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Spaztick
Terminal Impact
Kairakau
Posted - 2009.09.03 20:08:00 - [901]
 

Originally by: Seriously Bored

You're also short a Tracking Computer with an Optimal Script too. So your DD proof fit now has what, 60% of the range of a similar Maelstrom? Doesn't that totally defeat the point of sniping to begin with?


I have the same range as his fit but with better tracking, his range is further because of the locus rigs. He would not survive a doomsday, however, from Avatars (the most prolific titan) or an Erebus. In my first fit it was a pure sniper role, but I changed it up in the second to survive a doomsday. That doesn't leave room for locus rigs, though, because the Tempest doesn't sport the powergrid of the Maelstrom. I like the Maelstrom for a pure sniper role, but I think you give up too much in the way of speed, agility and remote rep for the extra damage, not to mention the shield boost bonus wasted. As for range, I have not been in any fights where the other fleet was further than 150km, and most of the time they were around 120-130 away. I couldn't imagine actually seeing someone shooting from 200km at another fleet as 3/4 of the turret sniper ships can't reach that far.

The Tempest is also cheaper. If you were to change that shield boost bonus to a resist or shield HP bonus then I would use the Maelstrom, but right now the cost vs effectiveness isn't doing it for me.

Ecky X
SniggWaffe
FREE KARTTOON NOW
Posted - 2009.09.03 20:13:00 - [902]
 

Originally by: Spaztick
As for range, I have not been in any fights where the other fleet was further than 150km, and most of the time they were around 120-130 away. I couldn't imagine actually seeing someone shooting from 200km at another fleet as 3/4 of the turret sniper ships can't reach that far.


Meet Pandemic Legion.

Mysteriax
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.09.03 20:25:00 - [903]
 

Edited by: Mysteriax on 03/09/2009 20:30:43
I have been in many 0.0 fights and average sniper fighting range is 180km, and I hardly ever saw a shorter range then 170.
Never at 150 or less because usually you engage at a pos and you want to be out of range of the 150km Scrambler.

So measure the DPS at 180km that's the most fair point and yes some alliances/corps like to snipe at 200km+ range where you really need the maelstrom because the tempest cant lock that far even with gangbonus or you need 3 sebo's

Also if the FC notice you dont have 3 optimal range mods as minmatar you cant even come on sniper ops already most FC dont like minmatar BS on sniper fleets, although my mael fit is very nice :).

Aranis Nax
Minmatar
Minmatar United Freedom Front
The 11th Hour
Posted - 2009.09.03 21:08:00 - [904]
 

Edited by: Aranis Nax on 03/09/2009 23:56:52
Edited by: Aranis Nax on 03/09/2009 21:09:20
didn't have the time nor the energy to write a concise suggestion in time to get it posted. What is most important though is not the suggestion as such but showing CCP that they have to take a look at it by giving the numbers of where balance falls apart. It worked for ECM, nos and lasers. All to the detriment of the tempest el oh el.

a small bonus, would be a shame to let the work go to waste after all.
no resists, RR-ish fits dps chart
armor resists, same stuff as previous one
final one, shield resists, ditto
fits that are compared are what could be considered cookie cutter for a RR fleet, Tempest lacks in the EHP department badly, as it only has one plate, but to be even competing it really does need 2 damage mods. Raven also only has 1 plate but the extra mid makes a good difference, as well as the complete freedom of damage choice.
I noticed after I made the graphs that I forgot to switch from EM to explosive torps for the phoon and raven on the armor tank. dps from them is a good deal higher then shown, they should only be slightly lower then megathron on the graph.

AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2009.09.03 21:14:00 - [905]
 

Edited by: AstroPhobic on 03/09/2009 21:24:54
Why do the raven and phoon have the torp range? Shouldn't the raven be at 30km and the phoon at 20?

edit: and it's not labeled very clearly.. didn't know what the raven was shooting and was wondering for the longest time why the phoon's damage looked like it was a raven clone. Confused

Eli Porter
Posted - 2009.09.03 21:35:00 - [906]
 

You also gave Ion Blaster Cannons to the Megathron and Mega Pulse Lasers to Geddon on RR fits?ugh

Aranis Nax
Minmatar
Minmatar United Freedom Front
The 11th Hour
Posted - 2009.09.04 00:12:00 - [907]
 

Raven range fixed
Megathron given neutron blasters instead of ion blasters, I'm not as familiar with blaster ships as I am with minmatar and amarr ships(and some caldari ships).

Why graphs are so unclear is mostly cause they're a work in progress, originally they were only made to compare turrets directly and to give me a better understanding of tracking mechanics, well they're far more then that now Wink. Maybe someday it'll look better.

