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Tyler Lowe
DROW Org
Brotherhood of the Spider
Posted - 2009.08.30 03:24:00 - [811]
 

Edited by: Tyler Lowe on 30/08/2009 03:30:53
Edited by: Tyler Lowe on 30/08/2009 03:30:18
I see what you intend with the rate of fire change now, and I'm good with it.

What I meant to say was to move a high to a low. For some reason, my reply box refuses to scroll down on this forum, so I can't see what I'm typing until after I type it out, manually scrolling down.ugh

I couldn't initially decide between med and low, and introducing a med falls into line with the planned changes for the Munnin, but in the end, I settled on a low slot and missed it in my edit, sorry about that one. If we are talking about a 7/5/7 layout with one weapon to bonus with weapon upgrades, situationally, I will fly the new pest, even if it's made less durable than a Typhoon.

(edit) On the torps, try that fitting with cruise launchers and you'll see what I'm getting at. Close range weapons normally = lighter fitting reqs, not increased PG and CPU. Reverse the two.... make cruise harder to fit. They are in theory a long range weapon, certainly longer range than Torps anyway, and the fitting problems on the Typhoon go away.

Roland Thorne
Minmatar
Jian Products Engineering Group
Posted - 2009.08.30 03:48:00 - [812]
 

The utility of the pest is one of its strong points, and removing a high and placing it anywhere else just doesn't make sense. Either way it starts looking like either the Mael or the 'phoon. Also, 100% damage with 4 gun slots is the sort of thing you would expect to see on a faction ship, not on a tier 2 BS.

AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2009.08.30 03:52:00 - [813]
 

Originally by: Ecky X

It really is important though. Minmater ought to have at least one battleship which is useful on the field, even if it doesn't compete directly with rails and lasers, and that's the one thing I feel your proposal lacks. Huge alpha is simply not useful in fleets, and even with 10% extra optimal, artillery will fall short of other long range weapon systems. You either need to give Minmatar a ship with enough range, or a ship with enough damage that it wont be ignored despite its lack of range. I feel my fix gives a little of each, though perhaps not enough.

In my alliance, all of the Tempest pilots get made fun of... and you know what Pandemic says about them. "You're better off blowing up all the Tempests in your fleet, then engaging at 210km", or something along those lines.


Yeah, it's definitely a weakness within my suggestions. The slight optimal push makes it a little bit better around 180km, with the extra bit of falloff on a pest letting you hit more effectively in that range. 200-210 though it would be pretty useless. I'd like to push the maelstrom into the sniper ship, but you can't really change either of the bonuses. I can't think of an easy fix without completely undoing about half of the other proposed, though.

Tyler Lowe
DROW Org
Brotherhood of the Spider
Posted - 2009.08.30 04:07:00 - [814]
 

Edited by: Tyler Lowe on 30/08/2009 04:07:59
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: Ecky X

It really is important though. Minmater ought to have at least one battleship which is useful on the field, even if it doesn't compete directly with rails and lasers, and that's the one thing I feel your proposal lacks. Huge alpha is simply not useful in fleets, and even with 10% extra optimal, artillery will fall short of other long range weapon systems. You either need to give Minmatar a ship with enough range, or a ship with enough damage that it wont be ignored despite its lack of range. I feel my fix gives a little of each, though perhaps not enough.

In my alliance, all of the Tempest pilots get made fun of... and you know what Pandemic says about them. "You're better off blowing up all the Tempests in your fleet, then engaging at 210km", or something along those lines.


Yeah, it's definitely a weakness within my suggestions. The slight optimal push makes it a little bit better around 180km, with the extra bit of falloff on a pest letting you hit more effectively in that range. 200-210 though it would be pretty useless. I'd like to push the maelstrom into the sniper ship, but you can't really change either of the bonuses. I can't think of an easy fix without completely undoing about half of the other proposed, though.


What if you were to change optimal scripts and tracking enhancers to also increase falloff? Wouldn't that push the falloff for artillery further enough out that they gain at least some effectiveness at ~200KM? They changed tracking disrupters to effect falloff, but never did the same for the modules that enhance range.

Roland Thorne
Minmatar
Jian Products Engineering Group
Posted - 2009.08.30 04:10:00 - [815]
 

You know, a simple fix might be to just increase the default locking range and increase damage by 10% on the pest.

AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2009.08.30 04:10:00 - [816]
 

Originally by: Tyler Lowe
What if you were to change optimal scripts and tracking enhancers to also increase falloff? Wouldn't that push the falloff for artillery further enough out that they gain at least some effectiveness at 210KM-250KM? They changed tracking disrupters to effect falloff, but never did the same for the modules that enhance range.


It would certainly help. I haven't seen any real reason why the range script shouldn't affect falloff. In fact, I believe the reason why it's not ingame right now is because of the dev who was scared that vagabonds would abuse TEs and become the ultimate solo kite boat. Laughing Logic and numbers have never been the focal point for the CCP balancing team.

Ecky X
SniggWaffe
FREE KARTTOON NOW
Posted - 2009.08.30 05:26:00 - [817]
 

Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: Ecky X

It really is important though. Minmater ought to have at least one battleship which is useful on the field, even if it doesn't compete directly with rails and lasers, and that's the one thing I feel your proposal lacks. Huge alpha is simply not useful in fleets, and even with 10% extra optimal, artillery will fall short of other long range weapon systems. You either need to give Minmatar a ship with enough range, or a ship with enough damage that it wont be ignored despite its lack of range. I feel my fix gives a little of each, though perhaps not enough.

In my alliance, all of the Tempest pilots get made fun of... and you know what Pandemic says about them. "You're better off blowing up all the Tempests in your fleet, then engaging at 210km", or something along those lines.


Yeah, it's definitely a weakness within my suggestions. The slight optimal push makes it a little bit better around 180km, with the extra bit of falloff on a pest letting you hit more effectively in that range. 200-210 though it would be pretty useless. I'd like to push the maelstrom into the sniper ship, but you can't really change either of the bonuses. I can't think of an easy fix without completely undoing about half of the other proposed, though.


Remember though, that it will be doing 10% less DPS.

Caroline Nikon
Posted - 2009.08.30 11:20:00 - [818]
 

Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: Ecky X

It really is important though. Minmater ought to have at least one battleship which is useful on the field, even if it doesn't compete directly with rails and lasers, and that's the one thing I feel your proposal lacks. Huge alpha is simply not useful in fleets, and even with 10% extra optimal, artillery will fall short of other long range weapon systems. You either need to give Minmatar a ship with enough range, or a ship with enough damage that it wont be ignored despite its lack of range. I feel my fix gives a little of each, though perhaps not enough.

In my alliance, all of the Tempest pilots get made fun of... and you know what Pandemic says about them. "You're better off blowing up all the Tempests in your fleet, then engaging at 210km", or something along those lines.


Yeah, it's definitely a weakness within my suggestions. The slight optimal push makes it a little bit better around 180km, with the extra bit of falloff on a pest letting you hit more effectively in that range. 200-210 though it would be pretty useless. I'd like to push the maelstrom into the sniper ship, but you can't really change either of the bonuses. I can't think of an easy fix without completely undoing about half of the other proposed, though.


well my proposal IS making tempest clearly the sniper (even its flavor test say its supposed to be long range), at least the agile sniper.. and when you want DD tank go for maesltrom.

Minmatar CAN be made into reasonable snipers.. EVEN if ccp does not boost range. Just need other main reason to use its power. I still think that should be the old alpha. My proposal gives a MERE 12.5% boost on alpha. As I said is a very light weight proposal. More would be far better. Ideally? 7.5% damage per level... and 5% damage per level.. but I am sure there are paranoid people that somehow would try to stop a boost on tempest that would give it a 37.5% boost on one characteristic... even if those people made nothing when APOC got exactly the same thing (but on range)

Also CCP must make the tempest easier to fit if to be a success as sniper. That allows it to fit 3 range modules (when most snipers can go with 2 only)

AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2009.08.30 16:12:00 - [819]
 

Edited by: AstroPhobic on 30/08/2009 16:23:04
Originally by: Ecky X
Remember though, that it will be doing 10% less DPS.


Right. Would it be unethical to edit in a 12.5% damage bonus instead of 10% for the tempest? Since it's already got the support of everyone who's posted. Perhaps if it comes with a note.

Note: While this damage bonus looks high, it would be closer to the equivalent of it's past bonuses than the 10% damage/level. The past bonuses gave it 6*1.25/.75 = 10 effective turrets. 10% gives it 6 * 1.5 = 9 effective turrets. 12.5% gives it 6*1.6 = 9.6 effective turrets, which is pretty darn close.

I think that would do.

