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Seriously Bored
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.08.25 06:51:00 - [721]
 

Originally by: Omarvelous

I haven't gotten a straight answer on the dps you WANT out of the Tempest.

- 1000 dps? At what range? Will this obsolete a Mega/Rokh/Hyp?


I'll bite. Currently, a stripped down Tempest with 800mm guns, no launchers, does 382 DPS. A stripped down Mega does 481 DPS. A stripped down Apocalypse does 386 DPS. A tempest has TWO projectile damage bonuses. The Apocalypse has no bonuses to damage or RoF whatsoever, and outdamages the Tempest.

I would like the Tempest to do 420 DPS, stripped down, with its turrets at its current range. That would be 10% more damage. I'm fine with losing the missile launchers to do that, because they largely go unused. If you changed the RoF bonus to 7.5% instead of 5%, the Tempest's damage would be 424.6, which still isn't overpowered in relation to the other two ships.

With that damage, a Tempest would have to fight a Mega outside of 15KM to survive, and inside 10KM to survive an Apocalypse. That seems balanced to me.

The Tempest now does decent damage, but still has a poor tanking slot layout, is still heavy, has poor hitpoints in comparison to the other two ships, and likely won't fit as many damage mods if it wants to tank through the fight. NOW you can say that utility slots and capless guns balance it.

Cpt Cosmic
Posted - 2009.08.25 06:56:00 - [722]
 

What I want is:
-tempest fitting buffed thus I can fit it for sniping like a mega (or artillery fitting requirements reduced whatever is better gameplay wise) and dont forget to increase its sucky locking range
-with 2 dmg bonuses it should **** other ships even if it is not as tanky as others but it doesnt. fighting in falloff reduces dmg => this is fine, every weapon has a some kind of disadvantage or should have. blasters have range, projectiles have falloff, but what is laser disadvantage? cap? cap booster anyone? every serious laser pvp bs has one. this is not a laser whine, I want just show you that most of the time fitting lasers on a ship is better than fitting projectiles on a projectile bonused ship. first thing you should do is increase the projectile base dmg atleast on bs sized weaponry. why does the projectile ammo has less base dmg then hybrid and crystal ammo?
-after these change we can see how it works out ingame and on paper and then eventually boost the tempest with e.g. increasing its dmg boni.

Chestrano
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.08.25 09:24:00 - [723]
 

And some other important point is to give tracking computer and tracking enhancer an falloff bonus

Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Emptiness.
Posted - 2009.08.25 11:42:00 - [724]
 

You cannot fix a raw number of dps ads a solid number. Because that depends on fittingns. THe answers given are the only solid and reasonable ones. Basically each bonus on every ship is worth at LEAST a litte bit more than a module.

Example Damage bonus 5% is a bit more than a Damage mod T2. Tracking bonus on mega is worth like a tracking computer... Some ships have bonuses MORE powerfull than that.

All ships get at least 1 useful cool bonus. Tempest need both its bonuses just to ALMOST compensate for its crap base damage. That while having 1 less low slot for fitting damage mods, resulting in even lower dps than other ships.

The extra mid slot on tempest is no match against support when compared to huge drone bays like geddon typhoon, megatron, dominix, no match to massive range like apoc with pulses. Only reason tempest is dangerous to tiny ships is that it uses 2 heavy neutralizers.. because its slot layout is so HORRIBLE that is the only sensible thing to use. But many other ships coudl use neuts as well.


To fix tempest dps basically fix AC. Check maesltrom, now boost aAC until an AC maesltrom is better than a Pulse laser maesltrom.... DONE (no matter if with falloff or Damage or hell I know how.)

I have gallente BS IV and can use only t1 hybrids.. but minmatar BS V and basically perfect projectile skills. No need to say tempest is no match for my dominix.


Also the " tempest weapons cannot be shot" is crap talk on 3/4 of time, sorry but it is. Ogres II and sentries on a dominix have HP of a t1 cruiser. Fit remote reps and keep them magically alive. You can easily fit 2 med RR 2 Neutrons 2 Heavy neuts for more effective dps than tempest more tanks, more versatility, less cost. Only situation drones have SERIOUS issues on a dominix are with smartbombs.

Also piracy at gates is only 0.01% of combat in eve, is not a parameter that can rule balance in the game.



Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Emptiness.
Posted - 2009.08.25 11:55:00 - [725]
 

Oo almost forgot.. and on blaster pilots saying cap usage of guns is a HUGE issue. I fly abaddons as well. and NEVER EVER had any tiny minimal issue with capacitor. And That taking into account an abaddon eats 2 times mroe cap on its guns than the poor blasters do...



No cap usage was something Important back at age of Active tanks and when NOS were common. On age of passive buffers and all out guns.. its an almost irrelevant issue. Lasers eat more cp than anything, even so I see no one screaming BOOST LASERS! Know why? Because damage and range are 85% of the equation on battleship sized guns.. the othr 10% is tracking and 5% is damage type.

