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Ecky X
SniggWaffe
FREE KARTTOON NOW
Posted - 2009.09.02 16:33:00 - [871]
 

Edited by: Ecky X on 02/09/2009 16:37:09
Originally by: Seishi Maru
Eve needs MORE flavor.. not less! The fact that common bonuses are 5% not 10% is nothing but cosmethics.. does not improve or hamper the game in NOTHING! Its as relevant as the age old argument of "but the ship is vertical!"



You're half wrong. Take this hypothetical case.


Ask yourself, what's the difference between a ship that does 200dps and has a 100% damage bonus per level (1200dps @ level V), and a ship that does 600dps base, with a 20% damage bonus per level (1200dps @ V).


----

(hint: not to be rude, but there is a difference, just not in EFT with an "all V" character)


I hold to the Marauder bonus being the base way to handle the Tempest. It's really just cosmetic, after all, and it prevents runaway ship bonuses.

4 turrets, 6 highs, 100% role bonus, 5% damage per level, and 5/10% falloff per level.

Vrabac
Zawa's Fan Club
Posted - 2009.09.02 16:59:00 - [872]
 

Edited by: Vrabac on 02/09/2009 17:07:12
Originally by: Seishi Maru
Would need art department input. Would **** off people that use the 2 high slots, would make more expensive to fit ship. Would require a HUGE boost on PG and CPU to fit 1400MM T2 x 7 Even with 7 turrets ship would need a 7.5% bonus to keep same damage as a ship with 6 turrets and 2 damage bonuses.

Astrophobic proposal is basically the a on spot solution, maybe CCP will not admit that much but is the very essence of what is NEEDED. But even withthat I think tempest NEED a bit more PG to be a competitive sniper.


All your caps lock raging asside, fitting issues with ACs wouldn't be existant, while arties would be easily solved by a RCU or 2 even with it's grid as it is now. Try fitting a tachyon apoc for comparison. Not to mention the horrible implications of adding a few hundred grid while changing it, really what a load of work. And expensive to fit yes, because when you buy a ship for 80-90 mil and probably rigs for close to that value again buying an extra gun will financially crush you.

Both ways would actually make tempest do less raw dps, but would compensate by increasing the falloff and therefore dps loss at distance. I am not really openly propagating this or that, I just dislike the way skilling would be affecting ship performance and also generally don't consider eve's flavour coming from creating ships with whacky bonuses, even if 10% dmg bonus is still within certain limits. But if it can be avoided, why not?

Oh on the phoon, yeah it can't fit dual rep realistically. But really inability to fit dual rep is certainly not an indication of ship being hard to fit. Fit it within it's capacity and don't wish for what you can't get. You can think of just about any ship and imagine a setup it doesn't have grid or cpu for, yet saying it's hard to fit because of this is kinda wrong. Phoon can be fitted in a variety of ways, and can perform well with any of these fits and their intended roles. Asking boost where it definitely isn't needed can only harm someone's credibility when asking for that which is due, like boosting the poor tempest.

P.S. The quasi marauder idea is actually very good imho.

AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2009.09.02 17:33:00 - [873]
 

[Typhoon, +fitting]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

100MN MicroWarpdrive I
Warp Scrambler II
Stasis Webifier II
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron

Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bane Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bane Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bane Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bane Torpedo
Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L

Trimark Armor Pump I
Trimark Armor Pump I
Trimark Armor Pump I


Ogre II x5


Here we have a typical close range punishment tank+gank phoon. Assuming you can find the PWNAGE, it's 27 over on CPU. Mid tiered autos, nothing exuberant or excessively CPU hogging.

You can either find named web/scam/DCU (all 3 I believe) or drop the EANM for an ANP. PG is tight with max skills (800 leftover), but fine for this kind of fit. Dropping to an ANP is kinda painful with the current armor HP, as it only has 93k EHP - the same as a buffered torp raven.


Let's say you want neuts instead of autos. Because right now, you would. 3 heavy neuts, 4 torp launchers and a medium nos. It's not that much to fit on a battleship right?

[Typhoon, + fitting neut]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

100MN MicroWarpdrive I
Stasis Webifier II
Warp Scrambler II
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron

Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bane Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bane Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bane Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bane Torpedo
Heavy Energy Neutralizer II
Heavy Energy Neutralizer II
Heavy Energy Neutralizer II
Medium Diminishing Power System Drain I

Egress Port Maximizer I
Trimark Armor Pump I
Trimark Armor Pump I


Over 53 on CPU, over about 800 on grid (3%). This should not be a pressing fit. Don't even get me started on long range... trying to strap arty to the phoon is like trying to fit a 10mn MWD on a rifter.