Tyler Lowe
DROW Org
Brotherhood of the Spider
Posted - 2009.08.30 19:18:00 - [820]
 

You could also just give the Tempest a 7.5% per level rate of fire bonus, 10% falloff per level, 7 turret slots, and the Maelstrom a 5% per level damage bonus with 8 turret slots, and then do a rebalance of large projectiles. 9.6 vs 10 turrets is very close, and each ship would have a more clearly defined intended role. "Versatility" is well and good, but it should come from a decent selection of roles within a ship class, not a lack of focus within individual ships IMO.

Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Emptiness.
Posted - 2009.08.30 19:46:00 - [821]
 

Originally by: Tyler Lowe
You could also just give the Tempest a 7.5% per level rate of fire bonus, 10% falloff per level, 7 turret slots, and the Maelstrom a 5% per level damage bonus with 8 turret slots, and then do a rebalance of large projectiles. 9.6 vs 10 turrets is very close, and each ship would have a more clearly defined intended role. "Versatility" is well and good, but it should come from a decent selection of roles within a ship class, not a lack of focus within individual ships IMO.


problem is maelstrom cannot be made a sniper ship with that nonsense shield tank bonus. If you tweak it enough to be a GOOD sniper than it will be both best sniper and best brawler than tempest. The shield boost bonus simply settles that maelstrom is superior on close combat.

Tempest losss of firepower with a 10% damage bonus can be remediated by more drones. On long range engagement where drones not very useful the increase in falloff, clip size and alpha will more than compensate for the loss of base DPS.



AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2009.08.30 19:47:00 - [822]
 

I think we should be careful. I don't know if orakkus planned for this to be voting between the options or voting for the buff themselves. If these proposals are meant to grab CSM and ccp attention, it would be best to keep changes to the proposals at a minimum. For whatever reason mine seems to have grabbed the most attention, and I'd be willing to work with you guys on a more final draft if needed. It's rare to see a buff that big without some serious backlash, and I'm pretty surprised that we haven't gotten a single post without support.

Tyler Lowe
DROW Org
Brotherhood of the Spider
Posted - 2009.08.30 19:54:00 - [823]
 

Originally by: Kagura Nikon

problem is maelstrom cannot be made a sniper ship with that nonsense shield tank bonus. If you tweak it enough to be a GOOD sniper than it will be both best sniper and best brawler than tempest. The shield boost bonus simply settles that maelstrom is superior on close combat.



I agree with that, which is why I believe the active tanking bonus really, really needs to be a resistance bonus, but people are probably correct, CCP most likely will not go for it. That makes too much sense for it to be a Minmatar design.Mad

AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2009.08.30 20:20:00 - [824]
 

Originally by: Tyler Lowe
You could also just give the Tempest a 7.5% per level rate of fire bonus, 10% falloff per level, 7 turret slots, and the Maelstrom a 5% per level damage bonus with 8 turret slots, and then do a rebalance of large projectiles. 9.6 vs 10 turrets is very close, and each ship would have a more clearly defined intended role. "Versatility" is well and good, but it should come from a decent selection of roles within a ship class, not a lack of focus within individual ships IMO.


I think the bigger issue is how the tier system works and their current styles. The maelstrom is a fat pig, period. It tend to form better towards the roles that other battleships due, namely gank+tank. A big part of smaller gang and lowsec combat is agility and speed. My changes make them nearly polar opposites - the tempest becomes an oversized hurricane and the maelstrom is a big brick with a big shield.

Optimally I want the maelstrom to be a sniper mostly due to the "fatness" content. It's tier 3 - it has a longer locking range (iirc), more EHP, it's slower. I don't see any way around the shield boost bonus though, I think it simply has to stay. The problem with an optimal bonus(over a shield boost) is it then is completely shoed into a PVE and fleet combat boat only. The bonus will be worthless when considering ACs. But if you add a big enough falloff bonus to make it better in fleet combat, it becomes (even more of) an AC machine.

I don't have any issues with the tempest being a sniper, except for the fact that I don't see a way to do it without completely buggering up the small gang bit. Maybe I'm biased, but it's just a plain old low sec pirate boat. A quick guns blazing paper tank or massive damage log/KM *****. I'm starting to think I overdid the alpha bit (would be about 1.75x what we have now), but perhaps it's too late. Changing the tempest to a 7.5% ROF would be the same as a 12.5% damage, and be perhaps a little bit more fleet combat friendly.

