many people as exploiting slaves by mining, ratting , docking and renting offices from slavers.

You should admire us for keeping the fight up
instead trying to shed bad light on us with your biased
and background ignorant questions.

Quote:
Looking at the market in the Catch region the only stations buying and selling slaves belong to Against All Authorities, I look forward to your attempts to eradicate them.


these are bait transfers, we have catched quiet a few individuals that way.

Quote:
Fear of -A- is surely a powerful factor, they could take your space from you without a thought.


People like you will always confuse mutual respect with fear.
They respect our ways, and allow us to use their station free of charge. Without having been asked for it, we
found it a matter of honor to repay them with our pvp forces
in their fight against the NC (like we assisted ISS against IAC years back)

fear playes no role in our relationship, and theyre no slavers - they dont pursue the agenda to expand the amarr territory either. Its fun to see you falling to the trap
though.

Quote:
I'm sure the slaves forced to work for -A- still support your cause, even though you refuse to suit theirs.


Twice i saw a minor -a- capsuleer actually owning slaves.
In both cases they have been released, and the pilot in question allow us to explain him why this is bad.

I appreciate youre very concerned about what we potentially could do wrong, and little concerned about what we are proven to be doing right. Youre in good company with that attitude, like one of many sheeps - and equally naive.

best regards

skye orionis
Posted - 2009.08.07 19:48:00 - [170]
 

Anyone could place the buy or sell order without docking, but those slaves had to get to that -A- station by being carried by a -A- pilot or one of their allies.

You don't see any slaves for sale or orders to buy them in any station in Catch which has an NRDS policy.

Xennith
Imperial Logistics and Supply
Posted - 2009.08.07 20:26:00 - [171]
 

For your next trick are you going to show that black is white, up is down and slavery freedom?

Incidently, what corporation or alliance are you in to be looking to buy slaves in catch or anywhere?

Poreuomai
Minmatar
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.08.07 20:47:00 - [172]
 

Originally by: skye orionis
Since you don't control any space except a solitary system in Catch gifted to you by -A- the policy of 'NRDS everywhere except Providence and Catch' has almost no practical meaning.

It has plenty of meaning for the crew of the neutral ships which we do not blow up.

Originally by: skye orionis
Many of the traders were simply concerned with making money with no realisation that they were supporting slavers. And now they are aware they are asking 'where else can I go'? If you fail to offer an alternative to them then you will never win, the power of economics will drown your principles and rhetoric. If you make no attempt to offer safe space in 0.0 for neutral traders then you will simply be considered terrorists, and history will not be kind to you.

You raise an interesting point. I agree it would be nice if there were an NRDS alternative to Providence. However that is not an option for us right now. A year ago we had our own little corner of the woods in CL-85V and could pretty much rat and mine in its two dead end systems to our hearts content. Neutrals which did not engage us were welcome there too. We gave that up in order to be closer to where we have work to do. That decision is now starting to pay off.

skye orionis
Posted - 2009.08.07 20:49:00 - [173]
 

Edited by: skye orionis on 07/08/2009 20:51:27
I was merely passing through while looking to buy some materials which I can get at a lower price out here. I have no interest in slaves. I only chose to check the regional market out of curiosity while I was here, based on your organization's statments I expected to find a thriving 0.0 market for slaves, slavers, vitoc and other paraphenalia. Instead I found the only people dealing in these are your allies who clearly have no respect for your anti-slavery ideals.

To be honest with all the bluster I thought it might be an interesting experience to fly my transport ship through this 'warzone', I was expecting gatecamps, and wrecks on every gate. Instead I sailed plainly through, completely uncontested.


Xennith
Imperial Logistics and Supply
Posted - 2009.08.07 21:13:00 - [174]
 

Well its certainly been an interesting journey chatting with you, we've run from "you dont practise NRDS" through "you're just pirates" to "Sylph arent slavers" to "you arent effective" and "you should be shooting alliance X".

The notion of asymetric warfare is based on mobility and unexpected strikes. Occuption however seems to be what you are thinking of, gatecamps on every gate, patrols, etc. If we were ten times larger than we are now, today, we would still not have enough firepower to occupy slaver space. So we fight how we can.

But thanks for the advice on how we should be fighting, coming from someone like you it carries a great deal of weight.

skye orionis
Posted - 2009.08.07 21:36:00 - [175]
 

I believe the greatest mobility and fluidity comes from the asymmetric application of your guiding principles so that they can accommodate your current position.

I'm largely trying to play devils advocate here, it is a complex set of issues.

Poreuomai
Minmatar
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.08.07 21:53:00 - [176]
 

Nothing wrong with challenging us to think about certain issues or look at things another way. Smile

Kazzzi
Amarr
Heathen Legion
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.08.08 06:40:00 - [177]
 

Edited by: Kazzzi on 08/08/2009 06:43:09
Skye, I have purchased literally thousands of slaves from the open market, all of which I freed and relocated to the safety of the Minmatar Republic. Smuggling slaves requires many bribes and market procedures to launder the isk trail so as to avoid retribution upon my contacts from Imperial agents. Any records of slaves being processed through -A- stations are possibly a result of such smuggling and laundering. In order to protect the innocent, I will confirm nothing and will speak no more in detail on the matter.

Butter Dog
Gallente
The Monocled Elite
Posted - 2009.08.08 14:32:00 - [178]
 

Originally by: skye orionis
I believe the greatest mobility and fluidity comes from the asymmetric application of your guiding principles so that they can accommodate your current position.

I'm largely trying to play devils advocate here, it is a complex set of issues.


Lay off the vitoc, it is eroding your senses.


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