The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2009.08.25 12:43:00 - [726]
 

Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Oo almost forgot.. and on blaster pilots saying cap usage of guns is a HUGE issue. I fly abaddons as well. and NEVER EVER had any tiny minimal issue with capacitor. And That taking into account an abaddon eats 2 times mroe cap on its guns than the poor blasters do...



I can confirm that I feel a lot of need to mwd in my Abaddon around simlar to my megathron. Rolling Eyes

Sharp Love
Posted - 2009.08.25 13:15:00 - [727]
 

kessah r u for real ? fleet fit tempest volley is freaking scary, its a great fleet ship as long range bs, ah u have no idea about that, secondaty with 800s and armor tank u have 110k hp with 430dps + drones, 2 remote reps and whole stack of med slots free for mwd cap boosters EW or whatever you like, if u complain about tempest as it is today, u have to be goon alt or really something wrong with you

Orakkus
Minmatar
m3 Corp
Posted - 2009.08.25 13:53:00 - [728]
 

Originally by: Sharp Love
kessah r u for real ? fleet fit tempest volley is freaking scary, its a great fleet ship as long range bs, ah u have no idea about that, secondaty with 800s and armor tank u have 110k hp with 430dps + drones, 2 remote reps and whole stack of med slots free for mwd cap boosters EW or whatever you like, if u complain about tempest as it is today, u have to be goon alt or really something wrong with you


*sigh*

Troll Score of 0/10 (No points cuz you didn't even bother to read the rest of the thread, which blew your "freaking scary" fits away).

AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2009.08.25 15:41:00 - [729]
 

Originally by: Omarvelous
Originally by: AstroPhobic


Instead, I'll ask you this question - what does the tempest do better than the typhoon or maelstrom?




It has more utility mid slots for destroying support ships


I care to disagree. Though it does sport an extra mid on the phoon, it's slower and less agile. The phoon can fit an entire rack of neuts along with cruise and 5 heavy drones, web, tp and point. If that doesn't sound like a support killer, I don't know what is. The tempest is slower and the 5th mid really doesn't give you much oomph except fitting another point. I'd say they're even at best.

The tempest could become the support ship killer, but it needs more speed, more agility, and autos would need some love.

Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
Posted - 2009.08.25 16:26:00 - [730]
 

Originally by: The Djego
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Oo almost forgot.. and on blaster pilots saying cap usage of guns is a HUGE issue. I fly abaddons as well. and NEVER EVER had any tiny minimal issue with capacitor. And That taking into account an abaddon eats 2 times mroe cap on its guns than the poor blasters do...



I can confirm that I feel a lot of need to mwd in my Abaddon around simlar to my megathron. Rolling Eyes


cared to try using that abaddon in 0.0 without MWD to see what happens? Remembers that the abaddon will likely need 1 more cycle of it sMWD to reach same place that megatron does because its fricking slow and heavy? Also while you MWding you are not using your guns usually (just at the end of cycle). Cap injection can deal easily with normal cap usage of a megatron. When under neuts the only thing that changes is that you might not have enough cap to MWD anymore, but very likely will stil have enough to fire. Abaddon would be in same situation .. but each abaddon shot requires you to have a much larger cap pool.

Its a MINIMAL advantage not using cap to fire! Is an advantage, but limited to very very rare situations. 9 in 10 minmatar pilots would LOVELY accept AC to use more capacitor than blasters if we got the extra cap that our ships miss back, if we got 15% damage boost (blasters are on the 35% more damage marks) and if our ships had the HP that blaster ships have above us.

Compared to the disadvantages.. no cap usage on guns is a JOKE!!! Since NOS nerf I NEVER EVER missed chance to fire a single shot because of lack of capacitor!

kessah
Blood Blind
Posted - 2009.08.25 16:39:00 - [731]
 

Edited by: kessah on 25/08/2009 16:39:14
This threads taken on a life of its own, with people posting more in depth numbers and statistics than i did. My argument stands from the first post, but if your going to speak of you own fit for example 1400mm fits with the fleet tempest you will need to read on.

Secondly this is a Tempest thread, not the Fleet Tempest. Neutral

Orakkus
Minmatar
m3 Corp
Posted - 2009.08.25 17:20:00 - [732]
 

Not to damper this, but Sharp Love indicated a Fleet fit Tempest (or a Tempest with a fleet fit), not a Fleet Issue Tempest.

The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2009.08.25 18:50:00 - [733]
 

Originally by: Seishi Maru

cared to try using that abaddon in 0.0 without MWD to see what happens? Remembers that the abaddon will likely need 1 more cycle of it sMWD to reach same place that megatron does because its fricking slow and heavy?


Since reaching the the gate is the main reason you fit a MWD on a gallente BS?

You need to move the Mega into range first to any target, you also need to burn more cap to stay in this range. This is next to no isseu with a puls ship, even if it consumes more cap for shooting the guns(only ships without the cap bonus).

Originally by: Seishi Maru

Also while you MWding you are not using your guns usually (just at the end of cycle). Cap injection can deal easily with normal cap usage of a megatron.