Ecky X
SniggWaffe
FREE KARTTOON NOW
Posted - 2009.08.30 20:31:00 - [825]
 

Originally by: Tyler Lowe
You could also just give the Tempest a 7.5% per level rate of fire bonus, 10% falloff per level, 7 turret slots, and the Maelstrom a 5% per level damage bonus with 8 turret slots, and then do a rebalance of large projectiles. 9.6 vs 10 turrets is very close, and each ship would have a more clearly defined intended role. "Versatility" is well and good, but it should come from a decent selection of roles within a ship class, not a lack of focus within individual ships IMO.



I agree that versatility isn't what it used to be, but look at how bonus dependent the Tempest become once you change its bonuses like that. It would rely more heavily on BS V than any other battleship, and I feel that's a problem.


Originally by: Roland Thorne
The utility of the pest is one of its strong points, and removing a high and placing it anywhere else just doesn't make sense. Either way it starts looking like either the Mael or the 'phoon. Also, 100% damage with 4 gun slots is the sort of thing you would expect to see on a faction ship, not on a tier 2 BS.



And before the Nightmare change, people said the bonus only belonged on T2 battleships, not in faction.


The issue is this: Projectiles are so crappy to begin with, you need a full rack of them and a large bonus to make them competitive. You simply can't make the Tempest have decent damage output and keep the utility highs, without giving a very large damage per level bonus. I feel the role bonus from a Marauder is an elegant solution, as it allows the Tempest to keep its utility highs, and achieve decent damage without a ridiculously large bonus.

Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
Posted - 2009.08.30 20:34:00 - [826]
 

Just giving tempest way more alpha, no need to fit RCU.. falloff on track computers.. and
Done.. . tempest is a sniper..... No it doe snto need more than 152 km IF its alpha strike advantage raises enough so that Fleet commanders consider groups of ships at 160 km not 180....

Maesltrom is not good as a sniper EXACTLY because its fat! Snipers need to realign and warp out as their main defense.

Roland Thorne
Minmatar
Jian Products Engineering Group
Posted - 2009.08.30 21:37:00 - [827]
 

The tempest is the only minmatar sniper, and it is also the pirate/gank partner to the hurricane. Increase the damage, fix the ammo, and make it way less a pig then the mael, and it should fill both roles very well.

tbh, I felt that astro's plan fit this better then the rest, and others seem to agree as well.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2009.08.30 21:40:00 - [828]
 

Edited by: Liang Nuren on 30/08/2009 21:40:54
Originally by: Seishi Maru
Just giving tempest way more alpha, no need to fit RCU.. falloff on track computers.. and
Done.. . tempest is a sniper..... No it doe snto need more than 152 km IF its alpha strike advantage raises enough so that Fleet commanders consider groups of ships at 160 km not 180....

Maesltrom is not good as a sniper EXACTLY because its fat! Snipers need to realign and warp out as their main defense.


The Maelstrom is a better sniper because it has more alpha, more dps, and more EHP. Your proposed changes will not change this, and thus they do not achieve your goal.

Ed: Hell yeah! Take a few months off and end up in the noob corp! I'm such a noob!

AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2009.08.30 21:40:00 - [829]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Seishi Maru
Just giving tempest way more alpha, no need to fit RCU.. falloff on track computers.. and
Done.. . tempest is a sniper..... No it doe snto need more than 152 km IF its alpha strike advantage raises enough so that Fleet commanders consider groups of ships at 160 km not 180....

Maesltrom is not good as a sniper EXACTLY because its fat! Snipers need to realign and warp out as their main defense.


The Maelstrom is a better sniper because it has more alpha, more dps, and more EHP. Your proposed changes will not change this, and thus they do not achieve your goal.


!

<3

Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
Posted - 2009.08.30 21:55:00 - [830]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 30/08/2009 21:40:54
Originally by: Seishi Maru
Just giving tempest way more alpha, no need to fit RCU.. falloff on track computers.. and
Done.. . tempest is a sniper..... No it doe snto need more than 152 km IF its alpha strike advantage raises enough so that Fleet commanders consider groups of ships at 160 km not 180....

Maesltrom is not good as a sniper EXACTLY because its fat! Snipers need to realign and warp out as their main defense.


The Maelstrom is a better sniper because it has more alpha, more dps, and more EHP. Your proposed changes will not change this, and thus they do not achieve your goal.

Ed: Hell yeah! Take a few months off and end up in the noob corp! I'm such a noob!