It is easily one of the hardest ships to fit. It reminds me very much of the bellicose - you have to make adjustments EVERYWHERE with max skills.

The raven on the other hand is very easy to fit. 6 torp launchers, 2 medium neuts, MWD, painters, buffer, damage mods, DCU. All fits easily, no named mods to worry about.

Orakkus
Minmatar
m3 Corp
Posted - 2009.09.02 17:37:00 - [874]
 

Considering the lack of support for Ecky X's and Nikon's proposals, I am just going to let them go. If Ecky or Nikon wish me to continue to bump them, please let me know.

Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
Posted - 2009.09.02 17:59:00 - [875]
 

Originally by: Vrabac
Edited by: Vrabac on 02/09/2009 17:07:12
Originally by: Seishi Maru
Would need art department input. Would **** off people that use the 2 high slots, would make more expensive to fit ship. Would require a HUGE boost on PG and CPU to fit 1400MM T2 x 7 Even with 7 turrets ship would need a 7.5% bonus to keep same damage as a ship with 6 turrets and 2 damage bonuses.

Astrophobic proposal is basically the a on spot solution, maybe CCP will not admit that much but is the very essence of what is NEEDED. But even withthat I think tempest NEED a bit more PG to be a competitive sniper.


All your caps lock raging asside, fitting issues with ACs wouldn't be existant, while arties would be easily solved by a RCU or 2 even with it's grid as it is now. Try fitting a tachyon apoc for comparison. Not to mention the horrible implications of adding a few hundred grid while changing it, really what a load of work. And expensive to fit yes, because when you buy a ship for 80-90 mil and probably rigs for close to that value again buying an extra gun will financially crush you.

Both ways would actually make tempest do less raw dps, but would compensate by increasing the falloff and therefore dps loss at distance. I am not really openly propagating this or that, I just dislike the way skilling would be affecting ship performance and also generally don't consider eve's flavour coming from creating ships with whacky bonuses, even if 10% dmg bonus is still within certain limits. But if it can be avoided, why not?

Oh on the phoon, yeah it can't fit dual rep realistically. But really inability to fit dual rep is certainly not an indication of ship being hard to fit. Fit it within it's capacity and don't wish for what you can't get. You can think of just about any ship and imagine a setup it doesn't have grid or cpu for, yet saying it's hard to fit because of this is kinda wrong. Phoon can be fitted in a variety of ways, and can perform well with any of these fits and their intended roles. Asking boost where it definitely isn't needed can only harm someone's credibility when asking for that which is due, like boosting the poor tempest.

P.S. The quasi marauder idea is actually very good imho.


You lost your mind? Apoc has 1 extra low slot from slot layout AND 2 extra low slots from not needing track enhancers. You cannot comapre difficulty of fitting apoc with tempest. I can fly both ships at level 5 with t2 guns. APOC is WAY easier to fit. TEmepst would NOT work with 7 guns and no extra PG.

Ecky X
SniggWaffe
FREE KARTTOON NOW
Posted - 2009.09.02 18:36:00 - [876]
 

Originally by: Orakkus
Considering the lack of support for Ecky X's and Nikon's proposals, I am just going to let them go. If Ecky or Nikon wish me to continue to bump them, please let me know.



You can drop it, unless Vrabac wants to support me.

Crying or Very sad


TBH I like astro's ideas too, I just want an "asroplus" idea, with my Tempest proposal in place of his.

AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2009.09.02 20:28:00 - [877]
 

Originally by: Ecky X
Originally by: Orakkus
Considering the lack of support for Ecky X's and Nikon's proposals, I am just going to let them go. If Ecky or Nikon wish me to continue to bump them, please let me know.



You can drop it, unless Vrabac wants to support me.

Crying or Very sad


TBH I like astro's ideas too, I just want an "asroplus" idea, with my Tempest proposal in place of his.


I'm hurt. Sad




Laughing


Quite a few people don't like my tempest changes, but that's quite alright. It's not as if CCP is going to take my changes and use them all anyway. The important thing is getting support and getting noticed - and right now it's pretty much unanimous. 56 replies, 55 supports (4 unchecked boxes Very Happy). The threads in the past didn't have such a strong following, so I think we've got it nailed. Cool

Seriously Bored
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.09.02 20:39:00 - [878]
 

Originally by: AstroPhobic
The important thing is getting support and getting noticed - and right now it's pretty much unanimous. 56 replies, 55 supports (4 unchecked boxes Very Happy). The threads in the past didn't have such a strong following, so I think we've got it nailed. Cool


This is the most important part, I think. We've done a lot of squabbling in this thread alone, and everyone has their pet fix for the Tempest.