For any ship that is sitting duck? Shure. But PVP donīt consists only of this kind of targets.

Originally by: Seishi Maru

When under neuts the only thing that changes is that you might not have enough cap to MWD anymore, but very likely will stil have enough to fire. Abaddon would be in same situation .. but each abaddon shot requires you to have a much larger cap pool.


Both are screwed, one heavy Neut can cancel 75% of the effect of a medium one, 2 will cancel 75% of the large one. Both ships canīt run the guns with 200 cap every 12/22 seconds.

Originally by: Seishi Maru

Its a MINIMAL advantage not using cap to fire! Is an advantage, but limited to very very rare situations. 9 in 10 minmatar pilots would LOVELY accept AC to use more capacitor than blasters if we got the extra cap that our ships miss back, if we got 15% damage boost (blasters are on the 35% more damage marks) and if our ships had the HP that blaster ships have above us.

Compared to the disadvantages.. no cap usage on guns is a JOKE!!! Since NOS nerf I NEVER EVER missed chance to fire a single shot because of lack of capacitor!


This was discussed a million times before and im not starting a new on it.

Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2009.08.25 18:50:00 - [734]
 

Originally by: Seishi Maru
Originally by: The Djego
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Oo almost forgot.. and on blaster pilots saying cap usage of guns is a HUGE issue. I fly abaddons as well. and NEVER EVER had any tiny minimal issue with capacitor. And That taking into account an abaddon eats 2 times mroe cap on its guns than the poor blasters do...



I can confirm that I feel a lot of need to mwd in my Abaddon around simlar to my megathron. Rolling Eyes


cared to try using that abaddon in 0.0 without MWD to see what happens? Remembers that the abaddon will likely need 1 more cycle of it sMWD to reach same place that megatron does because its fricking slow and heavy? Also while you MWding you are not using your guns usually (just at the end of cycle). Cap injection can deal easily with normal cap usage of a megatron. When under neuts the only thing that changes is that you might not have enough cap to MWD anymore, but very likely will stil have enough to fire. Abaddon would be in same situation .. but each abaddon shot requires you to have a much larger cap pool.

Its a MINIMAL advantage not using cap to fire! Is an advantage, but limited to very very rare situations. 9 in 10 minmatar pilots would LOVELY accept AC to use more capacitor than blasters if we got the extra cap that our ships miss back, if we got 15% damage boost (blasters are on the 35% more damage marks) and if our ships had the HP that blaster ships have above us.

Compared to the disadvantages.. no cap usage on guns is a JOKE!!! Since NOS nerf I NEVER EVER missed chance to fire a single shot because of lack of capacitor!


Do you fly a blaster battleship? Honestly, I think you're ignorant of the cap issue with basters and having to MWD a whole lot more than any Amarr BS to get into optimals...


Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2009.08.25 18:52:00 - [735]
 

Edited by: Omarvelous on 25/08/2009 18:52:51

Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: Omarvelous
Originally by: AstroPhobic


Instead, I'll ask you this question - what does the tempest do better than the typhoon or maelstrom?




It has more utility mid slots for destroying support ships


I care to disagree. Though it does sport an extra mid on the phoon, it's slower and less agile. The phoon can fit an entire rack of neuts along with cruise and 5 heavy drones, web, tp and point. If that doesn't sound like a support killer, I don't know what is. The tempest is slower and the 5th mid really doesn't give you much oomph except fitting another point. I'd say they're even at best.

The tempest could become the support ship killer, but it needs more speed, more agility, and autos would need some love.


OK I agree with this. Tempest needs to go a lot faster. Define 'love' for AC though.

My concern is Minmatar BS pilots asking to buff the Tempest with AC to do what a blaster boat does but better. Give me some numbers on what level of AC performance you'd want ona typical Tempest.

Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2009.08.25 19:01:00 - [736]
 

Originally by: Cpt Cosmic
What I want is:
-tempest fitting buffed thus I can fit it for sniping like a mega (or artillery fitting requirements reduced whatever is better gameplay wise) and dont forget to increase its sucky locking range
-with 2 dmg bonuses it should **** other ships even if it is not as tanky as others but it doesnt. fighting in falloff reduces dmg => this is fine, every weapon has a some kind of disadvantage or should have. blasters have range, projectiles have falloff, but what is laser disadvantage? cap? cap booster anyone? every serious laser pvp bs has one. this is not a laser whine, I want just show you that most of the time fitting lasers on a ship is better than fitting projectiles on a projectile bonused ship. first thing you should do is increase the projectile base dmg atleast on bs sized weaponry. why does the projectile ammo has less base dmg then hybrid and crystal ammo?
-after these change we can see how it works out ingame and on paper and then eventually boost the tempest with e.g. increasing its dmg boni.


- If you want to snipe use the Maelstrom with 8 guns and a damage bonus. Why do you want a second sniper? I don't care about your crap locking range you also lock the FASTEST out of any race - its called game balance.
- *sigh* Where do I being? Do you want to just have a ship with a double damage bonus that does the most damage of any BS? While having extra useful midslots? While having the range of AC and being capless and faster? Why would you fly a blaster boat then?