In fact NO.. the HP difference is only significant when you are trygin to tank 1 DD. Tankign several DD is impossible in real sniper fits. And Tripple doomsdays are the norm nowadays. So beign able to warp out fast is the only effective defense against large titans groups. And on that tempest is already superior (not to forget.. cheaper if everythgin fails)

My proposal is exactly give more alpha to tempest so it surpasses maelstrom alpha. Its a stategrically inferior choice to bring a ship that cost 50% more and has much more difficulty escaping from bubbles and warping of ASAP. The main hindrance for that is the stupid MWD trick.

Surviving in a sniper fight depends on 3 things.. LUCK, being out of range or being able to get the frack out asap. Fat whales are the last to get out of the bubbles so are the ones tackled ..the faster and more agile ships in gang are the ones more likely to survive. Its not so small the number of times i was in a "PLATED TRIMARK "sniper gang.. with a NORMAL sniper.. and while everyone died I was able to get out of the bubble before DD.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2009.08.30 22:05:00 - [831]
 

Originally by: Seishi Maru
In fact NO.. the HP difference is only significant when you are trygin to tank 1 DD. Tankign several DD is impossible in real sniper fits. And Tripple doomsdays are the norm nowadays. So beign able to warp out fast is the only effective defense against large titans groups. And on that tempest is already superior (not to forget.. cheaper if everythgin fails)


It's generally not that hard to warp out in a Maelstrom. Afterall, most of the time you're pre-aligned anyway so it's not like it's a big deal.

Quote:
My proposal is exactly give more alpha to tempest so it surpasses maelstrom alpha. Its a stategrically inferior choice to bring a ship that cost 50% more and has much more difficulty escaping from bubbles and warping of ASAP. The main hindrance for that is the stupid MWD trick.



Your "stupid trick" is and has been standard Eve procedure for years. Making balancing decisions based on it going away is a bad idea. You also didn't tell us how (or perhaps I missed it in a cursory inspection) you plan to improve the Tempest's alpha strike above that of the Maelstrom.

Quote:
Surviving in a sniper fight depends on 3 things.. LUCK, being out of range or being able to get the frack out asap. Fat whales are the last to get out of the bubbles so are the ones tackled ..the faster and more agile ships in gang are the ones more likely to survive. Its not so small the number of times i was in a "PLATED TRIMARK "sniper gang.. with a NORMAL sniper.. and while everyone died I was able to get out of the bubble before DD.


The Maelstrom is still faster and more agile than the armor tanked battleships. Thus, it is not a problem. Also, if every po-dunk alliance has 3 titans these days, I guess I'll spend the rest of my days in Lowsec, where I should have been all along.

-Liang

AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2009.08.30 22:34:00 - [832]
 

Liang, what are your opinions on my suggested changes? Do you have any ideas on the weaknesses?

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2009.08.30 22:37:00 - [833]
 

Originally by: AstroPhobic
Liang, what are your opinions on my suggested changes? Do you have any ideas on the weaknesses?


I'm sorry Astro, my eyes may have glazed reading over some of the thread. Can you link them?

-Liang

AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2009.08.30 22:38:00 - [834]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Liang, what are your opinions on my suggested changes? Do you have any ideas on the weaknesses?


I'm sorry Astro, my eyes may have glazed reading over some of the thread. Can you link them?

-Liang


My suggestion thread

There's 3 other ones that Orakkus just bumped in the assembly hall.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2009.08.30 23:01:00 - [835]
 

Originally by: AstroPhobic
My suggestion thread

There's 3 other ones that Orakkus just bumped in the assembly hall.


Comments:
- Not sure I suppport only a 50% boost in alpha. Alpha has to be something fairly spectacular if it's not going to be a liability in fleet combat. By my calculations (rough and back of the napkin), this gives the Maelstorm 5550 alpha (382 DPS) and the Tempest 6250 (299 DPS). Maaaybe. Not like I plan to do any fleet combat if Titans are really so widespread that every podunk alliance is sporting 3 of them. ugh
- The Muninn will still suck. Both of the utility highs need to go - most likely to a mid and a low.
- Falloff suggestions look sound, but I think I would have centered the falloff rebalancing around the lowest tier of AC.
- The Phoon needs another turret and missile slot, not just more fittings. The skill requirements are far too steep.

Overall? Better than now, I think.

-Liang

Karl Luckner
Caldari
Posted - 2009.08.30 23:02:00 - [836]
 

Well, I've got a bit different view on the matter. I would change some stats on the Tempest, to bring it closer to battlecruisers.
This would include reduction of it's mass, a buff to it's scanres, and a slight buff to it's topspeed.
Then I would change the rof bonus into a tracking bonus, and buff the damage bonus to give it better alpha with artillery.