CCP is going to do what CCP is going to do, but I think if we all rally around something we're much more likely to get their attention. I doubt they'd implement anything we suggest 100% as is, so I'm just glad ONE of the suggestion threads is taking off!

Go go Astro thread.

Vrabac
Zawa's Fan Club
Posted - 2009.09.02 20:51:00 - [879]
 

Originally by: AstroPhobic
Phoon/Raven



Why do you insist on 3 bcus on a ship with 4 missile launchers? Did you fly the ship? How do you know it's "typical"?

Try 3 plates, eanm, dc, 2 bcus. Named web scram and painter, t1 mwd. T2 highs. 2 eanms and 1 bcu is more efficient when you look at numbers but that little extra dps is often more useful than comparatively more ehp. 3rd bcu on the other hand doesn't pay off sufficiently and sacrifices too much. Alternatively try 2 plates if you can afford a faction eanm. ANP sounds bad to you I see, you ever tried a mp geddon or a neutron mega? Also never heared of a problem finding named mods, try in jita, ask someone to carrier jump it into your 0.0. Laughing

Raven needs to waste lows for fitting mods in most realistic fits. Actually, talking about active tanks that got some worried in case of a phoon, torp raven can hardly be fitted at all with x-l booster without leaving several slots empty. A buffered raven with a point and web will be too paper thin for adding MWD and left with 3 slot buffer tank. Something needs to go. Ever shot torps into unwebbed target?

You'll run into cpu or grid or both problems most ways you try to go and will be forced to fit a pdu or rcu or co-proc depending on what you want to do with your utility highs. Nothing of this happened with phoon, it has options of dropping sizes in guns, of introducing more named mods without sacrificing effectiveness, generally it can work around it's problems without wasting slots on fitting mods, while raven usually can't. If you're so worried you might open a phoon thread tbh and we can go on arguing there. Very Happy

Originally by: Seishi Maru
You lost your mind? Apoc has 1 extra low slot from slot layout AND 2 extra low slots from not needing track enhancers. You cannot comapre difficulty of fitting apoc with tempest. I can fly both ships at level 5 with t2 guns. APOC is WAY easier to fit. TEmepst would NOT work with 7 guns and no extra PG.


No I haven't lost my mind, if you take your time and re-read I actually made an ironic comment on adding some grid to the pest being terribly complicated matter. Being ironic, I was actually referring to this being a rather simple if ccp takes time to revamp the whole ship in the first place.

However even without this, it would still be fittable in a way, if harder. And since this theoretical tempest would be changed in a rather drastic way no matter which of these possibilities happen, maybe handing over the primary sniping role to the maelstrom wouldn't be all that unrealistic to expect either. After all, it would end up having falloff bonus in any case.

Originally by: Ecky X
unless Vrabac wants to support me.


If you mean the marauder-like idea, I love it. Smile

Vrabac
Zawa's Fan Club
Posted - 2009.09.02 20:57:00 - [880]
 

Edited by: Vrabac on 02/09/2009 20:57:40
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Quite a few people don't like my tempest changes, but that's quite alright. It's not as if CCP is going to take my changes and use them all anyway. The important thing is getting support and getting noticed - and right now it's pretty much unanimous. 56 replies, 55 supports (4 unchecked boxes Very Happy). The threads in the past didn't have such a strong following, so I think we've got it nailed. Cool


Actually I must say your bottomline idea with introducing falloff bonus is very very good. However I don't like the details.

CCP is certainly going to do what CCP is going to do, that's the smartest thing anyone said in this thread, but if we whine sufficiently (and coherently - meaning not about stuff there is no cause to whine about, aka phoon Razz) they might at least be steered in a good general direction.

I just hope they don't break the probing filters while they're at it. Rolling Eyes

AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2009.09.02 21:03:00 - [881]
 

Originally by: Vrabac
Why do you insist on 3 bcus on a ship with 4 missile launchers? Did you fly the ship? How do you know it's "typical"?

Try 3 plates, eanm, dc, 2 bcus. Named web scram and painter, t1 mwd. T2 highs. 2 eanms and 1 bcu is more efficient when you look at numbers but that little extra dps is often more useful than comparatively more ehp. 3rd bcu on the other hand doesn't pay off sufficiently and sacrifices too much. Alternatively try 2 plates if you can afford a faction eanm. ANP sounds bad to you I see, you ever tried a mp geddon or a neutron mega? Also never heared of a problem finding named mods, try in jita, ask someone to carrier jump it into your 0.0. Laughing


Yeah, I'm currently training for the phoon (drone int 5 finishes here soon), and I've already mocked a few fits. The point is - you can fit all that named stuff, but it's a pain in the ass for a ship that's already dealing with natural deficits. Sensor strength, lock range, HP, cap... I have fitted ANPs on geddons and megas (I can fly all races, minnie and amarr almost perfectly), and it's not as big of a deal. The phoon has to scrounge everywhere it can, because minmatar are simply not made for gank+tank.