- Laser whine - lasers are terrible vs t2 minmatar ships - and even with the em resistance nerf, em/therm is still armor's highest defence usually. Its not very practical to fit the most cap hungry weapons on the race with the least ammount of cap - even with cap boosters. Meet 1 ship with a heavy neut and you're completely screwed. If you had complained about scorch I could grant you that - I agree RF EMP needs a boost to be inline with other racial ammo.

I'm trying to say that I want to see solid numbers on what you want our of a Temepst (dps, range, tank, speed) - so I can make sure it doesn't make fly a blaster boat even more obsolete.

Seriously Bored
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.08.25 19:03:00 - [737]
 

Edited by: Seriously Bored on 25/08/2009 19:06:00
Originally by: Omarvelous

My concern is Minmatar BS pilots asking to buff the Tempest with AC to do what a blaster boat does but better. Give me some numbers on what level of AC performance you'd want ona typical Tempest.


Not sure if you're specifically goading an answer from Astro, but I replied to you already when you asked for specific numbers, and you didn't respond. I offered something that would keep ACs from stepping on blaster's toes. From my earlier post:

Originally by: Seriously Bored

I'll bite. Currently, a stripped down Tempest with 800mm guns, no launchers, does 382 DPS. A stripped down Mega does 481 DPS. A stripped down Apocalypse does 386 DPS. A tempest has TWO projectile damage bonuses. The Apocalypse has no bonuses to damage or RoF whatsoever, and outdamages the Tempest.

I would like the Tempest to do 420 DPS, stripped down, with its turrets at its current range. That would be 10% more damage. I'm fine with losing the missile launchers to do that, because they largely go unused. If you changed the RoF bonus to 7.5% instead of 5%, the Tempest's damage would be 424.6, which still isn't overpowered in relation to the other two ships.

With that damage, a Tempest would have to fight a Mega outside of 15KM to survive, and inside 10KM to survive an Apocalypse. That seems balanced to me.

The Tempest now does decent damage, but still has a poor tanking slot layout, is still heavy, has poor hitpoints in comparison to the other two ships, and likely won't fit as many damage mods if it wants to tank through the fight. NOW you can say that utility slots and capless guns balance it.



EDIT:

Originally by: Omarvelous

- Laser whine - lasers are terrible vs t2 minmatar ships - and even with the em resistance nerf, em/therm is still armor's highest defence usually.


And projectiles are garbage against Amarr T2 ships, with their very high explosive and kinetic resists. What's your point?

Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2009.08.25 19:29:00 - [738]
 

Edited by: Omarvelous on 25/08/2009 19:29:10
Originally by: Seriously Bored


Not sure if you're specifically goading an answer from Astro, but I replied to you already when you asked for specific numbers, and you didn't respond. I offered something that would keep ACs from stepping on blaster's toes. From my earlier post:


No - I'm open to answers from everyone. I've flown Minmatar BS, so I can understand some of the issues people are complaining about. Your stats are difficult for me to compare without a fitted ship. Assume you have 2x damage mods comparing ships. I think your statement of engaging a Mega outside of 15km holds true even now. Blaster Megas aren't too effective beyond 15km outside of its non-bonus drones.

- I think you're asking for too much dps on the Tempest. I still think an extra turret hardpoint would be enough - maybe a change to 7.5% damage bonus.
- Increase speed and agility so it can dictate combat range more effectively.
- Increase AC falloff.

Originally by: Seriously Bored
And projectiles are garbage against Amarr T2 ships, with their very high explosive and kinetic resists. What's your point?


Lasers are fixed em/therm - projectiles can swap damage types - and I've done it with good results. I'd use EMP against amarr/caldari/gallente, or phased plasma vs amarr t2, barrage vs gallente/minmatar. People who think swapping ammo isn't practical need to use scouts and prepare for their upcoming fight and fight the most useful ammo prior to engaging. I do it in my missile boats with great success.

The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2009.08.25 19:30:00 - [739]
 

Edited by: The Djego on 25/08/2009 19:35:12
I would like to see a Pest like this:

- 10% damage and 7.5% falloff per Minmatar BS level
- 100/150 Dronebay(compensating the DPS lose and give it more flexibility)
- a bit more speed/agility(5-10%)
- 10-15km more base lock range(for sniping)

So the Tempest even if it would still not be the DPS machine gains a lot more range and also more DPS at range. The extra drone bay helps in small scale and the extra lock range for sniping.