Autocannons should get in my opinion a buff to its base RoF and a bit tracking, while nerfing it's signature resolution. Spray and pray. As side effect racial e-war would have more impact on AC's performance. Larger AC's should get gradually more falloff.
DPS at optimal should be between lasers and blasters. The downside would be falloff mechanics and high ammo consumption.

Artillery should get a flat out damage mod buff. Additionally, I would reduce fitting requirenments and add more falloff to the larger ones.
Within their optimal, they should therefore be king of alpha and be competitive in DPS.
Downside would be clipsize, tracking and shortest optimal of all longrange weapons.

And since we're at it, make the phoon a shield tank to bring it in line with the smaller splitweapon/missile ships. 8/6/5 slot layout should help getting it's damage output into crazy regions.


AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2009.08.30 23:10:00 - [837]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Not like I plan to do any fleet combat if Titans are really so widespread that every podunk alliance is sporting 3 of them. ugh


They do. I've made my way back to empire/lowsec as well.

Quote:
- The Muninn will still suck. Both of the utility highs need to go - most likely to a mid and a low.


I don't think it will be as good as the zealot, but it would be more in line with the eagle at 100km. I'm not sure how well it's supposed to perform in comparison to the zealot. I would endorse both highs moving, but I thought one would be enough coupled with the artillery changes.

Quote:
- Falloff suggestions look sound, but I think I would have centered the falloff rebalancing around the lowest tier of AC.


I try to be moderate for lots of little thumbs up.

Quote:
- The Phoon needs another turret and missile slot, not just more fittings. The skill requirements are far too steep.


I've come to terms with the phoon being what it is. I wouldn't say that another turret and missile slot would be a bad idea, but it wouldn't be quite as necessary if the ammo and AC changes went through. For better or worse I've been working on my skills to fly a phoon properly and I like the ultimate goal.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2009.08.30 23:24:00 - [838]
 

Originally by: AstroPhobic
They do. I've made my way back to empire/lowsec as well.


Well then, that seals the deal.

Quote:
I don't think it will be as good as the zealot, but it would be more in line with the eagle at 100km. I'm not sure how well it's supposed to perform in comparison to the zealot. I would endorse both highs moving, but I thought one would be enough coupled with the artillery changes.


And we're limiting ourselves to what the Eagle can do at 100km because why? It's not like the ship doesn't have a ton of extra range with which to play with.

Quote:
I try to be moderate for lots of little thumbs up.


Fair enough.

Quote:
I've come to terms with the phoon being what it is. I wouldn't say that another turret and missile slot would be a bad idea, but it wouldn't be quite as necessary if the ammo and AC changes went through. For better or worse I've been working on my skills to fly a phoon properly and I like the ultimate goal.


Hmmm... maybe. I'd be willing to bide my time on that anyway. Honestly, I was surprised to see the Phoon on the list of things to change anyway. Maybe you could squeeze a bit of CPU onto the Cyclone? Wink

-Liang

AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2009.08.30 23:35:00 - [839]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
And we're limiting ourselves to what the Eagle can do at 100km because why? It's not like the ship doesn't have a ton of extra range with which to play with.


I was mostly comparing the various sniper HACs at the HAC gang range. I don't think it should eclipse the zealot at 100km, but it should be competitive. The agility/speed change may do enough to bring it back around to 20km where the hurricane currently does better with artillery. It should be without a question the quickest and most agile sniper HAC.

Like I said I wouldn't mind the other high moving too, but the whole moderate thing. I think everyone can agree that the high to med change is a complete upgrade, and the agility goes a long way.

Quote:
Hmmm... maybe. I'd be willing to bide my time on that anyway. Honestly, I was surprised to see the Phoon on the list of things to change anyway. Maybe you could squeeze a bit of CPU onto the Cyclone? Wink

-Liang


I don't have this soft spot for the cyclone that you do. Laughing It doesn't really spring to mind when thinking on minmatar ships.

Regardless, if you're mostly in agreement with the changes, I'd appreciate a little thumb up from you as well. Your support will bring in even more supporters. Wink

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2009.08.30 23:42:00 - [840]
 

Originally by: AstroPhobic
Regardless, if you're mostly in agreement with the changes, I'd appreciate a little thumb up from you as well. Your support will bring in even more supporters. Wink


I was busy reading the various threads. Yours seems far and away the best thought out. My feelings wouldn't be hurt even slightly if they were implemented. I'll give it a thumbs up.

-Liang


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