Quote:
Raven needs to waste lows for fitting mods in most realistic fits. Actually, talking about active tanks that got some worried in case of a phoon, torp raven can hardly be fitted at all with x-l booster without leaving several slots empty. A buffered raven with a point and web will be too paper thin for adding MWD and left with 3 slot buffer tank. Something needs to go. Ever shot torps into unwebbed target?


92k EHP is too thin? The phoon I posted has the same EHP.

Quote:
You'll run into cpu or grid or both problems most ways you try to go and will be forced to fit a pdu or rcu or co-proc depending on what you want to do with your utility highs. Nothing of this happened with phoon, it has options of dropping sizes in guns, of introducing more named mods without sacrificing effectiveness, generally it can work around it's problems without wasting slots on fitting mods, while raven usually can't. If you're so worried you might open a phoon thread tbh and we can go on arguing there. Very Happy


It's not a large concern, but it's something that has bugged me. The phoon has potential of being one of the great battleships but it's limited. I say gank at short range, you say blasterthron. I say gank at mid range, you say raven. I say gank at mid-long range, you say geddon. Where does the phoon fit in?

[Raven, torp]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Damage Control II

Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets
Large Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Target Painter II
Target Painter II

Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Core Defence Field Extender I
Core Defence Field Extender I
Core Defence Field Extender I


Hammerhead II x5

I don't see any compromising really. Damage, range, EHP... granted it has no web, but it has no point either so we'll assume dedicated damage *****. You could just as easily stick a web/scram in place of the other TP for comparison's sake. Probably even able to stick 2 PWNAGEs in place of the t2 painters and put on medium neut IIs.

AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2009.09.02 21:14:00 - [882]
 

I'd be more than willing to compromise on the tempest and phoon changes, for the record. Not that it matters in the end, but for presentation's sake. What's in the thread now should not change, though, for obvious reasons.


Orakkus
Minmatar
m3 Corp
Posted - 2009.09.02 21:30:00 - [883]
 

Well, with this latest conversation, I'll just narrate what is so far happening.

Currently Astrophobic's solution to the Minmatar Tempest/Projectile issue has the most positive response of all four that were submitted, having about 50+ approvals. Ecky X's solution has come in second with two approvals.

Efforts were made last week to have a e-mail campaign on Aug. 27th, sending to all CSMs and alternate CSMs expressing their desire to have this issue brought before CCP at the next meeting. During, this time The Solution threads were put up to help give the CSMs a possible idea on how to get CCP to fix various issues (in other words, giving the CSMs something to bargain with). Four of the main CSMs responded, three of which had agreed that the problem needed to be looked at and would be brought up before CCP. One even mentioned it was one of the top three main issues.

After the upgrade to the CSM wiki had been done, some more information was brought to light regarding that CCP had been told of such an issue back during the first CSM by Bane Glorious. That Dev was Fendahl who acknowledged that several good points were made regarding the problems with Large Autocannons.

So, at this point, we are currently waiting for the CSMs to go to their meeting (which I believe will be in Iceland this time).

Vrabac
Zawa's Fan Club
Posted - 2009.09.02 21:33:00 - [884]
 

Originally by: AstroPhobic
92k EHP is too thin? The phoon I posted has the same EHP.


Yes but your phoon is bad. You simply sacrifice too much tank in favour of too little damage gain. Losing 20k ehp for handful of dps (that without gang or possible implant bonus which would further increase the difference) is hardly rational. A BS with below 100k ehp is simply too thin for what it usually has to deal with and would melt too fast. Especially in the case of a raven which is automatic primary magnet, such a thin tank would be a bad idea.

Originally by: AstroPhobic
Where does the phoon fit in?


Quite easily into gank at close range. Mega might do a bit more in raw numbers, but also has more severe limitations such as greater cap dependency, greater tracking dependency, stuck damage types, lower speed. Not that phoon is generally better at it than mega or blaster domi but it certainly isn't inferior. It not only has the potential to be a great BS but it really is, when you're done training for it you'll maybe change your mind.

AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2009.09.02 21:42:00 - [885]
 

Edited by: AstroPhobic on 02/09/2009 21:41:56
Quote:
Yes but your phoon is bad. You simply sacrifice too much tank in favour of too little damage gain. Losing 20k ehp for handful of dps (that without gang or possible implant bonus which would further increase the difference) is hardly rational. A BS with below 100k ehp is simply too thin for what it usually has to deal with and would melt too fast. Especially in the case of a raven which is automatic primary magnet, such a thin tank would be a bad idea.