Naughty Boy's Damage Spreadsheet is nicer and looks better but was excruciating slow for me running it in OpenOffice Calc while it's made with Excel. No idea how up to date it is however.

saango0
Posted - 2009.09.04 02:21:00 - [908]
 

bump

Tyler Lowe
DROW Org
Brotherhood of the Spider
Posted - 2009.09.04 05:36:00 - [909]
 

Edited by: Tyler Lowe on 04/09/2009 08:00:36
Originally by: Spaztick
Originally by: Tyler Lowe

...
You're missing the MWD. I would come back and fix your fits for something other than EFT Warrior-ing.



I would have thought that EFT is the only place anyone would ever willingly fit a Typhoon for sniping, but I am always willing to learn something new. What fit using cruise and artillery is it that you are concerned that a swap of cruise and torp fitting reqs will no longer be possible? I looked at the ship many times over and you still need two fitting mods even with the current cruise reqs. An MWD in the med slots means you need to use 2 tracking enhancers or you might as well forget the whole thing. That leaves you with room for 3 damage mods. Ordinarily, I'd say "BCU" on a Typhoon, but that seems pointless here. BTW, I once tried a cruise and arty combo with this ship after the ship bonus change and it was horrible IMO, but perhaps you could help me to understand where it is I went wrong.

So I will ask again, please: "What cruise missile and artillery fitting is it that you are afraid of loosing with this ship?"

Caroline Nikon
Posted - 2009.09.04 12:59:00 - [910]
 

RR be shield or armor type is irrelevant on ships that do not have a meaningful buffer. Just fitting them on that tempest with no plates and no resist helps almost nothing.

Now .. imagine that same ship you could drop the RCU... put an EANM and you coudl lock at good sniping range with only 2 SB.. so you could also add 1 invul II.

And .. tchan than.. you have an ALMOST usable sniper. That with cheap rigs CAN tank a DD and still be quite fast moving out of bubbles.

Now to make it worth using.. neutralize the range issue (less flavor on fleets) with the falloff on range modules. OR increase its alpha and dps by changign the damage bonus into a 7.5% damage bonus.. or just massively increase alpha by changing the ROF bonus into a 7.5% damage bonus.


These are all EASY changes.. They do not fix ship so much as astrophoibic ones but are much more hard to find any possible flukes of unbalance .. so no reason CCP could give to not do at LEAST these.

Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Emptiness.
Posted - 2009.09.04 16:01:00 - [911]
 

Edited by: Kagura Nikon on 04/09/2009 16:03:54
Originally by: Aranis Nax
Edited by: Aranis Nax on 03/09/2009 23:56:52
Edited by: Aranis Nax on 03/09/2009 21:09:20
didn't have the time nor the energy to write a concise suggestion in time to get it posted. What is most important though is not the suggestion as such but showing CCP that they have to take a look at it by giving the numbers of where balance falls apart. It worked for ECM, nos and lasers. All to the detriment of the tempest el oh el.

a small bonus, would be a shame to let the work go to waste after all.
no resists, RR-ish fits dps chart
armor resists, same stuff as previous one
final one, shield resists, ditto
fits that are compared are what could be considered cookie cutter for a RR fleet, Tempest lacks in the EHP department badly, as it only has one plate, but to be even competing it really does need 2 damage mods. Raven also only has 1 plate but the extra mid makes a good difference, as well as the complete freedom of damage choice.
I noticed after I made the graphs that I forgot to switch from EM to explosive torps for the phoon and raven on the armor tank. dps from them is a good deal higher then shown, they should only be slightly lower then megathron on the graph.


What you call a RR fittigns? Putting 2 remote lar is NOT RR fit. a RR fit needs DC 2 resistance modules and 2 plates.. MINIMUM! That means tempest graphs shoudl be made with 1 damage mod not 2! TEmpest lack of low slots to put enough tank and fit damage mods is one of its main issues, and a graph that compares a tempest with same number of damage mods as a megatron or armageddon is not showing the whole truth.

Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
Posted - 2009.09.04 19:43:00 - [912]
 

Worst part they are changing fleet ships now so they will use this as an excuse to not change the tempest later since would require a RE change on the fleet tempest. Tricky evil CCP!

AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2009.09.04 19:57:00 - [913]
 

Orakkus can you please remove the shield/armor HP swap for the phoon? Since this has already been fixed. Thanks Smile

Seriously Bored
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.09.04 20:03:00 - [914]
 

Originally by: AstroPhobic
Orakkus can you please remove the shield/armor HP swap for the phoon? Since this has already been fixed. Thanks Smile


Really?? All this going on in SiSi? If so, I'll have to go check it out for myself. I wonder what else is in store.

Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
Posted - 2009.09.04 20:15:00 - [915]
 

Originally by: Seriously Bored
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Orakkus can you please remove the shield/armor HP swap for the phoon? Since this has already been fixed. Thanks Smile


Really?? All this going on in SiSi? If so, I'll have to go check it out for myself. I wonder what else is in store.


You will get disapointed....

This is the classical.. lets select the smaller request on their request set and mark the whole issue as solved.....

Spaztick
Terminal Impact
Kairakau
Posted - 2009.09.04 20:35:00 - [916]
 

Originally by: Tyler Lowe
What cruise missile and artillery fitting is it that you are afraid of loosing with this ship?


[Typhoon, LOL Tri. Fit]
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Reactor Control Unit II

100MN MicroWarpdrive II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Sensor Booster II
Sensor Booster II

1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet Carbonized Lead L
1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet Carbonized Lead L
1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet Carbonized Lead L
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Devastator Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Devastator Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Devastator Cruise Missile
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large Remote Armor Repair System II

Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I

Is the first that comes to mind. Also the typhoon isn't the only battleship to use missiles, you will be changing up the Raven, Scorpion and their counterparts, which messes with the ability of the Raven to use a RR fitting.

NightmareX
Nomads
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2009.09.04 20:36:00 - [917]
 

Originally by: Seriously Bored
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Orakkus can you please remove the shield/armor HP swap for the phoon? Since this has already been fixed. Thanks Smile


Really?? All this going on in SiSi? If so, I'll have to go check it out for myself. I wonder what else is in store.

It's true: LINK.

Seriously Bored
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.09.04 20:46:00 - [918]
 

Originally by: NightmareX
Originally by: Seriously Bored
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Orakkus can you please remove the shield/armor HP swap for the phoon? Since this has already been fixed. Thanks Smile


Really?? All this going on in SiSi? If so, I'll have to go check it out for myself. I wonder what else is in store.

It's true: LINK.


The new Fleet Pest looks like they took they took some of the suggestions from this thread to fix the normal Tempest. I'd like to say I'll miss the midslot, but I'd be flying the new Fleet Phoon instead, anyway.

It'll technically be the new Minnie damage king, I suppose.

So...step in the right direction CCP! Now let's fix the T1 version.

NightmareX
Nomads
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2009.09.04 20:56:00 - [919]
 

Originally by: Seriously Bored
So...step in the right direction CCP! Now let's fix the T1 version.

+ fix the Autocannons or the Artilleries now and we will have a nice AC Tempest Fleet Issue / Atrillery Tempest Fleet IssueWink.

Seriously Bored
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.09.04 21:06:00 - [920]
 

Originally by: NightmareX

+ fix the Autocannons or the Artilleries now and we will have a nice AC Tempest Fleet Issue / Atrillery Tempest Fleet IssueWink.


By the way...31 pages and we're just getting you to post now? Laughing Glad see you're on the right side of the argument though. Wink

Seems we got everyone out of posting retirement in this thread.

Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
Posted - 2009.09.04 21:11:00 - [921]
 

That if they gave it more PG. Because the old tempest could fit full rack 1400mm T2 the new one cannot. PG increase should be proportional. SO it needs 700 PG MORE than the proposed one.

NightmareX
Nomads
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2009.09.04 21:22:00 - [922]
 

Edited by: NightmareX on 04/09/2009 21:34:36
Originally by: Seriously Bored
Originally by: NightmareX

+ fix the Autocannons or the Artilleries now and we will have a nice AC Tempest Fleet Issue / Atrillery Tempest Fleet IssueWink.


By the way...31 pages and we're just getting you to post now? Laughing Glad see you're on the right side of the argument though. Wink

Seems we got everyone out of posting retirement in this thread.

Well, when i have been away from the forum for 90 days, i will be more chilled on the forum lol.

But now i'm back and will post like mad again i hope :D. Last time i checked my stats on the EVE-Search page, i was at the 154th place in having posted most, even after being away for 90 days on the forum.

Here is the stats on me so far: LINK. I'm at the 157th place now.

Anyways, back on topic. Even when i see the reason that Autocannons needs a boost, it doesn't mean the Autocannons are crap today. Yes they aren't as good as the other weapon types, but they are still doing ok as they are.

Artilleries on the other hand is not good as they are now. They need a boost in some ways. And atm i don't have an idea on how to fix them though.