The rest I would fix direct on the weapons:

- bring T1/Faction amno in line to crystals\hybrid charges for base damage -> 10% DPS boost on short range amno
- switch EMP with Fusion(range/damage, explosive should be the main mini close range damagetype)

For Aks:

- give a 10-20% more falloff to the bigger AK tiers(increasing range by fitting bigger guns simlar to lasers\blasters), what increases damage at range if you decide to go for the bigger guns

Artis:

- reduce the ROF by 25%
- increase the damage by 40%(damage boost and more alpha)
- doulbe clip size across the board
- increase tracking to be between beams\rails since the it has the shortest optimal and should be able to relay on a tracking\alpha advantage -> make alphas that count and screw smaller ships



AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2009.08.25 19:42:00 - [740]
 

Originally by: Omarvelous
Define 'love' for AC though.

My concern is Minmatar BS pilots asking to buff the Tempest with AC to do what a blaster boat does but better. Give me some numbers on what level of AC performance you'd want ona typical Tempest.


My changes are always quite moderate, though when running through the numbers it would seem like a rather large boost is needed. I don't know where short range weapon graphs went (was it Aranis? Maybe it was seriously bored), but they depicted a pretty terrible autocannon DPS/range graph.

Anyway, a few or some combination of the following:

30-40% increase in falloff across the board to negate hit quality
Falloff scaling among tiers
EMP <-> Fusion switch
5-10% Damage increase
TE falloff modifier, TC script

Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2009.08.25 20:34:00 - [741]
 

Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: Omarvelous
Define 'love' for AC though.

My concern is Minmatar BS pilots asking to buff the Tempest with AC to do what a blaster boat does but better. Give me some numbers on what level of AC performance you'd want ona typical Tempest.


My changes are always quite moderate, though when running through the numbers it would seem like a rather large boost is needed. I don't know where short range weapon graphs went (was it Aranis? Maybe it was seriously bored), but they depicted a pretty terrible autocannon DPS/range graph.

Anyway, a few or some combination of the following:

30-40% increase in falloff across the board to negate hit quality
Falloff scaling among tiers
EMP <-> Fusion switch
5-10% Damage increase
TE falloff modifier, TC script


I made graphs wayyy back on page 6:

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1130224&page=6

I'm still thinking the ship just needs to move faster to dicatate range.

It can stand for some extra damage from an extra turret hardpoint and maybe the 7.5% damage bonus.

It can stand for some extra falloff.

The goal would be to have a ship that excels in the 20-30km range, and has an ability to stay in that combat envelope.

I'm worried people want to boost the damage so much and keep the 2 utility slots. Then you'd have a ship with blaster boat damage - with further range - and an ability to fully tackle and neut the target. Why fly anything else?

Scorch needs to be fixed - but I'm OK with Amarr ships doing more damage and tanking harder at range - they can't fit any decent ammount of mid slot gear - they're limited to EM/therm - they can't effectively fit 1-2 neuts - and they are slow.

I'm also ok with blaster boats doing more damage and tanking harder <20km. They take a beating just getting into range - they eat up a crap load of cap just getting into range - they're pitifully slow for their small engagement range.

See where I'm coming from? I not opposed to a Minmatar boost - I'm opposed to a boost that will ruin game balance though. If the Temepst tackles, neuts, and shoots (the pinnacle of a pirate BS) - it can't also be a beast at dps and tank. Something's gotta give for balance.

You want gank and tank BS? Fly the Typhoon. A sniper? The Maelstrom. A utility ship great for piracy? The Tempest.

Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2009.08.25 20:39:00 - [742]
 

Originally by: The Djego
Edited by: The Djego on 25/08/2009 19:35:12
I would like to see a Pest like this:

- 10% damage and 7.5% falloff per Minmatar BS level
- 100/150 Dronebay(compensating the DPS lose and give it more flexibility)
- a bit more speed/agility(5-10%)
- 10-15km more base lock range(for sniping)

So the Tempest even if it would still not be the DPS machine gains a lot more range and also more DPS at range. The extra drone bay helps in small scale and the extra lock range for sniping.

The rest I would fix direct on the weapons:

- bring T1/Faction amno in line to crystals\hybrid charges for base damage -> 10% DPS boost on short range amno
- switch EMP with Fusion(range/damage, explosive should be the main mini close range damagetype)

For Aks:

- give a 10-20% more falloff to the bigger AK tiers(increasing range by fitting bigger guns simlar to lasers\blasters), what increases damage at range if you decide to go for the bigger guns

Artis:

- reduce the ROF by 25%
- increase the damage by 40%(damage boost and more alpha)
- doulbe clip size across the board
- increase tracking to be between beams\rails since the it has the shortest optimal and should be able to relay on a tracking\alpha advantage -> make alphas that count and screw smaller ships





See my post above this one - I think your boosts would make blaster boats even more irrelevant. Give some stats with your proposed changes and see where that would fit your proposed Tempest with other BS.

I agree with your ammo changes.

I agree with the AC changes.

Your artillery changes would be game breaking. Way too much damage and range - and for sniping a capless weapon system IS a big deal.