Kind of depends on the gang size I suppose. The phoon has the advantage of not being insta-primary due to the possibilities of fit. When we look at the raven though, I think it's a fairly rational fit. A boosted setup won't have enough burst tank to last through even a mid sized gang, and no sustainability at all of course. I plan on trying out a full range of fits (solo, so probably a 20km) out in lowsec, I'll let you know how they compare.


Quote:
Quite easily into gank at close range. Mega might do a bit more in raw numbers, but also has more severe limitations such as greater cap dependency, greater tracking dependency, stuck damage types, lower speed. Not that phoon is generally better at it than mega or blaster domi but it certainly isn't inferior. It not only has the potential to be a great BS but it really is, when you're done training for it you'll maybe change your mind.


Yes, someone else mentioned earlier that it should be a little bit newbie friendlier. Loosening fittings will achieve this without really boosting performance for those of us with max skills. All it will do is reduce the amount of compensations made. Also I don't think it to be too ridiculous to allow an arty/cruise/sentry phoon to operate. Currently there's no way in hell. But perhaps a bit of PG... 3x1200, 4x cruise, DLA, bouncers, 6 damage mods, paper? Not sure how much DPS you can get out of it, but it might make a nice psuedo sniper with a range tank.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2009.09.02 22:02:00 - [886]
 

Originally by: Ecky X
TBH I like astro's ideas too, I just want an "asroplus" idea, with my Tempest proposal in place of his.


For the record, I too like your Tempest proposal combined with the rest of Astro's ideas.

-Liang

Spaztick
Terminal Impact
Kairakau
Posted - 2009.09.03 01:50:00 - [887]
 

I'm not supportive of a falloff bonus since it doesn't fit the Tempest (designed to be a mid- to long-range sniper). I know, increasing the falloff would work with artillery as well and let you reach 200km ranges, but adding the falloff to TE, TCs and TLs would do the same.

Ecky X
SniggWaffe
FREE KARTTOON NOW
Posted - 2009.09.03 04:00:00 - [888]
 

Originally by: Spaztick
I'm not supportive of a falloff bonus since it doesn't fit the Tempest (designed to be a mid- to long-range sniper). I know, increasing the falloff would work with artillery as well and let you reach 200km ranges, but adding the falloff to TE, TCs and TLs would do the same.


Now, you have to propose an alternative solution that will make the Tempest better relative to the other 2 minmatar battleships.

Tyler Lowe
DROW Org
Brotherhood of the Spider
Posted - 2009.09.03 04:54:00 - [889]
 

I'm just going to toss this out there again. I don't think any fitting problems with the Typhoon are a ship stats problem, they are a torpedo problem. Missles are upside down IMO. Close range weapons should have smaller fitting requirements than long range weapons. What needs to happen IMO, is a reversal of the fitting reqs between cruise and torps. Cruise should be harder, not easier to fit. Torpedoes have changed alot sine the fitting requirements were decided. I think those fitting requirements need a look-see too.

I agree when it comes to two BCU's. I flat gave up trying to stuff three on the ship. It's not worth the effort. Also, for those that do not want to spend the cash on faction mods, you can always cope with a non energized adaptive hardener. As a second mod, it eased my Phoon fitting considerably (CPU is a ****) without sacrificing too much from my defenses, and it also kept the cost down.

I am also going tp say that I really like the "Marauder" bonus solution to the Tempest. I will toss in a supporting vote for it. I held off because I really don't think CCP will buy it, and I didn't want to take attnetion away from the thread that seems to have the most widespread support.

Spaztick
Terminal Impact
Kairakau
Posted - 2009.09.03 06:17:00 - [890]
 

Originally by: Tyler Lowe
.......
The problem when you do that is you then make it impossible to fit cruise missiles and artillery on the phoon due to ridiculously high power grid requirements.

Originally by: Ecky X
Now, you have to propose an alternative solution that will make the Tempest better relative to the other 2 minmatar battleships.
If you mean at sniping, then the Tempest out performs the Maelstrom per gun. Overall the Maelstrom has a higher alpha and DPS, but it lacks the two utility highs that normally fit remote repair or assault missiles to chase away tacklers. Even if you take away just one gun on the Maelstrom to make room for that the Tempest will do better.

You could also fit cruise launchers to have a little more DPS, but its irrelevant as nobody does that, and the 4/4 split weapon setup on a Tempest only marginally outperforms a 6/x setup at certain ranges (Between 135-160km).

Now, would I use a Maelstrom for sniping? Sure, if I needed just pure damage laid down, or if I feel two utility slots are worth giving up for an extra 200 alpha (it's not).