But i'm still right about the Blasters though. They are still 100% perfect atm. And now when the new patch note says this: It is now possible to shoot objects that are 0 meters away with turrets, and hit them (this is still subject to tracking.). Then the Blasters will be better tbh. But that's for another topic though.

AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2009.09.04 21:36:00 - [923]
 

Actually could you just scrap the phoon changes entirely - the main issue was the HP swap, the fittings was an afterthought.

I think I'll leave the pest changes as they are currently - after all people voted on them, not something else - but I'd like to continue discussion on ways of fixing. I think the agility and speed bonus is a great starting point, along with the AC/ammo boost it's almost there. I can see 7.5% ROF/5% falloff, or 10% falloff working.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2009.09.04 21:41:00 - [924]
 

Originally by: NightmareX
But now i'm back and will post like mad again i hope :D. Last time i checked my stats on the EVE-Search page, i was at the 154th place in having posted most, even after being away for 90 days on the forum.


You're at 157 currently. You've got a ways to go, and I've taken two 6 month breaks. ;-)

-Liang

NightmareX
Nomads
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2009.09.04 21:45:00 - [925]
 

Edited by: NightmareX on 04/09/2009 21:46:51
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: NightmareX
But now i'm back and will post like mad again i hope :D. Last time i checked my stats on the EVE-Search page, i was at the 154th place in having posted most, even after being away for 90 days on the forum.


You're at 157 currently. You've got a ways to go, and I've taken two 6 month breaks. ;-)

-Liang

Yeah i know, i posted that i was at 157th place under thatVery Happy. But i'm still better than the 200th place though.

But in total i have been away from the forum for 1 week + 2 weeks + 1 month + 3 months. So it's almost 5 months in total.

AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2009.09.04 21:47:00 - [926]
 

Edited by: AstroPhobic on 04/09/2009 21:48:32
Seems I'm 116. Liang posts 10 times per day, I lurk more. But I've been here for longer. Razz

Hmm, Akita T is #2. Who's #1?

Spaztick
Terminal Impact
Kairakau
Posted - 2009.09.04 21:52:00 - [927]
 

Chribba is #3, if that tells you anything.

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2009.09.04 22:10:00 - [928]
 

Originally by: NightmareX

Artilleries on the other hand is not good as they are now. They need a boost in some ways. And atm i don't have an idea on how to fix them though.



Optimal or tracking. Currently they track rather horribly while being a comparatively short range gun.

Alternatively, TEs / optimal scripted TCs giving a falloff bonus in addition to optimal.

Cornette
Gallente
Solar Revenue Service
TAXU
Posted - 2009.09.04 22:12:00 - [929]
 

Giving my bump to this thread, for whats its worth.

Not anything I can say that have not been said already so I just go with the same old: Boost the Tempest!

Aranis Nax
Minmatar
Minmatar United Freedom Front
The 11th Hour
Posted - 2009.09.05 03:29:00 - [930]
 

Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Edited by: Kagura Nikon on 04/09/2009 16:03:54
Originally by: Aranis Nax
Edited by: Aranis Nax on 03/09/2009 23:56:52
Edited by: Aranis Nax on 03/09/2009 21:09:20
didn't have the time nor the energy to write a concise suggestion in time to get it posted. What is most important though is not the suggestion as such but showing CCP that they have to take a look at it by giving the numbers of where balance falls apart. It worked for ECM, nos and lasers. All to the detriment of the tempest el oh el.

a small bonus, would be a shame to let the work go to waste after all.
no resists, RR-ish fits dps chart
armor resists, same stuff as previous one
final one, shield resists, ditto
fits that are compared are what could be considered cookie cutter for a RR fleet, Tempest lacks in the EHP department badly, as it only has one plate, but to be even competing it really does need 2 damage mods. Raven also only has 1 plate but the extra mid makes a good difference, as well as the complete freedom of damage choice.
I noticed after I made the graphs that I forgot to switch from EM to explosive torps for the phoon and raven on the armor tank. dps from them is a good deal higher then shown, they should only be slightly lower then megathron on the graph.


What you call a RR fittigns? Putting 2 remote lar is NOT RR fit. a RR fit needs DC 2 resistance modules and 2 plates.. MINIMUM! That means tempest graphs shoudl be made with 1 damage mod not 2! TEmpest lack of low slots to put enough tank and fit damage mods is one of its main issues, and a graph that compares a tempest with same number of damage mods as a megatron or armageddon is not showing the whole truth.

That's what I said if you had bothered to read my comments: "..., Tempest lacks in the EHP department badly, as it only has one plate, but to be even competing it really does need 2 damage mods." 2 plate, 1 damage mod on pest just sucks, it still has the lowest EHP but has **** poor dps to boot.


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