- Increase clip size - yes.
- Increase alpha - to the point it does more dps than rails but less than beams.
- Rate of fire - do not change.
- Tracking change - agreed it should also be between rails and beams.
-

Orakkus
Minmatar
m3 Corp
Posted - 2009.08.25 20:40:00 - [743]
 

Edited by: Orakkus on 25/08/2009 21:00:50
Edited by: Orakkus on 25/08/2009 20:57:09
Edited by: Orakkus on 25/08/2009 20:53:41
For comparision:
Conflaguration L has a 50% range penalty, and a 0.50 modifier against tracking, a 25% cap need bonus.
Scorch L has a 50% range penalty, and a 0.75 modifier against tracking

Hail L has a 50% range penalty, a 0.50 modifier against tracking, and a 50% reduction in falloff and a -5% cap recharge rate. Conflaguration L does 10% more damage than Hail. Hail does 20% more damage than Scorch L.

In combat, (yes, I've done it) this means that a Minmatar Battleship sporting Hail will have to operate at approx. 3 to 5km (outside optimal I might add), and moving at about 50 to 60 m/s or less to have any consistant hits on target (and the target is moving at approxmately the same speed - figuring web/scram on target). The damage done (6 ACs + 1 Siege Launcher in a Tempest, Excellent, but not perfect AC skills, good Torp skills and Hammerhead IIs) tended to be equal to a Megathron's damage using Fed Navy Antimatter using Ogre IIs, and an Apoc using Amarr Navy MF with Hammerhead IIs.

However, the armor tank was approximately 103 to 105k EHP, less than either the Mega or the Apoc on typical tank settings.

I'm of the mind that once ACs/Arties are fixed, then the Tempest will come back on its own. ACs should have a base increase of ROF by 25%. Clip size stays the same. Arties should have an increase in ROF fire, but a massive increase in damage.
edit: need to have coffee earlier in the day..

Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Emptiness.
Posted - 2009.08.25 20:48:00 - [744]
 

Originally by: Omarvelous
Edited by: Omarvelous on 25/08/2009 18:52:51

Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: Omarvelous
Originally by: AstroPhobic


Instead, I'll ask you this question - what does the tempest do better than the typhoon or maelstrom?




It has more utility mid slots for destroying support ships


I care to disagree. Though it does sport an extra mid on the phoon, it's slower and less agile. The phoon can fit an entire rack of neuts along with cruise and 5 heavy drones, web, tp and point. If that doesn't sound like a support killer, I don't know what is. The tempest is slower and the 5th mid really doesn't give you much oomph except fitting another point. I'd say they're even at best.

The tempest could become the support ship killer, but it needs more speed, more agility, and autos would need some love.


OK I agree with this. Tempest needs to go a lot faster. Define 'love' for AC though.

My concern is Minmatar BS pilots asking to buff the Tempest with AC to do what a blaster boat does but better. Give me some numbers on what level of AC performance you'd want ona typical Tempest.


FOR GOD"s SAKE NO NO NO!

Where in hell you got idea we want AC do do what blasters do?

We want them to be competitive! AC now have LESS damage Basically no range advantage , no tracking advantage... just the PATHETIC no cap usage advantage! We want a real competitive place on the damage curve! See the dozen graphics in this thread.. from zero to 50 km.. AC have no spot on the graph where they are good at all!

We cannot give raw numbers because that is the WRONG way to balance things. Simple fuzzy targets must be stablished. As for example. AC on a malestrom MUST be superior to blasters or pulse lasers on a maelstrom. SIMPLE!! ACHIEVE THAT!

Fixing projectile ammo is a great start for that. Would increase damage in like 5% Then improve Falloff enough so that barrage AC ship has some damage advantage over blaster ship at some range.. BEFORE both ships dps drop into pathetic nothingness (i.e. it does not matter if you have superior DPS at a range when the enemy has 8% damage and you have 10%.. that is just you fail less at that situation)


On the tempest issue itself is different, if finding a role for this ship that typhoon and maelstrom are not superior. Agility, with easier fittings, and longer lock range would be a nice step into making a reasonable sniper. Other possibility is changing it into an ALPHA strike boat... change rof bonus into a 7% damage bonus....

Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Emptiness.
Posted - 2009.08.25 20:50:00 - [745]
 

A simple statement. While tempest with 2 damage bonus cannot outdamage APOC with ZERO damage bonus. SOMETHING IS VERY WRONG!!!!

Polinus
Caldari
Emptiness.
Posted - 2009.08.25 20:52:00 - [746]
 

Originally by: Omarvelous
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: Omarvelous
Define 'love' for AC though.

My concern is Minmatar BS pilots asking to buff the Tempest with AC to do what a blaster boat does but better. Give me some numbers on what level of AC performance you'd want ona typical Tempest.


My changes are always quite moderate, though when running through the numbers it would seem like a rather large boost is needed. I don't know where short range weapon graphs went (was it Aranis? Maybe it was seriously bored), but they depicted a pretty terrible autocannon DPS/range graph.

Anyway, a few or some combination of the following:

30-40% increase in falloff across the board to negate hit quality
Falloff scaling among tiers
EMP <-> Fusion switch
5-10% Damage increase
TE falloff modifier, TC script


I made graphs wayyy back on page 6:

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1130224&page=6

I'm still thinking the ship just needs to move faster to dicatate range.