I would go the way of the Naglfar and give the Tempest 7.5% damage/RoF per level instead, assuming artillery isn't to be touched. That would give the Tempest an alpha of 3371 damage (up from 2997) with RF CL and 3 gyros, and a (way too huge) DPS boost from 284 to 360 or so.

I want to be consistent in how you change up the ship, but the RoF boost from 5% to 7.5% per level is way too much (you outdo the Armageddon and Megathron by a long shot and you start to step on the toes of the Maelstrom), so perhaps only a 7.5% damage boost per level would be the ticket.

Or hell, even if they didn't touch the ship they could just improve artillery and that would be that.

Ecky X
SniggWaffe
FREE KARTTOON NOW
Posted - 2009.09.03 06:40:00 - [891]
 

Originally by: Spaztick
......



That's just it. I don't consider 2 utility highslots to be equivalent to more EHP, a better slot layout, a bigger dronebay, a tanking bonys, and (marginally) more gun DPS and alpha. Two assault missile launchers will not chase off anything, though a utility slot for remote repairing is about the only saving grace the Tempest has. The Maelstrom has a local tank bonus though, with a slot layout and fittings to use it.

The problem is artillery, but it's also the Tempest. The Phoon and Maelstrom simply do everything the Tempest does, better. I propose a falloff bonus to give it range, both with autocannons and artillery, while keeping the utility slots. Astro wants something similar.

The Armageddon is a fantastic (and cheap) brawler, much like the Phoon, and is welcome in remote rep gangs. The Abaddon is an amazing tank + gank machine, but with little mobility. The Apocalypse did nothing better than these two ships, and I think CCP got it right with a range bonus. Give the Tempest a range bonus that is meaningful to both short and longrange weapons, which will give it a role not already covered.

Tyler Lowe
DROW Org
Brotherhood of the Spider
Posted - 2009.09.03 07:55:00 - [892]
 

Originally by: Spaztick
Originally by: Tyler Lowe
.......
The problem when you do that is you then make it impossible to fit cruise missiles and artillery on the phoon due to ridiculously high power grid requirements.



You mean like this?
2x RCUII
2x BCUII
2x GyroII
1x Tracking Enhancer II

2x Sensor Booster II
2x Tracking Comp II

4x 1400mm II
4x Siege Launcher II (Insert altered Cruise Launcher here)

Try that in EFT. I think you will find that it fits at advanced weapon upgrades level 2. I can't imagine why anyone would want to do this, but it's very easy to fit for this role.

Eli Porter
Posted - 2009.09.03 08:25:00 - [893]
 

Once you boost the Tempest+Large Projectiles, the Phoon's SP requirement problem will be less apparent, as the Tempest will come closer to it in performance at RR gangs. As it is, the Phoon is a great SR RR boat, and asking for a boost on it just takes away the much-needed spotlight on the Tempest.

Nishachara
True Enlightenment
Posted - 2009.09.03 09:42:00 - [894]
 

Edited by: Nishachara on 03/09/2009 09:42:17
I apologize for not reading the whole topic...I read first 15 pages or so Very Happy
And i reply in support of this topic...

I am a relative new player and sometimes i am a little bit angry coz ccp didnt write at the character creation screen that playing with minmatars is eve on hard mode Smile

I mostly go with one or two of my RL friends to class3 wh sites and kill sleepers there...so i use mini BSs a lot ... I didnt pvp a lot with BSs (one or two times ) and imao i am a little to young char for that anyway.

In my experience maelstrom is only mini BS that somewhat usefull (i dont have skills for flying phoon properly and tempest does not have either gank or tank for sleeper sites)... But i cripple our gang in two ways coz i am a minmatar with shield tank (RR gang is hard to set up :P ) and projectile weapons (my friend almost lost his ship coz i have to fight in faloff and dont do enough damage with artillery )...

...and not to mention jokes that minmatar BSs are crap on my and minies expense... Very Happy

Anyway i think that projectile weapons should be fixed in some way...and maybe that way mini BSs will be better...

And as for the tempest...my other friend flew it few times with us and try all the different fits (with help from older more experienced players)...and to make long story short...its crap...
We constantly had to RR him...he didnt do enough dps..etc...

Hope this thred will get things moving Very Happy


Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Emptiness.
Posted - 2009.09.03 13:57:00 - [895]
 

Something tempest could get is a HEALTHY boost into its CPU values and a smallers boost on its PG value. That would help the ship if ccp still wants to keep it as a "versatile ship" allowing new intertesting fittings, like for example LArge shield transfers.... or MWD + AB combos... etc....