It can stand for some extra damage from an extra turret hardpoint and maybe the 7.5% damage bonus.

It can stand for some extra falloff.

The goal would be to have a ship that excels in the 20-30km range, and has an ability to stay in that combat envelope.

I'm worried people want to boost the damage so much and keep the 2 utility slots. Then you'd have a ship with blaster boat damage - with further range - and an ability to fully tackle and neut the target. Why fly anything else?

Scorch needs to be fixed - but I'm OK with Amarr ships doing more damage and tanking harder at range - they can't fit any decent ammount of mid slot gear - they're limited to EM/therm - they can't effectively fit 1-2 neuts - and they are slow.

I'm also ok with blaster boats doing more damage and tanking harder <20km. They take a beating just getting into range - they eat up a crap load of cap just getting into range - they're pitifully slow for their small engagement range.

See where I'm coming from? I not opposed to a Minmatar boost - I'm opposed to a boost that will ruin game balance though. If the Temepst tackles, neuts, and shoots (the pinnacle of a pirate BS) - it can't also be a beast at dps and tank. Something's gotta give for balance.

You want gank and tank BS? Fly the Typhoon. A sniper? The Maelstrom. A utility ship great for piracy? The Tempest.


No one is asking anything even remotely CLOSE to the overpowered changes you requesT!


Your ideas would increase its damage MASSIVELY!!! The most absurd request by us are not even HALF of what you propose!! So why in hell you standign against people that are asking even less than you?

AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2009.08.25 21:10:00 - [747]
 

Originally by: Omarvelous

It can stand for some extra damage from an extra turret hardpoint and maybe the 7.5% damage bonus.


This is a much much larger boost than anything I suggested. Another 12.5% DPS from the bonus and another 16.7% from the extra turret.

Quote:
The goal would be to have a ship that excels in the 20-30km range, and has an ability to stay in that combat envelope.


Which is fine, but it needs to have decent damage in this envelope. Currently, it does not.

Quote:
I'm worried people want to boost the damage so much and keep the 2 utility slots. Then you'd have a ship with blaster boat damage - with further range - and an ability to fully tackle and neut the target. Why fly anything else?


I'm not sure where you get this conception from. The damage difference between blasters and autos are immense. Not to mention if AC boats tried to be the new blaster boats - they don't have the EHP/tanks to manage it. Even the mael which sports a giant active tank isn't very useful - it has the mobility of a crippled whale.

Quote:
Scorch needs to be fixed - but I'm OK with Amarr ships doing more damage and tanking harder at range - they can't fit any decent ammount of mid slot gear - they're limited to EM/therm - they can't effectively fit 1-2 neuts - and they are slow.


Most of the proposed fixes have autos doing less damage at all ranges, so again not seeing any issues. It should also be kept in mind that lasers can change crystals in under a second and never reload, it balances out their lack of damage selection.


Quote:
See where I'm coming from? I not opposed to a Minmatar boost - I'm opposed to a boost that will ruin game balance though. If the Temepst tackles, neuts, and shoots (the pinnacle of a pirate BS) - it can't also be a beast at dps and tank. Something's gotta give for balance.


Yes, I understand your concerns, though I must point out that you used tempest and tank in the same sentence, the tempest has inarguably the worst tank out of all the battleships. Even if ACs got a large whack with the boosthammer, it would be a glass cannon - something that I believe it says in the description. I don't have any issues with it being a good solo ship, because battleships aren't made for solo. Minmatar is supposed to be small gang. It still has tons of fundamental issues such as low lock range, poor sensor strength, poor HP, and confused slots.

Quote:
You want gank and tank BS? Fly the Typhoon. A sniper? The Maelstrom. A utility ship great for piracy? The Tempest.


Which is fine with me, but the utility ship is the typhoon and piracy is split between the phoon and mael. This comes from personal experience.

Seriously Bored
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.08.25 21:42:00 - [748]
 

Edited by: Seriously Bored on 25/08/2009 21:45:27
Originally by: Omarvelous
Your stats are difficult for me to compare without a fitted ship. Assume you have 2x damage mods comparing ships. I think your statement of engaging a Mega outside of 15km holds true even now. Blaster Megas aren't too effective beyond 15km outside of its non-bonus drones.


The reason is any time anyone does a DPS comparison with fitted ships, someone complains "you used an unrealistic fit!" Without fittings, it offers a good base comparison of the ships' damage. In any case, if each ship had 2x damage mods, the relative damage would stay exactly the same.

Also, about engaging a mega: If it could melt a Tempest before inside 15KM, and it can melt a Tempest after inside 15KM, that's balanced, right? The Tempest then only gains an edge against the Apocalypse, where it falls totally underneath its damage curve now.

Originally by: Omarvelous

- I think you're asking for too much dps on the Tempest. I still think an extra turret hardpoint would be enough - maybe a change to 7.5% damage bonus.
- Increase speed and agility so it can dictate combat range more effectively.
- Increase AC falloff.


Actually, adding a 7th turret is a more extreme change (not to mention that CCP refuses to remodel a ship to add a turret). A 7th turret on the Tempest would be a 16.7% increase in damage, where a 7.5% Damage bonus is a 12.5% increase. And of course I'd be fine with more agility :)

As for the ammo, you got me. Phased Plasma would work well against Amarr T2 resists, provided they aren't plugging that hole. You won't be getting far with Barrage, however. I'll leave it to someone else to graph whether that currently makes up for the massive disparity in damage, however.

EDIT: Seems Astro did the math as well while I was typing that. Whoops!

The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2009.08.25 21:47:00 - [749]
 

Edited by: The Djego on 25/08/2009 22:13:05
Originally by: Omarvelous
Originally by: The Djego

stuff



See my post above this one - I think your boosts would make blaster boats even more irrelevant. Give some stats with your proposed changes and see where that would fit your proposed Tempest with other BS.

I agree with your ammo changes.

I agree with the AC changes.

Your artillery changes would be game breaking. Way too much damage and range - and for sniping a capless weapon system IS a big deal.

- Increase clip size - yes.
- Increase alpha - to the point it does more dps than rails but less than beams.
- Rate of fire - do not change.
- Tracking change - agreed it should also be between rails and beams.
-


First off, I fly mostly blaster ships. I feel both are lacking some major points(blasters since QR and aks\artis for a lot longer) but still I would like to boost blasters\projektiels a bit instead of nerfing lasers(I adimit I got a 40 M pure amarr char to Cool). Fixing blaster PVP would be another topic and I mostly blame the to weak web(yes even if it could need a bit more DPS) since it is the main force that helps to put your EFT DPS actualy on the target and keep it in range for solo PVP. If you like to play the throwaway DPS dealer in gangs or the RR BS game they are fine, but still this are not the reasons you put 2 years of SP into them like I did.

For Artis, well atm you end up with the lowest optimal range(around 152km)+ Falloff, Tremor falloff is around 44km, with a 37.5% bonus this would be 60.5km. So atm we got 152+44 = 196km where you do around 120.5 DPS(taking 38% here for the falloff penalty). With the change you would do the same damage(+ around 10%, since it donīt affects T2 amno) at 212.5km.

Thats around 127.5 DPS at 212.5km in total(including the alpha change), also the Pest would be able to lock this fare with 2 sensor boosters(since lock range is also kind of limited for it atm). Alpha at 152km would raise from 3278 to around 5752 with Tremor(10% Damage bonus), while the ROF would drop by 50%(Arti/Pest change).

Basic damage at range atm(useing common fleet fits here, 2 damage mods on all but the rokh):

Pest: 152+44 317 DPS 3278 alpha
Mega: 183+30 351 DPS 1874 alpha
Apoc: 212+25 357 DPS 2613 alpha
Rokh: 224+30 321 DPS 1688 alpha(3 damagemod fitting)

Pest new: 152+60.5 335 DPS 5752 alpha
Donīt be suprised about the DPS number since you lose a bit by converting 5% damage and 5% rof into 10% damage before you applay the 10% damage boost from the artis.

So the advantage will be alpha and dps\alpha mix at 150km ranges, while still lose out at the 180km+ ranges vs both rails and beams but not this hard as it is today. Also with the huge alpha it becomes again the superior anti support sniper.

I can understand the reason you donīt like the ROF change but it is a change to the better, not to the worse. Long ROF + small clips work better(a lot if you figure in the bigger clip size). Huge alpha is usefull in fleets and things like insta poping ships from 150km+ in low sec. It gives the ship\weapon a better performance vs rails\beams + adding some cases where it would be superior to use them.

Orakkus
Minmatar
m3 Corp
Posted - 2009.08.25 22:29:00 - [750]
 

Alright, here's what I'd do in specific.

First off, increase T1 ammo damage to match equivelent Hybrid and Crystal damage (currently its 10% below these). This would translate through to Faction ammo, though not Tech 2 ammo.

Autocannons would have the following changes done:

- Their base ROF changed from 7.88 to 6.698. This will do several things with the addition of the ammo damage increase. The change would put Projectile DPS between Pulse Lasers (as the low side at 25.22 DPS) and Hybrid Blasters (at the high side with 29.42 DPS) and would be at 27.18 DPS. This would make Autocannons competative against other weapon systems, while not being overpowered as Minmatar would still have to fight in falloff and have the problems with reloading using the current clip size.

Artillery
- Their base ROF fire would be increased to about 42 or 43 from 23.63, while the damage modifier would be doubled to about 14.2x. This would bring back alpha strikes as a viable tool. While in optimal, the Arties will be slightly better over Railguns and Beam weapons, they will still have excellent DPS and have the advantage of being able to hit seperate targets more often.

When these changes, coupled with the ships as they currently stand, it should bring back all three Minmatar ships inline with Amarr, Gallente, and Caldari Battleships without overpowering them, and still retaining some individuality.



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