Of course this is a side fix, not a fix by itself but a minor boost that could enhance any suboptimal fix a bit.

Mysteriax
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.09.03 14:08:00 - [896]
 

Originally by: Spaztick
Originally by: Tyler Lowe
.......
The problem when you do that is you then make it impossible to fit cruise missiles and artillery on the phoon due to ridiculously high power grid requirements.

Originally by: Ecky X
Now, you have to propose an alternative solution that will make the Tempest better relative to the other 2 minmatar battleships.
If you mean at sniping, then the Tempest out performs the Maelstrom per gun. Overall the Maelstrom has a higher alpha and DPS, but it lacks the two utility highs that normally fit remote repair or assault missiles to chase away tacklers. Even if you take away just one gun on the Maelstrom to make room for that the Tempest will do better.

You could also fit cruise launchers to have a little more DPS, but its irrelevant as nobody does that, and the 4/4 split weapon setup on a Tempest only marginally outperforms a 6/x setup at certain ranges (Between 135-160km).

Now, would I use a Maelstrom for sniping? Sure, if I needed just pure damage laid down, or if I feel two utility slots are worth giving up for an extra 200 alpha (it's not).

I would go the way of the Naglfar and give the Tempest 7.5% damage/RoF per level instead, assuming artillery isn't to be touched. That would give the Tempest an alpha of 3371 damage (up from 2997) with RF CL and 3 gyros, and a (way too huge) DPS boost from 284 to 360 or so.

I want to be consistent in how you change up the ship, but the RoF boost from 5% to 7.5% per level is way too much (you outdo the Armageddon and Megathron by a long shot and you start to step on the toes of the Maelstrom), so perhaps only a 7.5% damage boost per level would be the ticket.

Or hell, even if they didn't touch the ship they could just improve artillery and that would be that.


If you can make me a pest fitting DD proof which is close to the setup posted below in terms of DPS and range and actually have useful high slots please post it for me.

[Maelstrom, PVP shield]
Damage Control II
Reactor Control Unit II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II

Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II

1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L

Large Projectile Locus Coordinator I
Large Projectile Locus Coordinator I
Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I


Warrior II x5
Heavy Shield Maintenance Bot I x3

Yes this fitting is DD proof even without gangbonusses dont let EFT uniform damage distribution fool you.

Not to mention the rigs on this fit are dirt cheap :)

Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Emptiness.
Posted - 2009.09.03 14:17:00 - [897]
 

Originally by: Mysteriax
Originally by: Spaztick
Originally by: Tyler Lowe
.......
The problem when you do that is you then make it impossible to fit cruise missiles and artillery on the phoon due to ridiculously high power grid requirements.

Originally by: Ecky X
Now, you have to propose an alternative solution that will make the Tempest better relative to the other 2 minmatar battleships.
If you mean at sniping, then the Tempest out performs the Maelstrom per gun. Overall the Maelstrom has a higher alpha and DPS, but it lacks the two utility highs that normally fit remote repair or assault missiles to chase away tacklers. Even if you take away just one gun on the Maelstrom to make room for that the Tempest will do better.

You could also fit cruise launchers to have a little more DPS, but its irrelevant as nobody does that, and the 4/4 split weapon setup on a Tempest only marginally outperforms a 6/x setup at certain ranges (Between 135-160km).

Now, would I use a Maelstrom for sniping? Sure, if I needed just pure damage laid down, or if I feel two utility slots are worth giving up for an extra 200 alpha (it's not).

I would go the way of the Naglfar and give the Tempest 7.5% damage/RoF per level instead, assuming artillery isn't to be touched. That would give the Tempest an alpha of 3371 damage (up from 2997) with RF CL and 3 gyros, and a (way too huge) DPS boost from 284 to 360 or so.

I want to be consistent in how you change up the ship, but the RoF boost from 5% to 7.5% per level is way too much (you outdo the Armageddon and Megathron by a long shot and you start to step on the toes of the Maelstrom), so perhaps only a 7.5% damage boost per level would be the ticket.

Or hell, even if they didn't touch the ship they could just improve artillery and that would be that.


If you can make me a pest fitting DD proof which is close to the setup posted below in terms of DPS and range and actually have useful high slots please post it for me.

[Maelstrom, PVP shield]
Damage Control II
Reactor Control Unit II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II

Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II

1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L

Large Projectile Locus Coordinator I
Large Projectile Locus Coordinator I
Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I


Warrior II x5
Heavy Shield Maintenance Bot I x3

Yes this fitting is DD proof even without gangbonusses dont let EFT uniform damage distribution fool you.

Not to mention the rigs on this fit are dirt cheap :)


If the tempest could drop the RC to sniper fit and was WAY more agile AND got more locking range Then its survivability could raise enough to be a match for that.

Imagine you could make a tempest with 1 locus 6 guns and MWD with NO fitting mods. That would make it a much more viable option. Also would be able to fit resists both on armor and a Invul field on last mid for bufferage only. Result agile ship that can warp out more easily and that can barely.. but surely tank 1 DD (but not possible to push it for 2 DD so balanced)....

add a 7.5% damage bonus for extra oomph on alpha and you have exactly my proposal. And that woudl make the tempest a VIABLE.. although not stellar sniper.

Spaztick
Terminal Impact
Kairakau
Posted - 2009.09.03 19:12:00 - [898]
 

Originally by: Tyler Lowe

...
You're missing the MWD. I would come back and fix your fits for something other than EFT Warrior-ing.

Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Something tempest could get is a HEALTHY boost into its CPU values and a smallers boost on its PG value. That would help the ship if ccp still wants to keep it as a "versatile ship" allowing new intertesting fittings, like for example LArge shield transfers.... or MWD + AB combos... etc....

Of course this is a side fix, not a fix by itself but a minor boost that could enhance any suboptimal fix a bit.
[Tempest, Niddy with guns]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Reactor Control Unit II

Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets
Sensor Booster II
Sensor Booster II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed

1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Carbonized Lead L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Carbonized Lead L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Carbonized Lead L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Carbonized Lead L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Carbonized Lead L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Carbonized Lead L
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter

[empty rig slot]
[empty rig slot]
[empty rig slot]

That can run about a minute of RR from both shield and armor or 2 and a half minutes of one. It would last longer with a cap booster, but I was focusing more on a pure sniping role with the remote reps as a secondary thing. Is it worth it? Who knows, I haven't bothered doing the math or running a simulation.

Originally by: Mysteriax
Yes this fitting is DD proof even without gangbonusses dont let EFT uniform damage distribution fool you.

Not to mention the rigs on this fit are dirt cheap :)
I would not say that fit is DD proof; an Avatar or Erebus would kill that in one doomsday and it would barely survive a Ragnarok or Leviathan, and that's assuming you're at full shields when it goes off. Still, the fit is a good one and puts out more DPS than a Tempest, but I can get a similar fit on a Tempest with a little more EHP for surviving a doomsday, along with better tracking and 2 armor reps in the high (or 1 armor and 1 shield with a CPU implant):

[Tempest, DD-prewf]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Reactor Control Unit II
Damage Control II

Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range
Sensor Booster II
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II

1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Large Remote Armor Repair System II

Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Large Core Defence Field Extender I
Large Core Defence Field Extender I


Heavy Shield Maintenance Bot II x3

The optimal is much lower because of the change of rigs, but I wouldn't have fit optimal rigs on the Maelstrom fit and would've gone for an extender and em rig.

I sacrifice about 20 dps and 200 alpha for a similar fit with remote reps, with similar EHP and higher EHP in the shields for any given damage type.

The Tempest isn't terrible as people make it out to be, but I still feel artillery are absolutely terrible. (Maybe a 1600mm artillery gun as an oversized weapon would work much like the Tachyons? I'm not sure, I always felt Tachyons were meant solely for the Paladin.

Sionide
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.09.03 19:18:00 - [899]
 

Hah, wow I can't believe this thread is still going.

Leaving Eve for over a year and Pest/proj/art probs still around. Well props to all that have stayed with it. I hope something does improve because I am not sure why (perhaps I am deeply disturbed), but I want to fly the Pest. Unfortunately, as others have already stated it needs to be looked at; as well as, phoon (unless you have like 40 mil sp dedicated to combat).

Seriously Bored
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.09.03 19:31:00 - [900]
 

Edited by: Seriously Bored on 03/09/2009 19:32:38
Originally by: Spaztick

The optimal is much lower because of the change of rigs, but I wouldn't have fit optimal rigs on the Maelstrom fit and would've gone for an extender and em rig.



You're also short a Tracking Computer with an Optimal Script too. So your DD proof fit now has what, 60% of the range of a similar Maelstrom? Doesn't that totally defeat the point of sniping to begin with?

Quote:

I sacrifice about 20 dps and 200 alpha for a similar fit with remote reps, with similar EHP and higher EHP in the shields for any given damage type.



I'm not meaning to pick apart your post, but you have given up way, way more than 20dps. Once you consider the damage at the same range, you've negated your fit's purpose. Mysteriax's Maelstrom would just barely sc**** by with its range, and yours has even less.

Your first Tempest fit is more interesting, I'll admit. But it still looks like it would go up in a puff of smoke.

EDIT: Apparently CCP doesn't like sc-ra-pi-ng.


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